Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - ARSON? FIRE DEATH TOLL RISING, LOOTERS ROAM, POLITICOS POINT FINGERS

Episode Date: January 13, 2025

At least 24 people are dead, and dozens remain unaccounted for as fires fueled by severe drought conditions and strong Santa Ana winds continue to burn across Southern California. Thousands of firefighters are still battling blazes across 45 square miles in Los Angeles County. The Palisades Fire in Pacific Palisades is the largest, spanning 24,000 acres. Thousands of homes and buildings have been destroyed, and the fire is only 11% contained. The Eaton Fire in Altadena has burned more than 14,000 acres and is 27% contained, while the Hurst Fire near Sylmar is 89% contained after burning nearly 800 acres. The Kenneth Fire has burned 1,025 acres and is fully contained. More than 105,000 people remain under mandatory evacuation orders, and another 87,000 are under evacuation warnings. The cause of the fires remains under investigation. Joining Nancy Grace today:  Allison Agsten - Witnessed looters as she was evacuating; Inaugural Director of USC’s Annenberg Center for Climate Journalism and Communications Center; Bill Walker - Fire Chief, City of Bedford, TX; Former Fire Chief in Santa Monica, CA  Dr. Bethany Marshall – Author: “Deal Breaker,”  featured in hit show: “Paris in Love” on Peacock https://www.drbethanymarshall.com/ , Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, X: @DrBethanyLive Nicolle Brock – Firefighter, EMT, and Arson Expert Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth) and Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School Courtney Friel - Anchor / Reporter at KTLA in Los Angeles; X & Instagram: @courtneyfriel See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Arson? With the fire death toll rising, looters roaming, politicians pointing the fingers, how do the wildfires start? If this was arson, that equals murder charges.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. At least 80,000 people displaced by raging fires as evacuees learned their homes burned to the ground. 80,000 and rising. You can't turn on the TV or look at your iPad without seeing more people suffering. And we're hearing a lot about A-list celebrities holed up at Chateau Marmont and beyond ordering wine, champagne, expensive gourmet food, and even Ozempic. What about the other 79,000 evacuated that have nowhere to go? Nowhere to go.

All of their possessions gone, much less the fatalities. Take a listen to LA County Sheriff Robert Luna. We started a search and rescue operation out in the Eaton area where in the first day of this operation, grid searching, we searched approximately 364 properties in the Altadena area. We have confirmed 14 deaths, and that is in our specific LA County jurisdiction 11 at the Eaton fire and three in our portion or our jurisdiction in the Palisades fire and that death toll is rising why joining me an all-star panel to make sense of what we are learning as we go to air straight

out to Courtney Friel anchor reporter KTLA KTLA in LA. Courtney, thank you for being with us. Courtney, it's hard to imagine all of these fires starting simultaneously in various geographic areas. What's happening right now? Nancy, at one point, there were seven fires at one time, and I've been working the past six days non-stop around the clock at ktla and this is the most devastating nightmare any of us have covered the two main fires that we're focusing on of course the palisades fire 24 000 acres burned 5300 structures only 13 percent contained the eaton fire over in altadena and pasadena is uh 14 000 acres with 1400 structures burned but sadly as you mentioned death and 24

lives have been lost but the pacific palisades is just decimated. There's nothing left. There's maybe 20% of the homes here and there still around. But those people aren't able to even go back and live there anytime soon because there's no electricity or internet or gas or water. And it's just unprecedented what's happened out here and so tragic. Again, Courtney Friel, thank you for being with us from KTLA. Explain to me, you're mentioning multiple fires happening. It's very hard for those that have not dealt with arson and those of us that have dealt with arson cases to understand how so many different fires could have started practically simultaneously. Yeah, I understand that a lot of people are saying, oh, this must be arson.

And in the Kenneth fire, there was an arrest that was made. I can only tell you from our perspective what KTLA is covering. We probably spent five minutes on that because right now we are focused on telling the stories of the people who have lost their homes when people can get back in and the firefighting efforts which of course hundreds and hundreds of firefighters from all over the country now are trying to put these out there's going to be a time to blame everyone of course and this is this story is going to have so many tangents i mean we're going to be talking about the insurance issues. How about how no one can find a place to live because there's price gouging going on with all of the short-term rentals.

It's just mind-boggling, to be honest. It really is. Guys, take a listen to CrimeOnline.com. Dave Mack. The death toll for the Southern California fires is up to 24. With dozens more missing, cadaver dogs are now being brought in to locate human remains. And Los Angeles County Sheriff Robert Luna has warned the death toll will likely continue to rise. Straight out to renowned medical examiner Dr. Kendall Crowns joining us.

Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County and esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU, Dr. Kendall Crowns. In cases like this, the COD causes of death can be many, many different things. We could have smoke inhalation. We could have someone dying, literally burning to death. We could have a home being destroyed and timber falling on the person. In cases like this, what is the most common COD cause of death? Usually it's carbon monoxide and toxicity or inhalation of the fire. The gases produced by the fire produce carbon monoxide and usually people succumb to the carbon monoxide

prior to being burned. But sometimes if the fire is fast enough, what you'll see is a combination of carbon monoxide and thermal burns. When you say thermal burns, what do you mean? When an individual, the house catches on fire, they catch on fire, their clothing catches on fire, they get burns all over their skin and body, and then they succumb to the burns that they've received. Guys, take a listen to L.A. County Fire Chief Anthony Maroney. The Eaton Fire is now estimated to be 14,117 acres with 27% containment. We know that over 7,000 structures are damaged or destroyed

and we have 3,155 firefighting personnel assigned to the incident. That regards the Eaton fire but what about Palisades? Take a look to LA County Fire Chief Kristen Crowley. Palisades Fire. Air and ground crews worked tirelessly overnight with favorable wind conditions to prevent further spread into the Mandeville Canyon area. The fire is currently at 23,707 acres with 4,720 personnel that are assigned. There are still active fires that are burning within the Palisades area, making it extremely, extremely dangerous for the public. There's no power, there's no water, there's broken gas lines, and we have unstable structures. Canine search teams have been deployed to assist with our recovery efforts. Again, joining me, an all-star

panel. To Courtney Friel, you have discussed the displacement and evacuation of so many thousands of people. What is the working theory as to how the fires started? I can tell you that I have been on the ground in Pacific Palisades and it is so dangerous right now. So that's why the residents are not being allowed back in. But I've also been with people as they've come back to their homes and none of them who have lost their homes are angry right now. They are grieving. It is traumatic. They've lost everything. They are very sad. Now, I know people, I have a friend who actually saved his house with a garden hose. He is very upset because he feels with the water situation and didn't see any firefighters for 12

hours and tried to get through to 911 that there should have been more help. I hear you, Courtney. I hear you. Courtney Friel joining us from KTLA regarding the cause of the fire. What we think tonight. There's so many theories, but what do we know? Listen. neighborhoods who lost property. This firestorm is the big one in magnitude. Hurricane-force winds are usually accompanied by rainstorms, but these are hurricane-force winds that are combined with extremely dry drought conditions. To provide context, at 1020 p.m. a.m. yesterday, the Palisades fire was at 10 acres. Twelve minutes later, it was at 200 acres. The cause of the fire is unknown at this time. If it turns out that this was an arson fire, any death that relates from an arson fire is considered a murder and the LASD

investigates those types of crimes. Just what I'm getting at. Dave Mack joining me, investigative reporter that has covered numerous fires, including wildfires. Dave Mack, right now the cause of the fire they are saying is unknown. But I want you to listen to this, Dave Mack, right now the cause of the fire they are saying is unknown. But I want you to listen to this, Dave Mack and Courtney Friel. Listen. We did have a short period where we had a low flow state on a very small amount of our hydrants. We had an extreme amount of draw, multiple fire engines, pouring water at the same time. We also did have a loss of power which impacted our pressure. That was for a very temporary amount of time that first evening and we have no impacts at this time.

Really Dave Matt because that's not what we are hearing on the ground. He just said and that was the Pasadena County Fire Chief that we did have a loss of power and impacted pressure for a very temporary amount of time the first evening. There are hundreds of reports of the fire hydrants being dry. Dave, Matt, what about it? Nancy, the water, and I hate to make this all political, but the water that should be going into the reserves to help in Southern California has actually been diverted and is being sent into the ocean in some cases to save some small fish. We have fire hydrants that are actually dry. There is no water. We're not talking no pressure.

We're talking dry fire hydrants, Nancy. With homes burning, people screaming, they go to open up a fire hydrant, nothing comes out. That's because there's no water for them to get because it's been diverted elsewhere. Dry fire hydrants. Joining me, firefighter, arson expert, Nicole Brock. Dry fire hydrants, Nicole, have you ever seen that? Absolutely, I have. you ever seen that? Absolutely. I have.

We've have done that. We've seen that before. The issue in this situation is there's a reservoir. It holds 117 million gallons of water. That reservoir has been out of commission due to a tear in the cover that is to protect the water. So because it was out of commission, it was unable to feed the water to the hydrant. This is why those hydrants...

Hold on. Nicole, you are telling me in one of the most arid areas of our country, knowing that there are Santa Ana winds, knowing that this is fire season, there was a tear in the cover on 117 million gallon reservoir. So we couldn't get at the water. That's a simple yes, no, Nicole. That's correct.

You're absolutely correct. It's closed for repairs. Okay. Did nobody know about the tear in the cover? Yes. That's why it was closed for repairs. Absolutely. So it was closed because they knew about the tear in the cover, but it hadn't been fixed. Well, guess what? There are other allegations as to why there's no water to fight the fires. Listen.

Governor, you got a second? Governor, Governor, I live here, Governor. Governor Gavin Newsom is forced to answer questions about why he slashed funding for the wildfire and forest resilience by over $100 million six months before the Palisades fire begins. Cutting the funding of seven programs focused on preventing and battling potential wildfires in the state, coupled with the water system used by the state to fight the wildfires, struggled and in some places failed under the strain. Rumors of arson and equipment failure arise as investigators search for what started

the Southern California fires. Arson at the top of many lists as to why some of these fires have started. There are many other theories, but it's hard to ignore eyewitnesses and confessions. Guys, take a listen to L.A. City Fire Chief Kristen Crowley. Our firefighters, the community's firefighters, LAFD firefighters need to be properly funded. We need to be supported so that they can do their jobs. Did they fail you? That is our job. And I tell you, that's why I'm here. So let's get us what we need so our firefighters can do their jobs. Did they fail you? Yes. You're hearing the fire chief courtesy of KTTV Fox 11 there in LA. Straight back out to Courtney Friel joining us from KTLA

investigative reporter and anchor. Courtney, thank you for being with us. We just heard the Fire Chief saying that the firefighters need support to do their jobs. Is it true

that there were moves to cut the fire department's money? That is absolutely true. And we have had Councilwoman Tracy Parks on our show several times talking about how she has been fighting for funding for the firefighters. And they have been asking for years and years. The residents have been asking for more funding. They're basically fighting fires with equipment from 10 years ago. And as we know, the fires have just, everything has just gotten so much worse. And we're coming off having these two crazy wet winters and all this brush grew back. And then we've had an eight month drought, no rain. So it is just fuel everywhere, areas that haven't burned in 50 years it's the worst case scenario and so now they need all these resources and they don't have it i mean they are calling

people from all across the country to help assist and and that's great and we are seeing with the wind conditions get better they've been able to do these air drops and have been successful in trying to get some containment and protecting some homes. But we've got another wind event coming Tuesday through Wednesday with high, powerful winds. So who knows what's going to happen there? Joining me from L.A. is Dr. Bethany Marshall, renowned psychoanalyst, author of Deal Breaker. You can see her on Peacock and she's at DrBethanyMarshall.com. Dr. Bethany Marshall, when you hear the budget to fight fires was intentionally cut by millions and millions of dollars. And that the fire hydrants are empty.

And that water tankers reportedly are empty. What's your response? Nancy, when I hear that, I think of one of my patients, an older male with cancer who all of a sudden gets an evacuation warning. He walks out his front door and huge flames are roaring down the street in Altadena. This is a cancer patient. He doesn't even have time to grab his medication. He grabs his dog and he drives away. I think of a colleague of mine who was working at the Gay and Lesbian Center downtown, did not hear the evacuation warning.

He walks to the window and there are flames roaring outside the building. That's what I think about. These people are traumatized. They are terrorized, they almost lost their lives, while officials are dithering about fish and about money and things that are inconsequential. In a sense, it reminds me of, you know, Nero fiddling while Rome is burning. There's not a true sense of how fragile life is, fragile our structures are, fragile our communities are, that we really have to take care of ourselves and we need to prioritize danger. You know, Dr. Bethany, there's something that I and no other lawyer is allowed to do in a criminal case, and that is ask the jury to put themselves in the shoes of the victims.

Control Room, please play for me the video you were just showing. Dr. Bethany Marshall is joining us from L.A. and has seen this. Now, imagine you standing on the street watching your home burn, wondering if your neighbors, your family, your relatives could be dead. And what a horrific death, possibly the worst death, to die by fire. What if this was your home?

Joining me right now is a very special guest. Allison Agston is joining us, who evacuated, witnessed looters after this horrific event. And they're still looting right now as we go to air. There are groups of marauders Looting, right now. She is also the inaugural director of USC's Annenberg Center for Climate Journalism and Communications. Ms. Axson, thank you for being with us. Thank you for having me today, Nancy. those viewers, which I hope is practically everybody, that have never been part of a fire, never seen what it can do, never had to evacuate, never been a firefighter like our guest, Nicole, never picked through the pieces of a fire like myself after an arson event. Tell me about your evacuation and what you witnessed, Allison you know nancy it came on

really really quick we received some notifications about a fire i came upstairs i looked out my window and i couldn't believe what i saw massive flames because i'm on a hillside it's as if they're literally uh it's almost as if they're growing over you, getting ready to consume you. I have a house full of six people. I take care of my disabled mom and my father who has stage four cancer. And I have two kids and a bunch of pets. And I rounded everybody up and said, get your most important things. We got to get out of here. We did our best in short order with whatever ability we had to get out of the house. By the time it was ready to go, I don't know, maybe we had 30 minutes or so, there were police on my property shouting, you don't have a second longer, get your

things, go get your family, go get everybody, go, go, go. And we had our gate propped open because we wanted the incredible heroic fire people to be able to get in to save our property. And the police said, you have to remove that. There are looters. There are looters around here, and they're going to get into your home. So we removed the prop from our gate, and as we were backing out, we saw a car full of men pull up to my neighbor's house. And they all got up and ran over to my neighbor's door. And we're looking in the windows. And I was so confused at first.

I thought, maybe those are helpers. Maybe they're here to help my neighbors. And they just don't know them. And I realized those were not helpers at all. Those were people who saw an opportunity. And my husband said to the police, hey, those people don't live here. Go get those people. They don't, those people don't live here.

And I think of all the aspects of this fire that might have been what rattled my children the most was the vulnerability of leaving during a fire and then seeing this sort of thing happen, seeing people ready to take advantage of you. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The wildfire is out of control right now. Potential arson under investigation after eyewitnesses claim they observed individuals starting fires in the midst of all of this. The death count is rising. Looters are marauding the area. Joining me right now is special guest Allison Extxton, who evacuated with her family and as she's driving away, witnesses looters closing in on property. Miss Axton, thank you

for being with us. You mentioned that you heard the news. It all happened so quickly that there was a fire. How did you hear the news and what went through your mind? First thing that happened is my phone started blowing up many, many text messages. Again, I have a big family at my house. It's around dinner time. And I thought, what could possibly be going on? And it was others, my friends looking out for me. Because that's how we're going to get through this, everybody.

It's our group chats up for our street. It's our friends. We're going to get through this through our. It's our group chats up for our street. It's our friends. We're going to get through this through our community. And people said, there's a fire in your area. And I thought, oh, okay. I mean, there's fires everywhere. And then I looked up on television and sure enough, there was a mountain immediately behind my home.

And that's when I ran upstairs to see if I could see anything and saw flames everywhere and realized that we didn't really have a second longer we needed to get our things together we were then receiving alerts those you know terrible screeching alerts really really were Allison yes I cannot imagine looking out and seeing flames and knowing I had to leave right then. I mean, the baby albums, the christening gowns, the everything. And I woke up in the night thinking about, well, I was dreaming about it, and that woke me up. What would I do? I've got my 93-year-old mother at one end of the house that I have to help walk and I have my children at my end of the house and pets and what did you do how did you get them all out you know

what Nancy you go into producer mode you do the thing that you do every day with work except you're doing it at your home I'm saying to my biggest son okay you help your grandparents they have trouble you get them to the car. Once they're in the car, here's the directions to where they're going to. Okay, when you get back in, you're going to come and you're going to take this suitcase that's at the bottom of the stairs. And I'm just unpacking and directing and packing and directing. And you're just keeping your cool because it's all you can do if you want your family

to survive. It's the only thing you can do. You don't have a choice. You can't lose your mind. Your family will die. So you get everybody mobilized. You start leaving. And I want to hear the part about where you're leaving your children see men jumping out of cars coming to loot. It wasn't even just the men jumping out of cars. There was more than that. There was the smoke was so intense at this time that even walking through our house, we had to have

like a t-shirt over our face. They're choking with smoke and fires on the hill. And now we've got police on our property saying, we're pulling you out of the house. You don't have a second longer. And we see these, you know, men and a car pull out and they are jumping out of the car simultaneously, running up to my neighbor's house, looking inside and the street, it is throbbing with people. There are people riding up on scooters that have masks on in groups, and it just feels really, really uneasy. The level of chaos is so high that I don't know that you'd have to have a large, very large police presence to keep something like that under control, and I think the police probably have no clue who some of these people are. They don't know if they're a resident.

They don't know if they're a criminal. So you just, you feel, it feels like chaos to the nth degree. And Nancy, when people hear these stories, this makes them not want to evacuate. So people want to stay and defend their homes if they don't see the flames right in their backyard because they're afraid of this situation happening. And it's so unfortunate. There is a special place in hell for the looters and, of course, any arsonists that may have started this fire. The looting is taking over at a time like this. Guys, before I address the looting, joining me right now is a special guest, Bill Walker, joining me, Fire Chief, City of Bedford, former Fire Chief, Santa Monica. Bill Walker, thank you so much for joining us. Bill, I've prosecuted a lot of felony cases, but one of the hardest cases to prove and investigate are arson cases, which I didn't ask for it, but became a specialty, sadly, for me.

Chief, I want to talk to you about the possibility. Well, it's not just a possibility anymore. I'm hearing a lot about the cause of these fires. What do you make of the drastic slash in the fire budget? Well, clearly the fire chief put in writing that she felt the budget cuts would affect their ability to prepare and respond to the fires. So, you know, what that actual impact is, I think is something that they'll get to as they, as they evaluate it, but in the larger context, fire department budgets have been, you know, not increased and the call volume is up so much higher

and the amount of these large fires is up so much that you know i think it's very fair when the fire chief says we do not have the resources to keep up with the problems that we're faced with not all the people there but some of those guys lit that fire and they're actually uh the trees caught fire and then the palms are catching fire. So civilians are now lighting fires. Stanford neuroscientist and podcaster Andrew Huberman claims he saw people starting a fire firsthand in Santa Monica near Crescent Bay Park. New fires broke out in the overnight hours in the Hollywood Hills and Studio City, forcing responders to divide what they had to attack the other fires. Huberman posted video on X and writing that people are lighting fires in otherwise non-burning urban areas of L.A. The posted footage shows a group of men standing around a large fire while a nearby tree is set ablaze.

One man is seen filming the incident on his phone, but none of the footage actually shows how the fire started or who did it. You are hearing from the Twitter page at Heberman Labs. Joining me, special guest Allison Acton, who had to evacuate and witnessed looters jumping out of their cars. And now joining us, Fire Chief Bill Walker, who fought fires in Santa Monica, the former chief in Santa Monica do you hear that chief while the Santa Ana winds are taking their toll as Courtney Friel told us earlier making it almost impossible to dump water from above from the sky because the winds would take the water away from the fire. You've got that going on. And now reports of eyewitnesses and even confessions of people starting the fires, Chief.

Yeah, it's hard to believe. And it makes you sick to your stomach to hear it. And, you know, seeing the impact, I tell you, for the people that are there on the ground that are looking people in the eye that lost everything they have in their homes, there's nothing like the reality of that. I don't understand how anyone could be doing that. I just, I don't understand it. And it's heartbreaking to see. And you know, Chief Walker, not only have you fought many, many fires, you've risen to the ranks of chief in multiple jurisdictions, but you have been a witness on the stand under oath. And these arsonists may think it's just sport starting a fire, but people are dead chief. And that equals in my mind, felony murder charges.

You start a fire, that's a felony and a death occurs. You are up the creek without a paddle, and I am not going to be happy until these people, these perps, are apprehended and charged to the max, Chief. Well, we need accountability for people's actions, and I think that that covers a lot of things in our world today, and it would be nice to see some accountability for these people. I guess nobody on the panel is going to say it, but does that accountability reach to the governor and the mayor? And listen, I don't have a political dog in the fight. You can pay me to run for office to deny funds for firefighters and for water to fight these fires, the mayor off to some joy trip in Ghana.

She made a promise, didn't she? This is a yes, no, Courtney Friel, that she would not travel out of the country. Didn't she say that? Yeah, it is very bizarre that she left when we were telling everyone for days that this life threatening storm was coming. And yet she still went but you know what there's a change.org petition with i think almost a hundred thousand signatures right now to try to get her to step down i don't know if you've seen that meme that everyone here in california is posting it's a picture of gavin newsom and karen bass standing together with a sign that says fire us. So that is 100%

a conversation that is being had here among residents. And you know what, Courtney Friel, as you stated at the get go, all that's a political cesspool. There's really no way to put it. I'll let the voters of California deal with that. What I know how to do is investigate and try an arson case. Hey, Chief, Chief Bill Walker with us, former chief in Santa Monica, has fought a lot of fires. Chief, you joined us after Allison Axton told what happened to her. Allison, could you describe for the chief what you and your family endured, starting with all your phone blowing up with texts? Sure. I was sitting in the living room with my family and I couldn't figure out what was going on. My phone was blowing up. Looked down and saw that there was a fire at the park immediately above my home and ran upstairs, looked out the window, saw flames through my bedroom window,

and I went and grabbed my husband and said to him quietly, we need to make a plan to get our family out of this house right now. I don't think we have much time. And so we did. We packed up our two kids, three dogs, bearded dragon, and my two disabled elderly parents. We got a few things out, and we were amongst the lucky ones. We've experienced so much community, which is something that I want to

really emphasize. There's a lot of great things going on in Los Angeles right now. People coming together, willing to shelter, help out, what do you need? There's a lot of that, but there's the nefarious activity too. There's the guys riding up the scooters on our streets uh one of my neighbors had a man confront him who had a gun in his waistband um cars with people driving up who don't live on the small dead end street trying to trying to take advantage i can hardly take in what you're saying um dr bethany uh, joining us, by the way, Chief, from L.A., Dr. Bethany, the trauma of seeing a fire is bad enough. I can still remember every time I went through an arson scene. I'll never forget it.

Everything, nothing, nothing left, and people dead. But Dr. Bethany, the added insult of looters showing up looking at fire victims with guns in their hands? I don't understand the mindset, Dr. Bethany. Nancy, it's unimaginable. And talk about a term in my field is complex trauma. When one trauma is layered on another and layered on another, Nancy, I think there are many people in our city who are latently homicidal, latently arsonist, and latently larcenist. They want to steal.

And when a fire is set ablaze, all of a sudden it brings these criminals out of the woodwork. And when we think of arson, Nancy, it's a compulsion. People, men and women, because women do it too, who want to commit arson, they think and think and think about it. They're very sneaky. They try to gain proximity to fires. They try to become firefighters. And once a fire is set, it's very exciting to them. So they'll go out and set more. So our city is at risk from arsonists. It's at risk from looters. Hold on, Bethany. I'm going to go to the chief on what you just said, Chief Walker, former fire chief in Santa Monica. When you hear that, that people set these fires out of some sort of excitement, you have pulled the dead bodies out of homes,

out of fire scenes. How do you respond to something like that? Well, you know, she's telling the truth. You know, unfortunately, it really is an illness, a mental illness that people have. And it's terrible. And it's been that way for a long time. And you're exactly right. People try to get into the fire service.

They try and get close to it. And we've had some terrible examples of that over the years. And it makes you just feel, if it's even possible, feel worse, worse to know that sometimes these people get close to you and they're doing those things. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Chief Bill Walker, I know you're sitting down right now.

You may need to lay down when you hear this. Listen. When I was out there in the Malibu area, I saw a gentleman that looked like a firefighter, and I asked him if he was okay because he was sitting down. I didn't realize we had him in handcuffs. We were turning him over to LAPD because he was dressed like a fireman, and he was not.

He just got caught burglarizing a home. There were three individuals in a vehicle. They were stopped. They were where they weren't supposed to be. One had on fire jacket and a fire hat, and he was additionally arrested for impersonating a firefighter. We have people who will go to all ends to be able to do what it is they want to do to exploit the victims of this tragedy. Chief Walker, looters, criminals wearing fire outfits, wearing firefighter outfits. Can you believe that? I feel sick.

Well, I mean, these folks are, I don't like the term, but they're so much sophisticated in their approach sometimes. It's organized, it's thoughtful, and they go out there to do bad things. And, you know, I was in Santa Monica when we had civil unrest, and that was well-coordinated and planned, and it was terrible. And it's just mind-blowing to see people that that's what they do. And, you know, for people who don't think that way, it's really hard for me and for most people like you to wrap our heads around it, but it's out there, and it seems to be becoming more and more prevalent. Imagine the panic of being trapped in a room, in a home that's getting smokier and smokier.

And you can feel and hear the blaze closing in and there's no way out. The fires raging, looters closing in, politicians blaming each other and pointing the fingers. What good is that? Guys, I want to go to Dr. Kendall Crowns joining us, renowned chief medical examiner. Dr. Kendall Crowns, what is it like to die of smoke inhalation? Granted, I mean, I don't know. Is it worse to die of smoke inhalation or to actually burn alive? I don't know. But the smoke inhalation, in my experience, seems to be a larger COD cause of death when fires occur. What is that like?

So when the black smoke is filling your home, it's very hot. You're having to breathe it in because the oxygen is disappearing, basically being replaced by this black smoke. It's hot. It burns your throat. It burns your eyes. You're, of course, experiencing the heat. As you get more and more carbon monoxide coming in, you become more and more confused. You begin getting severe headaches. You start vomiting profusely, and then eventually you'll pass out. Now, of course, if the fire is also coming in at the same time, that will burn, and that causes extreme pain as well on top of the

smoke inhalation. I'm just thinking what these victims have lived through. I'm thinking of the victims that didn't live, their families. To Nicole Brock joining us, firefighter, arson expert, have you ever had to retrieve a dead body out of a fire scene? Absolutely. I've done that several times

and it's probably one of the most gruesome sites you've ever seen. It's very disheartening. It's a very hard thing to do, especially when you have family members standing around. Those people have family and it's a very disheartening situation. Very hard. Very hard for us as firefighters because we see those members and we see those dead bodies as our own family members. So it does leave a lasting impression on us equally. And Nicole Brock, what is your message to your fellow firefighters tonight? Stay strong. This is a brutal situation that you're up against.

It's one that's going to leave a lasting impression. I've been so impressed with how LA Fire Department handled their employees, their members. I look to you all all the time. I always use LA Fire Department as a reference guide because your fire chief, your fire administration does such a great job with assisting you all on the mental health side, on just supporting you as a department. They value you. I know that you're up against a long, hard climb. And all I say to you tonight is to stay resilient, stay brave, continue to do the work that you signed up for. And everyone, everyone has so much respect for what you're doing. I pray for you each night.

We all pray for you each night, each day, each moment. Continue, please, to stay resilient. If you can give to help the victims of the California wildfires, here is a way to do it. Dial the Red Cross, 800-675-5799. Repeat, 800-675-5799. 5799 or text REDCROSS to 90999 or try UMCOR U-M

as in Methodist C-O-R providing immediate relief like food, essential supplies and support for volunteer efforts. Tonight, we, and support for volunteer efforts. Tonight, we remember and pray for American heroes, the California firefighters,

who have given and are giving their all to fight the fires and to save lives. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.