Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - AUTISTIC BOY SEBASTIAN ROGERS MISSING: NANCY QUESTIONS MOM & STEPDAD

Episode Date: March 25, 2024

Autistic teen Sebastian Rogers is still missing. The Sheriff's Department announced they are scaling back the search for Rogers and moving into more of an investigation. That didn't stop hundreds of volunteers searching in several different areas of Tennessee over the weekend. Saturday volunteers gathered at The Rockland Recreation Area which is about seven miles from Sebastian Rogers' neighborhood. As news spread that Sebastian's Dad, Seth Rogers, was in the area with the Cajun Navy, excited volunteers flocked to the area. Today Sebastian's mother and stepfather join Nancy to weigh in on finding the missing teen. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Katie Proudfoot- Sebastian’s Mother  Chris Proudfoot- Sebastian’s Stepfather  Dr. Jorey L. Krawczyn  – Police Psychologist, Adjunct Faculty with Saint Leo University; Research Consultant with Blue Wall Institute, Author: Operation S.O.S. – Practical Recommendations to Help “Stop Officer Suicide” Brian Trascher - Vice President of the United Cajun Navy Courtney Lasky, M.Ed., LBA, BCBA –  Board-certified Behavior Analyst, Autism Expert, and Chief Clinical Officer with Little Stars Therapy Services Lauren Conlin - Investigative Journalist, Host of The Outlier Podcast, and also Host of "Corruption: What Happened to Grant Solomon; X- @Conlin_Lauren/ Instagram- @LaurenEmilyConlin/YouTube- @LaurenConlin4   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. February 26, Monday morning, 6 a.m. From everything we can tell, that is the moment that Sebastian's mom and stepdad realize he's gone. For just one moment, imagine that. You go in your child's room where you find your child every single school day morning and you wake them up, but at 6 a.m. he's not there. Can you imagine what must have gone through their minds? First of all, I want you to hear what his bio mom, Katie Proudfoot, says. Listen. Sebastian Rogers' mother, Katie Proudfoot, spoke with WSMV

and explained exactly what happened the morning she found her son missing. When I woke him up for school, he wasn't there. I took a second and walked through the house looking for him in case he'd gotten up and was trying to get breakfast or something because he did that sometimes. About three minutes in, give or take, I was on the phone with my husband. I said, I can't find him. He said, what do you mean you can't find him? I said, he's not in the house. Can't find him. Where is he? And in the last days, we learned that the official law enforcement search is actually scaling back. This as TikTokers and YouTubers are flooding the area conducting their own searches.

Listen to Eric Craddock, Chief Deputy, Sumner County Sheriffs. Really wanted to come to the community and ask for your help. We need you to search your properties every day, morning and night. If there's a shed or a crawl space or up under your mobile home or a tarp that's in your yard, check it every morning and check it every night. Look for any details that something has been disturbed. If there's a shirt that was there today that wasn't there yesterday, notify us. You can really help us by searching your own property twice a day. Like I said, we're operating under the assumption that Sebastian walked off

and we really need your help to ensure that he is brought home safely. We are trying to determine what happened when this young boy, an autistic young boy, seemingly walks out of his own home in the middle of the night, we think, barefoot. How did that happen? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111. We've read a lot online. We've seen a lot of theories, a lot of speculation, but let's start with what we know to be true. Joining me right now, an all-star panel, but first I'm going to go to two special guests joining us, Katie and Chris Proudfoot. This is Sebastian's biological mother and his stepfather who were in their home

with Sebastian when he goes missing. To both of the Proudfoots, thank you for being with us. Yes, ma'am. Thank you for being with us. I want to go straight back to when Sebastian goes missing. Ms. Proudfoot, I understand that the day before, which would have been Sunday, if I've got the information correct, that you guys went out, you went to dinner, you went to somewhere, I believe you said BJ's, where he had a quote, colossal popcorn. Yes, ma'am. Then you came home that night and around 9 p.m. you tell Sebastian to go to bed. He says, okay, he goes to his room. Is that correct? Yes, ma'am. That night, I understand from previous statements you've made that you went to bed around midnight. Is that correct? It is. And to you, Mr. Proudfoot, Chris Proudfoot, did you also go to bed at midnight or before or after?

No, ma'am. We went to bed around the same time because we were on the phone together. Please excuse any of my questions. I'm simply trying to find out more about that night. Do you two sleep in the same bedroom? He wasn't actually in the home at all that weekend. Christopher wasn't.

Ah, you were not home. No, ma'am. Okay, so where were you, Mr. Proudfoot? I was in Memphis, Tennessee. How far away is that? Three hours and 37 minutes from doorstep to doorstep. And what were you doing in Memphis? Working.

Where do you work? I'm currently working or was working at the St. Jude Children's Hospital Construction Project. Yes, I'm very familiar with St. Jude's. You said you were working there. Are you no longer working there? Right now, that's up in the air. Well, you've been gone ever since Sebastian went missing, so I understand. When you are home, do you two sleep in the same bedroom? Yes, ma'am. Is this a three-bedroom home? Yes, ma'am. Where is your room as it relates to Sebastian's room? It's on the opposite end of the house. The master bedroom's on one side, and the other two bedrooms are on the other side of the house.

Okay, so your master bedroom is on one side of the house, and Sebastian's room is on the other side of the house. Is that correct? Yes, ma'am. Okay. Now, you have a third bedroom that I believe you keep for your other daughter. Is that correct? Yes, ma'am.

Is that Faith? Is your other daughter named Faith? Yes, ma'am. Okay. So where is Faith's bedroom as it relates to Sebastian's bedroom? It's in the back side of the house. Sebastian's bedroom is on the front side of the house. Okay. So his bedroom is away from Faith's bedroom and away from your master bedroom. Is that correct? Yes, ma'am.

Is Sebastian's room on a top floor or a floor level, a ground level? We have a ranch-style house. It's a one-and-a-half story, so everything is flat, and then you have the bonus room above the garage. Okay. So his is on ground floor, right? Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am.

Okay. That morning, was there any sign of a break-in through a window, a front door, a back door, a sliding glass door, anything at all? No, ma'am. Okay. No sign of a break-in through a window, a front door, a back door, sliding glass door, anything at all? No, ma'am. Okay. No sign of forced entry. Was anything taken from the home at all? Not that we could find anything. We couldn't find anything missing. I want to circle back to Sebastian's shoes regarding if anything was missing. Do you have a burglar alarm? No, ma'am. Do you have a ring doorbell cam? No, ma'am. Okay. Have the two of you taken a polygraph? I have. I have not. Would you be willing to? I've offered and volunteered on many occasions to take a polygraph and I was told

directly by law enforcement because of my whereabouts. I did not need one. I understand. Ms. Proudfoot, did you pass your polygraph? I did. Those questions out of the way. Was Faith in the home when Sebastian went missing? No, ma'am. Does anyone else have a key to your home beside your immediate family? No.

No, ma'am. That night, Ms. Proudfoot, at midnight when you went to bed, what did you do until midnight? I had been reading a chapter that I needed to, and I had been talking to my husband on the phone. I was falling asleep on him, so that's when he told me it was around midnight. He told me, let's go ahead and put the dogs up and go to bed. And that's what I did. I got up, put the dogs where they sleep. And then I myself went to bed. Where do they sleep? They have a big pen. A pen. Is it inside or outside? Inside. Inside. That reminds me of another question. Do you guys have a motion sensor light or lights on the outside of your house?

Yes, we do have lights on the outside of our house. Did they activate that night? They're not motion censored. We have lights, but they're not motion censored. Were they on that night? No, ma'am. Okay. Were they on that night so the lights were out the whole night?

Yes, ma'am. We don't typically turn the floodlights on. Were there any lights outside the house on at all? Just my little solar lights that we have in the garden. There's two lights on the side of the house above the garage that are on at all times. Oh, yeah, those are on. Oh, there's a light above the garage that's on at all times? There's two, yes ma'am. Okay, so those lights were on? Yes ma'am. Okay, the reason

I'm asking is because I heard you say earlier, Mr. Proudfoot, that your neighbors have been very, very forthcoming with their ring camera info. Yes ma'am. And I was trying to determine if any lights were on, what, if anything, they may have caught. But I understand from your previous interviews that nothing of any evidentiary value was caught. And also, in another statement you gave, I understand that the video of the two flashlights, and I'm saying that with air quotas, that's not exactly what that was at all. We now don't believe that two flashlights were observed around your home. Is that correct?

Yes. You're very correct. Okay. Question regarding your vehicles. Ms. Proffitt, what make and model do you drive? I drive an Infiniti SUV. Year? 2017. And, sir, what do you drive?

I drive a, uh, diesel truck, Chevrolet. Year? Yeah, I don't remember off the top of my head. I think it's a 2021, I think. So, your Infiniti SUV was parked in the garage or outside the garage that night, Ms. Proudfoot? In the garage. In the garage. And Mr. Proudfoot, your vehicle was on location in Memphis. Is that correct? Correct. Okay. So there's only one car at the home. Is that right? There was actually a work vehicle in the driveway at the time as well, but it hasn't moved. We can't just,

we can't give out that information because we don't have permission from her work. I don't understand that. What? About the make and model of the vehicle. I have a work van that was also parked in the driveway. Why is that? If it's out in the driveway where people can see it, why is that privileged information? We just don't have permission from her company to divulge that information. Have you asked? No, ma'am, we have not. Nobody's asked us that question, to be honest with you. Okay, so you have a work van. Question to you, Ms. Proudfoot, what do you do for a living? I am an installation technician. That night, was the work van blocking your driveway? Could someone go in

and out of your driveway? The van is parked at the back of my driveway, so someone can pull in, yes. Got it. Do you park your Infiniti SUV in the garage or outside the garage? In the garage. In the garage. Do you have an automatic garage door? With the clicker. Right. Do you leave that up or down at night? Down. Could anybody lift it up? Like, is there an on and off button outside, or do you have to know a code or have the clicker to open it? You'd have to know the code or have the clicker. Does Sebastian know the code? Not to the garage door, but to the man doors. Not to the garage door, but to the house doors? The regular door, yes. So is there a code to get in your home or do you use a regular key? There's a code. And he knows that code? Yes,

ma'am. Question. I'm just trying to figure out how he would have gotten out or if somebody came into the home. Could they have gotten through the garage door? No, unless they know the code or had the clicker, which they did not. Do you lock your doors at night? Yes, ma'am. Could he have left on his own through those doors? He could, yes, ma'am. But I heard in another interview where Mr. Proudfoot said he was not a, quote, wanderer.

He didn't wander around. He never left the home before on his own. Is that right? Correct. We haven't had issues with him running or taking off in the past. Okay. Let me ask you a couple of questions regarding the doors. Do you have any home surveillance, anything at all that would have given us an idea or a clue if the door had been opened or not, or a window? Not directly from our house. Well, then from where? That's what we were hoping that neighborhood ring cameras and may have picked something up. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I want to go back to that night. You said you were up till midnight. You were reading something.

What were you reading? A chapter for school. A chapter for school. Are you in school? I was, yes, ma'am. I've since dropped my classes for the time. What are you studying? Business administration.

Where do you go to school? DeVry. So that night you go to bed at midnight after you've been talking to Mr. Proffitt on the phone. You put the dogs away in a cage, a crate inside the home and you go to bed. Did you check on Sebastian at that time? I did not. Okay. Do you normally? Not typically. Since he's gotten older, I've not been checking on him as frequently throughout the night because normally he's, you know, he's good to go in his room once he goes to bed. Earlier, you had stated you heard a noise in his room before you went to bed. What time was that? Around 10 o'clock. 10 p.m. What did it sound like? Just a thud. A thud. You stated that you said, look, I don't care what you're doing in there. Go to bed. Is that right?

I was on the couch, which is near his room. And I said, Bubba, did you fall out of the bed? And he said, no, ma'am. And I said, well, whatever you're doing in there, knock it off and go to sleep. So you heard his voice at 10 p.m.? Yes, ma'am. Do you have any idea what the sound actually was? I do not, no. If he were to go out his window, what would he step on?

Mulch and bushes. Got it. Has he ever gone out the window before? No, ma'am. Is his home, is his room on the front of the house or the back of the house? Front. Front. Do any of your neighbors' ring cams point toward your house? Could they pick that up? They do, but it's so dark that they can only see it. After it gets so dark at night, they can only see certain things. I thought there were the two lights on. On the opposite side of the house. Okay.

Can we talk about Sebastian's shoes? Why are you convinced Sebastian left without shoes on? Or are you? Well, the reason that that came about is because all of his shoes are accounted for inside the house still. Are you positive? I'm positive. How do you know what clothes he was wearing? The clothes that we described are the ones I saw him in when I when he went to bed. That morning you woke up at six o'clock is that the normal time you wake up? Yes ma'am. Are you a heavy sleeper? Off and on. Do you take any medication

at night that would make you sleep? No, ma'am. But you heard nothing? I did not, no. So we know he is alive and well at 10 p.m. at 6 a.m. He's gone. You say he's never left before. Is that right? Correct. He's never run off before. And I, could I confirm where was his bio dad at the time he went missing? I believe he was at work in Nashville. Had there been any family argument or altercation prior to him going missing? No, ma'am. And Mr. Proutfitt, when did you leave town? Early February. So you had been gone for days before he went missing. Is that correct? Correct, ma'am.

Had you visited home since you left? From when I initially left? Yes. Yes, ma'am. I came home February 26th, the morning I was told that he was missing. From the time that you left for the job in Memphis to February 26th, did you visit the home? Yes, ma'am. When? I was home. I can't give exact dates. Law enforcement has told me not to provide exact dates, but I had been home multiple times prior to February. And then I left early

February and then didn't come back until February 26th. So you were not home from the time you left early February until Feb 26th. Is that right? Correct, ma'am. Where were you living in Memphis? I have an RV trailer that I stay in at an RV park. RV park. Okay.

Following back up on that morning, you searched the home as pride foot. Then you get in your vehicle and you start searching. Yes. Did Sebastian know how to drive? No, ma'am. Was your car in the same location when you woke up that morning as it was the night before? Yes, ma'am. Has your car been searched by police? Multiple times. Yes, ma'am. Have scent dogs looked at your car? Yes, ma'am. So your car's in the same place. You get in the car. You start looking in the neighborhood for him. Is that right? Yes, ma'am. Then you call Mr. Proudfoot, right? I believe I was already on the phone with him at that point. Okay. Question.

Who called 911? I did. You did? Yes, ma'am. What time? Without looking at a call log, it can't be the exact time, but on or about 620. And had you guys been talking on the phone before 6 a.m., or did you initially call Mr. Proffitt at the time you realized Sebastian was gone? I called him when I realized Sebastian was gone.

Have you guys been out looking for Sebastian? Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. We were given information that you guys have left the home. Is that true? Yes, ma'am. Why? I'm going back to work.

You're going back to work. What about you, Ms. Proudfoot? I'm not going back to work. Not yet, at least. Did you leave the home also, Ms. Proudfoot? Yes, ma'am. Why? To accompany my husband going back to work, and then I'm coming back. Okay. When will you be back? Do you know yet? No, not yet.

Are you concerned about being away while the search is ongoing? Absolutely, I am. Then why are you going? Because my son could be anywhere and we're looking everywhere and anywhere. I've got a question for you. Yes, ma'am. I want to find out about Mr. Proudfoot hitting Sebastian with a belt. That was actually several years ago, and it was—

To Mr. Proudfoot. To Mr. Proudfoot. To Mr. Proudfoot. Yes, ma'am. Mr. Proudfoot, what happened? Oh, I'm sorry. I misunderstood. I thought you were asking me, Katie. Sebastian had gotten in trouble. He got caught lying. And I had asked him, I said, hey, you know, you've got to have a punishment for this. He says, yes, sir. And I said, okay.

So I gave him a swat with a belt on his buttocks on the outside of his clothes, one swat. What did he lie about? Honestly, I don't remember at the time, but it was probably something dealing with school because that's the majority where his issues lie. Did he have other issues at school? Some behavioral stuff, but nothing too crazy. What kind of behavioral stuff? He has a hard time.

He's awkwardly socially blending in with students. So it's a little. He's trying to figure out how to do it, but respecting people's space, he gets a little too close, and then kids don't really accept that too much, so it kind of causes an issue, but he'll not stop, and he continues on, so then it causes an issue,

and instead of being honest about it he'll lie like no i didn't okay sebastian we're lying about doing work was that the first time was that the first time you had ever hit him with a belt yes ma'am the one and only time actually when was this? Years ago, ma'am. Any idea how many? Three, ten, one? Probably at least three years ago. I don't understand how that turned into a CPS or Child Protective Services complaint. How were they alerted that you hit him with a belt? That did not turn into a cps service call there were other cps reports right were they regarding your other child there is one in regards to my daughter

that i know of out in new mexico with my ex-wife and myself what happened um at the time uh my ex-wife had fled to new mexico with my. We were going through a custody and a divorce case at that time. And at the time, when I called and tried to check in on my daughter, I could never reach my ex-wife at that time. So a welfare check was requested. Law enforcement told me to call CPS if I had concerns. So I called CPS. Law enforcement did make a welfare call and that was it. Then how does that turn into a CPS complaint against you? I have no idea, ma'am. There's a lot of misinformation out there right now in regards to my New Mexico case that actually has no relevance to the Sebastian case. Then was there even a CPS complaint against you?

Not that I am aware of. And my attorney and myself are well educated on my case. And there's nothing that we know of. Was there a TRO taken out against you regarding your daughter? Not a TRO, but a TPO. A temporary protective order. Why was that taken out? So in regards to that case, my ex-wife had a TPO put against her in Tennessee at the time. When we went to court, that got dissolved. I was ordered to hand my daughter back over to my ex-wife

at the time. She gets in a truck. She flights to New Mexico. Two days later, she files one in retaliation. Is it still in place? No, ma'am. That was dropped within, I think, two weeks of it being put in place. I've got a question about the belt incident. You're telling me that was the only time that you ever hit Sebastian with a belt? Yes, ma'am. And you're also telling me that did not make it to CPS? No, ma'am, that did not. Question. Yes, ma'am. Regarding Faith's furniture. Yes, ma'am. A few days after Sebastian goes missing, did you replace furniture in Faith's room? No, ma'am, I have not replaced any furniture in my daughter's room. Is there any new furniture

in the home? Yes, ma'am. There's a bed that was given to me and it's currently in my garage. Has anything been taken out of the home? No, ma'am. I was curious about a statement that Ms. Proudfoot made earlier that canine dogs hit on the barn around the home and near a retention pond. Did that happen? I'm not sure about the barn, but the retention pond, yes. Because law enforcement says the dogs did not hit. There's been a... But Ms. Proudfoot says they did hit around the retention pond. So there's been a lot of

miscommunication in regards to what is and what is not to help clear that up. Law enforcement has actually spoken directly with me, showed me a few things. What I can tell you is there from day one, there was five dogs that started the scent for the search. And then after that, from the next eight days out from that, there have been dogs from all over the country that have come in and done searches and had scent hits in various locations. But I would say a certain percentage of them tend to go toward the same spot, which would have been a retention pond. So the law enforcement dogs did not hit on the retention pond. Is that what you're saying? No, I'm saying they did. There was at least three that I know for a fact that did hit on the retention pond. And the pond has been drained, correct? And there was nothing there?

Yes, ma'am. They have walked it, drained it, and there's nothing. The retention pond was only knee-deep anyways. On one occasion, Mr. Proudfoot, you stated that you and Mrs. Proudfoot have been, quote, vetted and cleared a foul play. That was stated on Chronicles of Olivia. Is that true? What do you mean by that? So after working with law enforcement of all agencies, they have actually told us that there is no foul play, no nefarious issues. We've been cleared of all wrongdoing. We are working extremely cooperative with all law enforcement agencies at any point in time that they've called, come to the house, anything. Was Sebastian angry or upset before he disappeared?

No, ma'am. Not to my knowledge. What is your theory about where is Sebastian? I wish I knew where he was, to be honest. Your theory, your theory. I think it's possible that someone has my son. Why? Because I feel like if he had been close to the house or had walked off that we would found him by now with as many people as we had searching. Have you checked his social media? He doesn't have social media. Have you checked his phone?

His phone has been thoroughly checked, yes, ma'am. Have you handed your phones to police, both of you? Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am, we have. Has police searched all of your devices, your laptop, your iPad, everything? Everything, yes, ma'am. Other than you, Ms. Proudfoot, who is the last person that saw or heard Sebastian alive the Sunday before he went missing? Two of his aunts, a cousin, and the staff where we had dinner. And that was at BJ's the night

before or the bowling alley? So BJ's and then we went to the bowling alley and then after the bowling alley we went to dinner before coming home. I want to follow up again on the dogs hitting. Earlier Ms. Proffitt had stated the dogs hit around the house, the barn and at the retention pond. Is that correct? I don't know about the barn but I do know that they did track to the pond, yes. Did the dogs also hit around the house? Yes, ma'am. On the outside of the house? Yes, ma'am. Were they scent dogs or cadaver dogs? They brought in both cadaver and tracking dogs. Which dog hit, a cadaver dog or a scent dog? Scent dog.

It's all been scent dogs that have hit. The cadaver dogs have not hit on anything that we know of. What do you believe Sebastian was wearing when he disappeared? And would that have been what he slept in? Yes. So the clothes, the black sweatpants with the white stripes and the long-sleeved black shirt, that is what he went to bed in. And the reason that I believe he was still wearing those clothes is because when we searched, I did not find those clothes in the house.

So I have to assume that that's what he was still wearing. I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you. Did you say that's what he wore when he went to bed? Yes, ma'am. Joining us right now, in addition to Katie Proudfoot and Chris Proudfoot, the bio mom and stepdad of Sebastian, an all star panel. First to Brian Trasher joining us, vice president of the Cajun Navy, who has joined the search. Brian, thank you for being with us. Who asked you to join the search?

Well, we had deployed a team up to Nashville, Tennessee last week in response to the missing college student Riley Strain. We stayed up there until he was found. While we were in the area, we had a lot of people reaching out to us on social media saying that there was a young boy who had been missing for several weeks that was only about 20 miles away from where we were. So we talked to a few people, got some information and decided to deploy part of our team that was already up there to Summit County to investigate and see what we could do to help out. You went on your own, were you asked to join?

We were asked to join. I'm not sure specifically who some of our people talk to, but we always, we get requests all the time and we'll reach out. We'll try to get either a family member or a close friend of the family, just so we know we're talking to people connected to the family. And somebody had reached out and asked us to join since we already had assets so close to Sumner County. Tell me what you have been doing, Brian Trasher. Everyone with me, the VP of the Cajun Navy who has joined in the search. Brian, tell me what you guys have been doing. So we've had our own canine team who is already participating in the search for Riley Strain

up there searching around. We've talked with the lead investigator with Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, Agent Simmons. We've talked a lot with him and trying to coordinate efforts because we always try to coordinate with law enforcement to make sure we're not getting in the way duplicating efforts or putting out any conflicting information. You know what, Mr. Trasher, let me just cut the chase here. Isn't it true that this weekend, pursuant to your search, that cadaver dogs hit in an area that had been closed off because of a prior hurricane and it is on federal property? Bones and other items were found at that time. I found that very odd as it would relate to Sebastian.

Even if it was Sebastian, his body would not have been skeletonized at this time. Can you tell me now that what was found over the weekend is not connected to Sebastian? Yes, no. Not connected to Sebastian. That's correct. That hit was not connected to Sebastian. Joining me also in addition to Brian Trasher, who has been leading the Cajun Navy in its search for Sebastian. Hold on, Brian. Other than those hits, have there been any other dog hits in and around the home or elsewhere? Not from our canine team. I'm very concerned, Brian, as you can imagine, because LA law enforcement has stated there were no K-9 hits outside the home, which I find very, very disturbing.

Because if he had gone outside particularly barefoot, there would definitely have been a scent trail. Now, we're hearing from the Proudfoots that there was a hit around that retention pond. How far is that pond from your home, Mr. Proudfoot? Less than probably half a mile if you walk the whole path. Is it through wooded area? Would he have had to walk through the woods to get there? No, ma'am.

You can actually walk either the main road or the subdivision. So the construction site is a subdivision, a new addition that's being built, and they have a road that's going to be tied into our subdivision. So you could actually walk up that way, or you could walk to the main road and walk into it. Did Sebastian ever sleepwalk? No, ma'am. So he would have to leave the house undetected by Katie and walk all the way to that retention pond. Did the dogs follow the trail a half a mile? Yes, ma'am. They followed the trail all the way to that retention pond?

Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. That's very curious, as they are saying the dogs didn't pick anything up. Back to you, Brian Trasher. Did you guys search anywhere other than that federal property where the false positive was? Yes, no. No. Joining me is Courtney Lasky, high profile behavior analyst, autism expert, chief clinical officer with Little Starts Therapy. Courtney, thank you for being with us at this juncture.

We know Sebastian to be most likely with people he doesn't know if in fact he is still alive. How would that affect a young boy with autism? It would affect him greatly. Based on the diagnosis of autism, we know that they typically have deficits with communication, social skills, and they display some rigid and repetitive behaviors. If, in fact, he is with someone else who does not know him well, that would be entirely out of his routine. He could be engaging in behaviors that he hasn't engaged in before. He could be looking for an escape. He could be looking to get out of those aversive situations. We know that not every autistic individual will wander, but those who do wander, 36%, it's to get out of an aversive situation. It's to get away from

something that's overwhelming or overstimulating to them. Ms. Proudfoot, does he know your phone number? Can he call you if he could get access to a phone? We have gone over my phone number. I don't know that in a high stress time he would remember it, but yes, I have taught him my phone number. Okay. Was he ever allowed to go visit friends' homes? He didn't get invited, but had he been, yes, we have had playdates in the past. Would he go there on foot? No, ma'am. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me now is Lauren Conlon, investigative journalist, host of The Outlier podcast, host of Corruption, What Happened to Grant Solomon.

And you can find her at LaurenConlon.com. Lauren, thank you so much for being with us. What can you tell me about that stretch of road, if anything, between Sebastian's home and that retention pond? Well, look, Nancy, I mean, I think like everything else about this case, it is very confusing because the public hasn't heard much from the police. We haven't heard much from the Proudfoots, obviously, when it comes to that or Seth Rogers. And now I'm learning a lot here as I hear Chris Proudfoot say, OK, we can't speak about this because of law enforcement. And now with the Cajun Navy coming in,

I think a lot of us are very excited that they are going to basically canvas this road. And they are actually telling civilians to hang back. Nobody needs to search this anymore. You need to stop. You need to stop helping and let us work with law enforcement and take over. Now, I called the Sumner County Sheriff's Office yesterday because of all the misinformation going around. And I got to be honest with you, they didn't even know what was going on with this road, with the recreation search.

They were either very elusive or they were very confused. But either way, it's very concerning because the people, as well as myself, I don't live in Tennessee. I cover a lot of Tennessee. We are very concerned for Sebastian. We are very concerned. And so let me just stop you right there, Ms. Conlon. Ms. Conlon, everyone is concerned, but let me remind everyone that law enforcement is under no duty at all to tell us or anybody else, including the Proudfoots, anything. They are not representing the Proudfoots. They are representing justice and they will do what they have to do. The fact that they're not giving us a blow by blow is their business. Does it mean they're stymied? I don't know. Does it mean they know more than we think they do? I don't know the answer to that, but just because they're not

releasing an ongoing investigative file is not a concern to me. At this juncture, I am collecting facts in the best way I know how. Now, regarding that route from the Proudfoot home to the retention pond, is it your understanding, Lauren Conlon, that there were no hits by scent or cadaver dogs along that route. Correct, Nancy. It is my understanding there were no hits from the dogs. It is very confusing. It's confusing. You know, sometimes Lauren, when we try to put together a puzzle, but we're missing a few pieces and we don't know what piece we're missing. You can't put the puzzle together. We're missing, we're missing things from this puzzle. And right now I'm on a fact finding mission. I am pointing the finger at no one because I want to find

Sebastian. Absolutely. I want to go to Dr. Jory Croson joining me. And guys, again, please, Proudfoots, Trasher, Lasky, Conlon, jump in if you have a thought or you want to contradict because a lot of this is elusive. We don't know everything. To you, Jory Crosby, and joining us, former law enforcement, now faculty, St. Leo University, very well-known psychologist and author of Operation SOS. You can find them at drjorie.com. Dr. Jory, thank you for being with us. Many people have made much of the fact that when interviewed, the proud foods do not look at the camera.

They look away, they don't cry, and they don't seem upset. Now, that may or may not mean anything. People can be very upset, crying, screaming, cursing. They may show no emotion at all. They may be numb by the time interviews are happening. I'm very different. When I talk about my fiance's murder or I talk about my dad's death, I still cry, even when I swear I'm not going to. But everyone reacts differently.

What do you make of it? I can see that the numbing, that effect, it's kind of like a defense mechanism to help you process cognitively the events. Under those circumstances, it doesn't alarm me at all. I mean, I have experienced that type of trauma and stress. I've seen it in other people that I have actually interviewed as a law enforcement officer and a psychologist. Hold on just a second to Jory Crawson. Dr. Jory, you're cutting out on me. I'm going to throw this directly to Mr. and Mrs. Proudfoot.

Much has been made. I'll ask you. You very often look away, don't look at who's asking you questions. Show no emotion. Much has been made of that. And I'd like to hear your response. I'm not judging one way or the other. I'd like to hear your response. To the fact of not looking at the camera all the time is because a picture of my son is sitting beside me and I'm honestly, I'm looking at him. As far as the crying thing, I have been crying off and on nonstop for a month. Many people have asked me, why did Ms. Proudfoot not call 911 immediately? And here's your chance to answer that. Because by the time I realized my son was missing

and I called my husband at that point, I was hysterical. I was at the point where I couldn't even form words anymore and my husband is the one who remained calm enough to call them. And to be honest with you, Ms. Grace, the way we live outside of city limits, so you don't call 911 because you get routed to a dispatching hub who asks what's your location and then they route you to another dispatcher to talk to to give this story i cut all of that out and i called straight to the sheriff's department

because they have jurisdiction of where we live so sorry that i decided to bypass a few steps and go straight to the source where they responded within 10 minutes of the phone call being made. Ms. Proudfoot, that evening, were you drinking? No, ma'am. Had you used any type of drug at all, even OTC, over the counter? No, ma'am. And you had no argument with Sebastian that night? No, ma'am. And you had no argument with Sebastian that night? No, ma'am. You stated you put the dogs away into a crate before you went to bed. Is the crate located near the exit, near a

door? No, ma'am. Would the dogs have barked if there had been an intruder or if Sebastian had left? The dogs don't typically bark at me and Sebastian because they're used to us. Even if we get up, we come around, they don't typically bark. Strangers, they do tend to bark, at least for a minute or two to get attention. But no, ma'am, they don't typically market Sebastian and myself or Christopher when he's home. What kind of dogs are they? Morkeys. Question, where is their crate located? In the area near my son room. Over by the kitchen. In your son's, okay, hold on. No, son. Is it outside your son's room? No, ma'am, not Sebastian's room.

Son's room. Son, yeah, yes, ma'am. The son room, and that's not near the door? No, ma'am. Not near the front door? It's near my back door, but not any of the other doors. Yes, from what I've seen the layout of the home, it is near the back door,

and they would have heard someone coming in and out that back door, correct? Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. No barking. Do you have a chime or anything on your doors that would alert you to the door opening? No, ma'am. Ms. Grace, could I jump in for something? Yes, please. And I want to follow up with a question regarding Ms. Proudfoot's polygraph, but please Lauren, jump in. Everybody on the panel, now is the time to ask. Proudfoot's polygraph. But please, Lauren, jump in. Everybody on the panel, now is the time to ask the Proudfoots any question that may shed light on what has happened to Sebastian. We are not in a judging arena. We are in a fact-finding arena. We can then assimilate the facts and make deductions. Please jump in.

Lauren Conlon is joining me. You can find her at Lauren Emily Conlon. Go ahead. Yes, thank you. And now this might be for Brian as well. Yesterday, when the dogs hit and everybody's going crazy, YouTubers, Internet, TikTokers, and we figure out it's not Sebastian and police are not involved. The TBI is not involved. Did you call the Proudfoots and let them know that this was not Sebastian?

Did you tell them ahead of time that you were searching these areas? Did they know what you were doing or was this specifically just through Seth Rogers? Yeah, so Seth Rogers is Sebastian's biological father, correct? Yes. Yeah, so he was there. And as Ms. Grace alluded to earlier, it would not have been typical or possibly even probable that he could have skeletonized after only a few weeks. So I'm not sure about the Proudfoots, but his father definitely did know. I also wanted to echo what Ms. Nancy said earlier about the police. One of the reasons we got called in,

there was a lot of social media personalities reaching out to us, kind of complaining that they didn't feel like the police were doing enough uh but really it's it's just what uh miss nancy said it's that they're not under obligation to give daily or every other day updates they are doing an investigation we have been in very close contact with tbi and i can tell everybody with 100 certainty they are on top of it they are not letting their foot off the gas at all on the search for sebastian or trying to find out uh what happened to him the the youtubers and tick tockers that do live stream probably do the most fun we appreciate the attention that they bring to things but when they when you do a live stream you don't have any control over what gets

seen by potentially the entire world um so we wouldn't. So we can't tell people what not to do. They have free speech. It's their own accounts they're using. It's not helpful to do live streams during searches like that. If you want to do it, do a video that you could potentially edit later so that we cut down on the amount of misinformation. That's why social media is not necessarily your house. We go in and do search and rescue.

You have to trust the process like we do. We trust law enforcement is going to have this wrapped up probably very soon. Brian, however, I want to make sure that you are not encouraging citizen sleuths to stop looking. Because I've had many, many cases where we put out the warning and they actually spot a missing person. I mean, I only have to point to Gabby Petito, whose remains were found in dispersed camping way out West by a citizen who had heard about the case. So, you know, yeah, sometimes their information is wrong, but there is no way in H-E-L-L that I would ask them to stop. We're not, no, we don't. I know that's not where you're headed. No, double l that i would ask them to stop we're not no i know that's

not where you're headed no no we don't want to stop a matter of fact it was two citizen sleuths that found riley string's bank card uh out by the the bank of the cumberland river in nashville so like i said they do provide a service my only thought suggestion was maybe not doing live stream maybe just video and then you can edit and post later. Just a suggestion. Hey guys, I don't want to see anything edited. I want to see the whole thing. No edits, no airbrushing, the real deal. But that's just me. I want to go back to Katie Proudfoot. This is Sebastian's biological mother, Ms. Proudfoot. What questions were you asked during your polygraph? I was asked if I knew where my son was. I was asked if I hurt him.

I was asked if I had hurt someone, among a few other questions. And, Mr. Proudfoot, you have volunteered to take a poly? Yes, ma'am. If I were to set up a poly for you, would you take it? Name the place and time, ma'am. I'll be there. And you're headed back to Memphis right now. Are you in your RV right now? I am in my RV. We are not disclosing our current location just because of safety reasons

due to the YouTubers, the Facebookers out there that have sent some very heinous, threatening information and things of that nature, threatened to be outside of our house, all kinds of nasty things. So we're not disclosing our location at this time, unless you're law enforcement or you need to know. Ms. Proudfoot, is that one of the reasons you left the home? One of them, yes, ma'am. Question to you guys, when police came in and processed your home, did they look with, for instance, luminol? Did they check? What did they do when they searched your home?

They thoroughly searched my home with many different things. They removed some things for the dogs to hold the scent. And for Sebastian's DNA, I know that they used thermal night vision. Thank you. And I don't know exactly all of the tools that they use, but I do know that multiple different searches were done on my home by many different people, detectives, sheriffsiffs and a few others I wouldn't swear that the forensics folks showed up or not because there were so many folks in and out of the house then it was just hi I'm so-and-so along force and I'm so-and-so

law enforcement okay every time they said we need to look please do. Does Sebastian have a hardwood floor or a carpeted floor? In his bedroom. Carpet. Did they remove any carpeting? No, ma'am. Do you feel confident they searched his bathroom? They did. Yes, ma'am, they did. When you state that they removed items for the scent dogs, what did they take? Clothing, a blanket that he used like every day, and a few other items of his, toiletries, like his brush. Lauren Conlon joining us, investigative journalist. Lauren, again, thank you for being with us. And earlier you were hearing sound from WSMV4. I understand you have another question. Oh, I mean, I guess I didn't quite

get the clarity I wanted in the sense that did the Proudfoots know that this search was going on with the Cajun Navy? Were they being called? Were you guys being alerted about this? Did you hear from a YouTuber that they found something that the cadaver dog or I'm sorry, the search dog started jumping? Or, you know, were you just kind of blind to all of this just you know over in your corner doing your search no ma'am so here to to set that record straight and help the united cajun navy so somebody's got a picture out there saying that we're enjoying a dinner when we're actually out there got flyers at a dinner table because we needed to eat. My wife was on the phone with the Cajun Navy. That's how the Cajun Navy was brought in. And we talked

to the president of the United Cajun Navy. He put us in touch with their team that was here locally in Nashville. Then that young lady reached back out to us, gave us some more information. We gave her some more details. Then they said they would start a search but we also had them get in direct contact with the tbi agent as well as sundry county's sheriff's department we provided all that information they reached out to them got some information they pushed outside of the areas that had been searched already conducted a search somehow or another they linked up with the bio father who supposedly got a tip from somewhere whether or not it was credible or not we don't know but it led them to searching on federal property without permission, which is where we have been informed at some point that there was allegedly a

hit on something, but it turned out to be nothing. And they were asked to leave the property immediately or the cops are going to be called because it was trespassing based off of a tip that the bio father received. Yeah. To Brian Trasher, VP of Cajun Navy.

Let's clear it up. Isn't it true? This is on federal property that had been closed off. It was a hurricane site earlier. It was also, yes, thank you. And it was also near railroad tracks and some homeless people had been living

there. And apparently one of them had died, and we believe that is what the dogs were hitting on. Is that correct? Yeah, all of the above is correct, and we did not gain access to the property. It had already been open when we got there. I'm not sure how entry was gained, but, yeah, everything above it that you just said was correct. Guys, the search for Sebastian goes on.

If you have information, if you know or think you know anything about this beautiful, young, autistic boy, please call TBI, Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, 800-TBI-FINE. T-Tennessee, B Bureau, I, investigative, TBI-FIND. T-Tennessee, B-Bureau, I, investigative. TBI-FIND. 1-800-TBI-FIND. That's 800-824-3463. Please join us in the search for Sebastian and lift up your prayers. This boy will be found. Goodbye, friend.

This is an I Heart Podcast.