Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Baby's ashes confused with pet & moms charged with infant abuse

Episode Date: August 22, 2017

A mom learns ashes given her after her infant daughter's death were the remains of a dog. Nancy Grace talks with attorney Wendy Russell Wiener, an expert in regulatory law regarding death care, about what a family can. A teen charged with killing her newborn and burning the infant is out on bond. Reporter Art Harris, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan and psychologist Caryn Stark discuss. DailyMail.com‘s Sean Walsh and psychologist Dr. Bethany Marshall join Nancy to talk about a woman who tried to flush her newborn down a hospital toilet before abandoning him in a trash can.  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I had a stillborn baby. After two years, she realized that what she was holding onto while she was mourning wasn't her daughter, but somebody's dog. It's like a nightmare I can't wake up from. Jerrica Skye died in April 2015 and was taken to the Bauer Funeral Home in Katanning for cremation. Jennifer receiving a box with the cremains, cherishing them for the past two years. But it wasn't until this week that she actually decided to open the box and view them. And there was a metal plate in there that said, Butler Pet Cremation.

And when I seen that, I knew something was wrong. She called the funeral home immediately. They told me a mistake had been made. I was given somebody's pet, and they were given my daughter. A Pennsylvania mother now says she is living a, quote, nightmare, a nightmare she can't wake up from. After this Pennsylvania mom discovers that last week, the box she believed to be holding her daughter's remains, her baby daughter's remains, for the last two years actually contain dog remains.

I just had to let that just sink in for a moment. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. You know, when you lose a loved one, it is so traumatic. I just went through the death of my father, and I still recall when my fiance was murdered. It's something you never forget. You never really, quote, get over, although a lot of people think that you do. You just go on. You soldier on. But then to find out that the cremated remains that you have held dear are those of a dog. It's insult to injury. Joining me right now is a very special guest.

It's Wendy Russell Wiener. Her expertise is regulatory death care. She is a very well-known lawyer with Broad & Cassell, a Florida-based law firm, but she consults nationwide on issues just like this. It's a very unique niche in the practice of law. Wendy Russell-Wiener, thank you so much for being with us. Thanks for having me, Nancy. Wendy, before I get started on this poor Pennsylvania mom, I gotta ask you, how did you get in the funeral business? I started my regulatory law practice as an insurance regulatory attorney here in Florida. And at that time, part of the death care industry was

regulated by the Department of Insurance. But the regulatory scheme changed over the course of years and my practice followed the regulation to its new regulator. And now in Florida, all of death care from funeral establishment and cemetery and crematory regulation, all the way up to the regulation of pre-need contracts is all handled by one regulator. And I practiced law before that regulator on a regular basis. And over the years, my practice grew to representing clients nationwide on a consulting basis, helping them interact with their regulators and see their way through issues. Wendy, I got to tell you something. This has been my experience with funeral homes. When my dad passed away, our little funeral home, um, in Macon, you know, it was a small town in Georgia where we grew up, could not have been nicer to my mom. And it was a horrible time. We did not, I think I told you about this story when I first met you. It was a horrible time. We did not expect my dad to pass away.

And it was just a shock and a blow to all of us. And they could not have been kinder. That was followed by the also unexpected death of my husband's dad and mom. And same story with them. It's a really difficult time in people's lives while the loss of your loved one is so raw. And you immediately have to start dealing with a funeral home and figuring out what you're going to do with their dead body. I wish I had never even seen my dad's dead body, but I did. And you're dealing with people at a really hard time in their lives. It absolutely is one of the most difficult times

that people go through dealing with the loss of a loved one. And really, for the most part, the death care industry is a great industry. You mentioned your positive experience with the industry. And almost always, the death care industry does everything that it can to get it right. Unfortunately, there are times where mistakes are made, which results in situations like the one we're talking about now. Well, okay. Wendy, Wendy Russell Wiener with me, a specialist in regulatory death care. This has been brought to our attention when a Pennsylvania mom says she is, quote, living a nightmare she can't wake up from.

She discovers just last week the box she has held dear to her heart for the last two years that she thought was holding her baby daughter's remains I can't even imagine what could be worse than losing your child you know I've lost a fiance I've lost a parent but a child I think Wendy you just have to lay me down in front of the railroad track and just run over me if I lost one of the twins. So she loses her baby girl and is held these remains close and finds out they belong to a dog. Listen to what the mom said. This mother told me she's had to go through months and months of intensive therapy just to get over the loss of her daughter. But after two years, she realized that what she was holding on to while she was mourning wasn't her daughter, but somebody's dog. It's like a nightmare I can't wake up from. I had a stillborn baby.

Jerrica Skye died in April 2015 and was taken to the Bauer Funeral Home in Katanning for cremation. Jennifer receiving a box with the cremains, cherishing them for the past two years. But it wasn't until this week that she actually decided to open the box and view them and there was a metal plate in there and I read it and it said Butler Pet cremation and when I seen that I knew something was wrong,

scared and confused. She called the funeral home immediately. They told me that a mistake had been made and I was given somebody's pet and they were going to give it to me. she called the funeral home immediately. They told me that a mistake had been made and I was given somebody's pet and they were given my daughter. It's humiliating. I'm horrified.

As many times I sat and I cried and I held that urn and cried myself to sleep grieving for my daughter and it was somebody's dog. Bauer Funeral Home says they contract with the Thompson Miller Crematory, which made the mistake. Both funeral home owners speaking with us about the error. Beau, the mistake is mine. Quite honestly, I made a mistake.

I had two identical containers. I just simply put the wrong label on the wrong container. I wanted the public to know how deeply saddened I am that this happened and that I'm so sorry for the family. And it was a mistake. It was human error. And I'm just so thankful we were able to rectify it extremely quickly. Jennifer received the correct cremains this week, which luckily the dog owner had kept intact. But she's still not satisfied after all that's happened. Do you accept their apology? No.

How can I? How do you make a mistake like that? Now Jennifer and her husband tell me they're still uncertain about whether what they have is really their daughter. They tell me they're thinking about possible DNA testing and considering legal action. Wendy, dare you hear Jennifer Daly telling WTAE that her daughter, baby Jerica, was cremated in April of 2015 at this Bauer Funeral Home. The funeral home gave the grieving mom a white box a bag was inside supposedly containing the

remains i never heard the word cremains is that a new word wendy it's new to me no it's just an industry term uh used to describe cremated remains it's very it's very. She says she held on to the cremains for two years, not daring to look inside the box even once because of the heartbreak of looking at the ashes and to think that was her baby girl. So recently, her husband suggested they spread the ashes somewhere that they felt would hold some meaning for their family. Wendy Russell Wiener, can you imagine the mom was too upset for two years to even look at the remains? She could not look at the cremated remains, Wendy. Absolutely not unusual.

And where mistakes such as this occur when a crematory or a funeral establishment provides the incorrect cremated remains to a family, and then they don't check for a period of time. Oftentimes, that makes even a very difficult situation more difficult because at that point, when so much time has passed, often it's impossible to get the correct cremated remains into the right hand. So here we know Daly says, and I'm talking about the mother, Jennifer Daly, holds on to the cremains two years, not having the heart to look at them. The husband suggests they finally spread them. He encourages her to try to move forward. And this is her quote, Wendy. I finally worked up the nerve to look into her urn and look at my baby girl's ashes.

And there was a metal plate. And I read it. And it said, Butler Pet Cremation. Oh, dear Lord in heaven, Wendy Russell Wiener, I would have fallen over dead because if you see that, you're like, well, then where is my daughter? Where is my daughter? If I've got a dog, if I've got something from Butler Pet Cremation, where's my daughter? Can you imagine the shock this woman had when she saw that in there, Wendy? Absolutely.

I'm sure it was extremely difficult. It's interesting because in the United States, pet cremation has become a much bigger part of the death care industry. People in the United States... Well, hold on, Wendy. Wait a minute, Wendy. Everybody in the studio here is making a face. I don't know why you're making the face

because upstairs I have a teat container of my cat, Coco, that I took in as a stray remains. And I'll never forget the day Coco, who was a boy cat, passed away. That cat helped me get through my pregnancy. I love that cat. And when I had to move to New York, just so you know this, Jackie, who looks skeptical of pet cremation, when I had to move to New York to start my job with Court TV and Johnny Cochran, the cat stayed with my now husband, David, and would routinely, as David was watching TV, just come out and bite him in the ankle and run away. And I was so happy. Okay. So I love that cat. Had the cat 18 years, 18 years. So don't scoff at pet cremation. Okay. Because I hope to

see Coco again. Go ahead, Wendy. You make exactly the point that I'm making. You illustrate it perfectly. People love their pets. Pets are part of the family. And so as the death care industry has seen a need, pet cremation has become a much bigger part of the business. It is not... Are they supposed to be in the same facility, Wendy?

Because this place has human and pet cremation in the same facility. Something about that doesn't seem right to me. Well, you pick up on something interesting. We don't know for sure that the cremations were done in the same machinery, but it's not uncommon for a death care owner operator to have both a human crematory and a pet crematory. It is unlawful in many states for pets to be crematory. But it is not unusual for pets to be cremated in a building adjacent to or even in the same building as the location for a human crematory. Okay, I'm glad to hear that. The mom, Jennifer Daly goes on, quote, they told me a mistake had been made and I was given somebody's pet and they were given my daughter.

It turned the worst thing that could possibly happen to me in my life into a thousand times worse. You know, Wendy Russell Weiner, I told you when we met about how I ended up becoming a prosecutor after the murder of my fiance. And for many, many years, I would have dreams that Keith was really actually alive and that it all just been a big hoax because he didn't want to get married. I mean, what a cruel and horrible dream. Okay. This sounds like one of those horrible dreams, except it's real. Now, Glenn Miller, the owner of the funeral home, issued a personal apology claiming the mistake is mine. Honestly, I mean, he just put it out there, said, I made a mistake. I had two identical containers. I simply put the wrong label on one. But how can that happen? And how can you, you I guess I'm trying to figure out how can you

look at ashes if it had not been for that tag in there would she have ever known she didn't have her daughter's ashes no but it is very common and is required in many, if not most states, that the disc from the cremation machinery, which is known as a retort, that the disc from the retort actually be placed inside of the... What are you calling it? A retort. How do you spell that? Retort, R-E-T-O-R-T. Okay, retort, okay.

And that's the name of the machinery that actually performs the cremation. So every time a cremation occurs, there is a little disc which is affixed to the retort that identifies certain information about the person or the pet being cremated. That disc is then placed into the actual cremated remains once the cremation process has been completed and the pulverization of any remaining bone fragments or teeth or things that were not reduced to ash during the cremation. After the pulverization process occurs,

then that disc is usually placed inside of the cremated remains, inside either a bag or inside of the urn, if the cremated remains go directly into an urn. So you're telling me that's the safeguard that the facilities use, that retort that is in with the body should identify the correct cremated remains, right? Well, the retort is the machinery. The tag that was in the cremated remains is affixed to the retort, and then it goes into the cremated remains. And that is really the best identification of the person or pet that has been cremated that a licensee or a funeral home owner-operator or a crematory owner-operator can use to determine whose cremated remains are which.

So let me understand this because you were talking in a lot of legal and technical jargon. Look, I'm just a criminal trial lawyer, Wendy Russell Wiener. Hold on, let me understand this. So you put the body through something called a retort, and there is a tag, a metal tag, affixed to or connected to some way to the body. So when the cremated remains come out, the correct tag is there. So what happened here, it sounds like is he just put the wrong

sticker on the outside of the remains. That's what I think happened. Does that sound right to you? It does. It does sound right. And as the gentleman identified with the crematory indicated, this appears to be a mistake made by the crematory operator where they affixed the wrong identification to the box. Oh, well, this is what we know. The mother says, quote, It's humiliating. I'm horrified.

As many times as I sat and cried and held that urn and cried myself to sleep, grieving for my daughter, and it was somebody's dog, the mother says. Now the mom and dad are left wondering whether a DNA test needs to be performed and if it can be performed on cremated remains, which I really don't think that it can. No. To determine whether the cremation, did you say no, it cannot? No, no. There's a pretty widely held misconception that DNA survives the cremation process, but it does not.

The science behind that. I did not think it did, Wendy. So now they don't know what to do. They don't really believe they're not sure these remains are really their little girls. They were asked, do you accept their apology? Answer? No. How can I? How do you make a mistake like that? How do you mistake a dog for a human? It's like a nightmare I can't wake up from. You know, Wendy Russell Wiener, in my line of business, people's lives were really on the line, literally, with many cases that I tried. And your line of business, people's lives are forever changed depending on the outcome of their experience. With me, Wendy Russell Wiener,

an expert in regulatory death care, an attorney with Broad and Cassell in Florida, but consulting nationwide. Our special guest today, Wendy, I guess you've heard it all, right? Probably. Probably. Well, let's pray this mother has the right remains now and the jury is out. Wendy, thank you. And now, on Crime Stories. The 18-year-old Carlisle mother accused of killing, burning, and burying her newborn baby is now out of jail while she awaits trial.

Her attorney had a short statement for reporters. I can tell you that Brooke Skylar Richardson did not kill her baby. This morning, Richardson walked into Judge Donald Oda's court where she entered a plea of not guilty to murdering her newborn child. An honor student cheerleader, varsity cheerleader, is now under suspicion for murder. Repeat, homicide. That's right. An honor student cheerleader is now suspected in the gruesome homicide of a baby, her baby. Brooke Schuyler Richardson sat demurely in court as charges were read against her, and she's already out walking free on bond. The high school girl, well, high school grad, is accused of murdering her baby girl and conveniently burying the baby in the backyard beside the barbecue pit. All right.

What's concerning me right now, other than the initial shock of giving birth to a live newborn child, according to the district attorney, and then waiting for the right chance to bury the baby in the backyard and then go about life normally as if nothing had happened is how she's going to be treated in court and the facade that she is displaying in court. That's what I'm thinking about now. Brooke Skylar Richardson appeared in Warren County Court for a pretrial conference before Judge Donald Oda II. Her trial is set to go forward in a matter of weeks. She is pled not guilty to the charges of aggravated murder, child endangerment, tampering with evidence, and gross abuse of a corpse in connection to the death of the infant child.

She's already released on 50 grand, which equals to five grand because you only put up 10 percent. And she's agreed to wear an ankle monitoring device that that's it. There is an uproar in the community and critics have accused the judge of going too easy on the cheerleader. Why is she out, Art Harris? I mean, why is the life of an infant, a newborn baby, who was born alive, according to the medical examiner, why does she walk out on a $5,000 bond? I think it's $50,000, Nancy. It is $50,000. It is $50,000.

It's $50,000. But, Art, you've been in enough bonding companies to know $50,000 equals $5,000. Yeah, you write a check, and she's home free for the moment. These are people, I guess, who are known to the community and, quote, respectable family. You left out that the baby was apparently burned and decomposed between the time they believed the child was born, May 6th or 7th, and found later in July. I did not leave it out, Art Harris. I had a funny feeling that you would fill me in.

Okay, let's go through the facts. I know I should have known you'd hone in on the most gruesome part of the case. Go ahead. I will let you explain it. Joining me also is Joe Scott Morgan, death scene investigator and renowned psychologist. Joining me out of New York, Karen Stark. Karen, I know you've got a lot to say about this,

but I want you to hear as disturbing as it is, the real facts about the discovery of the infant's body, because I think it may change your opinion. Art, please explain. So the medical examiner reported the cause of death was difficult to decide because the burning and the decomposition of the body between the time that they believed the baby was born and when she was found. But I have some ideas of how it happened. Burning the body, then burying it, Joe Morgan can tell us the problems there. But initially what shocked me, investigators were tipped off by some doctor who initially said a stillborn baby. Now, that would change things

a little bit from murder to hiding and embarrassment, I suppose. But this is not the case, apparently. So I'm curious, how can you tell the difference between a stillborn child and one that was murdered if the body has been so decomposed. You said the body was burned and decomposed. Explain. Well, the reports say that she burned the body, possibly tied whatever, and then buried it. So if it's buried that long, the remains are going to decompose from whether it's rain, whether it's moisture underground, whatever the weather is like. I don't know how far the decomposition went. Joe could probably explain that. The FBI has

something called the body farm where they test time and conditions and what happens to bodies over time. But this is what was reported. Now, the prosecutor decided not to pursue a charge which would have put her possibly, you know, made her a death penalty eligible. But now she could spend the rest of her life in prison if these charges turn out to be true. Well, this is what I know. After unearthing the baby girl's remains, experts have decided the baby had been born alive, then killed, then the baby's body burned, then buried in the backyard by the barbecue pit.

Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator, how difficult is it to actually burn a human body? Very difficult. It takes a lot of cases that I've worked over the years. People simply think that they can take a gallon of gas or lighter fluid, throw it on the body, set it afire, walk away. That doesn't happen. It takes an extended period of time to do what we refer to as render down human remains and a lot of intense heat for a protracted amount of time. The problem here is, and the problem for the defense in this case,

is that when this child's body was examined by the medical examiner, they conducted what is referred to as a float test for the lungs. That means, that means in very simple terms that this precious little angel at some point in time, right after birth had, had taken air into its lungs. The lungs had expanded into those little sacks in the lungs and the lungs are able to float. If the child had been born still, then those lungs never would have expanded and they would sink to the bottom in the tub in which they're tested. So this makes this doubly horrific in this case. Now, back to what Art had said, it does compromise the ability to find out what exactly happened. But Nancy, as

you well know, it doesn't take much to kill this innocent little child. Anything as simple as just placing their hand over this child's nose and mouth could have brought this child to an end. Now, Art Harris was right that initially the police did not charge her with murder. It was basically one of the lowest rungs of homicide. It's my understanding, and Alan Duke, check this out for me to make sure we're correct. But I understand that she has pleaded, Brooke Skyler Richardson has pled not guilty to charges of aggravated murder, child endangerment, tampering with evidence, and gross abuse of a corpse in connection to the death of the baby girl. I think she is charged with aggravated murder. Now, it's a lot different thing, and I can't put my finger on it, to Karen Stark, psychologist joining me out of

New York. I'm not arguing about right now, anyway, about whether abortion is right or wrong, okay? I'm talking about a premeditated act, Karen, giving birth to a baby, a baby girl. You know how many people in this country would give their eye teeth to get a baby girl to raise and to love and have her love them back. But that's not what Brooke Schuyler Richardson did, according to police. She killed the baby, who was born alive, with no known defects, then tried to burn the baby's body, did burn the baby's body. I mean, just that thought, Karen Stark, of putting flame to a child, a baby's body, it just is completely revolting to me. And I understand that you would feel that way,

Nancy, but I want to explain something to you that in neonaticide, which is what we're talking about, mothers who kill their children, very often it's something that happens with teenagers. And she's 18 years old. So even though we're saying she's an adult at 18, she still has enough of the adolescent type of magical thinking where she's in denial throughout the pregnancy. So it's not like she's saying I'm pregnant and everybody is talking about prenatal care. She's wishing it away and she's saying to herself, maybe I'll have a miscarriage or I'm not really pregnant. And she hides it. So she's spending a lot of time in denial, working hard to not admit to herself this

is happening to her. And when it finally does happen, she's not in a conscious state the way we would be saying, oh, I'm having a baby. I need to do something about this baby. It's still feelings of shame and embarrassment. This can't be really happening. And this baby's not real to me. the psychological state that would make somebody go ahead and not see this as a real living, precious baby that we would treasure. Let me just quote from Lego Batman.

I hate everything you just said. I know that you would. I knew that you would, but I wanted to explain to you. But I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not saying you're wrong. But what I am saying is that between her, an honor student, an honor student high school grad, in an upper-class money neighborhood in a beautiful home with a backyard brick barbecue pit and every privilege

you can have in our society. She did this to the baby. She is not insane. She just graduated as an honor student, for Pete's sake, as a varsity cheerleader heading off to college. She's not insane. Yes, she may have been embarrassed. Yes, she may have been panicked. Those are not defenses under the law. You're asking me essentially to pick between the honor student grad and the innocent baby who can barely open its eyes and counts on its mother to protect it.

Now, authorities say they know who the father is but have not divulged it. But that's really, in my mind, what you're asking me to do. And I can't pick the honor grad over the baby. I can't do that to an innocent victim because the mom is not innocent. She may have been, as you say, panicked, embarrassed, wishing it away. Those were your words, and I think they're appropriate. I think everything you said was true. But that does not equal a defense under our law. And that's correct,

which is why she's out on bail or a bond. However, it's important to understand that there is a reason why that happens, that something is going on within the 18-year-old that's making her not accept that this is a real condition, that this is a child that needs to be cared for or sent to somebody who might be able to love this baby versus someone who's ashamed and embarrassed. And it has nothing to do with the riches that she had or everything. If anything, that made it worse that she had everything going for her i disagree she was educated she had loving parents and every privilege that millions of children wish they had yes ma'am she knew there were alternatives she knew she could have an abortion she knew she

could give the baby away at a safe haven. She knew about adoption. She knew all of that, but chose to murder the baby and burn its body and bury it in the dirt. But we have to understand what conscious knowing is. Cases of neonaticide, very often when it's teenage girls or someone who's still 18, it's not a conscious, oh, I think I won't give it up for adoption. I'm going to murder it. It's much more about denial, that magical thinking that says it's not happening. Well, maybe she can deny that she's sitting in jail because that's where she's going to end up. Art Harris, you said there's a gag order.

There's a gag order. What's happening next? Well, I can tell you that the prosecutor supports the guest in a way that says she was obsessed with, quote, appearances and how things appear to the outside world and that her mother would not have wanted the area, the neighbors, friends, to know she was pregnant and had a baby. Who knows what kind of pressure was going on inside her, what kind of strange teenage hormonal thinking was happening combined with this sort of overlay.

I don't know. I'm not judging, but if that is the case. Well, what kind of topsy-turvy world am I in? I don't know. Not judging. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. You're not on the front row at the United Methodist Church, and I'm not the church leader.

We're not talking about judging or not judging. I'm going to leave that up to heaven. They can deal with judging her. What I'm talking about is a verdict that speaks the truth. And what happened? Am I the only one on this program that gives a flying fig about the baby? Have I lost my mind? Joe Scott, please throw me a bone for Pete's sake. What kind of person, what kind of person would sit there, hold a baby, cradle them in their arms, and let's just say that it was suffocation, and place their hand over the nose and the mouth of this baby,

and as the baby lay there in their arms, and watch it squirm and wriggle and fight for air and be denied that ability to draw breath. You know, for me, that's a drop the mic moment I think that that speaks volumes The problem with this is Is that they're going to take the horrific nature of this And they're going to flip it around in court

And they're going to say, oh, well, that's even further evidence That she was out of her mind And, you know, I bet you Dollars to donuts, there won't be accountability in this case. I'm going to let, I'm going to pause for a moment and let Art Harris and Karen Stark let that soak in. And now, on Crime Stories. Iowa City woman accused of trying to kill her newborn son has reached a plea deal with prosecutors. Ashley Houtzenrader gave birth in a University of Iowa hospital bathroom last May. She put the newborn in a pillowcase and left it in a trash can where it was found alive by hospital staff.

Houtzenrater was originally charged with attempted murder. The charge was dropped during a plea hearing. Instead, she pled guilty to child endangerment and abandonment of a dependent person. She faces up to 12 years in prison. A newborn baby flushed down the toilet? What? A newborn baby flushed down the toilet? What? A newborn baby flushed down the toilet? I never thought I would be putting those words together in one sentence. Joining me right now from DailyMail.com is Sean Walsh. What can you tell me about Ashley Holtzenrader? Ashley Houtzenrader, 24 years of age, gave birth on May 8, 2016, inside the restroom of the University of Iowa hospitals and clinics.

She believed her baby had died during birth. She attempts to flush the baby down the toilet. When that's unsuccessful, she then wraps the infant in a pillowcase and puts it in a trash can. She leaves, and it's found later by hospital staff and the baby is still alive. This girl, Ashley Houtzenrader, and I've got conflicting reports, but I think she's 22 years old, flushes her baby down the toilet, then claims she had no idea that she was pregnant. She says the baby was dead because it didn't cry. She then puts the baby in a pillowcase and leaves it in the

trash can, cleans the bathroom, and leaves. Okay, did you know this, Sean Walsh from DailyMail.com? We found state court records from May 2015 with an order establishing paternity and support for another child she gave birth to. So it's really hard for me to believe that you give birth to one baby, and let me tell you, that's an ordeal grande. Let me tell both of you that. I would remember it. But then when she has the next baby and flushes it down the commode, she says she has no idea that she was pregnant.

What about that, Sean Walsh? Yeah, look, Nancy, it's very hard to believe. And it's very, very sad. I mean, look, her defense is she didn't know. I don't believe that. I don't believe that. Sad? I'll agree that it is sad in a way.

It's sad for the baby. All I can do is say that's a felony. And guess what, Bethany Marshall? She's not even in jail. She has been released from jail. She's out walking free. She tried to flush a baby. She did flush a baby down the toilet.

It came back up. And that's more than just sad. I'm thinking about the baby. that is attempted murder if that was done to an adult then this would be attempted murder what she was in a medical center i'm not sure why she was at the hospital but sort of my thought about this was was she going to undergo some uh medical where she had to, it would be documented that she was pregnant? Was she about to give birth? Was she evading the whole labor process? Was she in labor?

She gave birth. She did not want to be a parent. So then she ditched the baby in the toilet. I mean, it's sort of all very strange that she was able to do this in a hospital setting. And you know, the research shows that women who kill their babies often do not bond with the babies while they're pregnant. In fact, some will deny that they're pregnant altogether. But the fact that she was actually in a medical setting implies that she knew she was pregnant. And there was some cognizance of the life of the baby, which flies in the face of what she's saying, which is that she thought that the baby was dead.

The reality is that she is walking free after flushing a newborn down a toilet. And when that didn't work, when the baby managed to come back up after the flush, she then threw it in the trash. Right now, because of medical protections, we don't know the condition of the baby right now. We can't find out how the baby is doing. But I do know that court records show, as I mentioned, an order from May 2015,

where she, Houtzenrader, petitioned the court to prove paternity, which means there's some guy out there claiming that he's not the father of another child and demanding child support for a baby girl she previously gave birth to, according to WHO-TV. That daughter, born around 2014-15, suffers from health issues. We know that. So is this all an attempt to get child support or state support? Sean Walsh? Nancy, anything's possible. But I mean, with this girl, what is extraordinary about this is a simple Google search.

Once again, it's all about Google, would have revealed that in Iowa where she lives, she could have left her baby at the hospital up to 14 days old without fear of prosecution for abandonment under the Iowa State Department of Human Services, who allow you to do that if you do not want the child. So you have options. And she chose to take the route of trying to get rid of her child by killing it rather than just handing it over and she could have faced no questions and no charges by giving that child up and it's alleged she chose the other you know another issue dr bethany marshall uh renowned psychologist joining me out of la and sean waltz joining me from dailymail.com. Think about it. There's this other baby.

And if you look on our Facebook, if this is the right baby and the right person, which it appears to be, the baby has the living baby. The first baby has a trache, a tracheotomy and a breathing tube. What do you think happened to it? I mean, I don't know. Why would that baby... It makes you wonder about child abuse. Yeah, it does.

I'm very concerned. And when you look at this girl, she's very cute. Seems, to me, seems normal. I don't know if that's true. What were you telling me about the Safe Haven Act in Iowa, Sean Walsh? What happens in Iowa, if you have a child and you don't feel you can care for that child you have up to 14 days after the child's birth to hand the child over to authorities and you will not face charges of abandonment so that was her option she could

have done that she chose though to allegedly to go into the bathroom give birth try and flush the baby down the toilet and then that didn't work so she wrapped it in a pillowcase and stuffed it in the trash. I mean, she had an option, and allegedly she chose not to take that option up. This all went down on a Sunday evening around 9.24 p.m. in a restroom at the John Colaton Pavilion at a hospital complex. This claims that 22-year-old Ashley Hudson Rader of Davenport, Iowa, entered the bathroom and gave birth to the baby. She claims she didn't know she was pregnant the whole time,

even though she's had children before, and entered the bathroom, then thought the baby was dead because it didn't cry. As Sean Walsh tells you, she flushes the baby down the toilet when that didn't work and the baby emerged. She put the baby in a pillowcase, which she threw in a trash can, then leaves the bathroom. Employees later find the baby miraculously still alive. We cannot find out the condition of the baby because that is protected information. So we don't know.

But we know this isn't the first time there have been issues surrounding the health of one of her children. Sean, why is she only charged with one count of child endangerment? That's just a, that's a misdemeanor. It doesn't make sense. Originally, she was charged with attempted murder and the charges were downgraded. So it makes no sense, Nancy. It's one of those cases we're going to be watching very, very closely because there needs to be a deterrent here so people don't do that,

especially, Nancy, since, as we've discussed, there are options if you're in this situation where you do not want to raise your child. You have 14 days to take that child to authorities. No questions will be asked and you can hand that child over and you won't be prosecuted for it. We're on it. Sean Walsh, DailyMail.com.

Dr. Bethany Marshall joining me from L.A. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.