Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Back to school: Teacher has student's baby & snorting coke in pick up line

Episode Date: August 21, 2017

Our 'back to school' episode includes a teacher who had an 8th grader's baby after a 2-year affair and a women arrested for snorting cocaine in the parent pick up lane at an elementary school. Nancy's guests -- including investigator reporter Art Harris, forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan, psychologist Caryn Stark, Daily Mail reporter Chris Spargo, and drug addiction expert Dr. William Marrone -- also discuss the case of a former Mrs. America convicted of scamming Macy's by switching tags and returning old clothes for refunds. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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They were having sex. A Northeast Ohio teenager and a teacher. The pair allegedly having sex for years. His son was a freshman at Akron's Buckdell High School. This one as far as the two having a child together? It was a straight failure from the school. The teen's father says no one did anything to stop it. 32-year-old Laura Lynn Cross allegedly began showing an interest in the 14-year-old when she was his eighth grade English teacher. My son is having sexual relationships

with this woman. With a teacher. With a teacher. He went to police. They told me, well, he's not cooperating with us, so we basically, you know, can't do nothing with it. Cross even convinced the teen's mother to allow him to move in with her. 30-year-old woman with a 14, 15-year-old boy. You know, and she's basically getting sexually aroused off of him. An Ohio teacher, a female Ohio teacher, has a love child with a teen student after a three-year affair? You know what? Last night when we were going to bed,

my daughter asked me, Mom, what was your fourth grade like? And I told her all about Miss Coleman, who always buttoned her shirt all the way to the very top, always had her glasses on straight, was very quiet and demure. Well, not anymore, people. I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories, and this is a crime. Why do people keep calling it an affair? You can't have an affair with a child. Joining me right now from DailyMail.com, Chris Spargo, crack reporter, also with me, renowned psychologist out of New York, Karen Stark. Chris Spargo, first to you. Why does everybody call this an affair? I call it child molestation. Let's start at the beginning.

What happened, Chris Spargo? So, Laurelyn Cross, who is a high school teacher in Akron, Ohio, allegedly began having a sexual affair with this boy that lasted over the course of three years. Chris? Yes. Chris Spargo, you just did it. You just said an affair, an affair. That's not an affair when you have sex with a child. Okay. Now, Chris Bargo, DailyMail.com. Chris Bargo, you're a young gent. Do you have children yet? I don't. Well, Chris Bargo, when you do, you do not want them getting down with the teacher.

Okay? Now, let's start at the beginning. And don't let me hear the words. Love affair, Chris Bargo. Go ahead. So she met this boy when she was his eighth grade teacher and allegedly started molesting him for a span of three years. The parents had maybe made some comments about it that were kind of ignored by the school. And now it is sort of just coming to light that they had a three-year affair that is

very i'm sorry three i know i know i know chris bargo i don't understand how this could go on for three years let me back it up just a moment this woman laura lynn cross allegedly has a three-year sex, how do I say it, relationship with a boy in her class, a student. They're at Bucktall High School, Akron, Ohio. She allegedly invites the little boy to use her pool before later getting him to spend the night. Now, how does the school not know they're sleeping together, that this 36-year-old woman, how old was the boy, Chris Fargo? When they first met, he was only 13 years old. And then once they started, you know, this alleged molestation happened, he was 14, 15, 16. Okay, let me get this straight. Karen Stark. Yes. Did you hear that? The boy had just turned 13. She probably met him when he was 12.

How can a school not know this? Well, the schools are supposed to be on the lookout for it, but obviously they must have done some kind of a good job in hiding their relationship. How did they do that? That's a really good point, Chris Bargo. How did the teacher, Laura Lynn Cross, I mean, this is back to school, people.

A 36-year-old teacher for three years having sex with what was then a 12-slash-13-year-old little boy, enticing him by inviting him to her pool. Chris Bargo, was she married? She was not married. Okay, well, somehow that does not make it any better. They didn't really try to hide it. The boy was actually living with her for a short period of time. Good gravy. Did the school know the boy was living with her?

It did, and the mother actually approved it. It was a partial parental agreement where the boy spent some time with the teacher. Okay, I've never heard of anything like this before where the parent agrees to have the child live with the teacher. I'm trying to think back. The only thing I can think of is the movie Matilda by Roald Dahl, where Matilda goes and lives with Miss Honey. I don't think that's what this was like. We are talking about a 36-year-old school teacher in Akron, Ohio, Laura Lynn Cross, who has a three-year sex relationship with a 13-year-old boy student. He ends up partially living with her, and nobody does a darn thing. Now it's come to light.

They have a so-called love child. Now, that's States Exhibit No. 1, a so-called love child. Now that states exhibit number one, Chris Spargo, the baby. Yes, they had a child and it managed to keep it a secret somehow for about two years. So what's happening with it now, Chris Spargo? The baby was born. Somehow the teacher, who's actually very attractive, the teacher has had the baby, kept it secret for a couple of years. I don't know how she kept it secret at school.

Or Chris Spargo, DailyMail.com, did the school just look the other way? Did they know whose baby it was? I mean, the school did. And the school is, you know, being very, very forthright in saying, you know, it was a failure. And the teen's father is obviously, you know, calling them out as well, just that, you know, they missed all these signs. They see them going back and doing an internal investigation now,

but that's obviously too late at this point. The boy's father, who cannot be named in order to protect the boy's identity, says that he first raised concerns with the school all the way back in 2012. So the school knew as far back as 2012 and did absolutely nothing. First of all, and I'm quoting the dad to ABC5, she's a school teacher. To get aroused by a child, basically you have to be a sick individual.

And I have to agree with that, Karen Stark, to be attracted to a little boy. It's wrong. How does that happen? I think the way it happens, Nancy, not that I'm approving of it is that the women that get involved in this need to be with a male that they can control. And clearly, when it comes to somebody that young, they can mold them to be whatever type of male they would like for them to be and partner, sexual partner. And I think that's part of the appeal. Well, what's concerning me, Chris Spargo, DailyMail.com, were the parents divorced? Were the boys' parents divorced?

Yeah, the boys' parents were no longer together, which is why the father obviously had immediately reported this back in 2012, but the mother, meanwhile, years later, was letting the son actually live with the teacher. You know, this sounds like a big fat lawsuit to me, but with the, I mean, a lot of money, but with the mother, the guardian, going along with the scenario, I don't know that they've got a leg to stand on. It concerns me, Chris Barger, that the father is complaining to the school as far back as 2012. So there's no way the school can say, we missed the signs.

It was like a billboard on 3rd Avenue. The teacher is molesting your son no i mean this is right at the start of molestation that was right right when it started and it went on for three years after that so it wasn't even like that came towards the end of it this is right at the beginning let me ask you this um where is the teacher right now where is laura lynn cross is she being prosecuted she is currently being held in jail. She is on a $100,000 bond and they will be filed. Fight charges have been

filed. She's three counts of sexual battery. So she's been indicted on at this time. You know, it's just the strangest thing, Chris Bargo. You know, my twins that you know are about to turn and they, you know, are really rubbing it in by running

around the house claiming they're going to soon be double digits they're about to be 10 years old this little boy was only uh two years and 11 months just not three years when this started John David Lynch could no more handle a relationship with a grown woman than the man in the moon. All right. He secretly doesn't brush his teeth and tries to get away without wearing underwear. He still wears his clothes inside out and backwards on the weekends. All right. I don't anticipate within two years he's going to get any better. I don't understand the connection this woman had with the boy.

What is the teacher saying, Chris Bargo? What's her response? She's staying a little bit more quiet than the father, obviously. I think she feels a little bit more complicit in this because of what she allowed to happen, whereas the father is just vocally speaking out against everyone, especially the school, and sharing his story. Where is the baby? The baby is, I believe, with the family of the teacher at this point. So I guess her mom and dad, wherever they may be.

And the little boy is now going on 17. What does he have interaction with the baby? I mean, you can hardly expect a junior in high school to pay child support. So if the mom is convicted, she goes to jail, Chris Bargo, right? That's correct. So that leaves the baby without a dad, essentially living with grandparents while mommy is in jail. Let me ask you this, Karen Stark, psychologist joining me out of New York. The attraction between an adult and a child, like a 12-year-old child,

that's A, pedophilia. Correct. And completely immoral and criminally wrong. Why do people go easier on women that commit child molestation as opposed to men? I think in general, there's a perceived notion that a woman is less guilty because in our culture, it's very hard to picture a woman as being the sexual aggressor. We see in so many situations that women are preyed upon, are weaker, that it's very hard to wrap around the way that we view things, something like this happening, that a woman would actually take advantage of a child.

And you don't see it very often. Well, there's no way, really, they can file any type of lawsuit against the school or the teacher, Chris Spargo, as far as I can tell, because the mom went along with it. The boy was a willing participant. The dad, after his initial complaint, I don't know that he complained again. The only thing that can happen now is a criminal trial. So tell me the counts that she's facing, Chris Bargo. So she's currently been indicted on three counts of sexual battery for the period between August of 2013 through September of 2016. Which, you know, given the situation here, seems like a bit of a light sort of indictment concerning that she had a child with a boy that she hit. You know, we all remember Mary Kay Letourneau.

Mary Kay Letourneau, a teacher out of Seattle, started an illegal sex relationship with Vili Folau, her boy student. I think he was between 10 and 11 at the time that started, something like that. She went to jail. The judge let her out for a minute under the condition that she not be in touch with a boy well she was caught within a couple of days

having sex in a car with really full out well put her back in the slammer where she gave birth when she did several years behind bars when when she got out, the two married. And the last couple of months, they have announced they're splitting. Wow, that's a surprise. What about it, Karen Stark? I think that this whole thing begins, Nancy, with the idea that a student should be allowed to ever live with a teacher. I can't think of any situation where that would be acceptable. You know, again, I don't think she can be sued civilly because the parents went along with it.

So, Chris Bargo, she's headed to court and she's facing a light sentence. Do you see any possible way that there will be action against the school? The father could independently file. That could maybe work. I mean, obviously, the mother, as you said, probably does not because of what she allowed to happen. But the father, you know, probably does not because of what she allowed to happen. But the father, you know, was very vocal about his concerns, and they were ignored. Take a listen to what happened in the Mary Kay Letourneau case. I'll never forget this. When did you first feel any kind of attraction to Villy?

Well, there was an emotional attraction late in the year, the end actually and that was we just had bonded we have similar interests and I also knew that he had girl interests and I did suspect oh I knew definitely it was extending in my direction, and I just really ignored it. He would say things to you? Mm-hmm. Like what? Well, one time he just came straight out and said,

Would you ever have an affair? This 13-year-old boy says to his teacher, Would you ever have an affair? He wasn't even 13 yet. Okay, this 12-year-old boy says to his teacher, would you ever have an affair? He wasn't even 13 yet. Okay, this 12-year-old boy says to you, Mrs. Letourneau, would you ever have an affair? I thought to myself, do not look him in the eyes, stay very busy, and it was very uncomfortable for me. And then?

He knew that I was avoiding all of his comments and insinuations, and he was very assertive and wanted a response. And when I looked him in the eyes, I... it really took me back. Because you felt something? I did, yeah. And basically he said that he was in love with me. Mary, what did you say? I said, can you hold that for a long, long time? And then what happened?

I didn't want to disrespect his feelings for me. And I couldn't, I can't honestly say that I was, well, maybe I can. I look back, maybe I was in love with him. I was going to say that I. You felt attraction then? I felt a very deep love for him. Now we head to Fort Myers, Florida. You may think about beaches, sunny days, fun with your family, awesome seafood. Well, that's not exactly what this soccer mom had on her mind.

I'm talking about Christina Hester because according to multiple witnesses, mommy was caught snorting cocaine right off her smartphone, right off her smartphone screen outside school in the carpool line. Okay, mommy, couldn't you at least do it before you got in the carpool line? I mean, it's pickup. Everybody in a carpool pickup line looks straight into your car. They all know your business. Why, Mommy? Why? Alan Duke is joining me along with Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University.

Alan Duke, what happened? This is a woman who just couldn't wait. She was in the parent pickup line at Lexington Middle School in Lee County, Florida. This just as school was starting back for the fall session and it seems though they call them the school resource officers. The cop who was inside the building, actually on an upper level, looked down and he saw through the window. He could see that she was doing something with a credit card and her smartphone and some kind of white powder. And he thought he knew what it was. And he was right. He brought Christina Hester, 39 years old, into the school, into his office, and then questioned

her, said, what were you doing? Do you have any drugs? And she acknowledged she did, and she let him search the pocketbook, and he found about a half gram of cocaine in her pocketbook. Wow. Okay, this is what we know. We know that a Lee County Sheriff's deputy allegedly spots Christina Hester there in the carpool pickup line outside the middle school using a credit card to chop up a white powdery substance sprinkled onto her phone screen she was parked outside there at lexington middle school tuesday afternoon waiting in the pickup line the deputy then allegedly sees has her snorted up through a straw. Well, she came prepared. I can say that for her. He then goes outside and brings her in the office, according to the Miami Herald.

And he asked if she had anything in her car. And right there, she says, a little bit of drugs. All right. The deputy then waits until school is completely dismissed and all the dismissal ends then he gets her purse he gets it out of the car right then he does a field test and finds out it is cocaine explain to me joe scott morgan what is the field test it's a spot test. It's not what we refer to as a quantitative. That means we can't get a specific number on the measurable amount of cocaine, but it's qualitative. That simply means that this white powdery substance qualifies, in fact, as cocaine.

0.05 grams, the substance test positive for cocaine. The next day, parents and students in shock after they hear what happens. So here's my question to you. Karen Stark, renowned psychologist joining me out of New York, weigh in on this woman and the carpool pickup line. I mean, really? There's no judgment involved, Nancy. It's just so outrageous that here's somebody with an addiction who obviously can't have any judgment as to when is the correct time to partake of this.

And she was using a straw. Obviously, people could see that she was putting a straw in her nose. So she's not understanding right from wrong. And you think about children being in that area, being able to see that, and the state of mind that she's in. Well, you said it wasn't the right time. Karen, could you enlighten me? When is the right time to snort cocaine off your smartphone with a straw? Well, I'm not saying that there is a right time to do it at all but the fact that her addiction is that terrible that she has to be doing the drugs

while she's in this line waiting to pick up a child so how will this just how will this affect her i mean it's stressful enough trying to get your kids out of the carpool line and get out of a packed parking lot. So Joseph Scott Morgan, how would that affect her if she just snorted up? It can turn you into a raving, psychotic maniac. It heightens all of your senses. You know, Nancy, I've worked a lot of homicides in my years that were fueled by cocaine and crack. This is a nasty drug. People used to take it to stay awake and alert and was considered to be something to be used to lose weight with many times.

It was a party drug. So she's waiting in the school line and she's partying out there. I don't think that it's an addiction problem as much as it is just she has no boundaries. Joining me right now is Dr. William Maroney, renowned medical examiner. Dr. Maroney, it's so great to talk to you. Thank you so much. You know, Dr. Maroney, we were just talking about with Joe Scott Morgan and Karen Stark about this 39-year-old

mom in a pickup line at a middle school in Fort Myers, Florida, and the deputy inside looks out the window, the school deputy, and sees her with a credit card cutting up cocaine on the back of her smartphone. Of course, she gets arrested, but Dr. Maroney, what does cocaine

do to your system? Why could she not even wait to get home? Her number one problem comes from right after not having any boundaries her exposure to cocaine has rewired her brain and she's no longer thinking through the parts of her brain that consider family that consider safety that consider planning that consider driving the car, her brain is being driven because cocaine, I'll dumb it down a little because this is brain chemistry, cocaine floods the brain with a transmitter called dopamine that gives you a rush and a high. And you get dopamine from good food, you get dopamine from sex, you get dopamine from cocaine, you get dopamine from cocaine. You get dopamine from

a really good baseball game. But there's so much dopamine flooding her head. It's like pouring a five-gallon bucket into a shot glass. And that's what she's seeking. And her brain is rewired to forget the basic things and family and reason. You know, Dr. Maroney, when I was prosecuting felonies in inner city Atlanta, just like Joe Scott Morgan was talking about, so many of the violent crimes that I prosecuted sprung from or stemmed from crack and cocaine. Then there's heroin, now the big wave opioids but cocaine and crack i mean people would burn a house down cooking up crack why because they get to a point where the more you use it the less natural dopamine is in your head and okay first of all what is dopamine

i'm just a trial lawyer dr moran okay the the the the the brain has little packets of chemicals neurotransmitters that it sends out that helps electricity go to certain places to make you feel things and think things. And dopamine is the currency. It's the money. It's the change that the brain uses for one part to talk to another part. And in that way that the brain communicates and it sends neurotransmitters back and forth, it's kind of like a calculator using electricity to send things off to you know some

chips and do some math problems but cocaine floods the brain and pushes dopamine to levels that are so high when when the when those levels wear off people say i just don't feel normal. I need to do that again. And they get caught in a vicious cycle. Let me ask you this, Dr. William Maroney. She had 0.5 grams. What does that mean? What does that mean in terms of cocaine? Well, it's half a gram.

And a gram is measured, up a thousand milligrams is one gram and that's a lot i mean 28 grams is trafficking all right just 28 grams is a a felony trafficking offense where you can do you know 30 years to life in some jurisdictions she had almost a gram, 28 grams is a trafficking offense. So what does 5.5 grams do to your body? Well, it's going to make her numb and it's going to make her euphoric, kind of like on the edge of having a really good laugh and a joke or a little bit of, you know, like a little bit of orgasm or really a good hot pizza in chicago it really puts well like that doctor hold on a moment yeah cocaine is not like having a pizza okay what the hay are you saying it's a really good pizza in chicago if it were like

having a pizza in chicago it wouldn't be illegal. Okay? The whole city of Chicago would be shut down. That's deep dish pizza territory. Yeah. So you got to help me out here. If it's like having a pizza, it would not be illegal. But the flood and the rush in your head, it gives you a chill under your throat. And it gives you warmth across your shoulders. And it makes your muscles relax and it it's kind of like being tickled with a 12 volt car battery so you're creeping me out just a little

bit okay the thing is you can't od on pizza all right you can od and die on cocaine let me ask you this so she still had 0.5 grams when they got in her bag but she had already snorted up so in light of that since she'd already used up part of it where does that land her well, I think it makes her unreasonable in her opportunity to make thoughts and decisions. If she had another 0.5 grams or if she had a gram, she would be impaired and she shouldn't be driving. Dr. Maroney, you do know the twins are headed to middle school children go to middle school at age 11 and you want this crackhead in the carpool line i mean you seem to be going easy on her well i the only thing the first thing i want to do is i want to get her out of the line and the second thing i want to do is get her to rehab and get her help.

She needs to go to rehab. I mean, if she had had the cocaine in several glassine packets, that would suggest she was trying to distribute it or sell it. That's not what they found. She is an addict. So if the state can order rehab in lockdown, that would work. That would work better than jail, actually. When you go to jail as opposed to rehab, what are your chances of re-offending? I mean, you at least do dry out in jail. Here's what we have. We have a tremendous effort,

especially in the last two or three years, to grow drug courts so people that get stuck in this position don't just get locked up, but they're given a choice that they go to jail and they get oriented, and then we give them the chance to go to a clinic that has a collaboration with the court system. Usually the Supreme Courts and the courts of every state have designated counties with drug courts, and you're allowed to go. I appreciate the whole thing about rehab, Dr. Maroney, but for snorting up in the carpool line,

I think she needs to at least do a year behind bars. Did that even sound remotely like here she comes, Miss America? Now, the last time that i actually tried to sing it when i would give lucy a bath at night and get her all dressed up in her nice fresh clean pajamas and her pull-ups and do her hair every time she would come out into the den i would sing here she comes miss america okay i haven't sang that in a really long time because she asked me to quit, but that's neither here nor there.

But long story short, Mrs. America and Shop NBC star host is facing five years in the can, five years in the can. Five years behind bars. After she's busted for allegedly stealing nearly $6,000 from Macy's in a price tag switch scheme. What? Okay, Alan Duke, what happened?

This lady, Jennifer Klein, apparently has quite a closet full of clothes. And so she would go to Macy's and she would buy some expensive designer stuff, take it home, take the tags off, and then put the new tags on her old clothes, which maybe should have gone to Goodwill anyway. And she took them back to Macy's and said, I just bought these from you. See the tags? Now give me a refund on my credit card. And I don't know how long she's been doing it, but they caught her. Finally, they caught her on two separate occasions, returning what would have been on the price tag, more than $5,000 worth of clothes, because the clerks realized this is dirty. This is not new. And not only that, but she had torn the actual brand names, the designer names off of the

clothes she was returning so they couldn't identify them. How did she think she would get away? Okay, Karen Stark. Karen Stark joining me, a renowned psychologist out of New York. Karen, you know, I'm happy for the detectives, the in-house detectives, the cashiers that noticed that the tags were torn out. I mean, if I try to return something, it's like, wham, bam, thank you, man. I'm in and out of Target. Nobody even looks at me. But here, they took the time to notice the tags had been removed probably because they had seen this woman on so many returns before so when she came in they probably looked at each

other went oh here she comes here comes miss america again with a return of some dirty and used clothing i'm gonna i'm gonna hold that That's another can of worms. But let me ask you this, Karen. Yes, ma'am. You know, and I haven't seen it, but Karen, you know her closet is about as big as our den and is probably lined with beautiful clothes. Why did she have to have more clothes? And she's a host at Shop NBC. So she could probably get some kind of a discount on everything they sell. Think about this, Nancy. How many times do we hear about stories like this in the news?

Bess Meyerson comes to mind and Winona Ryder when she was going into Saks and cutting off the tags and stealing the clothes with all that money. So it has nothing to do with the reality of what she actually has. In this situation, it's much more about, psychologically speaking, deprivation. Karen Stark, if you try to tell me she had a psychotic break, I will reach through this microphone and reach out and I don't know what I'm going to do. Maybe twist your ear. I'm not sure. Go ahead. She was very aware of what she was doing, but had no impulse control to stop it. And in these cases, it's much more about having a psychological condition of being of depression or anxiety and having experienced some kind of a loss or feeling of deprivation and a

need to steal to make up for that loss. She doesn't have deprivation. Aunt Harris, she's Mrs. America for Pete's sake. You said deprivation. I heard you. What Karen is saying is that her closet was full of clothes clothes but her heart was empty and needed something to okay can you cut his mic right now you know what that her closet was full but her heart was empty why is she any different art harris than some teen girl not uh let's just throw in a teen girl minority I don't believe you're Art Harris

that marches into Macy's and stuffs a bunch of stuff in her backpack so she can wear it to high school the next day and she's busted. How is she any different? And you two are talking about her heart is empty.

What? You better get a hold of yourself. She's a 50-year-old mother of two, and she returned the wrong items. Which makes it worse. She's plotting to connivingly cut off the designer labels and switch them out and return dirty clothes. That is, you know, it would be sad if it wasn't laughable, but it's a crime. And she's now been charged of fraud and faces. Art, you're the one that said her closet is full, but her heart is empty.

Now, when I call you on your BS, yeah, I said it, BS. You suddenly are now taking, you're backpedaling. You're swimming backwards as fast as you can. That's not like you. What, you don't want to be part of bringing down Mrs. America? This is someone who obviously, it should be a walking symbol of what is doing the right thing. Propriety. This is a tragedy, and we don't know what is going on internally with this woman, but it is a crime.

Can I ask you a question? Why are you two, you know what, I'm going to go to Joe Scott Morgan, not that I need a death scene investigator on this one, but Joe Scott, why are we so worried about, not me, I'm not worried about it, but why are Karen Stark and Art Harris, an Emmy Award winning reporter, I might add, why are they so worried about her feelings? She is a thief. Let me tell you this. Her heart might be empty, but let me tell you whose briefcase is full. The briefcase of the DA that's prosecuting this case. They're going to have all kinds of evidence in this case, Nancy. Can I tell you something? Yeah.

Hold on. You're going to love this. She reportedly had hundreds, hundreds of tags and equipment to change the tags and i guess what they mean by that is the equipment that you put those little plastic cords onto that you have to bite off your children's clothes because you can't find the scissors or is that just me those things she had all the equipment i guess she got it from shop nbc to put on the fake tags please Please. But it was conscious. We understand that she knew what she was doing. My question was to Joe Scott Morgan.

And my question was, why is Karen Stark, renowned psychologist from New York, and Art Harris, Emmy award-winning reporter, so worried about what's going on in her brain? To me, it makes it worse that she's a mother of two. Yeah, I can't speak to Karen or our state of mind, but I can say that what we have here is definitely a pattern of behavior. This is something that the DA is going to present because she has put forth in her mind, she's established this pattern simply by the evidence that

was found in her possession and this pattern of activity. This is something she's practiced at and that she set forth to do this. She's entering into some kind of criminal enterprise here and Lord only knows how long she's been doing it. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. You know, I don't know if she was, you know, neglected as a child or whatever the case. Yeah, she has. That's not going to matter when she gets into court, though. That's not going to matter. We've done a lot of research and a lot of field work on this. And I'm proud to say that Alan Alan Duke the Duke joining us from Hollywood right now has done extensive research on Macy's return policy and why is that important because Macy

has this incredibly lenient and generous return policy and the defense in this case of Mrs. America here she comes is blaming Macy's they're saying Macy's is the bad guy, Alan Duke. The Klein's defense lawyer has said that, yes, she made a dumb mistake, but it was Macy's fault for having that easy return policy. But here's the news. Since this happened, Macy's worldwide has changed their policy. It used to be you could get something and return it any time in the future. I could return that old polyester suit my mom got me in 1972 if that policy was still in place. But now they require all returns in one year. One year.

So you can't do that anymore. So they changed their policy all because of this woman? Well, the main thing is it's estimated that retailers, because of these kind of policies, lose about $9 to $16 billion a year. That's billion with a B. Macy's has been shutting down hundreds of stores around the country because they're losing money. And that is one of the reasons. So this is a pageant winner, Mrs. America, Miss Minnesota, TV host on the Shop NBC Irvine Live program. Karen Stark, since you're so concerned about her inner emptiness, I think is what you said.

Can I ask you, do you, Karen, and I must admit, I have been in Karen's posh apartment in New York City more than once. And Karen, can I ask you a question? Yes. In your home, do you have, like Mrs. America, do you have a supply of plastic tag holders and the equipment to attach price tags to clothing? I think it's pretty ingenious that she came up with that idea. I'm going to take that as a no, that you don't have that. No, not at all. I don't have that.

And if I leave a store and there's a tag that they forgot to take off I really have to bring it back because you can't get those off yeah do you know that for a fact Karen have you tried to get them off without the buzzer going off because every time John Dave and Lucy and I leave Target the buzzer goes off and we have to turn around and go have them fix it there's always one of those things left on whatever I buy when we try to leave. But this woman had beat that. She had beaten that with her plan because she had legitimately buy the clothes. And from what I, correct me if I'm wrong, Art Harris and Alan Duke,

but two items equaled $5,000 plus. So she's buying really expensive stuff. Yeah, really. I mean, these are like the dresses you wore on Dancing with the Stars, Nancy. They're not cheap. Now she goes and not only that, but police found 24 other items

in a search of her home that she supposedly returned. So this was an ongoing criminal enterprise. Who knows if they're going to expand it to RICO, but at least she doesn't, she's not printing money and has the Treasury Department on her for counterfeiting. So this is a way to make money without the onus and onerous threat of more serious prosecution, unfortunately. So, you know, ingenious, devious, and a crime. Well, she may be used to designer clothes,

but it's orange jumpsuits from here on out, Mrs. America. Orange is the new black, Nancy. Well, there you heard it. Orange is the new black. Okay, thanks, Art Harris, for that groundbreaking information. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, there you heard it. Orange is the new black. Okay, thanks, Art Harris, for that groundbreaking information. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.