Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Baseball star’s wife, infant murdered, pitcher Blake Bivens breaks silence

Episode Date: May 12, 2020

Three generations of a family were killed when Matthew Bernard shot his mother, sister and young nephew. For Minor League Baseball player Blake Bivens that was his wife, child and mother-in-law. Now he says he found out about the grizzly crime on Facebook.Joining Nancy Grace today: Randall Kessler - Defense Attorney & Family Law Specialist Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills; follow on Instagram at DrBethanyMarshall James Shelnutt - 27-year Atlanta Metro Major Case Detective, SWAT Officer Dr. Tim Gallagher - Medical Examiner State of Florida  Levi Page - Investigative Reporter, CrimeOnline  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Goodbye, friend. Keep the faith. Can you imagine the murder of a young mom and a little baby? Now we learn that the Tampa Bay Rays pitching prospect, baseball star Blake Bivens, breaks his silence on the pain he has endured since the murder of his wife, Emily, and his little baby, Cullen, just 14 months old. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

Let's kick it off. Take a listen to this. Police received an early morning call just after 8 a.m. on August 27th. A woman called to report strange happenings that morning. She tells the 911 operator that around 730, a man that she knew banged on her door, punched her in the shoulder and ran away. Just moments later, she hears gunshots coming from nearby. She drives to her neighbors and sees a body lying in the driveway, and she believes that person, a woman, to be dead. Someone bangs on your door first thing in the morning, punches you in the shoulder and takes off, but it didn't end there. Take a listen to our friend Dave Mack at CrimeOnline.com. As officers approach the house, they see an adult male sitting in a van outside the house.

The body of a woman can be seen in the driveway. Female screams are heard coming from the direction of the house. The officers go inside the home to check for anyone needing assistance. As they enter the main front door, there's a dead dog in the living room. Blood spatter is seen on the wall. When officers reach the rest of the home, they find a female body lying in the bedroom with blood on her chest and a spent shell casing. They find a deceased baby in the bedroom. The infant appeared to be shot in the head. A deceased baby, a dead dog, a young mom, all brutally murdered. What kind of a mind murders a baby, a dog, and a mommy? Well, take a listen to our friend WSLS 10 News anchor John Carlin and Brittany McGraw. Deputies have identified the suspect as 19-year-old Matthew Bernard.

Family members say he killed his mother, his sister, and her one-year-old child. Deputies found their bodies at a home in the Keeling community. We have some shocking pictures here to show you. They show the alleged suspect naked running past houses and a church before officers arrested him after an hours-long manhunt. Neighbors say they were frightened to see him running over to the church and choking a man before he was beaten with batons and arrested. About 100 officers responded to that chaotic scene and the manhunt sent at least nine schools into lockdown. We're not releasing the

victim's name until all of their family members have been notified. Family members are among those with a lot of the unanswered questions tonight. We don't know why the young man allegedly killed his family members or how it happened. But what does this have to do with the Tampa Bay Rays pitching prospect baseball star Blake Bivens? Joining me, an all-star panel to break it down and put it back together again first of all a renowned trial lawyer Randy Kessler joining us from the Atlanta jurisdiction Dr. Bethany Marshall psychoanalyst joining me from Beverly Hills on insta at Dr. Bethany Marshall, James Shelnut, 27 years, Metro major case, 22 years, SWAT, now lawyer. Dr. Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the entire state of Florida.

And CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Levi Page. Set the scene for me. What happened in that neighborhood? What did the neighbors hear? So, Nancy, this is 7 30 a.m this is in keeling virginia it's a very small rural town in southern virginia on the border with north carolina and at 7 30 a.m rachel jefferson says she got a knock on her door she opened it up and her 18 year old nephew punched her in the arm and ran off.

She said minutes later she heard multiple gunshots, went to her nephew's home, and discovered dead, shot to death. She called police. Police arrived at the scene. They opened up the home. There was more horror. They saw more dead bodies. A 14-month-old child shot in the head, Colin Bivens, and 62-year-old Joan Bernard both gunned down, along with the family dog that was beaten to death with a sledgehammer that was covered in blood. What a scene. You know, to Randy Kessler, now defense attorney, you and I have handled a lot of cases, but a crime scene like that, that's something nobody would ever forget. A dead infant in their room, the mommy dead, the dog killed. It's just just have you ever heard anything like it randy kessler

nancy for all the years that you and i've been talking about cases like this years and years and years i can't imagine a more grotesque set of facts it's gonna you know with the death penalty maybe on the line a dead infant a baby a toddler a young, a young mom, a grandma, a dog, sledgehammer, gunshots to the head. I mean, you can't put together a recipe, a better recipe for absolute conviction. And, you know, if this person shouldn't get the death penalty, I don't know who should. Well, of course, it's not going to play out that easily. As we all know, any veteran trial lawyer knows, it never rolls out the way you think it's going to. Of all people, the superstar in the baseball world, Blake Bivens, the Tampa Bay Rays pitching prospect,

it turns out this is his baby and his wife. Take a listen. In the last days, we learned Blake Bivens speaking out. We were in Chattanooga Tennessee finishing up a series there. We had got up early that morning maybe around 9 a.m. to pack and get ready to get on the bus for a day game and I woke up and just happened to check my phone as soon and I woke up and I just happened to check my phone as soon as I woke up and didn't have any messages from Emily or anybody so before I got up and got everything prepared I decided I would just check Facebook immediately as

soon as I clicked on Facebook I just saw a headline and the headline was just you know they were looking for my brother-in-law. And so I just knew then there was something going on, so I immediately called my parents. They were trying to figure out, you know, everything was going on. So at that point, I knew I needed to get my stuff together. I needed to probably get an airplane trip home, not knowing the extent of anything going on. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills. Dr. Bethany, can you imagine that feeling?

You don't know exactly what's happening, but you know something bad is happening at home where your wife and your baby are. You're a thousand miles away and you're frantically trying to find out what's happening. Nobody can tell you trying to get to the airport, that feeling bubbling up inside of you, Dr. Bethany. Nancy, the premonition, you know, when you love your wife, your mother-in-law, your 14-month-old baby, you're psychically connected to them. I'm sorry, but there are ways we are connected to other people that are beyond words, they're beyond a text, they're beyond a phone call. We just know when our loved ones are in trouble. And as I always say on your show, in the face of the unknown, we read in our worst possible fears and fantasies.

But in this case, the worst was true. I mean, it wasn't just a fantasy. It was a reality that horrible harm had befallen his loved ones and his family. And here he is alone. I'm so glad the manager of the team hopped on a plane with him to go and face the scene because nobody should have to be alone with news like this. Imagine booking that flight, getting on that plane, not knowing what's happening, but that feeling of foreboding, that feeling of dread. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about a crime scene like no other,

where a young mom, a little baby, even a dog, all dead. Multiple murders, including the mother of the mom, Joan Bernard, Emily Bivens, the 25-year-old mom, Cullen Bivens, the little boy just 14 months old, dead in his room. And then across the country, the Tampa Bay Ray pitching prospect, Blake Bivens, knowing inside something is horribly wrong. Take a listen as Blake Bivens opens up for the first time. Listen. That morning, I just remember we headed to the airport. I was by myself there, continuing to call parents, trying to find some information. Can't get anyone on the phone. Called Emily's phone several times. No answer. And so, you know,

as I'm sitting there in the airport, I don't know what caused me to do it, but I just decided to click on Facebook again. Maybe I could get some type of more information. And then again, the first headline I see is two females and a small child were gone and I immediately knew that was them. I found out my family was gone over a Facebook headline and I just immediately began to scream in the middle of the airport and you know obviously people are concerned looking at me funny and I you know and it was within maybe a minute after that I saw that that I got a phone call and it was the manager of our team Morgan Innsburg and he was going to come fly home with me and make sure

I was I got there and everything was okay and so you know that was really when that that day began. It was real. Blake Bivens, the baseball star, gets an odd feeling. He looks again on Facebook and that is where he learns his wife, 25-year-old Emily, his baby boy Cullen, his mother-in-law, all dead. You know, it's a funny thing. Back to you, Randy Kessler. I've known my husband for many, many years. I met him after my fiance was murdered and he stuck by me through all that. Do you know, Randy, brace yourself. I may go round and round with David Lynch, my husband. Man, we'll lock horns. You know, we never fought before he had children and everything went sideways. But do you know, in all the years that I have known David, in all the years, never once did I have a single

crossword with his mother or his father. Not even once. And I'm sure there was plenty they could have said. From a headline about a case I was trying to, you know, how I cooked chicken. I mean, it could have been anything. Never a word. Never a word. Even after we had the twins. Never a word of judgment, a crossword, nothing. Have you ever heard anything like it, Randy? Usually people hate their in-laws. It's incredible. But, you know, I mean, I do so much divorce work that sometimes people don't want to get divorced because they don't want to lose the in-laws. Sometimes, you know, I can't stand him or her, but I love the sister, the brother, the parents. So you hear it all.

But I mean, to add to this tragedy, not only do you have all those facts of how horrible it was and who was murdered, but then the victim, the remaining live victim that connects them all is playing America's favorite position in America's favorite pastime. I mean, this is just a super poor. Oh, man.

And what we're playing right now, Randy, is Blake Bivens, the baseball star. I can't believe how composed he is. I honestly think he's still in shock. Opening up to the River Church in Danville, Virginia. And I want you to take a listen as the Tampa Bay Rays pitching prospect, Blake Bivens, describes that horrible airplane flight. The only thing I really remember from the whole plane ride is I just kind of went through periods of, you know, I just stared at the back of the seat the whole time,

trying to get my mind to wrap around what I'm hearing. And it's almost kind of like, you know, this isn't really happening. And I'm just more of in a state of shock. I would go through periods of shaking, and then I would kind of start to lose it a little bit and break down and cry. And it was just kind of just a circle and the plane rides just seemed like they took forever. And you know we got to Charlotte and then when we landed to Charlotte we met up with some of the race personnel, and they were with me the whole way home. And from there, we just went home, and we had a large group of family members at my house there waiting on me.

And we hugged, and we cried for 30 minutes. And, you know, it was just an experience. It's unbelievable how much I can vividly remember from the day. You know, to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining us from Beverly Hills. Dr. Bethany, Blake Bivens, the pitching star, is describing that plane flight, trying to get home. And, you know, it just reminds me of when I just landed in New York and had gotten the twins bathed and in their PJs. I called my mom and she said my dad was on life support i spoke to him briefly said daddy hold on i'm on the way i'm on the way right now i got the twins dressed and we were out on the sidewalk at midnight trying to somehow get home to macon georgia that that

feeling and he said dr Dr. Bethany, he's trying to get his mind wrapped around what happened. But Bethany, there's no way, I'm going to follow up with James Shelnut on this, that you can prepare yourself for the details. There's no way.

No, there's no way. You know, Nancy, this reminds me of a story that we covered in 2012 of a man who took a synthetic party drug called bath salts, ripped all his clothes off, ran down the street and started eating the face off of a homeless man, savaging him, ravaging him. And we knew at that time that synthetic drugs like bath salts, Flocka, I don't know all the other names, began to flood in on the market. And they caused people to do terrible, horrifying things, to rip their clothes off, to run down the street, to attack people, to try to cannibalize people. And back to your question about how Blake Bivens could have prepared himself for this scene, he is so poised in this interview with this pastor, so gracious, not once does he say anything

about his brother-in-law, the perp. He talks about his faith with God. He talks about his journey home to prepare himself for the scene. He talks about his family members,, you know, prepare himself for the scene. He talks about his family members. But I'm going to tell you, there must have been a long history in that family with this brother-in-law having mental health issues, drug issues, causing bodily harm to other people. And trying to deal with it. Yeah. It's so hard for the rest of the family to try to cope with that kind of issue. To James Shelnut no idea that one of the first things I'd see would be Keith's bloody shirt lying on council table. I mean, you don't know what detail you're going to encounter.

No, you don't. And, you know, you can see it, you know, Nancy, your position. You saw it day in, day out. You know, when I worked as a detective in the Metro Atlanta area, I saw it regularly. You know, you see the horrific violence that one person does to another. And to some extent, temporarily, you get a little bit numb to it, but it always greatly affects you. And then the numbness wears off and it's even worse because you haven't dealt with it in the first place. And there is no way to completely desensitize yourself to the situation, even for professionals,

much less somebody like Blake, who was not used to seeing this every day. It's just, man, it's just heartbreaking for this guy. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about a triple homicide. Joan Bernard, the mother-in-law of baseball star Blake Bivens, the 25-year-old Emily, Bivens' young wife, and Cullen Bivens, just 14 months old, baby Cullen, murdered

in his room. Just recently, Blake Bivens, the Tampa Bay Rays pitching prospect, speaks out and he is speaking at the River Church in Danville, Virginia. Listen. I think the hardest moment for me was when I got home and I walked in my son's bedroom for the first time and realized I was never going to see him on this earth again. That was the worst moment of my life. Nothing ever will come close to feeling the way I felt that day at that moment. But then again, I know I will see him again one day, and it won't

be long. The incredible strength he is showing. Levi Page with me, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. What can you tell me about the crime scene? Well, Nancy, it was covered in blood. You know, Emily Bivens, 25 years old, was found in the driveway. She was shot. The dog was beaten to death with a sledgehammer.

The sledgehammer was covered in blood. Joan Bernard was in her bed. She was shot. And the 14-month-old baby, you know, just a couple of months over, one years old, was shot as well. This was a bloodbath. It was a horror scene. This is a county where the police are not used to dealing with violent crimes like this. It was a horror scene. This is a county where the police are not used to dealing with violent crimes like this. It was a shock to them and even a bigger shock to Blake Bivens, who, can you imagine? You know, he was a newlywed, had a one-year-old, and it's almost hard to believe what he went through. And he's speaking out almost a year later. The crime scene had to take days and days to process. I was saying the other day to Randy Kessler, joining me,

veteran trial lawyer in the Atlanta jurisdiction, I was on a plane. I just stepped on the plane from New York to California to march in a victim's rights march. Just as I got on the plane, I got a text that there had been a shooting at the Fulton County Courthouse where I practiced. I grabbed my bag from overhead, turned right around and got off the plane, got in a cab, went to another, I think I went to JFK and got a plane home within the next 45 minutes to Atlanta. That was the Fulton County courthouse shooting, multiple victims.

And long story short, it took almost a week with multiple investigators to process that scene. Why? Why does it take so long to process a scene like the one we're talking about right now well they want to get it right you know a Nancy boy I remember that day too you know from my office I look outside I see the courthouse and I can see the helicopters and you're just terrified because you know everybody that works in that building and it was just a horrible horrible day and a horrible time and horrible funerals but it you don't want to get it wrong. You want to make sure the DNA is right. You want to make sure nothing's contaminated. I mean, if the police, law enforcement mess this one up, nobody's going to forgive them. So you've got to make sure

you should just assume the guy's going to come and say, I'm guilty. Yeah, you're not kidding. Nobody will forgive him. That crime scene is corrupted in any way to james shelnut james you've been on many homicide scenes as many of us have been you can't uh you can't contaminate the blood from the different victims if you carefully analyze the scene you may be able to tell the sequence of events and put together a timeline that the jury is going to want to hear. They don't want to hear a prosecutor stand up and go, okay, look, I don't really know what happened, but we've got three dead bodies. That is not what they want to hear. You must not only carry your burden. You've got to explain it to the jury very carefully in plain and concise terms. Then you got to back it up with evidence.

One, two, three, just like that. It's got to be two plus two equals four, right? So how do you do that at a crime scene, Shelnut? Well, you know, you go back and you look at the evidence and then you're able to formulate, after you've analyzed this evidence, a theory of what occurred. And then after you further analyze it, you a theory of what occurred, and then after you further analyze

it, you can pin down what has happened. You know, there's always room for argument between the defense and prosecution as to the series of advances and things, but you properly analyze that crime scene. You can go back and very closely recreate it, and that allows the prosecutors to get up in court and tell a story of what happened in a way that a jury can understand it and perceive it. To Dr. Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the entire state of Florida, Dr. Gallagher, the crime scene, so, so important. And I didn't realize at the get-go that there's not just police homicide there. The medical examiner will very often send out their own ME investigators. They have investigators too. Because if you process the crime scene correctly,

you will most likely know the sequence of events. For instance, if Cullen Bivenins, just 14 months old, was killed first? Will we see a blood trail from his room to the next murder? Or was there a confrontation with mommy? Did she rush into the room to try to protect the baby? Well, there was the mother-in-law trying to run out to get help. I mean, that's the way you have to look at the scene, not walk through it, not move anything, not touch anything for Pete's sake, or it can all go right down the crapper. That's a technical legal term, Gallagher, but weigh in on the injuries these victims sustained and how, and how we can prove not only the injuries, not only the COD cause of death,

but what exactly happened. How do you do that? You can't really date a shooting and go, oh, this happened 20 minutes before this one. So how do you do it? Well, first of all, you're right, Nancy. The medical examiner is going to be at the scene of a multi-victim homicide. Of course, we're going to have our medical legal investigators as well. And these are all highly trained people who will go through years of training and certification to do their job. You know, you're right. We cannot pinpoint the time the injury occurred to the minute, but we can say things in general terms like these injuries appear to have occurred at in within the same time frame you know

within minutes of each other you know based on extrinsic evidence also at the crime scene you may be able to determine the sequence of events based on blood spatter blood trail all sorts of footprints. There may be a way to determine a sequence based on the evidence. You find, I mean, unless you have home security surveillance in every room, that will tell you everything. But I want you guys to hear what the Tampa Bay Rays pitching prospect, Blake Bivens, the pitching star, has to say.

Listen to this. One day I was on the way home from training. And I had recently read John 1633 that you shared last Sunday. And when I read, take heart, for I've overcome the world, it changed. It completely flipped a switch in my heart. And from that moment on, I knew that this was not going to beat me. This was not going to beat my family. I was going to live in victory the rest of my life.

And I was going to use this as a testimony to show what he has done for me, he can also do for others. And I just, that moment for me was one of the biggest moments where I just knew God was with me. And the only thing I knew to do was just laugh in the enemy's face because he had thought

he had won. But he had just, all he's done is awoken a sleeping giant. And as long as I'm here on this earth, every day I wake up, my goal is to pile drive him right in the face every morning when I get up. He, Blake Bivens, is quoting John 16, 33. Take heart. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, the murder of three innocent people. Joan Bernard, the mother-in-law. Emily Bivens, the wife of pitching phenom Blake Bivens and mother, Cullen Bivens, a 14-month-old baby boy, all murdered.

And yet you hear Blake Bivens as he's speaking to the River Church in Danville, stating, quoting John, the disciple, saying, Take heart. I want to focus now on the shooter. What do we know about the shooter? Take a listen to WSLS 10 News reporter Shane Dwyer. 10 News reporter Shane Dwyer is in Pennsylvania County tonight with the very latest. Shane, you spoke with a man who says he knows these victims well. John and Brittany, yes, that man, Matthew Bernard's uncle, we spoke with him this evening. He was there with one of our reporters earlier today as this was all going down in Pennsylvania County.

They were a little bit of a distance back away from the house. That's when he says he saw his nephew get taken away in a line of police cars. As that line of police cars was going by, he locked eyes with his nephew through the cruiser window. He says that the eyes of that person that he saw in the backseat of that cruiser were not the eyes of the nephew that he knows. And he just did not understand what was going on. That was his body. But he says as he looked at them, that was not his nephew that was in the back of the car. He does not know what kind of headspace he was in this evening.

So it is completely understandable to imagine all the grief that this family is going through, not only with the devastating loss of their family members, but not understanding how something like this can happen. OK, you're going to have to give me a lot more than his eyes were different and what was his headspace? No. Before I would consider any type of mental defect defense. But listen to CBS News' Jamie Ucas. Blake Bivens began this week full of hope. A minor league baseball prospect married to his high school sweetheart, Emily, and proud father of a 14-month-old son, Colin.

That's Emily's mother, Joan, in a family photo spanning three generations. But on Tuesday, in Southern Virginia, all three were found murdered, allegedly by Emily's brother, who relatives say was battling mental health issues. In his deepest grief, Bivens last night posted this. My heart was turned to ash. My life as I knew it is destroyed. The pain my family and I feel is unbearable. I shake and tremble at the thought of our future without them. In a tribute to his wife, Bivens wrote,

your love and kindness changed countless lives. And to his son, I can't breathe without you here. I finally understood what love was when you were born and I would have done anything for you. Bivens minor league club, the Montgomery Biscuits, canceled their games this week as investigators who met with Bivens scramble to figure out why. Bivens ends his note, I'm not sure what is next for me, but I do know God has a plan, even though I can't see it.

What do we know about the killer? The identity is not a question because the killer was spotted running from the crime scene completely naked. We do know that in the next days, a competency hearing is scheduled for the shooter, Matthew Bernard, Matthew Bryant Bernard. What do we know? Take a listen now to our friends at WSLS 10. This is Arisha Jones with the uncle, Bryant Bernard.

The uncle told 10 News the suspect is an all-around perfect kid, but he also says the teen expressed to his mother last week he was having bad dreams. A family torn to pieces. Investigators believe Matthew Bernard is responsible. His uncle says this is out of character for his nephew. Well, I love my nephew. With snapped. I don't know. Something changed him. Over a quick period of time,

here's a picture of Joan Bernard with her daughter, Emily Bivens and grandson Cullen Bivens. All three were shot and killed, but no one knows what led to the shootings. He expressed to his mother last week that he was having bad dreams and that he'd seen demons around his bed. And his uncle was told by the teen's dad he was troubled on the day of the killings. He woke up, yeah, he just, he said something to his mother that something's going on, it's got to stop today. Well, something was going on. I call it triple homicide, but let's see what the court says. This young man who was described by others as an all-around good kid, even a youth

worker at the local church, now charged with triple homicide. To CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Levi Page. Levi, what's happening? So, Nancy, we know that in November that the judge found Matthew Bernard incompetent to stand trial after he had a psychological evaluation. And there's going to be in the next few weeks coming up another hearing to determine whether or not he's competent to stand trial again. And if he is competent, the trial will go forward. If he's not, he'll go into state custody and be committed into a mental hospital until he is. Well, one thing, of course, that the state is going to argue to you, Randy Kessler, you're a veteran trial lawyer, is that Bernard knew what he had

done was wrong because he ran from police. I don't run from police when I see them. I may slow down a little bit, but I don't run from them. And also competency under the law is not insanity. competency simply means are you fit to can you assist your lawyer at trial that's the only question regarding competency right or wrong Kessler that's right you're always right Nancy but in a way that gives the guy two two chances at some sort of defense one is you know if he ran out crazy naked whatever they might later argue that he was insane at the time of the crime. But this question is, can he even stand trial or is he going to get some mental help and be able to avoid trial or put the justice system bends over backwards to give defendants the benefit of the doubt and give them the chance to defend themselves? But how can you not be competent? They're going to have some serious psychological testimony to prove he can't even defend himself come on this isn't a moment this you have to be

permanently pretty much incompetent this is not to say right now he can't do it the question is right now he's incompetent okay tomorrow the next day it's hard to say that somebody will never be confident to stand trial they may need a week they may need a couple days. They may need some therapy. He's going to be found competent as usually is the case. Yeah, you know, it's interesting the choice of words you used, Randy Kessler. The right to defend himself. Because 14-month-old Cullen couldn't defend himself. The unarmed 25-year-old wife and mother, Emily Bivens, couldn't defend herself.

The mother-in-law, 62-year-old Joan Bernard, couldn't defend herself. This is how it works to Dr. Bethany Marshall. Insanity under the law means you did not know right from wrong at the time of the incident. That's the law brought over from Great Britain by the settlers. Incompetency means can you assist your lawyer at trial? Whether they get you competent through a series of medications or therapy, most likely, and we saw it in Wanda Barzee and her spouse that kidnapped and raped Elizabeth Smart. At some point, the doctors will get you competent,

cured to the point where you can help your lawyer. Do you agree or disagree? I completely agree. And for all of those, your listeners who are struggling with mental health issues, there is not one psychiatric syndrome that I can think of in my field that predisposes somebody towards homicide. It's your personality that predisposes you towards that. It's hatred, it's rage, it's envy, it's toxic human emotion. Being psychotic or schizophrenic or bipolar does not make you homicidal. They are two very different things. What I think probably happened in this case, the age of onset for most psychiatric disorders is between the ages of 18 and 21. This man was 18 years old. I'm thinking that he had what we call a dual diagnosis situation,

meaning that there was an onset of some psychiatric issue, but because of that, it unleashed latent tendencies to be homicidal. That came from his personality, not his psychiatric issues, and it could have predisposed him to drug abuse. Often when people are becoming psychotic. Hold your horses. Right now, we don't have any indication of drugs. If it were drugs, I could understand it better. Like you were mentioning early, the bath salts.

But right now, that information is not out there. That would make it a lot simpler. And also, voluntary use of drugs or alcohol, not a defense. But I can end on this note. Take heart.

That's what Blake Bivens said, quoting John 16, 33. After all he's been through, he says take heart. That's what Blake Bivens said, quoting John 1633. After all he's been through, he says take heart. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.