Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BEAUTIFUL BRIDE STABBED DEAD: Parents Quest for Truth THWARTED

Episode Date: October 9, 2023

A ruling by a Pennsylvania appellate court upholding the finding in Ellen Greenberg's death hasn't stopped her parents' search for the truth. The Philadelphia teacher was found dead in her apartment, stabbed more than 20 times. Some stabs were to the back and head, and somehow the death was ruled a suicide. It was initially listed as homicide. Why did the medical examiner change it? That is the million-dollar question. The parents do not believe Ellen committed suicide.  Josh and Sandee Greenberg have struggled, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars, to have the rule changed, and the appellate court ruling is just one more obstacle. In a 2-to-1 ruling, the Commonwealth Court found the Greenbergs lacked standing to bring their claim. This means that the parents can't raise a challenge, but if Ellen's parents can't, who can? In the same ruling, however, the court did raise questions about a faulty original investigation.    It's a conundrum. If the investigation was not properly handled, how does that not change the cause of death? Joining Nancy Grace Today: Sandee & Josh Greenberg - Ellen Greenberg's Parents, Twitter: @justice4ellentw, Facebook: @justice4ellenFB, -www.gofundme.com/f/justice-for-ellen?fbclid=IwAR1kH2pxp0jWpWBFD6tX9JfiWGCE-sKf9VrSGmjAltcz-g81mY7hVhqOcGo,    Wendy Patrick – California Prosecutor, Author of “Why Bad Looks Good” and “Red Flags,” and Host of “Today with Dr. Wendy” on KCBQ in San Diego; Twitter: @WendyPatrickPHD Tom Brennan – Private Investigator and Consultant for the Greenbergs Dr. Angela Arnold – Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA. (voted ‘My Buckhead’s Best Psychiatric Practice’ of 2023) Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, and Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University; Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” Twitter: @JoScottForensic John Luciew [pronounced Lucy]- (Harrisburg, Pa) Journalist for PennLive.com and The Patriot-News of Harrisburg, Pa. (specializes in true crime and cold case investigations for PennLive.com); Author: “Kill the Story;" Twitter: @JohnLuciew  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm very tempted to say there ain't no justice. But instead of saying there ain't no justice. But instead of saying, there ain't no justice, instead I'll say, now is the time to dig in and fight. Why? In the last days, a stunning blow to a very loving, wonderful

family that I call friends. Their daughter, beautiful, brilliant, whimsical, loving, is stabbed 20 plus times, including in the back, in the back of the neck, in the back of the head, the ruling is now suicide. And no matter how much they fight and no matter how much of their own money they lay out, no matter how many private eyes and lawyers they hire, they still don't have justice. In the last days, a stunning blow.

The suicide ruling for this beautiful young teacher has been upheld. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111, where, by God in heaven, we are not stopping this fight. First of all, take a listen to our friends, Gavin Fish at True Crime. While this court is acutely aware of the

deeply flawed investigation of the victim's death by the city of philadelphia police department detectives the city of philadelphia district attorney's office and the meo we have no choice under the law but to reverse and remand to the trial court for the entry of judgment in favor of the medical examiner's office. Even so, in the interests of justice, we believe that providing a detailed review of the victim's death and the ensuing investigation is clearly warranted with hopes that equity may one day prevail for the victim and her loved ones. You know what?

If that is the law, then the law is an ass. There is no way in H-E-double-L that that suicide ruling should have stood. They are saying this, appellate court, that their hands are tied. No, their hands are not tied. That's why they are there, to right wrongs and seek justice. Yet they have chosen the political easy way out. Listen. The Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office and the pathologist who conducted Ellen Greenberg's autopsy,

Marlon Osborne, initially ruled Greenberg's death a homicide. Weeks later, without any explanation to the Greenbergs, Osborne changed her manner of death from homicide to suicide. The parents found out about the change from media reports. Ever since the change from homicide to suicide, the Greenbergs have been fighting to have the ruling changed from suicide to homicide or even undetermined. Changing to homicide or undetermined will allow for a new criminal investigation to be opened. 12 years later, and the Greenbergs are

back in court trying to get justice for their daughter. Joining me now, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. But first, I want to go to special guests that I call friends. Sandy and Josh Greenberg, Ellen's parents. You can find them on Twitter at JusticeForEllenTW, on Facebook at JusticeForEllenFB. There's a GoFundMe called JusticeForEllen. This mother and father have never given up and we are fighting alongside them until ultimately justice does prevail. Sandy and Josh Greenberg, first of all, I am so sorry that the appellate court has turned its back on you, but I want to hear your reaction when you learned their ruling.

I was stunned. I didn't really know what everything meant beyond tears because I'm all out of tears. Knowing I was just speechless. Josh, what do you think? Well, this has been going on for 12 years. So I was not really surprised by the justices ruling. I think it's flimsy. I think it's not very substantial or noteworthy, but what really got me was the extent of their description and detail of the whole 12 years, of how they felt that the main criminal legal system in Philadelphia

was flawed. That's the word they used, how they quoted many of our expert witnesses who've given evidence. I'm not talking about hearsay. I'm talking about facts. We have evidence. And that's what shocks me. But I was very, very heart one or positive that they were able to say human things let's call them human things human emotions that they admitted and they highlighted and they spoke about and they described why sandy and i and ellen should all have justice the truth truth. That's all Sandy and I have ever asked for for Ellen. The truth about her debt. We have never pointed a finger at anybody.

We have never said the police were no good. The DA was no good. The ME was no good. We've never pointed at a possible suspect. We want the investigation open with an impartial investigative team, with an impartial investigative head. And to do that, we do need the conclusion of the medical examiner's change from suicide to either homicide or undecided. That's all we have ever asked for, the truth. Joining me in addition to Sandy and Josh Greenberg, who it's amazing to me that they can see good out of this horrible, horrible decision by the appellate court.

It almost makes me lose faith in our justice system, but I'm not going to because I know that there is still hope. Joining me right now, in addition to the Greenberg family, is John Lucy, journalist for PennLive.com and the Patriot News of Harrisburg. And he specializes in true crime and cold case investigations. He's also the author of Kill the Story. John Lucy, thank you for being with us. Explain in simple terms, not legalistic terms, what happened? What happened is the law of Pennsylvania gives almost total deference to medical examiners and coroners when it comes to making cause and manner of death rulings. They are simply unappealable as a matter of law in PA. And the amazing thing about this decision, this opinion, 32 pages, only one page actually discusses the opinion of why they can't

let this be appealed, which is basically saying that the parents of Ellen Greenberg did not have standing to appeal this decision. If parents of a possible murder victim do not have legal standing to appeal the ruling of cause and manner of death on their daughter, no one has standing. So the rest of the opinion was, as Josh said, a recitation of this overwhelming evidence that they've amassed on their own dollar to question this manner of death ruling as suicide. And it is overwhelming. But unfortunately, the listing in this legal opinion is just lip service because the law is so unassailable when it comes to appealing these rulings. What's going to have to happen is there's going to have to be Ellen Greenberg cases in a number of counties in PA in order to create the groundswell for legislation that would change this. It's almost it's almost a legislative. Wait a minute. How about this? How about this, John Lucy?

Who, according to the court, would have standing? They never answer that question. They don't answer that question. And if the parents don't have standing, who does? I mean, I can't imagine who would have standing. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let's just remind everybody what happened in this case to Joseph Scott Morgan joining us, renowned professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University,

author of Blood Beneath My Feet and star of Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, thank you for being with us. Could you just refresh everyone's recollection? I know you and I, mostly you, did an incredible recreation for our Fox Nation special investigation, where you basically took over part of Jacksonville State University in order to create a fair and accurate depiction of the crime scene where I believe this young woman, bright and beautiful, was murdered. That's what happened. But could you remind everyone what happened to Ellen? Yeah, Nancy, the thing that stands out to me the most is the number of injuries that she has

sustained that have been indicated by the medical legal authorities as having been self-inflicted. We're talking 20 stab wounds. At least 20, because I disagree with you on that. At least 20. Overlapping stab wounds. Yeah, I know. Overlapping, you have these that are cross-communicating, as we refer to these in the medical legal context, where you have one stab wound that enters another. And you have opinions that have been rendered by highly regarded experts, such as Sarah Weck, that have stated that this is almost an empirical impossibility for someone to self-inflict. First off, multiple stab wounds, self-inflicted stab wounds are very rare. And even he says that in his opinion. But here's the rub. When you begin to examine these insults that Ellen has sustained to her body, there are multiple. You know, she's

found on the floor of her apartment in her kitchen with this rather robust little knife that is buried in her chest. And I think the most absurd portion to this is that she has sustained multiple stab wounds to her posterior, to her back, Nancy, to her neck, even some that intrude into the cranial area and brush up against the spinal cord. The fact that they could even imply that this is a possibility or within the realm of possibility is almost absurd. Guys, I want you to take a listen to our cuts three and 20. And that's from CBS 3 Philly and NBC 10. The AG's office led by Josh Shapiro, the current Democratic nominee for governor, has long insisted evidence proves the 27-year-old died by suicide. She was found by her fiance with 20 stab wounds inside their Manioc apartment in January 2011. But the Greenbergs are

convinced she was murdered and they're currently suing the city's medical examiner with the hope of reopening the case. I've lost count of all the amount of monies and efforts and emotions that we've been working at to try to clear our daughter's name and get justice for Ellen Rae Greenberg. She was stabbed 20 times, half of the wounds to the back of her neck. You talk to any reasonable person and they all say what the hell is going on? Tom Brennan logged 25 years with the Pennsylvania State Police and worked at the FBI's behavioral science unit in Quantico, Virginia. Now retired, he has worked nearly seven years pro bono with the Greenbergs investigating Ellen's death.

I said this is a homicide. And Brennan is right. And he is joining us today. Before I go to Brennan, take a listen to our cut for our friends, Dr. Oz. We engaged a neuro forensic pathologist who I had worked with in the past. And he studied all of the information that I had. And it was his opinion that this was a homicide and not a suicide. And he said the wounds would have severed the nerves in the spinal cord. And if you take, if you look at the wound track, the wound track goes in an up direction into the brain and causes a hemorrhage in the brain. So following that, that wound itself, the victim could no longer self-harm. In fact, Joe Scott and I firmly believe that there were post-mortem, after-death stabbings, which makes the idea of a suicide completely implausible.

Let's now cut 23. One was so deep, it actually nicks the spine. But you know, here's the rub. There's no hemorrhage. There's absolutely no hemorrhage in this insult. In other words, no bleeding. No bleeding whatsoever. Which means by the time she was stabbed in the back, on that particular stab, there was no

bleeding because her heart was no longer pumping. There is no blood where the stab occurred. That means that Ellen didn't have a pulse when that stab occurred. A post-mortem wound cannot be done by the victim. By definition, a post-mortem wound means you're dead. Somebody else is administering that wound. I want to go now to Tom Brennan, private investigator, consultant to Ellen Greenberg's family, joining us out of Harrisburg. Tom, I just I feel that you and Josh and Sandy have gotten a real kick in the teeth. You're down, but you're not out. What is your response to this ridiculous, inane ruling by the appellate court? You know, I've been involved in law enforcement for over 55 years. I've never ever heard of or read an order such as this.

To begin with, when you take a look at Dr. Galino and Dr. Osborne, okay, you have two medical professionals who committed perjury when we deposed them, okay? They both committed perjury when we deposed them. Okay. They both committed perjury regarding Dr. Osborne's performance evaluation. Okay. There are three memos out there criticizing Dr. Osborne regarding his performance. There are other assistant prosecutors out there, uh, like Guy D'Angio, who will tell you that when it came to putting Dr. Osborne

on the stand, he shied away from it. When you have this type of behavior taking place because of Ellen's death, I can't fathom that. if anything, can be done now. Because as far as I'm concerned, the appellate court is now part of the problem. The most obvious solution would be to change the rules, change the law. This is jurisdictional specific. Okay, Wendy, that's not happening. Nobody's changing the rules. To get the legislature to actually do something is going to take years.

Well, it'll either take years or it'll take a lot of cases quickly. Remember, that's how the Me Too movement changed the law of the statute of limitations to bring sex cases. So this is one of the things that John Lucy talked about. If you have more of these cases and by your bringing this to the attention of the public, we may very well have more cases because we all know there's no such thing as a perfect murder. But that's why preserving the crime scene is so important. Failure to preserve evidence shouldn't preclude further investigation or the parents of victim of receiving justice. If more people have suffered, God forbid, this kind of a procedural injustice, well, then we might see the barrage of cases in a very short period of time, given social media and the speed with which others say, you know what? The investigation into my loved one's case was also stalled in the court system because the law didn't allow for further appeals. So it could happen very quickly. I agree.

Nancy, it's an uphill quickly. I agree. Nancy, it's an uphill battle, but I'm the ultimate optimist, not insurmountable. And by Sandy and Josh and you and everyone else that is bringing this to the attention, hopefully that's something that we can accomplish. Okay. So your plan of action, Wendy Patrick, is wait for more people to die and their loved ones appeal it. Okay. Yeah. no. That's not a good plan of action. No, no, remember this is a cold case. No, this is not. This is a cold case.

There are lots of people who've already had this happen. So it wouldn't be anybody else dying, God forbid. I don't know about that. I don't know that there are a lot of people where the medical examiner had a closed door meeting with officials from the police department, the DA's office, and changed a ruling on cause of death.

I don't know that there are that many cases like that. To John Lucy joining us with PennLive.com and the Patriot News of Harrisburg. John, which appellate court made this ruling? This was the Commonwealth Court, which is the second highest court in PA. And, you know, their ruling could be appealed to the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania. But I want to I want to go back to that secret meeting that you just mentioned within within the medical examiner's office and involving detect detectives and prosecutors. And Josh and Sandy, jump in please we are sending a copy of today's program to the appellate court and to the supreme court in pennsylvania because they're like many other jurisdictions including georg and many others, there is a court of appeals, which is one appellate court.

And then there is a higher appellate court, the Georgia Supreme Court. Same thing in Pennsylvania. You've got the Commonwealth Court that made this inane ruling and there's a court over them. This can be appealed up. But that said, go ahead, John Lucy. The one thing I want to mention with this alleged conspiracy, which what's the Greenberg have alleged happened in the medical examiner's office and which they have a second civil suit pending. If we ever get to the bottom of what happened in that meeting and who was involved and what was said that that could

uncover the injustice here this meeting was prompted because of the fact that the crime scene of ellen's death was not preserved it was it was declared a suicide at the crime scene by the responding detectives that was overturned the next day at autopsy when it was initially ruled a homicide. But by the time that they went back to the scene, it had been cleaned and sanitized because it was not made a crime scene on the night of her death. So because you had no evidence, it could be collected once it was named a homicide. These detectives had to cover their butts and get this change back to suicide. That's the basis of what happened in that office.

This was a cover up. Hold on. Hold on. Too much, too fast. Can I tell you something? Yes. Do you know how long it takes to get a cleanup crew to come following a homicide? Forever. But wow, they got one in a couple of hours, didn't they? Apparently, they got a number from one of the officers, and they called, and they got it cleaned up.

I mean, yeah, it was fast. Okay, now, I want to analyze what you said right there. Can I drop in here? Yes. Number one, the cleanup crew normally takes pictures of the crime scene or the scene where they're cleaning up before they clean up. This was not done in this case. Number two, we've already mentioned that Melissa Ware did video the apartment before it was cleaned up. And the police took it and they can't find the.

My thoughts. Exactly. Jackie, could you roll our cut 39 from Crime Online? Even though the three-judge panel ruled against the Greenbergs' latest efforts to change their daughter's death from suicide to homicide or undetermined, the appellate court panel took note of the Greenberg family attorney, Joe Pedraza, when he pointed out that the building manager had taken video of the crime scene prior to the cleanup and gave it to the police, but that video is now unaccounted for, according to the New York Post. The panel added that there was no record of officers interviewing the company that cleaned up the crime scene, the building manager or the police department

representative who told the manager to hire a cleanup crew. Incredible. Can I go with number three? Go ahead. This goes back to the judges saying the investigation was faulty but i'm going to bring up something i think is very relevant osborne i'm going to call him doctor this time under oath on a video and audio said what he during a deposition that he was within the deposition said if he knew what he knew now, he would have changed it to undecided or homicide. That was his testimony. Under oath,

he has never done that. Interesting that that was not pursued by LA law enforcement to present to the Court of Appeals. There is a lawsuit accusing officials of conspiracy and cover-up, as there should be.

Take a listen to our Cut 41 from our friend Dave Mack. The parents of Ellen Greenberg have spent half a million dollars of their own money, according to PennLive, to try and get satisfaction and justice. The Greenbergs, their attorneys, and private detectives claim the evidence they've collected show Ellen's death ruling was changed after a meeting among police, a prosecutor, and two medical examiner officials handling the Greenberg case. A PennLive article says the evidence includes the ME official's own deposition describing the meeting. In a separate civil suit the Greenbergs filed, they accused the police, prosecutors, and MEA officials

involved in the meeting of individual and willful misconduct and participating in a conspiracy to cover up the murder of Eleanor Greenberg. In that lawsuit, the Greenbergs are seeking unspecified monetary damages. What is the status, Sandy Greenberg, of that lawsuit? We're waiting for, they're withholding all the information from us, so I don't know the legal terms of how to explain it. Our lawyer, Sandy, let me help you here. Our lawyer subpoenaed for the information, the case files. I believe, I'm going to go say turned down, and they now have filed a 178-page petition asking for the evidence. Why, after the case

is closed, according to the police, they will not give us the evidence. I believe that's the way the law is written. I believe that's the way the law is written. I believe that's the way the law is written. Well, you're absolutely right. Once a case is closed, law enforcement does not have a right any longer to keep that file to itself and not release it. crime stories with nancy grace

john lucy can this be appealed up to the highest appellate court in Pennsylvania? Yes, it can be appealed. Now, that's a matter for the Greenbergs. But given the realities of the law, I don't know that the outcome would be any different. Their lawyers would advise them of what the possibilities are, given the current ruling by the Commonwealth Court. Well, here's the deal, John Lucy. You have to exhaust all of your state remedies, all of them. are given the current ruling by the Commonwealth Court. Well, here's the deal, John Lucy.

You have to exhaust all of your state remedies, all of them, before you can leap into federal court. Once you don't get satisfaction, when you have a legal basis and a factual basis, and you can't get satisfaction in the state court system. You must exhaust all the way up all of your possible remedies and then take those rulings to the lowest federal court, which would be a federal district court. And then if you don't get the ruling you want there, then you try for the federal appellate court, a circuit court. If you don't get a ruling there, you try, you try to get a writ to go to the U.S. Supreme Court. Nancy, this is Wendy. That's what you do. Yes, I heard your suggestion that we wait for more people to die. Yes. Do you have another thought? No, I said, actually, I said the opposite because these are cold cases we're talking about where justice hasn't been served. Excuse me. You're right. Wait for more cold case families to appeal. Yes. More cold case families to come forward, because one of the things that really bothered me about

this ruling is the standing issue, and that if the parents don't have standing, who does? And I'm just sort of thinking through brainstorming. We need to figure out who has standing to seek justice so that they can receive justice in the lower court system. And if the standing is the big deal, you know, there are other people that were involved in this, maybe the investigators, maybe other, I mean, there has to be somebody that the court would rule is able to bring this argument in such a fashion that we can achieve justice now, instead of waiting for families of people that have already died, or God forbid, waiting for families of people that have already died or, God forbid, waiting for more cases.

To Dr. Angela Arnold joining us, renowned psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, you can find her at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Where can the Greenbergs summon the strength for this next round? Because I'm telling you, let me tell you, Dr. Angie, which I'm happy if you don't know this, uh, but the, the harsh truth is when you go to the, let's just pretend, um, Georgia court of appeals, guess who's right down the hall from them, the Georgia Supreme court. Guess who has lunch together every day? Guess who uses very often the intermingled law libraries?

The Georgia Supreme Court. And I'm sure it's the same way in Pennsylvania. So we're asking the Pennsylvania Supreme Court to overrule their buddies down the hall? The Commonwealth Court. Now, is that going to happen? Maybe. Maybe one justice on the Pennsylvania Supremes will have a backbone and do the right thing.

Maybe they can convince the others to go along. All we need is a majority, which in many jurisdictions is five people against four on the state Supreme Court. Typical, not always. But if not then, then take it straight to the feds. So how do you summon the strength? How do you keep fighting Dr. Angie when you are broke, when you spent going on three quarters of a million dollars, when you're exhausted, when you are depressed, when you keep getting a kick in the rear end every time you get up to try again? What do you do?

Nancy, I believe that the parents, with each step that they go along the way, it seems like they would be defeated in each step of the way. But I have a feeling that they are so strong that each step of the way is giving them more strength to want to defeat this horrific, horrific ruling. Because we all know, Nancy, we've been doing this story forever. Their daughter did not commit suicide. This is bullshit. But now, unfortunately, like you said, Nancy, now they're up against all of these law people that are possibly

talking to each other. But I have a feeling that they are gathering their strength and moving forward because they have got to prove something in this case. You know what I do, Josh and Sandy, when I am defeated and exhausted and get tired of slings and arrows in literary terms. It comes to me. I don't summon it up. It comes to me. I remember my fiancé's incredible blue eyes.

I used to say, Keith, your eyes are so blue, I think I could swim in them. I remember him looking at me on one particular day, looking up at my window, and I looked down, and the sun was in his eyes, and they were the bluest things I've ever seen. I think of that moment, and then I know nothing else matters. It doesn't matter what anybody else says or thinks or does. It matters what I do. And if I do it with a clear conscience and with all my strength and all my heart, and it hurts. And I can only imagine what you and Sandy have gone through, Josh. So tell us, how do you keep going? Well, I would like to do two things. I'll answer your question directly,

but I'd also like to bring up the fact that the city of Philadelphia issued a statement discussing this ruling, saying there may be other ways this actually happened. I'm not making this up. That's out there. I appreciate what the city of Philadelphia said, but that has no legal significance at all. It's just like they yelled it out the car on third Avenue. So what if they said, oh, this may have happened a different way. Does that somehow help you? Does that help further your legal battle? Have I missed something, Josh? I'm not an attorney, but you asked me how I keep how I keep going. I keep going because I see my daughter in my mind's eye. I keep going that I know she didn't do this. And somebody out there is a murderer and somebody out there is an abuser of women.

And that person should be stopped before this happens again. And everything we're fighting for is not just for Ellen. If this whole thing was changed, if this whole law, given the medical examiner's unilateral, I don't know what, omnibus-like powers, this would help others who are also in the same boat. We are not the first to go through this, and we won't be the last if we don't win. You know, Josh, I've listened to so many different things that you have said in the past, and what you just said literally gave me chills because you are so right. You are not the first to have been mistreated. Ellen is not the first. Sandy is not the first to have been mistreated. Ellen is not the first. Sandy is not the first.

And you won't be the last until people stand up and fight back against this. And to you, Sandy, question, how do you keep going? Because early, early this morning when we were on the phone, I heard you guys actually say, we see positive in this. And I was thinking, what are they talking? What is positive? Because, yes, the appellate court goes, oh, this was horrible. Yes, this was wrong. Yes, there were problems.

But we're not going to rule in your favor. How do you keep going, Sandy? I'm very determined and nothing takes place when the truth is the truth and it's raw and it's out there. And this judgment was read by not just us people who care, but people on the opposition who are trying to conceal a homicide read it too and i can't get over how revealing the situation is and the intentions of the politicians and law enforcement and the medical examiner's office they're out their intentions are out there and they're out. Their intentions are out there, and they're not ashamed, which I just, I can't understand it. And what do you, Sandy, think are their intentions? Well, they're dug in so deep, but the truth keeps rising to the top

so that at some point, you know, the longer you continue, the worse the lie gets. So somehow they're going to have to figure it out. Do you intend to appeal this ruling, Josh and Sandy? Yes. Praise the Lord. We wait as justice unfolds. And remember, it ain't over yet. By remember, it ain't over yet.

By God, it ain't over yet. Goodbye. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.