Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Beauty Queen Mom Dead in Bathtub. Accident or MURDER?

Episode Date: June 11, 2019

Michele MacNeill, wife of a respected Utah physician, is found dead in her bathtub. On medications while recovering from plastic surgery, the initial report was death by accidental drowning.New clues lead to murder charges.  Who killed Michele MacNeill?Nancy's expert panel weighs in:Wendy Patrick:  Trial Attorney & author of “Red Flags”Dr. Kris Sperry:  Retired Chief Medical Examiner for the State of Georgia  Caryn Stark:  PsychologistSteven Lampley :   Former detectiveDavid Mack:    Syndicated Radio Host Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Okay, what's the problem, sir? Sir, what's wrong? Who's in the bathtub? Who's in the bathtub? Okay, is she conscious? Okay, sir. Sir, I can't understand you, okay? Can you calm down just a little bit? Okay, your wife is unconscious?

She is unconscious. She's under water. Okay, did you get her out of the water? I did. I let the water out. I'm sitting on the water. She's under the water? She's under the water. Now, what was the ambulance? Okay, is she breathing at all? She's not. Okay, sir, the ambulance has been paged.

They're on their way, okay? Do not ring up. What? Sir? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. You just heard a 911 call, an urgent 911 call. A beauty queen, brilliant as well, slips under the water in her tub to her death.

Michelle McNeil, absolutely stunning, found slowly slipping away from life under the water in her own bathtub. But how did it happen? Take a listen to this. Okay, is she breathing at all? She's not. Okay, sir, the ambulance has been paged. They're on their way, okay? Do not ring up. What? Sir? Why would an adult female be sick? Hello? Sir, this is 911. Can I help you? I need help right now. Sir, they're on their way.

Is your wife breathing? She is not. I am a physician. I've got CPR in progress. You're doing CPR? Do you know? No, no, no. Sir, how old is your wife? My wife is 50 years old. She just had surgery. She had a couple of days ago. What kind of surgery did she have? She had a facelift.

She had a facelift? Yes. Okay, do you know how to do CPR? I'm doing it. Okay, do not take... You are hearing the rest of that 911 call when the 911 operator calls back to the mansion of Dr. Martin McNeil, his wife, Michelle, slowly slipping away from life. Wow. A 911 call is how I like to start every single

investigation, every single incident, every single trial, every single accident reconstruction, because in those moments, you hear what's really going on at the time. I can have a detective or a witness drone on on the stand forever, but it's not the same as hearing it in the moment. Because what I heard is a man screaming that his wife was not breathing, that he is a physician, that he is performing CPR. And he sounds completely in the moment trying to save her. Joining me right now, an all-star panel, starting with Dr. Chris Sperry, retired chief medical examiner. Wendy Patrick, renowned California prosecutor, author of Red Flags. Karen Stark, psychologist joining us out of Manhattan.

You can find her at karenstark.com. Former detective, you can find him at stephenlampley.com. And right now, syndicated talk show host, David Mack. David, let's start at the beginning. I think I heard him yell out the word, she just had surgery. Yes, ma'am. That's exactly what he said. Okay. Let me go straight to our physician, Dr. Chris Sperry. Dr. Sperry, any surgery can have complications. I remember when I gave birth to the twins, I couldn't breathe. I couldn't breathe. I couldn't breathe. I didn't know what was happening. Finally, it took a while to identify. I'd had blood clots, many blood clots lodged in my lungs. That's why I couldn't breathe. And it was exacerbated by a cesarean section. That's what happened. And I still to this day don't really understand the whole thing. But I

now know that even a simple surgery can have serious results. When you have a full-on facelift, which I think is pretty young. I'll get back to you, my shrink Karen Stark on this. At age 50, you have a full-on facelift? I mean, 50 is the new 30. That's what I read the other day. So anyway, Dr. Chris Berry, how can something like a facelift end up in tragedy? Well, there's a lot of pain involved, and many people don't appreciate that facelifts like this can be very painful. It can be difficult to eat and to drink. And one of the biggest problems, actually, that comes with a surgery like this is the pain and then the use of medications to blunt the pain and then the complications that arise from those medications. Okay, wait a minute.

I instinctively just held my hand up to my face and all three of us here in the studio, Jackie and Riley and myself, are making all of faces, thinking about your face being, you know, lacerated and cut on in surgery. Ew. Do you think plastic surgery, a full-on facelift, is more painful? Because I've always heard, Dr. Sperry, now that I've got you in my clutches, that anything to do around your neck and your face is more painful than events that happen to the rest of your body. Well, yes, it is. The face has lots and lots and lots of nerve endings and many, many small,

complex muscles. And so it needs a lot of nerves to make all those work. When we talk, when we smile, all the things we do with our face require muscles and nerves, and there's a lot of blood vessels as well, which is another danger. So, you know, irritating the nerves, the inevitable swelling of all the tissues from doing a facelift leads to increased pain and difficulty in moving muscles, a whole host of different complications. And like I said, most people who undergo facelifts like this don't really understand how difficult the recovery can be because of the swelling and the pain that's involved. Okay, so your theory would be that potentially she had taken pain pills and slipped under the water. You know, I don't know what it is with women in bathtubs. Karen Stark, psychologist, isn't 50 a little young to be having a facelift,

a full on facelift? Nowadays, Nancy, people sometimes have facelifts when they're in their 30s. Okay, so is that a solid no? I live in New York City, so it's not young at all. So is that, you're telling me no. Okay, well, I would think that it City, so it's not young at all. So is that you're telling me no. Okay, well, I would think that it was, but okay, I stand corrected. David Mack, question to you. Joining me, David Mack, syndicated talk show host. Was she on pain pills? Could that have contributed to her drowning death?

Yes, ma'am. Actually, she was on four different medications, all of which would actually leave her sedated. And two of those were pain medications, Lortab and Oxycodone. Ooh, okay. Guys, take a listen to this. My mom said, I'm going to meet with the plastic surgeon. Your father wants to get me a facelift. You've got to make up on it. Like anyone getting older

you have things that that you don't like and so my dad's trying to do something nice for her she told me she said you know your dad's trying to look all better well maybe i will too i thought well maybe that would be a good thing in april 2007 michelle moves ahead with the procedure alexis takes a break from medical school in school in Nevada to help with her mom's recovery. I was monitoring her. I was giving her medication. She had gotten down to like a half of a pain pill. She was feeling good. I was excited because she was healing very well. So I was going to be flying back to Nevada to finish medical school.

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. I called my mom, which was something that I did multiple times a day, and she didn't answer. I called again, and my mom didn't answer, but my father did. My father said, your mother, she's not waking up. I've called the police. I was just horrified. I dropped all of my books. I got in my car, started driving as fast as I could,

just sobbing and driving to the airport. When I got to the airport, my brother called and said she didn't make it. Oh, my stars, I can't even imagine getting the phone call that my mom, quote, didn't make it. You're hearing our friends at Oxygen, daughter Alexis describing taking a break from medical school to help her mom get over the plastic surgery. Then she was down to a half a pain pill a day. And so the daughter Alexis goes back to medical school in Nevada. David Mack, syndicated talk show host, I need to know more of the facts now. Where did this happen? Tell me all the circumstances surrounding finding this beauty queen and mother dead or dying in the bathtub.

There was water in it, as you heard during the 911 call, and her husband claiming that he can't get her out of the tub. She had been on the phone with her daughter Alexis about 20 minutes before this took place, and when they found her, he had undone the water, so the water was trying to drain out, but she was still in the tub. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Did you just tell me she had been on the phone 20 minutes before she's found dying? Yes, ma'am. Okay. See, I didn't remember that. I don't remember that fact at all. Wow. And down to a half a pain pill. That's, I don't think very much at all. Of course,

Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor and author of Red Flags, in our business, we think a half a pain pill that somebody takes is nothing because we're used to people trafficking bags and bags and hundreds and thousands of pain pills like Oxycontin at a time. I'm so leery. I don't take any medication at all unless I absolutely have to because I'll never forget, Wendy, I was a brand new prosecutor out of your dad's courtroom where he had just been. I've got Daryl Cohen's daughter in here as an intern, Riley. I was a brand new prosecutor and was taking one of my very first guilty pleas. And it was this gorgeous young woman that came in. I'd say she was about 31, 2, 3-ish. I looked in the file and she was a stockbroker, a very successful stockbroker. She had lost her job, lost her license to trade or whatever stockbrokers do exactly. She couldn't do that anymore. She had been divorced. Her family, her children were living elsewhere with the husband.

She was all alone because she got addicted to painkillers. And she was not ill. It started with alcohol, then it turned into painkillers. She lost everything. And I just stood there going, wow, I will never forget that moment. So when I even hear if I have a pain pill, you know, I don't think that's very much compared to what we're used to seeing, Wendy Patrick. Yeah, you're absolutely right, Nancy. And what is stunning in a case like this, it's one thing to have somebody over-medicating themselves because they're stressed out, they're burnt out, they become addicted. Take a listen to what Alexis McNeil has to say about her mother. I called my mom, which was something that I did multiple times a day.

And she didn't answer. I called again. And my mom didn't answer, but my father did. My father said, your mother, she's not waking up. I've called the police. I was just horrified. I dropped all of my books. I got in my car, started driving as fast as I could,

just sobbing and driving to the airport. When I got to the airport, my brother called and said she didn't make it. You know, I'm just listening to her recounting again how her mom, quote, didn't make it. When I hear Stephen Lampley, a detective at StephenLampley.com, when I hear a woman is dead in a bathtub, I immediately think of Rod Kovlin's wife. Do you remember her? Shili Danishevsky, that trial just ended. She was dead in the shower. All right. Then you've got, uh, Drew Peterson's first of four wives, Kathleen Savio, dead in the tub. I mean, I could just name them and name them and name everybody. All these women seem to die in the tub, Stephen Lampley. I mean, I guess now a homicide detective walks into a scene and you find the woman dead in the tub.

You're like, OK, this is a murder. What's the deal with women in bathtubs, Stephen? Well, Nancy, oftentimes it's easy. You know, like, for instance, in this case, you drug somebody and then the water drowns them. And then you've got a supposedly good alibi. You've got a good case. And it's just a lot easier. Of course, any homicide detectives can come in and you start from scratch.

Everybody around the world is a suspect until you start eliminating folks, including the family. But it seems that the tub is a favorite son of homicide suspects. Take a listen to this. Did the defendant tell you about the day that Michelle passed away? A little, yeah. What did he tell you? He told me that there was a health fair going on at his developmental center. He told me that he had picked up his youngest from school and had gotten to the house and found Michelle in the bathtub. Did he tell you how she was dressed?

He did. I think she was, I think, I don't remember when, just, I didn't chase him for details, but I believe she was partially dressed. Partially dressed? Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host, you didn't tell me that. She's taking a bath in her clothes. that the EMS crews found everything. And you've got a description from the six-year-old daughter who is the one who actually found her in the tub and said she was fully clothed, wearing a jogging outfit. Take me back to their mansion. Describe the scene. Who was home? Who found the body?

Where were all the players at the moment she was found dead? When she was found in the bathtub, Dr. McNeil and their six-year-old daughter had just come home from an event at the school that day. Wait a minute. So McNeil, the husband, Dr. Martin McNeil, he's a lawyer and a doctor, was away from home with the daughter at a school event at the time she drowned? Did you just say that?

Yes, ma'am. They were actually at a safety fair at the school. After he picks up his youngest daughter, Ada, from the school about 1135, they arrived back home a few minutes later. That's when Ada found her mother unresponsive, according to her description, head down in the master bathroom bathtub. Now, Martin's son, Damien, and Damien's girlfriend were apparently also in the home, but I don't know exactly where they were. But that was, and she was found face down in the tub. According to the six-year-old, she had a jogging suit on. And of course, when EMS got there, she was partially clothed. Okay. Interesting. Why would she be in the tub, even partially clothed? This whole thing is not

fitting together for me. I want to go to Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, author of Red Flags on Amazon. Wendy, a lot of people think children are horrible witnesses. I disagree. I think they're great witnesses. because, yeah, it could be argued they don't understand truth from lies, but I disagree with that. I've had great success with children on the stand. You have to kind of unlock their language, but once they begin, once you understand what they're saying, I don't think they have the same capacity to lie that adults do. This little girl said mommy was in the tub and she had on her jogging suit. Yeah, you know, Nancy, I agree.

Kids lack not only the motivation, but also the capacity, the manipulative capacity that adults have. Children don't really, they can't really think through why they might want to lie about what they saw. They're more concerned with pleasing the questioner, and especially if it's a judge, answering the questions as best they can. Also, Nancy, the wonderful thing about kids is they are familiar with patterns. What do the parents normally do? How does mommy normally look before she gets into a bathtub? Whatever the fact patterns are, they're able to provide the kind of perception that an outside, an object outsider never would be able to pick up on. So they are, they're credible witnesses. They are certainly capable witnesses.

And in the eyes of many juries, they're very competent witnesses as well. Speaking of children, I'm looking at a photo right now. I just had to count them. David Mack, I'm counting eight children in this photo with her and Dr. McNeil. Is that correct? Does this woman have eight children? She looks like a runway model. They did have eight children. The younger ones were adopted. The daughter, Ada, who was six at the time, had found mom in the tub.

She was actually their biological granddaughter, whom they also adopted as their daughter. So yes, eight children in that photo. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What a day in court, hearing a witness actually testify. Martin McNeil told her, ordered her to flush all the pills down the commode before anybody could see them. And this was on April 11th. It was just about an hour after she'd been pronounced dead. The family is back at the home, meaning Martin was there, Damien, his son, and Eileen Hang, who was on the stand, who was the girlfriend of Damien. And she said, is there anything I can do to help you? Anything at all? Martin led them into the bathroom area, bathroom area where there were pills.

And it was Martin that opened them. It was Damien that counted them. Martin wrote it down. She watched. And then Martin said, it's just too much for me to watch because I don't think she took her blood pressure medicine like she should have flushed these down the toilet. And with one flush, they were gone. Wow. You are hearing me speaking to my longtime colleague and friend over at HLN,

Jean Casares. As we discuss the evidence in this case, sounds like the son's girlfriend, Eileen Hang, states that she was asked to flush down all of Michelle's pills as a favor. A favor to who and why? She says one flush and they were all gone. I mean, Stephen Lampley at StephenLampley.com, detective, tampering with evidence at a scene, that disturbs me because how do you know what those pills are? Why would he want them flushed down the commode? Why wouldn't he want the cops to see them? I mean, if she had taken too many pain pills and gone underwater and died, why would you want to get rid of all that evidence, Steve Lampley? Well, Nancy, in this case, he had actually asked the surgeon who performed the surgery to prescribe additional medications to his wife that normally, even the doctor that prescribed them said normally these were not prescribed, apparently in an attempt to over-medicate her.

Wait, okay, so Martin McNeil asked for additional pain pills? Yes, Nancy. According to what I read, he asked the surgeon who was going to prescribe X number of prescriptions. I don't know how many there were, maybe two or three. And then he went on to ask the physician who did the surgery, would you prescribe this or this as well, which she did. Listen to this. So she's been pronounced dead one hour and he's going back doing a pill count. What was his reasoning for doing a pill count, Jean? Because he was concerned

that she wasn't taking the high blood pressure medicine that she should be taking. She had just been prescribed high blood pressure medicine. Well, what about all those other pills they flushed down the commode? Not mentioned. Not mentioned. Take a listen to what just happened in court. Martin seemed frustrated, and he's like, I don't want to do this anymore. And then he asked me to flush the pills down the toilet. And did you do that? Yes.

Did that request seem strange to you? At the time, it did seem strange, yes. Why did you comply with that request? Because he asked me to and he just lost his wife and I wanted to help. Okay. How many flushes did it take to get the pills gone? Just one. I believe that they were in the plastic container. So I just dumped the plastic container, the pills in the plastic container into the toilet. And that way no one could ever know what pills were prescribed and how many pills were missing. That's what that says to me. Of course, I have that suspicious mind. And you know, Wendy Patrick, that's something you can't get rid of. And I

don't know if you're the same way, Chris Berry. Wendy, regardless of where I go or what I see, I can't help it. I memorize license tags on cars. I do mental descriptions of people, blah, blah, blah. It goes on and on and on. I can't help but look at the world this way after years and years and years of training in court. Why is this man counting pills and directing someone else to flush them down the commode? Why does he care if she didn't take her blood pressure medicine? She's dead.

Yeah, great points, Nancy. It sounds like you would make a great trial witness. You're the dream witness that actually pays attention and remembers all of these details. But you're right. I mean, jurors get this. Of course you would be concerned with the deceased, with your loved one. Not these ancillary details just happened rather than, like you say, counting pills, whether somebody had taken blood pressure medication. All of that will come far afterwards after the grieving process has been completed. You know, I got a bigger problem. But hold on. Let me go back to Chris Perry with me, retired chief medical examiner, Dr. Chris Perry. I don't like the sound of it, Chris, about somebody getting rid of pills on the scene. Why would he do that? He's not only a lawyer, he's a doctor

like you. Oh, I don't like the sound of it either. I mean, you're absolutely correct. Number one, he's destroying potential evidence because that's the numbers of pills, how many have been taken, how many are left behind. That's crucial information for the police and the medical examiner. And also notice he's involving someone else. I mean, this to me, this just screams that he is not only destroying evidence, but he's creating an alibi by having someone, an uninvolved person with him to participate in this, to somehow establish legitimacy for what he is doing. Well, listen to this, Dr. Sperry, I need you on this because

according to neighbors, they run Rushin and they see McNeil working to revive his wife, but they say McNeil was performing a quote, bizarrely ineffective CPR on Michelle. What could that mean, a bizarrely ineffective? How are you supposed to perform CPR? I mean, I learned it when I was a camp counselor, okay, but that was a long time ago. What should he have done? He should have been pushing on the chest, in the middle of the chest. Whoa, back it up, back it up.

Don't you have to go down on a hard surface? You can't do it on a bed. Didn't you learn anything from the Michael Jackson case? Well, yes, that's exactly it. Thank you. I take those things for granted. I take such joy in correcting an MD because it never happens ever. Okay, go ahead.

Well, you know, like I said, there's things I take for granted. Let me enjoy my moment. It's the details. It's the details. Well, no, you put the person on a hard surface, yes. You can't do CPR on a bed effectively at all. You have to have them on the floor to start with. And then you have to push on the front of the chest, the center of the chest.

You push hard enough that you're pumping blood, making the heart pump blood. But of course, you don't want to push too hard, but that's difficult unless you're Hulk Hogan. And intermittently, you stop and give breath. That is, you give rescue breath to the person. So usually it's about 15 pumps and then two breaths and alternating that back and forth to try to get air into the person's lungs and to keep the blood circulating as best as possible to get oxygen to the tissues. And this is something that you do and repeat. this because according to witnesses, Dr. McNeil had Michelle slumped down in the bathtub still and was, quote, performing CPR on her as she slumped over in the bathtub. You know, wouldn't you at least lay her flat in the bathtub and jump down into the bathtub and straddle her? I mean, again, I'm not an MD, but I think that's what I would try to do. If I can't get the person out of the tub, I mean, you should see my son, Chris. You wouldn't believe it.

He's now almost 5'8". He's 11. I call him my big horse, affectionately, of course. And, I mean, if I had to perform CPR on somebody I couldn't lift, I'd jump in the tub and straddle them and try it that way. But she slumped over. Nobody, you know, the neighbor remembers it very well. Yeah, that's just, that sounds so strange. You know, especially if he's a trained physician, he's going to know that you have to have the person flat. And if he can't get his wife out

of the bathtub, well, you're right. You get in there with her. It's a big, a big tub and there's space for everybody. Okay, so we already know he was not getting the adequate chest compression because of the angle of Michelle. Even a neighbor untrained in medical procedures knew that. Okay, Karen Stark, are you sitting down right now? I need to know. Of course I am. Okay, you better lay down for this. Listen. Your mother had a funeral on the Saturday following her death. Oh, yes.

Following the funeral, was there a gathering with family for a lunch? Yes. Was your father present? Yes. Uh, did you observe his demeanor at that luncheon? Yes. What was he doing? He was making jokes about being single and just laughing, and it made me sick.

I've left. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Your mother had a funeral on the Saturday following her death. Oh, yes. Following the funeral, was there a gathering with family for a lunch? Your mother had a funeral on the Saturday following her death. Yes. Following the funeral, was there a gathering with family for a lunch? Yes. Was your father present?

Yes. What was he doing? He was making jokes about being single and just laughing, and it made me sick. I've left. You just heard Michelle McNeil's daughter describing her father joking at her mom's funeral. Quote, I'm a single man now. What? Now I know that defense attorneys would have a field day with me arguing that's probative. But Karen Stark, what do you make of Dr. Martin McNeil, doctor and lawyer? He's the one that wants her to get a facelift. You've seen her pictures, Karen Starr. And everybody, you can see her photos at CrimeOnline.com.

She's gorgeous. She doesn't need a facelift. Now, that's me on the outside looking in. He's the one that makes her get a facelift. He's the one that overprescribes, gets a lot, a lot, a lot of painkillers. He's the one that finds the body along with his little girl. He's the one that performs the fake CPR on her. And now he's laughing about being single at her funeral. Well, Nancy, he's a psychopath. So none of this is the least bit

surprising to me. I don't even have to sit down. Psychopaths cannot form emotional attachments or feel real empathy for others. And they often mimic emotions. So he doesn't even have any feelings. He doesn't know, in this case, to pretend that he should be feeling bad about what happened. He's going to totally disregard the fact that this is a funeral and he's narcissistic. So he's going to totally disregard the fact that this is a funeral and he's narcissistic. So he's going to talk about being single and what's next for him. Okay. So Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, author of Red Flags, weigh in on that, please. I mean, at the funeral, I guess it could be argued that he was out of his mind with grief. Yeah, that's a really tough one, though, because after a funeral, after we've just been discussing the death of a loved one,

and there no doubt were people sharing memories, to be discussing the fact that you are now a single man is inappropriate however you look at it. Even, and I appreciate Karen's comments, I think they're right on the money, that would be something a jury would pick up on probably more than physical evidence, that how do you behave right after suffering this type of a loss, and what does that say about your state of mind? This is very powerful evidence. And it's kind of that instinctive evidence that everyone knows is wrong and everyone knows is suspicious.

And that is exactly what you have here. It's almost as if he couldn't contain himself from expressing the way he really felt about the death. Take a listen to our friends at Oxygen. A few days after her mother's death, Alexis starts piecing things together. contain himself from expressing the way he really felt about the death. Take a listen to our friends at Oxygen. A few days after her mother's death, Alexis starts piecing things together. I thought about phone calls at bizarre hours. My mom was concerned that my father was having an affair.

Him giving her too much medication after the procedure. All of my mom's things that were in the room were now gone. It was like a bolt of lightning. It's going right through me. You were hearing the daughter looking back on what was happening around the time of her mom's death. You know, to you, Stephen Lampley, a detective at StephenLampley.com, this woman, I don't think they've even had her funeral yet, and he's cleaning out all of her stuff and getting rid of it, carting it off to Goodwill. Yeah, that's an indicator. Everything else being equal as long as through the investigation and everything. And then you have somebody show up at a funeral and then go home and start cleaning house. Red flag. Yeah, red flag. Wendy, you can add that into your book. Red flags, Stephen Lampley. And

Dave Mack, I don't know if you heard the daughter, but didn't I hear her say something about affair? Aren't you leaving out another piece of the puzzle, David Mack? Nancy, there was another, a number of affairs, but the one she's referring to is the one that came up. Wait, wait, wait, a number of affairs? A number of affairs? Why was she even still with him? Why not just marry the yard dog out front and the lounging on the porch? I mean, a number of affairs. Nancy, you know, as well as I do, that most of us don't know the inner workings of a marriage between a couple and the reasons they may or may not stay together. That's very true, Dave Mack, but I know what AFFAIR means. That typically means your husband is sleeping around. And as I always say, open marriage,

open casket. That's what I always say to David. But long story short, a number of affairs. When you say that, I guarantee it's not Michelle McNeil having a number of affairs. It's Dr. Martin McNeil. Does the name Gypsy ring a bell in your mind, Dave Mack? Yes, ma'am. She was the main affair. She came up right after. Do you want to deal with when they actually brought her into this whole thing? Because it's sickening. I love this part. Okay, yeah, again, please, Karen Stark, you're very delicate. Lay down for this, please. All right. Gypsy was one of the affairs. Well, actually, it was the affair that was going on at the time Michelle was murdered. And at the funeral where Martin was acting inappropriately,

there was mention of needing a nanny to help out with the younger kids. And he presented this person, Gypsy, as somebody that needs to be the nanny to help me care for the children. But according to the kids, Gypsy prepared one meal and then spent her time at night, not downstairs in her nanny room, but upstairs in daddy's room with the door shut. He had been involved, Martin had been involved with this Gypsy for some time. Dr. Chris Berry, how many times do you see a woman end up dead, a wife, and then you find out the husband's having an affair? An affair does not a killer make. But if you look back on wives ending up dead at the hands of their husbands, very often you find affairs.

So I guess the converse would be true. It's the same old story, Dr. Chris Berry. It definitely is. It shows that there has been planning, very careful planning, in fact, planning to exit the marriage, because the man is already taking up with someone else, abruptly, out of nowhere, seemingly. And so all of this makes the death of the wife very, very, very suspicious. There are no coincidences that you know in the world and I don't think this is a coincidence at all this this screams

planning to me not just happenstance take a listen to this he said he gave her some oxy and some sleeping pills and then got her to get in the bathtub did he say what he did next later on he just said he had to help her out. And I asked him what that was. And he said he held her head under the water for a little while. He said that she was in the way, that she wanted the house and the kids. He said they couldn't prove that he, you know, did anything. Wow. You're hearing from a then friend of Dr. Martin McNeil, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, author of Red Flags on Amazon. You know what? Sometimes you got to go to hell to get your witnesses, to put the devil in jail.

How many times have I had to tell that to a jury when I had a stinky witness? Long story short, Wendy, why do people blab? Why can't they just shut the hay up? Yeah, you know, Nancy, part of the way in which many cases are proven is exactly like this. This is obviously after the fact or before the fact, whatever it is, it doesn't matter. People tend to talk about what they did. And I'm sure Karen and the other psychologists that join us on the show can explain exactly why that is human nature to even talk about the sins and the crimes you've committed. But people do it, and law enforcement and good law enforcement techniques take advantage of that, and that's exactly what happened here. In case you're wondering, listen. We, the jury, having reviewed the evidence in the testimony in the case by the defendant,

as to count one, murder, guilty. As to count two, obstruction of justice, guilty. I should count two obstruction of justice guilty. Martin McNeil, the doctor and lawyer, found guilty of murdering wife Michelle McNeil. But that's not the end of the story. Dave Mack, what's the final end of the story? Martin McNeil was actually, he apparently committed suicide while in prison. He was found in the yard area, unresponsive. He had threatened suicide in the past. That was his go-to response whenever he was caught doing something. And apparently he was successful once he was in prison. This guy, Dr. Martin McNeil, I don't know how he kept practicing medicine, had been thrown out of Brigham Young Health Center because of unprofessional conduct, misdiagnoses,

allegations of sex assaults, pornography, had affairs with multiple people. One of the women said she was dating a quote serial killer because McNeil had told her he had killed his brother in a bathtub and tried to kill his mother when he was young. I mean, I don't even have time to read the list of offenses this guy got away with, and he took them all to his grave. I got one thing to say, good riddance. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.