Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 'Black Widow' murders husband, then targets, kills her 'lookalike' to assume her identity! Nabbed at high-end resort scoping 3d victim? PLUS: Country music, TLC reality star child sex abuse charges

Episode Date: April 25, 2018

Lois Riess's cross-country road trip ended on the Texas coast after a stop in Florida, where she allegedly murdered a look-alike to steal her identity. It began in Minnesota, allegedly with the murder of her husband. Nancy Grace digs into the case with lawyer Jason Oshins, psycho analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, and reporter John Lemley. The oldest daughter of country music's Willis Family is speaking up about the sex abuse that put her father, reality star Toby Willis, in prison. Nancy looks at the latest with forensic psychiatrist Dr. Carole Lieberman, private investigator Vincent Hill, psychologist Lauren Howard, juvenile Judge Ashley Willcott, lawyer Troy Slaten, and reporter Jennifer Dzikowski. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. A high school girl, straight A's, a hockey star, a lacrosse star, is found brutally murdered and buried in a shallow grave at a local park, Lincoln Park. Her boyfriend is soon identified and he's convicted of the murder. But now after a high profile podcast called Serial insists that he's innocent, is he getting a new trial and set to walk to add insult to injury? The victim, little Hay, Hay Lee's family cannot speak English. They and she have no voice. Well, you know what? They're getting one. They're getting a voice. Lady Justice, are you listening? A&E, Thursday night, 11 p.m. We want justice for Hay Lee. And that means to many court watchers that her killer Adnan Syed stays behind bars. Thursday night, 11 p.m. A&E, Grace versus Abrams. Please join us.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph 132. A man ends up dead on his farm. No one knows for about two weeks because he doesn't show up to his job. What happened? He's shot multiple times, and guess what's missing over eleven thousand dollars from his checking account and his wife lois reese a platinum blonde who then turns up a at a casino having a good old time and then in florida in fort myers she spotted on closed circuit tv surveillance video at smoking oyster brewery chatting up another woman at the bar and again she's having a great time they're drinking they're talking they're laughing

she's really holding court at this bar smoking oyster brewery it just sounds like a good time, right? Well, that woman, Pam Hutchison, guess what? She bears an amazing similarity, a semblance to Lois, whose husband happens to end up dead on a worm farm. And lo and behold, just hours later, Pam ends up dead too, missing her car and all of her identity. That's right. Lois Reese on the run, assuming her doppelganger's identity. I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I want to go first to John Limley. John, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Start at the beginning and give me a capsulization of Lois Reese's rampage. Nancy, it was a month ago that David Reese's business partner called authorities to ask them to check on him. The partner said no one at work had seen David Reese in more than two weeks. And after an exhaustive search at his home, they then went to his farm. And that is where they discover David Reese's body. And? He had been shot multiple times, and they weren't able to determine how long he had been

dead over that past two weeks. And another person was missing. They could not find his wife, Lois. Now, they very quickly learned that Lois may have been at a casino in Iowa, but she wasn't there when they went looking for her. Now, from there, she was believed to have made a beeline for Florida. That's where investigators alleged that she killed 59-year-old Pamela Hutchinson of Bradenton, Florida, who was in town actually to be with a friend who had just lost her husband, and they were going to spread his ashes in the water there in Fort Myers, Florida. Pam was really only planning on staying in Fort Myers a couple of days and presumably toward the end of her trip, she stopped by to grab a bite at Smokin' Oyster

Brewery, just a couple of blocks from her condo. And it's there that she meets and strikes up a conversation with a visitor in the city, a woman that we now know was Lois Reese. It's around the same time that Pam's family and friends noticed something rather odd. Pam is really big on posting on Facebook, and those Facebook posts come to an abrupt halt. How do we know, joining me, Alexis Tereschuk from RadarOnline.com, how do we know that it was Lois Reese that found her doppelganger and assumed Pam Hutchison's identity after killing her? How do we know she ever made it to Pam Hutchison's condo? Well, the police have evidence that she was there. She stole Pam's credit cards, her bank account information, and even her ID and leaves her condo and goes out, goes to the bank and gets $5,000 out from the bank cash by using her Pamela's ID. I guess they,

the teller didn't even notice that they weren't, they weren't the same person. So she's caught on camera there. They see her, they've got her her and then she goes on a nationwide what's the word spending spree i guess so because she's got all this money from her dead victims to john limley there's also closed circuit video i think relating to the condo yes uh this is before she gets to the condo it's thanks to surveillance video there at the restaurant that we know how and when the paths of Lois Reitz and Pam Hutchinson first crossed. We see them seated at the bar chatting, having a great time. Lois was on the run, and she saw her chance to gain more time and gain a possible cover. Lois realized that she and this woman at the bar, Pam Hutchison,

looked a lot alike. Her plan was to assume this woman's identity. So Lois quickly befriends Pam and somehow, we're not exactly sure how, finagles her way into Pam's condo. Two days later, after a man staying in the room above where Pam was staying, started smelling a strange odor. That's when he contacted the management of the condo building. They opened up Pam's condo and discovered her body is there. She's been shot. She's covered in blood and covered with a pile of towels. You know, that's very odd.

Dr. Bethany Marshall, L.A. Psychoanalyst, joining us. I found, this is just anecdotal, it's not a statistical study, Dr. Bethany, that so often killers will take the time to cover up the face of the victim. I know in one case, a girl murders her mother and puts a trash basket, a wicker basket, over her head. I had cases where people were murdered in the, out in the open and they would put leaves over the body. In this case, she put towels over it. There's also surveillance video guys of her at the condo. That's how we know

she was at the condo. Surveillance video. She's walking out of the condo with a plastic bag not only that when she turns up at a five-star resort shortly after she spotted walking across the lobby wearing Pam Hutcherson's straw hat she is actually sporting her murder victim's hat so Dr. Bethany, two things in a nutshell. Why cover up your dead victim face? And second, does this woman know no shame? She's even wearing the dead lady's hat. It's so perverse. You know, I often think you can tell how premeditated a murder is by how well the body is covered up and whether or not the perpetrator has prepared a dump site

and a place to secrete the body. And in this case, it seems as hasty as, I don't know, shoplifting a target. Like she finds a woman who looks like her, follows her to the condo, shoots her. I think maybe covers her up with towels too because she doesn't want too much blood to go all over the places.

And she also doesn't want to have to see what she's done. Right there, Dr. Bethany, I don't think they give a fig about the blood when you shoot somebody multiple times. You know there's going to be blood. There's something about covering up their face, Dr. Bethany Marshall. Sometimes I think they don't want to see the victim looking back at them. I've thought a lot about this because it seems that no matter what the MO is, that the perpetrator does tend to cover up the victim's face. And sometimes I think, do they just not want to see the deceased? Do they not want to see their own handiwork? Maybe they just want to deny to

themselves all the destruction that they've created. You know, it goes back further even than the murder of the husband. Jason Oceans, defense attorney joining me out of the New York area. Jason, we've looked into some court records and they show that Lois Reese was kicked out as guardian for her disabled sister because of a report. Lois had been transferring lois reese transferring funds from one account to her own account and then withdrawing the funds where else jason a casino so we got a gambling problem and uh the means to solve it is to steal money and then commit murder. Perfect plan.

And that was in 2005. We got a hold of an affidavit that said thousands had been spent somewhere called Diamond Joe Casino in Iowa, not too far from her Blooming Prairie home. She was never charged with a crime, but she was ordered to pay back over $100,000. She was probably charged with something, and that was the plea arrangement to come up with restitution. So, you know, birds of a feather. I mean, she had a premeditated, as Dr. Bethany said,

and this is well thought out, and she has an M.O. in in her background jason birds of a feather flock together does not apply to this because she's not flocking with anybody i think the proper one would be when you don't know a horse look at its track record because she's got a long track record unless you know of another bird flocking with her i hope you're ashamed i am thank you for correcting me okay good good good to know good jason you're always so right. I have to use anything I have to fight you, okay? So, Joe Scott Morgan. I appreciate that. Okay, Joseph Scott Morgan, help me out now.

Because it's like there's no shame and no fear. When you go into a casino, there are more surveillance video cameras than NASA, for Pete's sake. And she's killing and murdering and stealing and then going to casinos and tromping around, flouncing, flouncing. Let me pull that out of the drawer. Flouncing, as my grandmother used to say, across the lobbies of five-star resorts and casinos wearing the dead victim's hat. Joe Scott? Yeah, isn't that kind of bizarre? We're talking about face covering for a moment where, in my experience, they have this period of time where they don't want to look at the face because they're kind of ashamed of what they've done.

But yet she goes and puts on this woman's hat and goes to one of the most public locations she possibly could, where she can be observed from multiple points and walks around as this person. It's very bizarre. And also, it's almost like she's jacked up in the sense that she's on a rush or something. She's got all of this money. She's traveling across the country under an assumed identity, and she's blowing it. She's got all of this money. She's traveling across the country under an assumed identity, and she's blowing it.

She's blowing it every, it's like she has nothing else to live for. And it's scary. It's scary in the fact that, thank God that no one else has gotten into her path who she could destroy their lives. A woman who investigators believe murdered her husband in Minnesota

then goes to Florida, where she uses the very same gun, according to the ammo comparison, to slay her doppelganger, her lookalike to assume her identity, Pam Hutchinson, has been captured where else? At a South Texas resort.

To John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter, tell me, how was Lois Reese finally captured? Where is she now? Well, the man who actually recognized Lois Reese, who was wanted for these murders, of her husband and the woman that she resembled, told authorities that it was her hair that gave her away. She was spotted sipping a drink at the bar inside the Sea Ranch restaurant

in South Padre Island, Texas. From all accounts, it appears she was cool as a cucumber until the marshals arrived to take her into custody. The restaurant's manager, Becky Galvin, told the Washington Press that they had received a call from another restaurant before that, that she had been spotted. The authorities just missed her there, but they were able to catch up with her, realize she was on her way into this restaurant, and alerted the restaurant staff realized she was on her way into this restaurant and alerted the restaurant staff that she was coming in. Well, this is what we know. We know that she was only

27 miles from the Mexican border. Alexis, while there is a lot, a lot you have to go through to go from, come from Mexico into the U.S., to go from the U.S. into Mexico, people just fly right across the border, 27 miles from the Mexican border. Alexis? Absolutely. It's fairly easy to get into Mexico. I've been in the car asleep one time when we drove through. So she could have done it very easily, and she had thousands of dollars.

She actually stole $11,000 from her husband. I don't know if that's stealing, but I'm going to call it stealing. And then she had another $5,000 from Pamela. So she was flush with cash. She could have easily made it work, but she was so brazen in these restaurants, just eating out in public, not even like drive-through fast food where there maybe would have been less cameras, but she just was not afraid to be out in public well you know what's freaky catch this uh tell me where you think this is headed dr bethany marshall i'm looking at the video right now of when lois reese is arrested by fugitive magistrates the video shows her walking into the restaurant and taking a seat at the edge of the bar where she always does.

She orders a glass of wine. Right. And an entree. And she eats for over an hour befriending another woman at the bar in the process. You know what that was, how that was going to end, right, Bethany? Absolutely. This is her offending pattern, right? She finds someone who looks just like her, kills that person, assumes their identity, steals their money, and then runs out of cash. Then she has to find a new victim. Nancy, I read one report where apparently she and her husband had some couple friends. And the wife of the couple was in the garage and looked up and there was Lois Reese writing down the address numbers to that couple's house. And I don't know if you read that report and that she felt very freaked out. She had heard that Lois

was on the lam and she became afraid that perhaps she was going to be Lois' next victim. It sounds like Lois hung around their neighborhood for about a week before moving on to another bar, and like serial killers do, looking for another victim. She was befriending another woman at the bar, Alexis Tereszczuk, just like she did Pam Hutchison before she gets access to her condo and murders her to steal her identity. I guarantee you she was there to kill the woman, get her identity and cross over to the Mexican border. I'd be very interested to find out what that woman looked like. Exactly. This is exactly what she does. And that's why she, it's so strange that she didn't change her hair color because

the platinum white blonde is so noticeable. If she'd gone brown, she probably could have found a lot more people that look just like her that could have been her victims. Luckily, these guys, these bartenders were so smart and they noticed this. I don't know that I ever noticed anybody sitting next to me in a restaurant. So I really give them a lot of thanks for catching this lady. Well, we also know this to John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter. It never ends with this woman. When police search her hotel room, they find a 22 and a nine, both in her room. What about that? It was not over yet for her. She had a lot of plans of murder and embezzling and stealing money ahead. Absolutely. And when they were able to get into Pam Hutchison's room, discovered that a lot of the items that Lois had with her when she was found in Texas, that woman's credit ID and her vehicle as well. She swapped vehicles there in Fort Myers before she started that 1300 mile trip that as of last Friday had her in Texas, very close to the border,

then making the jump to the island. And she was staying there in South Padre Island in a $59-a-night room at Motel 6. Yeah, she had left the fancy resort and was scoping out her next victim. Take a listen to this. The detectives from both here and the other two states are still collecting and comprising all the evidence. And it looks like she'll be transferred to county for a short stint. And then as soon as the extradition takes place, it looks like she's going to be going to Florida first. And they're also trying to move some of the evidence, like the car, towards Florida. We also know when she goes into court she's wearing hot pants okay i mean this woman i mean this woman lois reese has just been apprehended after her murder and let me just say pilfering spree she would find a victim steal all

their money kill them and assume their identity as a of fact, take a listen to her at Come and Go Gas Station in Iowa. This is the day her husband's body was found, but she had something else on her mind. Hello. Hey. All right. No worries. How's it going? No.

Okay. Maybe nine. I mean, she really 35 goes through, goes down to Omaha, like past Omaha and all that. Okay, well, thank you. I mean, she really, Joe Scott Morgan, like so many other killers we've dealt with, she really knows how to put on a facade, okay, thank you. And I'm sure she sashayed right out of those hot pants, straight to her car. I mean, really. Yeah, that's what's scary for people out in the general public.

I think that a lot of the people out there think that these people are just going to be monsters, that they're going to have fangs and that they're, you know, with blood dripping from the tips of their fingers. And that's not it. This woman's very disarming. You listen to the way she's having this conversation with this gentleman at the station there, just calmly getting directions just like any of us would. Hey, what's the best route to take? And she even thanks him as she's walking out the door. This lady does not come off as a monster. No, not at all. Well, take a listen, guys. You're safe from Lois Reese for now anyway. I wouldn't put her in a transport van to save my neck. She'll charm the driver, slit his throat,

and drive straight to the slot machines if she gets the chance. Take a listen to Lee County, Florida, Under Sheriff Carmine Marcino. This case from the very beginning struck me as odd. We look at her appearance. She looks like anybody's mother or grandmother, yet she's an absolute cold-blooded murderer. So today's a huge win.

She can't strike again. That was our main concern. We bring a killer off the streets. Very, very important. Our detectives right now are working as we speak because everything's so fresh and new, but we want her back here in Fort Myers. Will she be taken to Minnesota or here first? Again, right now,

everything's fresh and new. Our detectives are on the ground right now working to see exactly where she's going to be. So there is a legal process. So it's just take a little bit of time. But again, we want her here in Fort Myers to face the charges she has. When we see her mugshot that was most recently taken, I asked to both of you, sometimes when people run, they try to alter their appearance, change their hair color, do something. None of that here. Absolutely. As you can see in our video surveillance, when she befriends Pam Hutchinson, our victim, unfortunately, she's smiling. So what does that tell you about her? Okay. She's not, she's running, but guess what? She's not changing her appearance. She's living life one day, signing the victim's credit card in her name the next her own so this is a stone cold killer they climbed to the top of the country music charts i'm talking about the willis clan there were 12 willis clan siblings and to look at them it was picture perfect consider the country music answer to the

von trapp family from the sound of music who were also a real family they seemingly had it all beautiful home wonderful career hit country music over and over and over but one of the daughters now writes the truth of what I was living every day was nothing like what people saw on the outside what we are learning now the Willis clan sister Jessica now describing how she says her father began molesting her when she was just three years old and explained what finally drives her to escape the family, the Willis family, with their own reality show on TLC, a thriving business in the country music world. But it wasn't worth it. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Take a listen to this.

I didn't speak up. It's because it was like, this is so insane and crazy. Like, who's going to believe me? How are people going to deal with this? What held me back from talking, I mean, all for the years and growing up was the unknown I didn't know what was gonna happen and everything that I could have had as a kid could have been taken away instantly I had no idea what was gonna happen I didn't know if I was gonna have my mom and my siblings there for me. Well, I think we all held a black box in our hearts of memories, regrets, fears, and we hit them pretty deep. That are some of the Willis family siblings speaking out exclusively to DailyMail.com. Straight out to heavy.com's reporter jennifer tsikowski jennifer thank you so much

for being with us i'm a huge country music fan in fact a highlight for me was when i took my mom and dad to the grand old opry and i'm planning to take my children back to the grand old opry in may i mean that's just one of those those incredible things you just don't want to miss in a lifetime, right? It's hard to take in because we've been seeing the Willis family in their reality show on TLC for such a long time. They've had one hit after the next with their band, the Willis Clan. But according to Jessica, it's all a big and horrible lie. That is true. That's exactly what Jessica Willis Fisher laid out in her recent blog. Jessica was the lead singer in the Willis clan, and she opened up in her blog post about the abuse, both sexual abuse and physical abuse, that she endured for over 20 years at the hands of her father, Toby Willis. What does she say in her blog? With me, heavy.com reporter Jennifer

Tskowski. Okay, so Jessica said her father, who was really the patriarch of the family, he controlled every aspect of her life for her and her 12 siblings. She said there was a constant current of manipulation, domination, fear, and favor. Toby Willis was so manipulative and quite honestly seemed to be a master of brainwashing because he got all of his victims, his own flesh and blood daughters, to believe that they individually were the only victims. Jessica said she believed her father began sexually abusing her at around age three years old, just three years old. And she added that the horrifying acts began as far back as she could remember.

In her own words, Nancy, Jessica said the abuse developed and ebbed at various intervals over the years and into puberty. The most graphic sexual abuse faded off for me when I was around 17 years old, but many inappropriate actions and attentions continued. Now, what exactly those actions and attentions are, we don't know. So, Toby Willis, she goes on to say that he was physically abusive. According to Jessica, this monster of a father had forbidden her to see her boyfriend, who is now her husband. And that boyfriend had figured out that something wasn't right. You know, I'm interested in something else, Jennifer, and I'm going to get you to pick up where you're leaving off, but I want to ask you a quick question with me from heavy.com reporter, investigative reporter Jennifer Sikowski, and we are talking about the highly

popular Willis Clan country music band, also the subject of the TLC reality show the Willis family a big hit for TLC I want to think about the mother for a moment the mother in this scenario so if the abuse started happening when the little when the child was three years old when Jessica's just three years old just let that sink in for a moment and then it started waning when she was 17 sexually anyway that's 14 years the mom didn't know what was going on she states that she became aware she Jessica that what was happening to her was not appropriate when she was about nine years old and her mother got suspicious. Around nine years old, she writes, quote, something, I'm still not sure what, caused my mother to become suspicious of my father's interactions. I didn't realize

there was zero evidence of anything specific and all I did was nod when a few general questions were asked by my mother. I heard my mother raise her voice to my father for the first time in my life and I thought the adults would figure it out. I didn't understand my father simply denied wrongdoing and became more secretive and dangerous from then on. So the mother suspected, but apparently did nothing for, let's see, that would mean the next eight years. As Jessica gets older, she began suspecting her father was abusing her sisters, but none would ever come out and say that.

So to Troy Slayton, defense attorney joining me right now, abusing her sisters, but none would ever come out and say that. So to Troy Slayton, defense attorney joining me right now, what position does that leave the mom in? I mean, the mom is not abusing her, but the mom suspects, according to Jessica, that she as a little child is being sex abused by her country music star dad and does nothing. Is that okay, Troy? It's certainly not okay. And it places her in not only criminal jeopardy, but civil jeopardy as well. A parent is in a special relationship with a child, like a doctor and a patient or a teacher and a student, if one of those people who you are duty-bound by law to protect, if you fail to protect and report that person, then you're guilty of a crime.

Well, here's the other issue to Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge and founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com. Ashley, the mother did not abuse her from what we know, neither beating nor sex abusing. Okay. But we do know, according to the victim, the alleged victim, Jessica, that her mother became suspicious after six years of sex abuse by her dad, starts asking questions, has a fight with the dad about it but the dad stays in the home i mean how can the i mean the mom their country music stars they're pictured on the stage how can the mom be afraid to speak out take a listen to america's got talent where the Willis clan were big hits.

Listen. Listen. These are a few of my favorite things La-la-la-la La-la-la-la La-la-la-la A few of my favorite things Say girls in white dresses With gifts and sessions No thanks, that's all I want

No thanks, that's all I want Silver white winters And many interesting things These are a few of my favorite things Get out of your calendar. Silver white winters, I'm not interested. These are a few of my favorite things. When the door bites, when the bees sting, when I'm feeling sad. Good voice. Send me, remember my favorite things, and then I don't feel so bad. Back to you, Ashley Wilcott. What about the mom in this scenario?

Listen, Nancy, all I can say is when I'm on the bench, I see this all the time. I don't understand it. But a parent, instead of protecting their own children, says nothing and sides with the abusive spouse, father, mother in the home. I don't get it. I don't know why, but this woman failed to protect the children. She could have had the children taken away from her had anyone disclosed when they were younger. And in fact, she can be criminally charged. Well, while on tour in the past couple of years. She, Jessica, says she arrives in her hotel room to find her sisters and mother gathered and distraught after one of them had been molested. Quote, I came into my hotel room that night to find my mother and some of my sisters sitting on the bed crying with that look on their face I had seen so many times before. Quote,

The coldest, blackest pit opened up in my stomach because no words needed to be said for me to know something had happened. How was I here again? Things were not over. They had never been over. Sex abuse was still happening, and I knew it, she wrote. She confronted her father and threatened to leave, but carried on living with them and the tour kept going on. They quote, put on their show faces. Lauren Howard, psychologist, you know, as much as we want to trash the whole family that stood by and let this happen many of some of them may have been

sex abuse victims as well how do these victims these children carry on as if nothing's happening everything's fine and what about the mom this is a cult it is the fact that they're genetically connected is irrelevant this is a cult and they are being controlled by the leader of the cult, which is the father. To blame the mother for not taking care of her children is to not understand that she also is a victim of abuse, whether it's physical or psychological. You have to understand that this is – it takes a village for good to prevail. It also takes a village for good to prevail. It also takes a village for evil to prevail. This is people gathered together, saving face, shamed. The eldest sister, Jessica, has enormous guilt. She doesn't want to destroy her family, destroy her mother.

She now is dealing with the fact that had she called it out earlier, that she could have perhaps prevented this from happening to her younger siblings. Believe it or not, Nancy, I have seen this in families way too often for my lifetime. And usually they're smaller families, not that many families have 12 kids. But I have seen it in families of four, and everybody ducks and covers. And that is why it takes so long. I understand. Also, for Jessica, when she was three years old and this began, she didn't understand something was wrong. She was a three-year-old. Daddy was playing with her. She didn't know what that all meant.

It wasn't until she was nine that she started to realize this is actually not okay. These kids are homeschooled. They're very much contained, kept away from the rest of society. Their privileges are very controlled. Their entire being is controlled. So really, the only positive thing they have in their life is their performance and their showmanship. So you can't blame the mother. And you have to understand the other piece of it, which is the child is made to feel that they are really special, that daddy favors them. Right.

And this is what they know of love. Well, you know, Ashley Wilcott with me, juvenile judge, also with me, Dr. Carol Lieberman, forensic psychiatrist and author of a brand new book on Amazon, Lions and Tigers and Terrorists, my, how to keep your kids safe. You know, Dr. Carol, I hear Lauren, but as far as your own safety, that's one thing if you're afraid of the husband, but when multiple children of yours are being beaten and sex molested and you stand by and do nothing, I got a problem with that, Carol. Yes, absolutely. I really don't agree with that. You know, it's interesting how Jessica tries to protect her family, her mother, her siblings. You know, she talks about her siblings in a very interesting way that like they were, they each came from different perspectives. They were each different

ages. So they couldn't really explain to each other what was going on. She tries to protect them all. But really, I mean, if the mother suspected something, I mean, certainly she should have suspected before nine, before Jessica was nine. But given that she didn't until nine, that is when she should have absolutely done something about it. And, you know, what hasn't been said yet is about, you know, yes, the father, Jessica said the father was very violent and the mother was, you know, probably threatened the mother, possibly with hurting the children if she told and so on. That's still no

excuse. But there's also the issue of show business and fame. These people didn't want to wreck the act, you know, because they didn't want to get out of being famous. Take a listen to the Willis clan. The first time I was able to tell my story was after one of my sisters told her story. And it was like, wow. Oh, my gosh, I'm not the only one. We are talking about a country music star in her own right. Her name is jessica willis she's from the willis clan band

and from the reality show on tlc the willis family show i mean to jennifer zakowski with heavy.com what is it with tlc first there was the duggar family but what was that 21 and counting or 18 and counting or something and counting and there was abuse alleged sex abuse in that family it was one of the siblings male siblings allegedly abusing the sisters okay there's that one and now this what's with that Jennifer it's absolutely crazy absolutely ludicrous that both happen to be covered by TLC. And there are so many similarities between the Duggars and the Willis family. So obviously they were both very large families.

The Duggars had 19 children. The Willises had 12. They all homeschooled their children. And both had the TLC shows and both were connected with sexual abuse. Um, they were also, all the children were named with J's, which is, that was just another interesting part of it all. Um, the differences, the, the Duggars seem to have forgiven, for the most part, Josh Duggar,

you know, saying that he was only 14 and 15 years old when he molested his sisters and also a babysitter. Whereas the Willis family is standing behind the victims. And Brenda immediately divorced toby but like you said in the past you know whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa immediately divorced this child jessica now a an adult female started being molested according to to her, at age three. The mom only started, asked a couple of questions when she's age nine. And then, according to reports, chose to believe the dad over the children. That is not getting a divorce immediately. Now, I know you're the investigative reporter, but that doesn't sound immediate to me. I mean, it goes from age 3 to age 17 when the sex abuse started weaning off.

That's 14 years, Jennifer. Very true. Very, very true. And, you know, it just goes back to how controlling and manipulative this man was, Toby Willis was. And was he brainwashing? Whoa, whoa, whoa. Jennifer, I agree with you on that. Controlling, violent, and manipulative in the worst ways to his own family. But I mean, I've got to tell you, I want to believe that if I thought my child was being abused or beaten, that I would put my own safety aside. And a kill is, okay, never mind.

Knock, knock, kill. Take that back. Erase, erase. Report him and kick him out with my cowboy boot I've got on my foot right now. Straight up his rear end. And then I'd give him to the cops. I mean, I'd like to think, I believe that's what I would do. I'm pretty sure that's what I would do.

I mean, at a certain point, when do the other adults in the scenario become complicit to high-profile defense lawyer out of L.A., Troy Slayton? When? You can't, there is no playbook for this sort of horror. And, you know, the mother, although she does have potential criminal liability, none of us know what type of stresses she was under, what type of fear she was under. So we can't even imagine the house of horrors where she's trying to hold her family together, protect her children, and do everything she can. I can't even start to imagine what stress she was under. Okay, I agree with you on that, Troy Slayton.

I agree with you on that. To Vincent Hill, private investigator joining us uh former cop vincent you know the the homeschooling thing comes up again in this scenario i'm not against homeschooling i have relatives at homeschool and when my children were learning about um let's see what were they learning a b c d e f g her children were learning the works of shakespeare and their homeschooling cluster group okay so not knocking homeschooling however vincent having trump through so many public schools in inner city atlanta looking for witnesses and defendants public schools all schools actually do provide a certain degree of monitoring because if a child comes forward and says i'm being molested or my dad did this or my brother did this or my uncle or the janitor or whoever or they see the child is malnutritioned or beaten or unkempt or wearing the same clothes every day,

the school has a duty to report that to police. And if you're being homeschooled, you lose that protection. Explain to me, Vincent Hill, you've dug up a lot of witnesses in public schools, including teachers and administrators. Explain how that works, Vincent. Yeah, you're absolutely right, Nancy. The benefit of going to a public school, although a lot of people don't like public schools, including teachers and administrators. Explain how that works, Vincent. Yeah, you're absolutely right, Nancy. The benefit of going to a public school, although a lot of people don't like public schools, you know, for crimes or whatnot. Hey, watch it. I went to a public school. Dr. John H. Hurd. Hey, I did too. I graduated in Milwaukee. But it does give a child the benefit to say, hey, this is going on in the home. Even if they don't say it, there's always signs, Nancy.

And that's why I'm not a big advocate of homeschooling, because you never know what's going on inside someone's home. And everyone, especially in the entertainment field, will put on a good front to make it look like everything is peachy when that's not actually the case. I mean, we talked about the Hart kids. They were homeschooled. Look what happened actually the case. I mean, we talked about the Hart kids. They were homeschooled. Look what happened in that case. And in a lot of these cases, you have the spouse. And you, Nancy, being a mother, you know nothing goes on in your house

that you don't know about. So to that, I say she was likely a victim of whether it was physical abuse, verbal abuse, or maybe even sexual abuse, because just because you're married doesn't mean you can't be sexually assaulted by your spouse so we don't know what was going on in that home but had these kids been in a public environment someone would have seen those signs she writes this is jessica's

post and i'm talking about jessica willis the star of the willis Clan Band and the Willis family on TLC. I was 23 years old and known as the blonde lead singer, fiddle player, and principal songwriter of the Willis Clan, the eldest sister of 12 kids. We performed on tour frequently and were finishing up a second season of a reality TV show about our family. A fourth album was in the works and there was always something exciting and challenging coming up on the calendar but that year was also the darkest period of my life the truth of what i was living every day was nothing like what people saw on the outside speculation and confusion has muddied the waters of late and I found the longer I go

without speaking up, the longer I feel trapped in the continued power of my past. When I did eventually come to realize I was being molested, I had no way to accurately express what was happening to me. There followed intense shame, distrust, and hurt throughout my childhood, even in the happy times. Thus ran the two parallel storylines that became my life. You know, Ashley Wilcott, that just breaks my heart to even read her words. It's sadistic. And this father held the entire family captive. One thing I would say to parents, again, seeing these cases all day, every day in my job is trust your gut. And so while the mother arguably may have been a victim, obviously, I think if you trust your gut early on in a relationship,

if you think something's wrong, if you think something's going on, do not ignore it. She's so right about trusting your gut. Take a listen now to a DailyMail.com exclusive interview with the Willis family's six oldest children. Looking back, the older girls now wish they'd been able to speak up before their father had a chance to prey on their younger sisters. The truth is all of us at different times could have, you know,

spoken up and said, you know, this is my truth. This is what, you know, I'm experiencing. The boys feel guilt, wishing they'd known and could have somehow rescued their family It's been hard for me, and I hear stories around me and I I Can't even fathom the pain you're going through how's all of this affected your relationship with your mother? I knew that if I told my mom things that I was experiencing she would stick up for me She would fight for me and she would you know defend me

But I was scared your father was watching this and watching you all speak Is there anything that you would say to him? I would I would say no I think our actions speak way louder than our words It's a very liberating thing to say, you're not going to affect me anymore. You don't have that power over me. Is that door closed to your father ever having a sort of a part in your life, or is it something that might be reestablished? There's no question. I mean, the door is definitely closed on him ever being a father figure.

That door is definitely very firmly closed. You know, the earlier comment i believe by lauren howard psychologist joining us today out of new york that this was a cult um i don't know that i would call it a cult but it does have cult-like aspects to it to me it's a father who's sexually abusing all of his children and they're too afraid to say anything and the mom is afraid and also stands by and let it happen she doesn't want to know so she doesn't know jessica writes that the innocent hurt curious hopeful child hidden within me gravitated to the magic of storytelling's truth and wisdom. She could connect with others through music when words failed.

Speaking to the cult life aspect, my daily life transformed dramatically as my family became more and more public. Quote, My father shaped us from child students to child performers, and at some point we became a touring dance troupe and band. He always promoted his philosophy, showcasing the family as living proof of the validity of his methods and beliefs. Hmm. I remember being a model member of this strange and highly performance-oriented group, complete with a belief on nearly every subject and constantly ready to make a range of demonstrations on cue.

It does sound like, Lauren Howard, that he has brainwashed them. Absolutely. And Nancy, I have to defend the mother again. You know, you say that if you believed that something awful was happening to your children, you'd put your own welfare behind theirs. What if, and it's hard for you to imagine this because you're a strong, smart, independent woman who's had a life full of experiences and exposure to reality which this family did not have what if you believed what if your husband made you believe if you call if you do anything about this i will kill you and then i will have the children to myself i will get rid of you i will ruin i've already thought

about that i've thought about that about the father threatening to kill the wife and the children if it became public. But Ashley Wilcott, a juvenile judge and founder of childcrimewatch.com, he's not with them 24-7, 365. They're on tour. Somebody has to go to Walmart. Somebody has to pump gas. Somebody has to be on the stage introducing them. There were a million, two million, three million moments when police could have moved in on him and arrested him while he was away from the children. Bam. That's true. Also, you know, you have to think about the fact that, yes, a parent may be a victim, but it doesn't mean that there aren't other opportunities to get other people involved and seek out help. There are all kinds of victim advocates and people who are there to help these very issues.

You just have to be brave enough to take a step. And strong enough and knowledgeable enough. You have to understand that you have a way out. And when you are indoctrinated and controlled and held captive and hostage... Listen to this. I'm going to go back to what Lauren Howard is saying. Ashley Wilcott, weigh in on this. Then Troy Slayton.

Four months later, another friend steps forward to save the rest of her family after she manages to escape. He reported my dad for suspicion of sex abuse and the investigation started. The case was given to the TBI, Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. When they contacted me, I went in and spoke with them the whole rest of the day.

I gave them a long, confident testimony, which was used to create the arrest warrant. I was warned not to speak to my family, and if they reached out, I should let the TBI do their job. There was great concern on how to keep everyone alive and safe while trying to apprehend my father. It was no exaggeration to fear a violent confrontation, standoff, kidnapping, or worse. It was a harrowing few weeks, but my father was finally arrested. Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge, weigh in. Thank God for law enforcement.

People who want to badmouth law enforcement, listen to what they just did. They saved that girl and the siblings because of the way they handled it. To Troy Slayton, what now? So he is now sentenced to four counts. He's been convicted four times for child rape. He's going to serve two 25-year terms and two 40-year terms all concurrently, which means a total of 40 years in prison based on those convictions. You know, I want everyone to know that the family is going on, and they are performing for the very first time since their dad's conviction at Shower Arts and Activities Center in Wisconsin on May 23, 2018. Repeat, they are performing as a family together. Another thing that Jessica writes is, writing and sharing

this is an important step for me in owning my story, loving myself and others, and moving forward to live the life I truly want to live. She says, if you too are a survivor, you are not alone. Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.