Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 'BLOOD, CARNAGE, HORRIFIC,' July 4 Shootings: 'Perp Dressed Like Girl'

Episode Date: July 6, 2022

Police say Monday's holiday mass shooting had been planned for weeks. Seven people died and dozens were injured as Robert Crimo III fired as many as 70 rounds into the crowd from a Highland Park rooftop. The shooter accessed the roof via a fire escape ladder, then fled the scene wearing women’s clothing.  An AR-15-type weapon was used n the assault, but police say Crimo bought the rifle used in the deadly shooting legally — along with four other firearms.    Joining Nancy Grace today: Lisa Fine-Cavalli, Vegas Mass Shooting Survivor (Oct 1, 2017), Co-Founder: Route91Strong, Twitter: @LisaFineLove, Facebook.com/Route91Strong Dale Carson - High Profile Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer, Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself, DaleCarsonLaw.com Dr. Jillian Peterson - Forensic Psychologist, Professor of Criminal Justice at Hamline University (St. Paul, MN), Expert on Mass Shootings and Violence Prevention, Author: "The Violence Project: How to Stop a Mass Shooting Epidemic", theviolenceproject.org, Twitter: @JillKPeterson, Dr. Michelle DuPre - Former Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff's Department, Author: "Homicide Investigation Field Guide" & "Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide", Forensic Consultant, DMichelleDupreMD.com  David Katz - Former Senior Special Agent with the DEA, Founder and CEO: Global Security Group, Inc., Active Shooter Response Expert, Lynn Sweet - Washington Bureau Chief, Chicago Sun-Times, Witness at Fourth of July Parade  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We've all just finished celebrating July the 4th, celebrating the greatest country in the world, America. Can you imagine at the celebration hearing shots ring out, then screams? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Take a listen to this. Our friends at NBC.

From every angle, chaos, confusion, and carnage, a July 4th celebration through the center of town transformed into a mass casualty incident. Active shooter call in Highland Park. Police say the gunman took a sniper-like position, firing onto the parade from a roof using a high-powered rifle. I picked up my kids and we ran again. I put them in a garbage dumpster and then I ran back to look for my partner and her daughter and I saw people shot on the ground. The attack sending crowds scrambling, panicked parents trying to protect their children.

Just this horrific pow, pow, pow. And then you heard people screaming, bodies down, you know, run for your life. That's what I heard. Joining us right now, an all-star panel, but first let me go to Lynn Sweet with the Washington Bureau. She is the chief for the Chicago Sun-Times and a witness. Lynn, thank you for being with us. What happened?

Well, thank you. I am usually in Washington as the Washington Bureau chief for the Chicago Sun-Times, but on July 4th, I was in this suburb about 30 miles north of downtown Chicago just to enjoy the Highland Park 4th of July parade. I have family here, been coming to this parade for years. There was a hiatus because of COVID. What happened very briefly is I was at the beginning of the parade near where the floats were assembling, and all of a sudden I saw a sea of panicked people running towards me, racing towards me. Somebody, I said, you know, what happened? Somebody said, a shooter.

The enormity of what that meant did not strike me until a few minutes later when I made my way to the main parade route, a street called Central Avenue, downtown Highland Park. And I saw what no one wants to see. I saw women and men who were wounded, and I saw, sad to say, bodies, lots of blood. And the moment that is frozen in time, Nancy, is how people just abandoned everything they had. You know, their summer beach chairs, the blankets, knapsacks, especially baby buggies. Parents usually know you just don't leave a baby buggy around, but that's how scary the situation must have been that everyone who had a baby in a baby carriage just grabbed their child and ran. With me is Lynn Swee, the Washington Bureau Chief for the Chicago Sun-Times.

Lynn, you just described something that always struck me when I would go to crime scenes. The smallest things, even in murder cases, would somehow take on a poignancy. I find it hard to describe. Lynn just described a mass shooting scene and she makes her way to it and finds baby buggies, party accoutrement. They're there for July the 4th. Tell me, Lynn, when you first heard the word shooter. So what you, if you're saying, so what went through my mind. I thought, was this a firecracker? Was it a firework? And even as I was making my way to the main part of the parade, I was thinking,

this is a lot of people to be running this scared if it was just one shot. But it didn't escape me. One shot would have been enough to have sent everybody reeling. The enormity of this being a mass killing with a rapid fire assault-like weapon with a high capacity magazine, which we would know more about later, as I was making my way there and saw all the carnage, I realized how fast this had to happen.

And then, you know, some people told me, boom, boom, boom, you know, about the rapid fire sequence that they heard. And that, it's what you know my column that's at suntimes.com, I've been covering massacres since Columbine in 1999, but it's when Washington, congressional debate, gun laws, this time, on this July 4th, I was there. Can I ask you, Lynn, what led you to go toward what was happening and not run away? Nancy, it didn't dawn on me not to. And to anyone who's listening, it's just not about me. You don't need to have any fuss about me. It never dawned on me not to do it. I just went.

I've been a reporter a long time. I'm from this community. I understood something terrible was happening. It just never dawned on me not to go see what happened. I'm just imagining if I had my twins, I've got boy-girl twins at a July 4th festival or parade, and all of a sudden everybody starts running and screaming. Like my daughter, when she is approached with a scary situation, she freezes. Other people run. Was there anybody left? Or was it just cleared out like in a movie?

There were people there. And one other thing, again, I do kind of like want to minimize what I did. If I had children with me, I probably would have made sure, you know, depending on the age. If I had babies with me, I wouldn't have gone. I'm not silly. You don't do that. Nancy, if you were alone and you were with me, you might have gone too. Well, I would want to find out what was happening and see if anybody was hurt that maybe we could help. Or something.

For whatever reason. And so when I was there, the spectators were gone. There were people who were trying. I have vivid images of people leaning over the wounded. People who put blankets over the dead. And then some people who surmised that it was over were hanging around watching. But I do, the thought did go through my mind that the shooter had not been caught. I asked some law enforcement people who were really in a rush, just I quickly said, it's the shooter here.

And they said, they don't know. So I was aware that a shooter was at large, active shooting scene. I looked around, but I'm there in a professional capacity. Frankly, if I was just not there to work, I don't know why I would have stuck around. You catch a look at what's going on and then you leave out of prudence. Especially though, Lynn, when you think about people like Eric Rudolph, remember him, the Olympic bomber? I was there that night working in the DA's office the night of the Olympic bombing. I was there when the bomb went off and immediately started

taking witness statements and trying to figure out what had happened. Within an hour, we were interviewing witnesses. Do you know what he went on to do? Bomb an abortion clinic. My investigator went to the scene of the bombing of the abortion clinic, and then he had it rigged so another explosion would happen, and that shrapnel actually hit my investigator. So you're right if he if the shooter had not been apprehended there's a huge possibility there could be more more killings well here's the thing also at the moment who knew if this was really a lone gunman who knew

if this was an organized terrorism attack, who knew what. So in terms of how other people responded who were not directly there to help people, I don't know why they stuck around. There weren't many. Most of the people fled. I thought in the end, it was not as chaotic as some people have described it it only because from my point of

view did it result in everybody leaving quickly okay so you have a little point of view if everybody leaves quickly then then to me it's over it by definition can't be that chaotic even though i understand why people said it who were in the midst of it. A real chaotic thing is when people don't know to leave, can't leave, feel trapped. Right. Can't get away, like in a concert or something. And there you hear in the midst of a mass shooting, Lynn Sweet, the bureau chief for the Chicago Sun-Times in Washington, is there in the midst of it. And you just heard one parent hid their children in trash cans. Take a listen to our friends at ABC.

We all actually came out for a family outing. My husband works at Gearhead and we brought our three and one-year-old out and my in-laws were with us. And I was holding my one-year-old and behind us I thought there was a sound of fireworks and seconds later I realized that that's not what it was so I believe I hit the ground with my daughter and I remember looking around trying to figure out where the sound was coming from and I in fact looked up at the neighboring business across the street and saw the shooter on the roof. And I just I screamed that it was a shooter. And I got my daughter and we ran into my husband's store and I yelled for my son and my mother and father in law.

And we all were able to get in safely as my husband helped a whole bunch of other patrons get away from the danger. Lynn Sweet with me, who not only the Washington Bureau of Chiefs of Chicago sent times, but they're at the mass shooting. How many lives have been confirmed, claimed as a result of this one guy? As of last night, I was at the briefing that the law enforcement community put together. So far, we have seven dead, six have been identified, dozens injured. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me is Lisa Fine Cavalli, a survivor of the Mandalay shooting in Vegas. You can find her.

She's the co-founder of Route 91 Strong. Lisa, what is all of this when you're hearing our friend Lynn Sweet describe the shooting, where all of these lives were just ripped away for nothing, what is that evoking in you? You know, Nancy, it reminds me of the war zone that opened up in front of 22,000 of us at the concert in Vegas and it was absolutely horrific and I can only imagine what that was like there because I've lived it myself. Guys take a listen to our cut five our friends at ABC. I just looked up I it was like a dream I like I was like this isn't real that's all I could say to myself is this isn't real but I needed everybody to know that there was a dream. I was like, this isn't real. That's all I could say to myself is this isn't real. But I needed everybody to know that there was a shooter, so I was just screaming that.

And I just saw a long hair and I saw a gun, and that's all I could tell anybody. But when I ran in the store, I was just like, Tony, I saw him. Tony, I saw him. And we just ran down into the basement and we were just shaking and crying. It was horrific. And also, from our friends at NBC. Dr. David Baum along with Dr. Lauren Schechter were at the parade with their families. Initially running for safety, then turning back around and treating the wounded. All of a sudden there was a stampede of people coming and then I realized it was gunshots and I literally just thought to myself, is this is how it's gonna end at least six people shot and killed more than 30

injured the doctors couldn't believe what they were seeing it was quite a horrific scene as first responders tried to save lives authorities launched a countywide dragnet looking for the. Now take a listen to our friends at WLS. Cell phone video capturing the sound of gunfire during Highland Park's July 4th parade. Oh my God, it's got shot! This morning, police say the gunman was perched atop a roof, firing at parade goers who just gathered to celebrate the holiday. Everyone was basically running, screaming, there's a shooter, there's a shooter. Officials say at least six people were killed and more than 30 injured.

Paradegoers taking cover anywhere they could. For three hours, Donald Johnson hid in a gas station. There were six or seven children crying their eyes out, and the mothers finally got them settled down by singing the wheels on the bus go round and round. The scene is horrific. The thought of mothers hiding with their children, trying to calm them down by singing group EEC, and active shooter response expert, David, weigh in. This was all planned out. So far at that juncture, they have an ID on a lone shooter, white male, long hair, one gun. Jump in.

Yeah, I mean, this is just a story that repeats itself sadly. Every time we speak about an incident like that, person announced to the entire world that they were violent. They would act violently. And still, despite everything we've seen, despite every single tragic incident, despite hearing stories with mothers and their children, nothing changes. Nothing changes. Did you notice that the witness said the shooter had positioned himself on top of a building? Lisa Fine Cavalli, who survived the Mandalay shooting,

that's exactly what the Mandalay shooter did in Vegas. He had everybody trapped. There were concerts going on. Nobody could really get out. And he was perched on a high location shooting out of a room. Yeah, it was like just a repeat of what happened almost five years ago. And it is happening, really hitting my soul is that these families, these children, mothers, fathers, grandparents, I mean, families are going to be changed for the rest of their life. The rest of their lives.

You know, Lisa, I remember I was in New York, in New York City on September 11, working at Court TV. And for months and months after, for a long time, there was a no-fly zone over the city. The first time I saw an airplane go over the city, I was on a treadmill. I jumped off the treadmill instinctively and jumped down on the ground. Because once you live through something like that, you're never the same, much less losing your family member, your loved one, a friend in the tragedy.

And Dale Carson joining me, high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville, former FBI agent and cop and author. He's at DaleCarsonLaw.com. Dale, it's an instinct you never get over. Like Lisa is saying that feeling like you're trapped like a rat. You don't know where the gunshots are coming from. You're in a crowd. Everybody's screaming. Everybody's running. You may have your children with you. That's horrible. Nancy, when I was in the FBI in Atlanta, I worked on the tactical team. And I can just tell you that these individuals are using history to make their killings even more effective. That elevated shooting position is the most dangerous. And the result is that you run toward the shooter,

not away from them, because it makes it more difficult to get hit. And they know this. And as we move along here, things are going to get more and more worse, difficult with these copycat shootings that emulate what other people have successfully done. And it gets back to the history of these individuals. Why are they so angry? What's making them behave this way? And there are going to be neon signs, as David Katz just said, with Global Security Group, Inc., that nobody picks up until this happens. Take a listen to our cut seven, our friends at CBS.

Five people died on the scene here. Another died at a nearby hospital. And among the dozens of victims, people shot here at this Fourth of July parade. The oldest victim, 85 years old. The youngest, just eight. A sudden burst of gunfire 10 minutes after the start of a 4th of July parade sent parade participants and spectators running for their lives. Police had the gunmen open fire from a nearby rooftop. I just remember seeing like smoke on the ground.

I remember hearing shootings and going like and then reloading and then again, and people screaming and running. It was just really traumatizing and scary. A scene of chaos with lawn chairs, bicycles, and strollers left behind scattered along the parade route as people scrambled for safety. To David Katz, a former special agent with DEA, founder, CEO, Global Security, Inc., you already have one witness saying it was a white male with long hair and a single gun. What should be done in a situation like that to catch the perp? Well, exactly what was done.

This is a little legwork. I mean, you're running the gun. You're finding the identity purchaser. Then, of course, you have cameras. You may have eyewitnesses once the perpetrator gets off the roof. Maybe you have an eyewitness putting him in a car. Maybe a camera shot puts him in a car. Now you have a license.

Now you have a registration. Now you have a camera, a license plate photo. And then, of course, once you have an identification on a vehicle, well, now it's only a matter of he's riding by. He goes by a police officer. he has a license plate reader, he has, I don't know, that particular area, a bridge, toll, or tunnel. So it's only a matter of time before you're going to get a hit on the tag he's driving. Or it may, Dale Carson, just be luck, like with Timothy Vey and the Oklahoma City bombing. He was pulled over on a traffic offense,

and as I recall, they found indications of fertilizer and more in his trunk, used to create a bomb. That was a fluke, remember? That's exactly right. That was really unusual. But here I understand that civilians actually saw the car which was fairly notable and the tag and were able to contact law enforcement who then stopped him finding that he was armed yet again in that particular vehicle and lo and behold who does he turn out to be

a rapper wannabe take a listen our cut nine cut nine. This is the Highland Park Police Chief Lou Jogman. What I can tell you at this moment was approximately 15 minutes ago, the subject that we were looking for, the person of interest, Robert Cremo III, was spotted by a North Chicago unit at Buckley and 41, his vehicle, the vehicle that we were looking for. He initiated, attempted to initiate a traffic stop on that subject. That subject did flee. A brief pursuit went on. Ultimately, they were able to get the subject stopped at Wesley and 41 in Lake Forest.

The subject was taken into custody without incident. So at this point, I, again, want to reiterate, things are moving very quickly, as they do, unfortunately. And we just want to keep you updated with the most relevant information. The purse of interest is now being taken to the Highland Park Police Department, where we're going to begin the next phase of the investigation and speak with this person to make sure or see if, in fact, he is connected to this incident. Joining me right now, special guest, Dr. Jillian Peterson, forensic psychologist, professor of criminal justice at Hamline University in St. Paul, and expert on mass shootings. She is the author of The Violence Project, How to Stop a Mass Shooting Epidemic.

We need you now more than ever, Dr. Jillian Peterson. What do you make of what we know right now about not only the shooting itself, but the shooter? Yeah, a lot of the things that are emerging about this perpetrator are really similar to things that we see again and again and again. We've studied 180 of these perpetrators. So the fact that he was 21, the fact that he's posting things online, really interested in violence, has a history of threatening his family members, has a history of suicidality and attempting suicide. A lot of this stuff is really consistent, posting on these really dark message boards. What's a little different in this case is actually the fact that he wore a disguise because usually the perpetrator wants to be known for this. They want their name to make the history books. So throwing on a disguise and leaving the

scene is actually something we haven't really seen before. Tell me what you find the most curious or probative about his postings online. You know, some of these message boards online are so dark and so violent. It's hard to pick out sort of which specific post is the one that's going to lead to someone actually doing that. But we do know amongst these perpetrators, they study each other. They identify with previous perpetrators. They post violent content. And it's so, when you look back, you can just see all these glaring warning signs. Like, why did somebody pick up on this in his life?

When you say dark websites, what do you mean by that exactly? I think he was posting on one that's a message board where people post actual images and videos of sort of death and murder and carnage just really kind of awful stuff that it's hard to imagine anyone wanting to go on and look at for fun but he was a really frequent poster on that discussion board his name is Robert Bobby E. Cremo III and he performed as a rapper who went by the name Awake. His recent music videos include depictions of mass murder. Now, you know, Dr. Jillian Peterson, if that's not a red flag, I don't know what is.

I fully agree with you. Part of it is I think we think of these as these scary outsiders. So it's hard for parents, neighbors, teachers, friends to think this person posting this stuff could actually do this. Somebody I know could be the person who actually does this. And so we tend to dismiss or explain away all these really clear warning signs. Things like posting depictions of mass shootings in your music videos. His most recent video was posted to YouTube, and it shows him standing there in the aftermath of a bloody school shooting. It ends with him draping himself in the American flag.

And I want to circle back with you, Dr. Peterson, about that video being draped in the American flag at a mass shooting and this shooting that occurred on July the 4th. Another music video is a cartoon depiction of a man wearing a shirt with his YouTube channel's logo on it, but he's holding a long gun and he gets shot by police. It goes on and on and on. He had his own Discord server where people would chat with him. And it was full of nihilistic police themes. It goes on and on. I wish politicians still gave speeches like this.

And there was a picture of Bud Dwyer, the state treasurer that shot and killed himself on live TV. And when you say dark videos and imagery, you're right. Are you saying that people chose to ignore it or they just couldn't fathom that the guy they thought they knew could do something like this? Yeah, that,

so all of that posting is something that we as researchers called leakage. So it is telling people you're thinking about this, posting it, writing it. And when it comes to young shooters, the vast majority, it's about 80% of them leak their plans ahead of time. So make it known. But yeah, it's sort of we miss the leakage, we don't take it seriously, we can sort of we missed the leakage. We don't take it seriously. We can't imagine it could really happen. We don't know who to report to or what to do with it. But I think when we think about preventing the next shooting, that's a really critical piece of it. You know, Dr. Peterson, I remember when I was

writing one of my books, my first nonfiction called Objection. I talked, I wrote about blood money. People make money off murder, selling, for instance, the killer's hair, or even their toenail clippings, if you can imagine, or their drawings, or bits of pieces from murder scenes, or, for instance, selling autopsy photos, which are very, very upsetting. I had to do so much research on that laptop. When I finished the book, I destroyed the laptop. It just felt like it was cursed because there were so many bad images that I had looked up in order to write about them. And we've got this guy frequently posting to message boards discussing graphic descriptions of murder, suicide, and death. He even posted a picture, a video of a beheading. I mean, for peace sake, if I knew that about my child or someone I loved,

I would immediately get help for them because there's something very wrong with that, doctor. Yeah, absolutely. And that's what we need people to do. And it's that on top of the fact that there's 911 calls to the house a couple years prior because he's attempting suicide or because he's threatening to kill his entire family with his knife collection. I mean, when you put it all together, it's hard to believe that no one thought we really need to connect this kid with some sort of resources. This is not okay. And that's what we need people to be doing.

Dr. Pearson, what do you make of his rap persona awake? You know, I don't know. To me, it's that kind of quest to be known, right? That quest for fame that he wanted people to look up to him to hear what he had to say. And that quest for kind of fame and notoriety is something we see a lot of in mass shooters. And in fact, a lot of times they do this, their final act, so that their name does make the history book so that they can be known for this in a way that they weren't known in their life. His full name was quote, Awake the Rapper. Now, having, you know,

prosecuted in inner city Atlanta for so many years to live here, you basically have to love rap. You have to know rap. You have to understand rap. But I see him, Awake the Rapper, as using that as a vehicle to disseminate hate, violence. I mean, you can see that in his lyrics and everything he did. Why do you believe that no one seemingly noticed or did anything about it, Dr. Peterson? You know, one thing that I think we're still struggling to figure out is how do you separate the people who end up doing this from other people posting violent content who don't do this, right? And how do you criminally charge someone, say, for thinking or talking about violence? You can't do that. They have to actually do it.

So I think part of it is we don't know how to intervene. We don't know who to connect this person with. We don't know when to be concerned or when not to be. And so a lot of sort of new research in my area, forensic psychology, is really focused on helping us figure this out. You know, this is reminding me of Dr. Jillian Peterson joining us, Professor of Criminal Justice in St. Paul. We recently covered the case of a handyman who was working for this beautiful young mom. Her name was Salyah Gall. And if you look at her killer's profile, it's inundated with sex videos, pickup hints, murder scenes, rape scenes, stabbing scenes. And she was stabbed dead nearly 60 times.

So I really believe that your social media, what you post, is a window into your psyche. I really believe that your social media, what you post is a window into your psyche. I really believe that. I mean, you have people that post all about their children or all about their job or their interests. That's what they're about. And this is what he was posting, doctor. Yeah, I fully agree with you. And I think there's questions about, you know, what responsibility do social media platforms have for looking at this content? Who should be moderating it? When we see something

really concerning, who should we be telling? But really, there are people in his life who had to know that this is what he was posting. And that's when we need people to speak up. Take a listen to our cut 12, our friends at ABC7. Federal authorities are assisting in the investigation and poring over, as I mentioned, Cremo's social media accounts, which we're told depict graphic images and violent behavior. We're also told that Cremo will most likely appear in bond court sometime today. Again, the biggest thing we're waiting for right now are those charges, the announcement of the charges. So we're expecting a news conference to happen in about 10

minutes or so, a little more than that here at the Highland Park Police Department. And we expect to learn more about charges being officially filed. Well, we also know Dale Carson, joining me, high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville, former FBI agent. All we're learning about his social media is going to be used by the defense to claim insanity. But Dale Carson, I want you to listen to our Cut 13. This is Lake County Major Crime Task Force spokesman Chris Covelli. Listen carefully. We do believe Cremo pre-planned this attack for several weeks.

He brought a high-powered rifle to this parade. He accessed the roof of a business via a fire escape ladder and began opening fire on the innocent Independence Day celebration goers. The rifle was purchased in Illinois and the information we have thus far is that it appears to have been purchased legally by Cremo. During the attack, Cremo was dressed in woman's clothing and investigators do believe he did this to conceal his facial tattoos and his identity and help him during the escape with the other people who were fleeing the chaos. During the attack, we believe that Cremo fired more than 70 rounds

from this rifle into the crowd of innocent people. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Dale Carson, high-profile lawyer, joining me, former Fed with the FBI. He is not insane. Did you hear the pre-planning that was involved? Absolutely. I mean, this is a skill set that's adapted from other shooters' behaviors, and it's what makes them so much more deadly than what would have occurred 40 years ago. And the result ultimately is that people who are around this individual, it's like the frog in the frying pan

where the water gets slowly heated. Because if you're watching him grow up as a child, you think, well, that's not so unusual. That's not so unusual. But for most on the outside, when we look at that child, we go, that person is not right. You know, many people are wondering how he managed to get away from the scene of the shooting. Take a listen. Our cut 14 with the Lake County Major Crime Task Force. Following the attack, Cremo exited the roof. He dropped his rifle and he blended in with the crowd and he escaped. He walked to his mother's home who lived in the area and he blended right in with everybody else as they were running around almost as he was an innocent spectator as well. He borrowed his mother's vehicle.

We issued an alert yesterday afternoon. Chief Jogman provided the vehicle information and Cremo's information. We're very thankful that an alert member of the community saw Cremo's vehicle traveling southbound on Route 41, dialed 911, an alert North Chicago police officer spotted the vehicle, waited for additional backup units to arrive, conducted a traffic stop, and they were able to safely apprehend Cremo with no injuries to the officers. Inside the vehicle, there was a second rifle located. Indications is that was purchased by Cremo as well. So I'm trying to figure out what this all means, but to Lisa

Finecavelli, a survivor of the Vegas Mandalay shooting. When you hear all of this about the shooter, in this case, Cremo, 22-year-old rapper wannabe, Awake the Rapper, what goes through your mind? It makes me concerned about our lives here in America. It makes me feel that how do we stop this? How do we save lives? What are we going to do? We can't go to concerts. Our kids at school are getting killed. movie theaters, churches, places of work. Nobody is safe anywhere. And it is so beyond that we live in the United States and we are in a war zone while we go out and enjoy our lives. It twists me on the inside to think of all the people

who have lost their lives at the hands of some wannabe rapper who dressed like a girl to blend in and get away. This is very, very carefully planned. This guy, Cremo, wasn't always like this. Take a listen to Hour Cut 16. Our friends at CBS News speaking with the Highland Park Mayor. We were in the middle of a joyful celebration, having not had this parade for two years during the pandemic. It was multi-families deep along the parade route with a lot of folks shouting out.

It was really joyful and wonderful. I noticed the marching band racing down the sidewalk at one point and couldn't understand what they were doing, thought maybe they were late for a performance. And then suddenly police cars were racing towards us. And again, it was like, well, maybe somebody's having a heart attack. It just didn't register that somebody was committing a mass shooting in my city. My husband was right there He was right in the viewing stands And he said it was just measured pop pop pop pop and he said that's when they realized after about 15 of those That it wasn't fireworks that it was gunshots

Yeah, what can you tell us about the suspect? I've heard that you you've had some connection to him in the past I was his Cub Scout pack leader. He was a little boy at the time. I'm not sure what happened to him to compel him to commit this kind of evil in his hometown. In his own hometown. Joining me right now, longtime friend and colleague, Dr. Michelle Dupree, former forensic pathologist, medical examiner, detective, and author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Dr. Dupree, you and I have looked at a lot of crime scenes.

You've performed a lot of autopsies. But when there is a mass shooting, I know it affects you in a different way. And then when you hear the shooter was once a Cub Scout, like every other kid, normal, seemingly. When you're doing autopsies or investigating shootings like this, is it hard to fathom the shooter was once a normal kid? Nancy, it is. I mean, this is so horrific.

It's hard to imagine anybody could do this. But someone who has a past of being a Cub Scout or Boy Scout, you just don't think of that. It's hard. Dr. Dupree, in addition to, of course, being a medical examiner, you're also a detective with Lexington County Sheriff's Department. What can you tell me about the gun used in this case? Well, Nancy, this is an AR type of a long gun, a rifle. It is high-powered, and the reason it's high-powered is because the bullets, when they come out, they travel so fast, and that's what causes the damage.

This type of gun causes enormous damage to the target it hits. I mean, a wound in a person this size would be the size of an orange or bigger when it exits the body. It's just horrific. What do you make of what the witness said, that there was a measured pause between each shoot, between each firing?

Well, this type of a rifle, it's actually a semi-automatic. And so one round is fired with each trigger pull. But you can pull the trigger in rapid succession. So even though it is a semi-automatic, it can fire anywhere from 30 to 75 rounds per minute. Let me ask you, Dr. Dupree, what the shooting victims, one victim was shot in a wheelchair, What these victims went through, would they, based on what you just told me about ballistics, would they have survived long enough to understand what was happening to them,

to see everybody running and screaming as they bled out? Of course, you know, that depends on where they were shot. I mean, we have one victim that was actually grazed in the leg, and she survived. If you have a direct hit by this in the core of your body, the central part of your body, you are not likely to survive. It's going to be very fast. You are still going to be in shock within a minute or so. Other people, depending again on where they're hit, they're going to know what's going on. And certainly if you're not the first person shot, you're going to hear the gunshots, you're going to see people running,

you're going to be afraid, and then all of a sudden, you're going to also feel that. It's going to be horrific. Tell me again about the bullet, the type of ammo used. Well, there are different types of ammo that can be used in these guns, typically something like a.223 or something of that nature. But there are several different types of ammo. But in all cases, again, they're high-powered. or something of that nature. But there are several different types of ammos.

But in all cases, again, they're high-powered. And the reason that they're high-powered is because, and I don't want to get into math here, it's not my strong subject, but the velocity or the speed of that bullet is something around 3,200 feet per second, per se. A handgun is much, much slower than that. So the killing power, if you will, is a little less. And that's what makes these so dangerous. It's why the military uses this type of gun, one similar. It's a killing machine.

To you, Lisa Fine Cavalli, shooting survivor, what's your final thought today? I hope that our leaders can come together and do whatever it takes to make this stop. It has got to stop. It is people, the ripple effect of the damage of all these innocent lives being murdered, and it seems like it's happening every week. I hope that we can get solutions. I don't care what it takes. We need solutions to this massacre of these lives. The war zone is opening up on our lives every day. We walk out of that door and we could be involved in a mass shooting. It's got to stop.

Or we wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crumb, Story Signing Off. Goodbye, friend. Nancy Grace Crumb Story signing off Goodbye friend