Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Blood, Sex Staging, Fiber Evidence: Chilling New Details in Murder of Two Delphi Little Girls

Episode Date: May 18, 2022

New details were released in the murder investigation of slain Delphi girls, Abby Williams and Libby German. The Murder Sheet podcast made public a redacted search warrant submitted by an FBI agent explaining why there was probable cause to search the property of Ron Logan. The girls' bodies were found on Logan's property. The court documents state that “a large amount of blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene,” meaning the killer would have been covered in blood. The warrant also states the victims didn’t have any defense wounds, but some articles of clothing were taken from them and removed from the scene. The agent suggests the scene had been staged.  Joining Nancy Grace Today: Kevin Greenlee - Attorney (Indianapolis, IN), Co-Host, Murder Sheet Podcast,  Facebook: "Murder Sheet Discussion Group" Dr. Jorey Krawczyn - Psychologist (Panama City Beach, FL), Adjunct Faculty with Saint Leo University; Research Consultant with Blue Wall Institute, Author: "Operation S.O.S. - Practical Recommendations to Help “Stop Officer Suicide”, bw-institute.com ' Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Áine Cain - Senior Reporter, Business Insider (Indianapolis, IN), Co-creator: "Murder Sheet" and "Mystery to Me" Podcasts, Facebook: "Murder Sheet Discussion Group" See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Chilling new details are now just emerging in the murders of two little girls. The case commonly known as the Delphi case. Of course, I'm talking about Liberty Libby and Abigail Abbey, two little girls ages 13 and 14 that lost their lives, murdered after a walk in a public park. Why are the details just now coming out and what makes them so chilling? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. What's the hold up? Why don't we have a suspect, a defendant on trial right now in the murders of these two little girls? These girls, younger than my little Lucy, were walking across

a trestle train bridge. They took a picture, a picture of who we believe is the killer. They have sound of his voice. The bodies were found. I believe there was DNA of the perp on the bodies. They were active on social media leading up to the moment of their death. Why don't we have the double killer? And why is there a shroud of secrecy surrounding their murders? I can tell you one thing. If this had happened to one of my children, I would blow that police station wide open until I got answers. How many years have passed since these little girls were slaughtered? When will there be justice? Again, thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation Series XM 111. First of all, regarding the new and chilling details that are just emerging, take a listen to our friends at WISH.

Authorities also found that two articles of clothing from one of the girls was missing from the crime scene while the rest of their clothing was recovered. It also appeared the girls' bodies were moved and staged. The agent goes on to say, based upon my training and experience, it is common for perpetrators of this type of crime to take a souvenir or in some fashion memorialize the crime scene. The agent also references the video on Libby's phone, confirming it was 43 seconds long. Up until now, only a few seconds have been made public. That the girls were followed by the suspect on the Monon High Bridge Trail,

and that there were no visible signs of a struggle or fight. Did you take in what she was just saying on WISH? The first time I heard this, I had to make a chart of what all we are just learning about the murders of Abby and Libby. Missing clothing? What? The killer took some of the girls' clothing? That tells me this absolutely was a sex assault. Why else would he have had them undress or take the clothes off of them. Copious amounts of blood. Heretofore, we had not known the COD cause of death. Now we're learning it was a very bloody crime scene. Staging of the crime. Staging. That typically suggests that the perp was not rando, random.

A random killer kills and is out of there. Who takes time to stage a scene and risk being caught? A souvenir? Is there a possibility the killer who murdered these two little girls took souvenirs from the murder to what? Relive the murders and the rapes if that happened again in his mind over and over and now we know there are 43 seconds of video of who we think is the killer but the public has only been allowed to hear a tiny portion of that. This happened in 2017. Why are they holding it back? With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now,

Dr. Jory Crawson, psychologist, faculty, St. Leo University, author of Operation SOS, Cheryl McCollum, on the case from the get-go, founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, and the star of a hit series, Body Bags, with Joe Scott Morgan. It's a podcast and it's on iHeart. Two special guests joining us now. Kevin Greenlee, attorney and co-host of Murder Sheet Podcast. You can find him on Facebook at the Murder Sheet Discussion Group.

And with him, senior reporter, business insider, co-creator of Murder Sheet and Mystery to Me Podcast. Joining us out of Indianapolis is Anya Kane. First of all, to you, Anya, tell me where this new information was buried. Yeah, this new information was in a search warrant that we obtained from 2017, March of 2017, for the property of Ronald Logan. And he is the man who owned the property where the girls' bodies were found back in February of 2017. Hold on. Let me, you know, I'm drinking from the fire hydrant from you and Kevin Greenlee,

both of you with Murder Sheet Podcast. Ronald Logan, I know the name because he owned the property where the girls' bodies were found. And this was a search warrant where you found this information. Am I understanding that correctly, Anya Kane? That is correct. Yes, it is a search warrant and a probable cause affidavit that the FBI filed to get that search warrant approved. Kevin Greenlee joining me along with Anya Kane from Murder Sheet podcast. Missing clothing, copious amounts of blood, staging. First of all, tell me about these little girls missing clothing. Those details are really chilling and they really chilled us to the bone when we read them in this hey kevin hold on just a second kevin we're saying chilling to me that sounds like a script

and somebody's prompter that some news talking head is reading let's think about what we're hearing two little girls 13 and 14 that's my daughter's age and my son's age. They're twins. A bloody crime scene, which means the girls were stabbed or they were beaten, bludgeoned with a lot of blood and some of their clothes were missing. It's almost out of a horror film, but it's real. And it happened to a 13-year-old girl, like my little girl, and a 14-year-old girl, unarmed at a park. Chilling is certainly airbrushing what we are learning. Isn't it, Kevin Greenlee? It really is. It almost made me physically ill, if you want to know the truth. I live in a neighborhood that has kids of that age,

and to look at them living their lives and think that there is some monster out there who looks at people like that and instead sees them as prey. It's just, it makes you want to vomit. It's really just, it's unbelievable. You know, Cheryl McCollum, you know, Cheryl McCollum is the founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute. We know each other because we have fought in the trenches together. I met her when I was a felony prosecutor for many years in inner city Atlanta.

Never a lack of business in inner city Atlanta. Cheryl, it never has ceased to sicken me. And there were times when I would be trying a case, and you may or may not have known. When everybody would leave for lunch, I would just go to the bathroom and feel nauseous, handling bloody clothes, looking at crime scene victims, especially with children. I've never gotten over who could do this to a child, two little girls. I agree, Nancy. I don't know if I know that you went to the restroom to do that, but I vividly remember you would often touch the entire case file

and just say a quick prayer. I remember that. In this case, you sent me to Delphi more than once, so I've been there. I've walked the scene. I've walked the scene. I've walked the bridge. I've walked the trail leading to the bridge. I've spent time with the family. And one thing that sticks out to me that I want to say right out of the gate, there is a difference in a scene that is staged and a scene that is posed. Tell it.

If this perpetrator staged the scene, they did that for their benefit. So you try to make it look like, oh, this is an accident or a suicide. Posed, which I believe is what this scene is, if they were posed, that is for the offender's gratification. He did something to make it look a certain way that he wanted for sexual gratification. You know who was a freak that did that, right? Just for everybody. Israel Keys. Israel Keys. Oh yeah, Israel Keys. I was thinking of BTK, Dennis Rader. BTK. The buying, torture, kill. He would dress up his victims after he raped and murdered them. A lot of people don't know Ted Bundy would sometimes bathe his victims and he would put

on, fix their hair and makeup. He would then have sex with their skull. But, yes, those are examples of the killer changing or, how do I say, arranging the scene in a way that gratifies their sex fetish. Correct. So, in this case, Cheryl, analyze what you're learning. I believe, again again they were posed i think having them undress and redress having taken an item again that's for his gratification somebody staging a scene wouldn't do that like drew peterson or scott peterson they're trying to think oh somebody else did this this is not what you think she drowned in a dry bathtub bathtub. They're showing you something and telling you it's

something else to fool you. Okay, what she's talking about is the former cop, Drew Peterson, who killed two wives. His third wife, Kathleen Savio, was found dead, covered in bruises, in a dry bathtub to make it look like she had drowned. He killed her. The second wife, Stacey Peterson's body has never been found. I think I know where it is, by the way. But that was staged so no one would ever know that she didn't run off with a fake boyfriend. So to Cheryl's point, staging it to make it look like, hey, I didn't do that, is very different from posing the scene for your own sex gratification.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let me circle back to you, Anya Cain, senior reporter with Business Insider, which I love, and co-creator of Murder Sheep. Anya, tell me the facts that you have learned in your investigation that jump out at you regarding the crime scene of Abby and Liberty. Absolutely, Nancy. One thing that I think is really key for people to take away from this is that the FBI agent who wrote up this affidavit said that the killer most likely, based on the injuries, would have gotten blood all over him. So that makes us wonder, how did this person, potentially covered in blood, manage to escape unseen? That is an excellent thought. What about

it, Joe Scott Morgan? You're the forensics expert. Jump in. Yeah, and I got to tell you, Nancy, after reading this warrant, there's a trove of information here for me, and they give some indication here. It's redacted, but they talk about what type of weapon was used, and right before it says the word, right before the word weapon is written, it's redacted right there, which means blacked out, and there's only two choices here, a blunt weapon or an edged weapon as a descriptor my money right now is on edged weapon because she talks about how much blood this you use the term copious which is just a huge volume of blood

that's involved in this case you're not necessarily going to get that so much with a blunt force type of death, but with an edged weapon, particularly if you're talking about multiple, multiple deep stab wounds, you're going to, the perpetrator will literally be bathed in blood. So how does he get away with this? And I'm thinking that the individual would have had to have a location that they could have escaped to and then stripped all of their clothing off of, off of themselves so that no one's going to. Or left in the cover of darkness. Or left in the cover of darkness.

Yeah, because, you know, that's one of the things we've got a huge gap of time here, don't we, Nancy? You know, relative to the discovery of the bodies, this sort of thing. We know that. So there is a tremendous amount of time that he would have had with these poor young girls. And, you know, Mac had talked about the posing that would have taken place. That in and of itself takes time. So that means that the perpetrator will have spent a tremendous amount of time with these bodies, handling the bodies, all these sorts of tremendous amount of time with these bodies, handling the bodies, all these sorts of things to get them into these positions, not to mention the violence that preceded all of this as well. Okay, let's analyze what you just said, breaking it down. You said

the copious amounts of blood equate to either a blunt force trauma, like beating somebody with a baseball bat or a rock that causes a lot of blood or stabbing them, a sharp edged implement, as you described it. I hear what you're saying. Sharp edged implement would produce a more bloody crime scene. However, you've got the other factor to weigh in that a blunt object would be handy, a rock, a tree limb, something of that nature. So those are two competing interests. I agree with you.

Sharp edge produces more blood, but I can't tell how much blood except copious. Another thing that I read in the search warrant by the FBI, and I quote, a large amount of blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene. It did note how the girls were wounded, but that there were no signs of a struggle or fight. Is that true? Kevin Greenlee joining me from Murder Sheet podcast. Yes, that is exactly what it says. And I also found that to be terribly upsetting because I picture those girls when this attack starts. And I imagine a 13, 14-year-old girl being placed in that kind of danger. Maybe

you just freeze. You can't believe this is happening to you. You're not able to fight back because you're in shock. And it just breaks my heart to think about what those two girls went through in those tragic final moments. And the posing of the bodies would have to have been done post-mortem after they were killed. To Dr. Jory Cross and psychologists joining us, faculty, St. Leo University and author, what do you make of it? Let me add a point here. I use the word loosely, treating sex offenders, but the big thing with sex offenders is the fantasy. In a treatment, you always need to get into their fantasy. So posing

the scene is part of their fantasy that they're going to take away with them and relive. Okay. The fantasy is going to be better than what really occurred. They're going to work that in their mind. And that's going to become, like I say, it could be a masturbatorial type activity, but that fantasy is going to be the takeaway from there. So the posing of the bodies is going to be very important to him. That's going to be the image he's going to take with him for the fantasy life. Take a look at our Cut 17, our friends at Fox 59.

Murder Sheet, a podcast investigating the unsolved murders of Abby Williams and Libby German, provided us a copy of this search warrant, and it reveals new facts about the crime scene where the girls' bodies were found out back on Ron Logan's Carroll County property on February 14, 2017. This is the gate they left down. Two days after the bodies were discovered, Ron Logan showed us around his property that backs up to Deer Creek and sits at the bottom of the gorge where the Monon High Bridge towers up above where Libby German and Abby Williams met the man who took their lives.

This is the kind of scene down there. See how the ground's much more matted down right in there? I think they're right there. The search warrant from March 17th, 2017 recently made public reveals. Libby German shot 43 seconds of video on her cell phone of this man following them on the bridge at approximately 2.13 p.m. on February 13. Let me ask you, to you, Anya Kane with Murder Sheet, 43 seconds, but police have only released sound that they play on a loop. Maybe we got three or four seconds. Why are they holding it back? I mean, it's been five years.

That's an excellent question, Nancy. And honestly, I don't know. It has been five years. I think more information at this point could really help potentially close it. I guess the other possibility is that there's not much on the rest of it. We do know that this exchange with the man saying guys down the hill happened at the end of the video. So in the beginning, it could have possibly been just the girls talking. Of course, I'm just speculating here, but that might be a reason.

I think anything that they said would be valuable at this point. Like if they said, hey, here he comes again, that would tell me he had been stalking them. Something they said to start with could be probative. It could prove something. Take a listen now to our cut 18, our friend Russ McQuaid. Libby German shot 43 seconds of video on her cell phone of this man following them on the bridge at approximately 2 13 p.m. on February 13th and at noon the next day the girl's bodies were found on Logan's property. There was quite a loss of blood and the investigators think the killer may have gotten some of that blood on him. An item of clothing was missing from one of the girls and, quote,

it also appeared the girls' bodies were moved and staged, leading investigators to theorize that the killer took a souvenir from the crime scene and maybe took pictures. It looked to investigators like the girls died without putting up a fight. Unknown fibers and hairs were collected from the scene. I'm very curious, Kevin Greenlee. What do we know about unknown hair and fiber collected from the scene of the girls' murders? One thing that was mentioned specifically was that they recovered animal hairs from the crime scene. Now, of course, that could be animal hairs. You know,

we're in a park. Who knows? People are walking their dogs and such. But we do know that one of the persons of interest in this case, Peg and Klein, live in a home with a pit bull. And we do know that police raided that home a few months ago and they took that pit bull, presumably to test to see if the hairs match. Brilliant. Brilliant. You know, the bodies of the girls, Abby and Liberty, were found about 1,400 feet from the home of Ron Logan.

He was questioned. He was never named a suspect. Agree or disagree, Anya Kane? Yeah, that's a great question. I would say that Logan, here's the thing. They filed the search warrant and executed it in March of 2017. We never heard about it afterward. He died after having some legal trouble over his DUIs, but never being charged for this case. So one has to imagine that they weren't able to find enough to charge him, or perhaps some other evidence came up

to make them look another way. There's certain compelling things within this search warrant, but nothing that necessarily points to a history of being violent with children. Yeah, well, there was nothing to say that Scott Peterson would kill his wife and unborn child either. So I've heard that argument many, many times before. He's never done anything like this. So what? You're just the messenger. I get it, Anya. But I don't like the message. Take a listen. We're speaking of Ron Logan. Take a listen to our Cut 15, our friends at WISH-TV. The search warrant is for the property of Ronald Logan, who owned the land where the girls were found dead. It describes his activity the day the girls went missing.

The agent says Logan claimed someone drove him to an aquarium store in Lafayette on the afternoon of February 13th, at the time the girls disappeared. But the agent says these statements were found to be factually false and intentionally designed to deceive law enforcement officers. The agent says Logan contacted his cousin and asked him to tell that story before the bodies were found. Based on investigators' experience, it is reasonable to believe that the creation of an alibi prior to the discovery of a crime indicates culpability or knowledge of the crime. That sounds really technical, but what I think they're saying, Dr. Jory Crawson, joining me from St. Leo University, is this guy Ron Logan asked his cousin to lie about an alibi the afternoon of the double murders before the bodies were found. Did I get that right?

Yes. He either knows more than he's telling. There's possibilities involved. You know, when you look at that time window, too, with the posing, that took time. And if you know the environment, if you're safe and secure within that environment of the crime, you're going to take time to pose because, you know, like, hey, I'm 1,400 feet away from my residence. 1,400 feet away from the two dead bodies. Nancy. Yeah, you know, I was just going to go to you.

It seems to me if he had time to come out with an alibi, he'd have time to move the bodies away from his house. Yeah, I would think so. And he would have points of view. He would understand the topography, the lay of the land, if you will. You know, where can you see? You know, if you're up on that bridge and just ask Max, he was there. You can look down. You can surveil the whole area.

You know, we're at a point where you can hide. But one thing I would like to include here, since we're talking that this guy has died now, this Logan fellow, I hope, I truly hope that at some point in time, they took a DNA sample from this guy. Now, I know that we've talked about dog hairs and all this sort of thing. Well, yeah. I know for a fact that they did. As a matter of fact, take a listen, Joe Scott. This may ease your mind, to our cut 19, our friends at Fox 59. The search warrant authorized investigators to seize any guns or knives Logan had in his house, take a sample of his blood or bodily fluids, and his cell phone.

This is my backyard. My backyard just happens to be bigger than most people. How many people have a murder committed at their home in their backyard? The FBI agent who requested this search warrant wrote, quote, I believe there is probable cause to believe that Ronald Logan has committed the crime of murder. The document shows Logan created a false alibi for the time the murders were committed, but he was never charged in the case. Logan was sentenced to four years in prison for violating probation in a drunk driving case, and that may be why he lied to investigators. We don't know if the search warrant turned up any evidence specifically related to the Delphi case. Now there's a really interesting point. Sometimes people lie for a reason you don't understand. Like they were high on pot. They were having an affair. That's their alibi. They don't want to get their lover in

trouble. There's a lot of reasons why people may come up with a lie that doesn't mean they're the killer. I've got my sights on another guy. Keegan Klein. Take a listen to our cut 20 wthr the transcript from the police interview was first obtained by a podcast called the murder sheet from a public court record that's now sealed klein gave the interview in august of 2020 after his arrest on child pornography and exploitation charges the interview confirms the the fake social media profile Anthony Schatz communicated with Libby German just before her disappearance. And in the police interview, Klein tells investigators, I literally have no clue how that girl died.

I don't know anything, anything to do with it. Yeah, that is a weird coincidence that I happened to talk to her like I get that. After the bodies of Libby and Abby were found on February 14, 2017, investigators say the Anthony Schatz profile told someone that he was supposed to meet up with Libby, but she didn't show up. Why the hell are you meeting up with a 13 or 14-year-old little girl? Anya Cain joining me, senior reporter, business insider, and co-creator, Murder Sheet. What do you make of Keegan Klein?

We already know he had created this big fake social media post to make him look like, kind of like a young Justin Bieber kind of ish, which he looks nothing like in real life. And what is he doing trolling for 13 and 14 year old little girls? That's a great question. I mean, what police are saying, what they're accusing him of is basically pretending to be this hot, rich guy who has a lot of money and cool cars in order to form romantic attachments with underage girls online and basically trick them into sending him inappropriate nude pictures of themselves. It's a really disgusting, heinous operation that he's been linked to with this Anthony Schatz profile.

And so what's really interesting about him, as per the Delphi case, is we know that Anthony Schatz, the profile, was in communication with Liberty German right before her murder. When you say right before, what do you mean by right before? The day before? The week before? The hour before? As far as we know from the police interview, the evening before at the very least they were in communication. And was he trying to meet her? What we know from the police in that interview is they say Libby was apparently enthralled by this profile and that she wanted to meet up with him. She was being potentially catfished by this person who, of course, looked nothing and was nothing like what he portrayed online. I'm very curious, Cheryl McCollum. You've got Ron Logan, who made up an alibi for the time

of the murders before the bodies were found. Now you've got Keegan Klein, a real POS, technical legal term. How do you compare the two, Cheryl? Well, I mean, you've got to look at Logan right out the gate. They were found on his property. And then you find out he kind of looks like the picture on the bridge. And then law enforcement can't rule his voice out. And then you've got the fact that he not only lies about an aled outside on the 13th going toward the bridge. You cannot ignore that. You cannot ignore it. Exactly. Well, then you've got, you know, Keegan Klein, who's looking at 30 charges of child porn, who actually had communication with one of the victims. There ain't no way in hell to ignore him. I'd be all about him until he could clear that up for me, which I don't think he can do. Because remember when police showed up, he said, and I quote, I'm and I agree with him. I think he is. And I think he should go

away for the rest of time because you're talking about somebody that in broad daylight with people all around on a rickety, extremely high bridge that in a public park takes on two victims. This is a person that assumed a ton of risk. Of course, they're going to have blood on them. Not only that, they have an article of clothing from that victim that I can only assume, based on my training and experience, is going to be underwear. Underwear, of course, all day. But that's what you're talking about. You're talking about one person that can simply just walk right by their house, put their clothes in the washing machine, get in the shower, get the blood off of them.

You're talking about another person that can walk from the crime scene to that cemetery, get in his own car, drive away. Nobody's looking for either one of them. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To you, Kevin Greenlee, Keegan Klein versus Ron Logan. What do you think? Well, that's a tough question because Keegan Klein, we know, was, as we've said, he was communicating with Abby. Pardon me, he was communicating with Libby. And we know he had an unnatural interest in young girls of that age.

So we know he has that interest. On the other hand, Ron Logan is there. And Ron Logan is lying about his alibi on the day of. And Ron Logan certainly looks more like the picture of Bridge Guy than Kagan Klein does. Absolutely. Guys, take a listen to Our Cut 22. Our friends at WTHR. It was shocking to me. That's how Mike Patti describes learning that someone using the social media profile

Anthony underscore shots had been talking online with his granddaughter Libby before her death, and that whoever was using that profile the day Libby and Abby Williams were murdered had plans to meet Libby on a trail near Delphi that same day, and ended up being one of the last people to talk with the teen before she and Abby were killed. I've been led along by the police this entire time that there wasn't any information there. Obviously, that was a piece of information they were holding tight to their vest. But those details came out last month when a pair of local podcasters found a transcript online of an interview police did with this man, Kagan Klein, in August 2020, shortly after they arrested him on child exploitation charges. That 194-page document has since been sealed, but in it, investigators questioned Klein about the social media profile they say he admitted to creating six months before Libby and Abby

were murdered to meet and get nude photos from underage girls. To meet and get nude photos with underage girls? Did he meet Abby and Libby the day they were murdered? And what about this document we're just learning about? If it hadn't been for Murder Sheet Podcast, would it have stayed buried forever? Take a listen to our cut 13, our friends at WISH. This nine-page request for a search warrant filed March 17th of 2017. Now that's a little more than a month after Libby German and Abby Williams were found murdered in Delphi. This disturbing document for the first time gives us an investigator's description of the crime scene and what the suspect may have taken with him. IT Mate obtained the request for the search warrant from the

Murder Sheet podcast, the same group that first published the interview transcript of Anthony Schott's suspect, Kagan Klein. IT Mate has confirmed the document is authentic. The document written by an FBI agent describes what investigators found when they discovered the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German on February 14th. The agent writes, a large amount of blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene. Because of the nature of the victim's wounds, it is nearly certain the perpetrator of the crime would have gotten blood on his person or clothing. To Anya Kane joining us, co-creator of Murder Sheet podcast, what do you find to be the most probative evidence that you have uncovered in this FBI document and what do you believe it means? It's a great question. I would say what I find to be the most compelling here is all the details about the crime scene.

So I'm talking about the blood. I'm talking about the brutality of the attack. And I'm talking about the fact that the killer would have left covered in blood and left behind possible fibers, hairs, and whatnot. That, I think, gives us a sense of how this crime took place and what these girls went through and the sort of horror that's at the heart of this whole thing. You know, I think it's easy to forget sometimes for people when they're just kind of like trying to solve the puzzle and what happens, but like to realize how horrific this attack really was and how brutal the killer had to be to do this to a 13-year-old and a 14-year-old and how cowardly just gives us a sense of what kind of person would do this

and just how twisted the mind of this person had to be. To psychologist Dr. Jory Crawson joining us right now, what kind of a person are we looking for? What kind of a person would kidnap two little girls, most likely rape or sodomize them, and then brutally murder them either with blunt force such as a rock or a softball bat or an edged instrument such as a knife which means he came to the scene with the weapon and then take their underwear what kind of mind is that there's a couple things that come to my mind right off and first off I want to know if there was any semen fluid left as any kind of evidence. That would show like some sort of a completion of

a sexual act. The perpetrator may not have been able to perform any kind of a sexual act. And then that would come out in the level of violence that could manifest. And that, to me, would account for the bleeding out. I don't know what you're saying. Crossen, talk regular talk, please. What are you saying? That his form of sexual release is to torture and murder as opposed to obtaining an erection and ejaculating? Yeah, the violence and the rage.

I would also think that this perpetrator had a prior history. You said couldn't perform. What are you saying? Talk English to me, man. Okay, he's not able to sexually perform. That rage is released through the violence of either cutting or beating him.

I mean, this is a 13-year-old little girl that from, I believe, what you were saying earlier, Kevin Greenlee, joining me from Murder Sheep podcast, I think they froze. My little girl, and I've told this story before as an example, Lucy and John David and I were walking our dog. He's this big. We got him at the pound. He was supposed to be a dachshund. I don't know what he is. He's a mutt. And he tries to start a fight with every dog we see. He actually started a fight with two Rottweilers. They're huge, big things with like teeth. They're teeth. Well, I of course had him on a leash. And Lucy, my little girl, was walking him. Well, he got away from her. He jerked loose and he ran and got between the two Rottweilers and was biting at them, barking at them. Well, I ran over. My son ran over. I pushed him back. I don't know why I did this, but I got

in there and got the dog out between two Rottweilers. I turned around at Lucy. She was still standing there holding the leash, like shock on her face. She's frozen. That's what I'm talking about. I think they froze Kevin Greenlee. I think that's absolutely what happened. These are two little girls living in a small town in the heartland of America. They're not used to this sort of horror. And thank God for that, because this is not a part of their lives. And so when they confronted this, I think they were just terrified and didn't know what to do. And that just made it, unfortunately, even easier for this monster to do what he did to them. Psychologically, that's freeze and submit syndrome. It's like the fight and flight, but when you're too young or not knowledgeable enough to

take fight or flight, you freeze and submit. What, Cheryl? I was just going to say, if you listen to the killer's voice, he is calm. There's no rage. There's no adrenaline. He just simply says, hey guys, down the hill. He is so autopilot in that he exposed to them and immediately had them under control. That's why they didn't run in opposite directions. That's why when he's talking, you don't hear any sounds or words or anything from them. He is in complete control. No question about it.

Yeah, Nancy, I got to tell you, I think this guy showed up prepared. The idea that he would pull up at the scene and seek out a weapon of convenience, like something to bludgeon them with, this guy showed up prepared. Yeah, you're right. I think that there may even be restraint involved in this. I don't know what form it's going to take, but rope or some kind of binding, I think. And torture is part of this as well. I think that, again, out of my bailiwick, but I think that that's part of what kind of blows his hair back here. Guys, if you have any information or think you have information, even if you believe you're not sure, please dial 765-822-3535.

Repeat, 765-822-3535. Thank you to everyone on our panel today, especially our new friends from Murder Sheet Podcast. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.