Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BLOODY AMBUSH ON 2 KANSAS MOMS; AUTOPSIES SHOW TORTURE?

Episode Date: December 15, 2024

The full autopsy reports on Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelley have been released. Both reports identify the cause of death as multiple sharp force trauma. The reports list a total of 30 wounds on each victim, including 9 stab wounds and 21 cuts. Many of Butler's wounds were consistent with defensive injuries. A police affidavit states that Tifany Adams allegedly made statements implicating herself in the deaths of Butler and Kelley. Investigators believe Butler and Kelley were lured to the location, arriving around 9:40 a.m. Officers found pools of blood, Butler’s glasses on the ground, and a broken hammer at the scene. Police believe the women were then forced into another vehicle. The probable cause affidavit contains extensive details, but the women’s causes of death were not initially disclosed. Their bodies were discovered in a cattle pasture leased by Tad Bert Cullum, the boyfriend of Tifany Adams. Cellphone data from three burner phones purchased by Adams helped narrow down the location. The phones first pinged near Butler's abandoned car, and the data later led police to the pasture. Officers found signs of digging. A hole, which had been refilled, contained the bodies of the two women. Investigators cite a custody battle over Butler’s two children as the motive. The custody dispute had lasted more than five years. Butler’s ex-partner, Wrangler Rickman, who is Adams’ son, had custody of the children. However, Rickman was confirmed to be in a rehabilitation facility in Oklahoma City at the time. Butler was allowed supervised visitation with her children every Saturday. According to her attorney, she was likely to gain unsupervised visitation in an upcoming hearing. The affidavit states, “Adams vehemently opposed this and went to great lengths to plan and purchase items used in Butler and Kelley’s murders.” It continues, “Adams, Cullum, Cole, and Cora were willing to kidnap and murder two victims to limit visitation for Butler.” Court documents also allege that Adams and her accomplices attempted to kill Butler in February. Adams, her boyfriend, and another couple reportedly drove to Butler’s home near Hugoton, Kansas, intending to kill her. A witness told investigators the plan was to throw an anvil through Butler’s windshield to make it appear as an accident, but Butler did not leave her home. State investigators retrieved data from Adams’ phone showing searches for terms such as “taser pain level,” “gun shops,” “prepaid cellular phones,” and “how to get someone out of their house.” According to the documents, Adams purchased five stun guns before the women disappeared. She also bought three prepaid burner phones from a nearby Walmart. All the burner phones stopped transmitting on the morning of the women’s disappearance. After the attack, the bodies were reportedly stored in a sealed freezer before being buried 4 to 8 feet underground. Joining Nancy Grace Today:   Kelly Hyman- Trial & Civil Attorney, TV Legal Analyst, Podcast Host: "Once Upon a Crime In Hollywood", Twitter: @kellyhyman1, TikTok: @kelly.hyman, Instagram: @Kelly_Hyman1  Sheryl McCollum  – Forensics Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder; Host of Podcast: “Zone 7;” X: @149Zone7 Irv Brandt – Senior Inspector, US Marshals Service International Investigations Branch; Chief Inspector, DOJ Office of International Affairs, US Embassy Kingston, Jamaica; Author: “SOLO SHOT: CURSE OF THE BLUE STONE” – AVAILABLE ON AMAZON IN JANUARY; ALSO “FLYING SOLO: Top of the World;” Twitter: @JackSoloAuthor Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth) and Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School Lauren Conlin – Investigative Journalist, Host of The Outlier Podcast, and also Host of “Corruption: What Happened to Grant Solomon; X- @Conlin_Lauren/ Instagram- @LaurenEmilyConlin/YouTube- @LaurenConlin4  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In the last days, we learned how the murdered Kansas moms were killed. One murdered Kansas mom suffering 30 stab wounds, including additional cut wounds where she tried to defend herself according to the official autopsy. This autopsy showing shocking details about how the Kansas moms, wait, let me just start over. Two Kansas moms, Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly ambushed as they traveled together to a children's birthday party. In the last days, devastating evidence emerges.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Autopsy results of the two murdered moms emerge, and we learn one murdered Kansas mom suffered 30 stab wounds and cut wounds as she tried valiantly to defend herself. This, according to an official autopsy, the autopsy revealing shocking details about how the Kansas moms were killed by this odd, peculiar religious gang. Grizzly autopsy reports reveal how the two Kansas moms were murdered on a road trip to Oklahoma on their way to a birthday party, allegedly at the hands of a brutal religious cult offshoot. How did it all unfold? Listen. The planned meeting place for Veronica Butler to pick up her children was a closed gas station near the intersection of Oklahoma State Highway 95 and Road L. The area is flat and desolate. There are no trees or homes

nearby, as well as no traffic cameras. This is where Melissa and Joey Padilla, relatives of Veronica Butler, found her car, after the mom didn't arrive at a birthday party for one of her children. The car was abandoned, and there were pools of blood nearby, so they called police. Investigators now say they believe Butler and Jillian Kelly were lured to the location, arriving around 9.40 a.m. Besides the pools of blood, officers found Butler's glasses on the ground near a broken hammer. Kelly's purse was also found. Inside was a gun magazine, but no weapon.

Police say the women were forced into another vehicle. The women's phones stopped sending signals at 9.42 a.m. Only that official court documents seemingly reveal that this was not their first attempt on the young mom. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we are learning, stunning and chilling details emerging. First, straight out to Lauren Conlon, investigative journalist, host of The Outlier podcast. Lauren, thank you for being with us. You've been on the case from the very beginning. I can't believe what I am seeing in this affidavit. A granny, a killer granny suspect uses a bulldozer, guns. Lauren, what's happening? This is so tragic. It came out

in these affidavits that this was not the first attempt to take Veronica Butler's life. They were planning to do something in February where an anvil would go through her windshield. As this was very common in the area, they would fall off construction trucks and they believed. Okay, please tell me you aren't somehow a victim of Stockholm Syndrome because anvils don't just fall out of the air into people's cars. I don't care where it is. I mean, hold on right there. Cheryl McCollum is joining me, founder, director

of the Cold Case Research Institute, forensics expert. As a matter of fact, she's joining me right now from her squad car. Cheryl, host of a hit new podcast, Zone 7. I know maybe in crazy granny's world, an anvil falling from the sky or off a truck into the young mom's car sounds reasonable.

It's not, Cheryl. It's not reasonable. It is not reasonable. You're talking about something that is so heavy. There's no way it's going to fall off a truck. And if it does, it's simply going to land three feet onto the pavement, not up five to six feet through her windshield. So again, when you're talking about plotting and planning a murder and your baseline is Wiley Coyote, you've got problems from the get-go. This was asinine at best.

Can I ask you something, Cheryl McCollum? I know you're comparing them to a, and their plan to a Wile E. Coyote plot, but these two women are dead. Six children between them. And I don't care what anybody says including a shrink that will tell me how wrong i am there is nothing that can replace your mother nothing amen and it may be a far-fetched plan it may be but these ladies are dead not just the young mom who is her right there, just going to throw a birthday party for her

children. That's Veronica Butler, just 27 years old. But then you've got the other lady, the church secretary, preacher wife. She's dead too. Jillian Kelly in her 30s, the prime of her life. She was just doing a ride along to facilitate the visitation and the pickup of mom's babies, six children without a mom. So I don't care how zany their plot is. There were pools of blood left around this young mom's car because in my mind of killer

granny, may she rot in hell. And let me point out as Kelly Hyman will tell me pretty quickly, they're innocent until proven guilty. And you can all quit telling me that on Twitter. I know that. I know they're not guilty yet, but I guarantee you they will be because of a track a mile wide. Isn't that right, Lauren Conlon? A mile wide. Tell me about the evidence we're learning out of this warrant right here. Okay, so this is crazy. So first and foremost, they got a search warrant on, I believe it was March 31st for Tiffanyams's phone so they searched on her phone and they find searches uh that read taser pain level where to buy a gun at different gun shops in the area and then where to get prepaid cell phones and then how to get someone out of their house now in the meantime her boyfriend

you know what you're just like spouting all this damning information like it's a fire hydrant, Lauren Conlon. Too much, too fast. OK, I'm drinking from the fire hydrant. You said look up the pain level of a taser. That was the mother-in-law's, let's just say Google search. She searched the pain level of a taser. She did. She searched pain level. I got to go now to an eminent guest joining me, Dr. Kendall Crowns. He is the chief medical examiner in Tarrant County.

That's Fort Worth near Dallas. Lecturer, University of Texas and Christian University Medical School. And he is joining us right now from his office at the Medical Examiners. Dr. Crowns, thank you for being with us. I had a good friend at CNN who actually tasered himself and a good friend at Court TV that followed up on it to make sure it really hurt. God rest his soul, Michael Christian. So Dr. Kendall Crowns, tell me how a taser works. And this is what was the plan. This is the plan to use on two unarmed moms. A taser. How does it work and how badly does it hurt Dr. Crowns. So conductive electronic devices like Taser work by injecting prongs into your skin and then using these skins moisture to conduct electricity across it and then send a large

amount of electricity into your body, basically shocking you. The shock itself causes a tremendous amount of pain, causes you to spasm and then collapse. See, that's why I have to work with you so much before I could put you on the stand. Conductive electronic device. What are you talking about? Can you dumb me down for me, please? Just saying, regular people talk how a taser works and the amount of pain. What can we compare it to? Conductive electronic devices is what a taser is. Taser themselves prefer you call it a conductive electronic device because not all conductive electronic devices are tasers. It's like a Xerox machine is a copier etc so it is basically electricity being forced into

your body high amounts of electricity it would be like use putting a fork into a wall socket you get the same kind of experience from that except the wall socket doesn't cause as much electricity to go through you as a taser does. As a general rule, a taser start with a baseline of 50,000 volts of electricity. 50,000 volts of electricity. What does that mean, Dr. Kendall-Crowns? That's the high amount of electricity. It's higher than basically your standard current in your house. So it's a large amount of electricity. It's higher than basically your standard current in your house. So it's a large amount of electricity being put into your body all at once. Just think about it. Think about it, Cheryl McCollum. This evil mother-in-law was prepared to use 50,000 volts of electricity

minimum on the victims in this case, two unarmed women. She didn't care if she caused that amount of pain. But let's talk even more basic in the beginning. You've got four people and two women. It doesn't take a taser to control them. If you ambush two unsuspecting victims with four people, you're going to be able to control them fairly easily. I believe that the stun gun was for torture. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. According to the autopsies from the state medical examiner, Dr. Celia Cobb, Kelly suffered nine stab wounds and seven cuts to her back and seven cuts to the back of her neck and head. She also suffered a fractured vertebra and damaged spinal cord when she was killed,

stun gun marks on her neck, and cuts to her hand, indicating she tried to defend herself. Her friend, 27-year-old Veronica Butler, tragically killed in a very similar manner. Both women reported found in, quote, pools of blood. Veronica suffered a total of 30 sharp force injuries, including sliced fingers, consistent with attempting to defend herself. That's straight out of the autopsy report. And she was also found with stun gun marks to the back of her neck. The autopsies indicate both women were believed to have been killed before they were placed in a deep chest freezer. The freezer found under concrete slab and buried eight feet below the surface. Kelly Hyman, I mean, this gang, which they call themselves God's Misfits, have left a trail a mile wide.

The state's going to have a field day with this. This is a horrible story for these young kids to lose their mother. And we always, when we look at things as why do people do this? What was their motive behind this? What was their reasoning behind this? That's key. And allegedly they were in some big family dispute, bitter dispute that left these beautiful kids without a mother. Ultimately, Nancy, as you said, you are innocent until proven guilty. But there is allegedly a lot of evidence coming out that's going to make a strong case for the state. I need to bring up the innocent until proven guilty part. What more do we know, guys? Straight out to Lauren Conlon.

Guns, bulldozers, tasers, stun guns. What more do we know, Lauren? And all of this is to take out two innocent unarmed mothers? Yes, let me stop you. There have been no guns found, just stun guns. So this is actually really interesting. i'm a bit confused i came across i think it was yesterday or the day before it was on uh an outlet called the oklahoman and you have to pay for a lot of these articles i did not pay but i did find a little snippet where the medical examiner said i don don't believe they were shot. And I'm going through all

of these affidavits, the arrest affidavits, all the probable cause. And I, I don't see any guns. And as Dave Mack said, you know, Jillian Kelly had a pistol magazine in her purse, but there were no guns. So all we have here is burner phones and stun guns. And then we have the equipment that I was going to get to. So Tad Cullum, Tiffany's boyfriend, he rented some land about eight miles away from where their vehicle was initially found, Veronica and Jillian's. And he rented equipment like bulldozers and all these names that my son would know, skid steers. He'd be much better than, than I am at this. And he, he ends up digging a hole in this property and then covering it with hay. And this area is the last place where the women's phones were actually

pinged this area. And the property owner, I believe his name is Jamie Beasley. He had no idea what was going on. So when authorities, you know, send all those trucks to get the, to get the women, to get the bodies, once they get the tip, he's crying. He's like, oh my gosh, I had no idea. And just in complete and utter shock. And joining me, Cheryl McCollum, founder, director, Cold Case Research Institute and forensics expert. Cheryl, I can see all the digital fingerprint footprint adding up, placing the moms at this location.

And coincidentally, the same location where the burner phones were turned off. But I want to talk about the mag, the magazine, the gun magazine found in one of the victim's purses. There's no indication that either of the victims had a gun. And when I say a magazine, I'm talking about a mag, not a clip. A mag feeds rounds into the gun chamber as it's being fired. So what do you make of a mag being found? Not verified a lot of information. They're playing this close to the vest, which they should. But, you know, let's say you are going with somebody to meet, you know, ex-family members that they've been fighting with for nine years.

Maybe somebody gave her something to, you know, protect herself. We don't know if this was her, you know, potential part of a weapon or perpetrator. We don't know yet. And, you know, we don't know yet. And, you know, all we do know is there are pools of blood at the scene, a broken hammer. So was somebody shot? Was somebody hit in the head? Blood force trauma?

We don't know yet. Guys, we are learning that a minor, we believe it to be a teen girl has turned informant. Take a listen to this. The teenager told police that she had heard conversation among the adults that Adams' grandchildren were at risk when they were with Butler. She told investigators that Adams had provided burner phones so that personal devices were not needed to communicate. The girl said she had seen two of the phones charging on her mother's nightstand. The day before the murders, Adam's boyfriend, Colm, 43,

had asked the owner of the property he rented if he could do some work there with his skid steer, a kind of bulldozer. According to the owner's conversation with police, Colm reportedly said he wanted to cut down a tree, remove a stump, and bury some concrete. The teen said she heard that her mother and stepfather blocked the road, diverting the women to where the others were waiting. When asked why Kelly had to die, her mother reportedly said because Kelly supported Butler she wasn't innocent the child asked Cora Twombly if they had put the bodies in a well she was told something like that wow it's always difficult to put a child on the stand during a jury trial but sometimes you have to this teen girl revealing so much of what was going on in the home before the murders in the

home of the suspects. Straight back out to Lauren Collin joining us, investigative journalist and host of The Outlier. So a skid steer is a kind of bulldozer. Where were the two moms' bodies found? So they were found by a dam in that rented area of the property. So I'm assuming that they were somewhat covered by this hay and the fresh dirt, I believe they called it, the soil, and they were easy to find. I also, I want to point something out as well, Nancy. Per the witness, Cora told her or her daughter, whoever the witness was, that things didn't go according to plan. This mission did not go according to plan. So I don't know exactly what that means, but I have a hunch it has something to do with a possible fifth suspect that hasn't been arrested. But that's just my take. Joining me right now, former U.S. Marshal Service International Investigations Branch, author of Flying Solo on Amazon, Irv Brandt, joining us.

Irv Brandt, did you hear what Lauren Conlon just said? read it in the official court docs that this gang, God's Misfits, said they were on a mission. They call murdering these two young moms a mission? What, a mission from hell? That's exactly what it was, Nancy. These people are obviously deranged. They're not criminal masterminds. They had a previous murder plan that didn't pan out. Then they go into this elaborate plan using stun guns and a bulldozer, but they leave a trail a mile wide for police investigators to follow. Nancy, I've never seen anything like this. They might as well have written out a confession and signed it and sent it to the police. Soon after the bodies were found, police arrested Butler's children's paternal grandmother, Tiffany Adams, well, that's a mother-in-law from hell, along with her boyfriend, Tad Cullum,

alongside Cole Twombly and Cora Twombly, all have been charged with murder. But in the last days, this autopsy speaks volumes. The full autopsy report for the second Kansas mom buried in a freezer in a cow pasture after being reported missing on a road trip just released. Much of the medical examiner's deductions is found in this phrase, quote, given the extent of Ms. Butler's injuries, including defects to both of her internal jugular veins with resultant exsanguination bleeding out. It is my opinion her death was very quick and likely occurred before she was placed inside the freezer and buried. The autopsy goes on to say, quote,

This opinion is additionally supported by the fact her body appeared to have remained exactly how it was placed inside the freezer. OK, what does that mean? Was her body folded or crumpled up? The autopsy on Veronica was released about two weeks after the report on Jillian Kelly, the other mom missing on the road trip. That report revealed even more details about her death. What more do we know about that fateful day and the people now charged with murder? Earlier, I think we heard Cheryl McCollum compare it to Wile E. Coyote, their plot. And I admonished her because we've got two dead moms. But actually, it does sound

like something out of the Apple dumpling gang except nobody ever died in those movies where they've been watching way too many movies with the burner phones and the rendezvous point and the bull i mean how much more obvious can it be or brandt than to rent a bulldozer or to bring over your bulldozer? Nancy, I mean, I can't even give you a reasonable explanation for their line of thinking. This is just not, it's like Cheryl Mack said, it's something out of a cartoon trying to drop an acne anvil on their head. I don't know where these people came up with their ideas. When they started researching it online, that amounts to, you know, someone saying, well, I want to poison someone,

then doing it, you know, researching it on their computer, then ordering poison off of Amazon to carry out the murder. I can't give you an explanation, Nancy. I'm sorry. The teen told police that she was told that her mother and stepfather would be gone that Saturday when the teen woke up. She was told they were going to be on a mission. And as she was told, the Twomblies were not home when she woke up around 10 a.m. She says the couple came back around noon in their pickup and a flatbed pickup owned by a relative. The teen says she was told to clean the interior of the Chevrolet pickup.

When she asked what had happened, she was told things had not gone as planned, but that they would not have to worry about Butler again. At the same time that the Twomblies arrived home, Tiffany Adams went to pick up her grandchildren at the home of the other couple who hosted God's misfits meetings, the affidavit said. Joining me in All-Star panel, Cheryl McCollum, did you hear that? They used their own vehicle. They used their own computer. They used their own cell phones to send text messages. They spoke in front of witnesses. Again, for four people to plot and plan, they made such severe mistakes. I agree with her. They might as well have just done a confession from the get-go because it was obvious who did it. You and I talked to Nancy

about, you know, the victims left a town of 1,200 people to go to a town of 281 people. Your suspect pool was people right off the bat according to the witness that has emerged this teen girl was told the mother her i guess boyfriend and two others who claim to be quote god's misfits were on a quote mission they were i'm reading from the affidavit, they were going to be on a mission. She woke up around 10 a.m. They all came back around noon. The defendants in a pickup and a flatbed owned by a relative. And she, the teen girl, was told to clean the interior of the Chevrolet pickup. What does that mean to me? That means

that at least one of these mothers was transported to a burial site in the Chevy pickup. When the girl asked what happened, she was told things had quote, not gone as planned, but they would never have to worry about Butler, that being 27 year old-old mom Veronica Butler, again. At the same time, Tiffany Adams goes to pick up the grandchildren elsewhere. Another couple's home who hosted God's Misfits meetings. What does that say to me? That tells me, out to Kelly Hyman, a veteran trial lawyer, that there are other people, the ones that were babysitting the children during all of this, that knew about the plan, and they're going to be state's witnesses along with this teen girl, as if I don't have enough information and enough

evidence anyway. Now, these babysitters, the other God's misfits, they're going to be witnesses or they could always be charged for aiding and abetting. And I don't think they want to go to the pen for that. You bring up a really good point. Yes. So if people overheard this, they could potentially be the state's witness. And what that means is they will testify in the trial of saying what they've heard or potentially if they could potentially be charged with aiding and abetting and assisting in this. In fact, if they don't, if they help assist with this murder and stuff like that. So it'll be interesting to see what transpires in the coming next days and who turns as a state witness or potentially are there going to be additional charges for people who overheard stuff and were potentially involved in this as well. Back to Dr. Kendall Crowns

joining us out of Tarrant County, Fort Worth from the medical examiner's office. Dr. Crowns, again, thank you for being with us. We're trying to determine whether the manner of death was shooting or stabbing. I know the bodies had been buried haphazardly. Would you be able to tell and how the manner and cause of death? Certainly, you'd be able to determine the cause of death based on the injury patterns. Even though they had been buried, it won't take away the damage to the body, especially to the skeletal system. And then the manner of death would be fairly easy. The fact that they've been buried out in the middle of nowhere, they've obviously been killed, so it's going to be a homicide. So determining between gunshot wounds, stabbings, or beatings, it would just be looking at the injury patterns on the body based on the information you

already had, pools of blood, broken hammer. The fact that they were talking about using an anvil in the first place makes me feel like they've probably beaten these individuals to death using a hammer after they stunned them. Okay, you know, Dr. Kimmel-Crowns, I understand what you're saying. Now, you believe there's a very strong potential of the two victims being beaten dead with a hammer. And why do you say that? Because there's a broken hammer at the scene, there's pools of blood, and they had been talking about doing blunt force trauma to the individuals in the first place using an anvil. So it doesn't sound like they had planned to use guns all along, that they kind of planned to use blunt force trauma.

So it makes me think that they used the stun guns to kind of subdue them and then just beat them to death with a hammer. You know, Dr. Kendall Crowns, I was thinking gun because of the amount of blood pools of blood there. And I attributed the hammer handle to breaking the windshield because a witness stated she had driven by and it was around 10 a.m. The moms left for their journey, a 45 minute drive around 9 a.m. And at 10 a.m. a female witness drives by and sees their vehicle and sees a window on the driver's side busted out. Now I attributed the discovery of the hammer handle to breaking

out the window, but your theory makes a lot more sense to me. Plus, I'm not hearing about any guns being registered to the defendants, although I find that really hard to believe. But that said, what about it, Cheryl McCollum? To why the glasses would be on the ground, large pools of blood. Nobody in the vicinity heard a gunshot. It also would, you know, to me, goes back to my theory, they were tortured. This was anger. She didn't look up stun gun. She looked up the pain level. This was very personal. They have been fighting for almost a decade over those children, and they were attacked. I'm going to say it again. This didn't take four people. This was a deliberate gang ambush.

Killer granny suspects, bloody ambush on two unarmed Kansas moms on their way to a children's birthday party. And they apparently used tasers, burner phones, even a bulldozer to affect their plan joining me an all-star panel you were just hearing Cheryl McCollum but now to Lauren Conlon investigative journalist host of the outlier podcast I want to hear what you have to say about the use of a hammer as the murder weapon but also I found something buried in the affidavit. And I found this really interesting. I want everybody on the panel to jump in.

We find out that three prepaid cellular phones were purchased from Walmart in Oklahoma back on Feb 13. That's how long they've been planning this since Feb 13. This is what I found really interesting. All three of the burner phones were powered on and access cellular cellular network for the first time at columns residence. So they can, the LE, law enforcement, can identify the first time these idiots turned on the burner phone is basically inside their own home. Ding dong, they can figure out that they are leaving a digital trail. They're turning on the cellular phones that were used to orchestrate this double murder, they turn it on for the first time in or near their own home.

I mean, they need to go back and watch Ocean's Eleven all over again. Lauren Collin, you were jumping in. What were you saying? Well, I can provide some context to this as well, because while they appear to be extremely dumb criminals, obviously, I think there's an element to this, right? The, the farm element. I don't think that it's out of the ordinary that he would rent farm equipment or dig holes X, Y, Z, but using your own cell phones and turning these cell phones, these burner phones on at your own house, this goes to the fact that Tiffany Adams is actually very connected in that town.

She runs and is responsible for the Cimarron County GOP. She's their chair. She was a former school board chair. She knows the sheriff's office. I mean, I think there was a quote where she had said, you know, I know the path the judge takes to work. She knows everybody. And I believe that she thinks that she is untouchable and people don't necessarily want to talk. The one judge that did speak, he was forced to resign the next day. So it's, it's really interesting. And I think that this woman in particular, Tiffany Adams,

she holds a type of power that we are just going to be learning about. Well, you know what that calls for? A change of venue. That won't be hard. You know, I'm still looking very carefully at this amity of it. And I want everybody to weigh in on this. The whole dug about 200 yards below a dam filled back in and covered with hay. I mean, you could probably see that with a drive over from a helicopter for Pete's sake. Did they not think cops were going to find that? I mean, Irv Brandt, I've seen many, many homicides. I've investigated many, tried many, covered many. But this is a plethora, a Pandora's box of evidence. Nancy, that's exactly right. Like you, I've been doing this all my adult life, and I've never seen a case probably easier to solve, easier to prove.

When we take it to you as the prosecuting attorney, you'd look at us and say, you've got to be kidding me. You know, I can't believe this. Where's did they videotape themselves committing the crime? Did they post it on social media? They did just about everything else imaginable, you know, to say they did it. The confessions have got to be forthcoming, I would imagine, to the police. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A damning second autopsy released in the case of two Kansas moms who are kidnapped and murdered on their way to a children's birthday party.

Aside from the autopsy, what more do we know? I want you to take a listen to this. The motive, according to investigators, is custody of Butler's two children. A custody battle has gone on for more than five years. Father Wrangler Rickman, Tiffany Adams' son, was awarded custody of the children, but Rickman was confirmed to be in a rehabilitation facility in Oklahoma City at the time of the murders. Veronica Butler's custody arrangement allowed her supervised visitation with her children every Saturday. And reportedly, according to Butler's attorney, she was likely to be granted

unsupervised visitation during an upcoming hearing. The affidavit states that Adams vehemently opposed this and went to great lengths to plan and purchase items used in Butler and Kelly's murders. It continues, Adam, Cullum, Cole, and Cora were willing to kidnap and murder two victims to limit visitation for Butler. And isn't it true, guys, we were talking about Adams, we're talking about Tiffany Michelle Adams, age 54, who is the alleged evil mother-in-law, her, who plotted this,

who seems to think that she's the political boss of the county. I got news for her, political boss or no, she's going down because of her own actions. And it's seemingly straight back out to Lauren Conlon or anybody. Cheryl McCollum, you may know the answer to this. It seems as if earlier there were plans to take out a judge. Another relative was concerned about the custody issue and was told that no need for concern, they would not have to worry about the custody battle much longer because, and I'm quoting from the affidavit, Adams, that's the grandma, the mother-in-law, quote, had it under control that she knew the path the judge walked to work and would take out Veronica at the drop-off. Take out Veronica at the drop-off.

What about that? Tell it on herself. She has told on herself, I think, for the last nine years. I think there's probably been threats all over creation. And let me tell you the most striking thing for me. This woman, the ex-mother-in-law cannot stand Veronica. She has made that clear. Veronica's no good for the children. They're not safe with her. She probably doesn't cook and clean. She doesn't take care of them. They're only, you know, okay when they're in her custody. When Veronica did not meet, picked those children up, especially on the daughter's birthday. Remember, it was her birthday.

She would have been the first person. Tiffany would have been the first person calling the court saying, she's in contempt. I told y'all she was no good. I've got these children sitting here crying because their mama didn't show up. Is this baby's birthday? When she didn't do that, she didn't make that call pitching a fit. That told

me right there she's involved. Is nobody worried about discussion of killing a judge pops up in the affidavit? Because I'm looking right at it that we don't have to worry about custody anymore because Adams, that would be the mother-in-law, Tiffany Adams, quote, knew the path the judge walked to work. I mean, Cheryl McCollum, am I the only one seeing that? Were they going to kill a judge too? It is telling you the lengths that she was going to go to, Nancy. Nothing was going to stop her from keeping those children away from Veronica. She was going to have every possible avenue stopped so that she could have these children.

Nancy, she's supposedly so connected to the courts and to the police, but she has refused to go by any of the court's order. They've basically made her bulletproof. For years, she has stopped the mama from seeing them. For years, she has refused to do what the court tells her to do. And when it looked to her that she could no longer control the court or the victim, she killed her. That's how it looks, plain and simple. There is the death penalty in Oklahoma. Kelly Hyman, there have to be special aggravating circumstances in order for a prosecutor to seek a death penalty. And those have to be clearly enunciated far prior to trial in writing. There has to be an announcement theated far prior to trial in writing. There has to be an announcement the state is going to seek the death penalty.

And there is a very limited number of aggravating circumstances that will suffice. However, more than one body is one of those aggravating circumstances. Ultimately, that will be up to the state to make a determination on whether they believe that they can bring it based on the facts and evidence of the case. And but there is a lot of evidence that is coming out. And Nancy, to your point about the alleged about the judge, it is very, very disconcerting because judges are the ones that preside over the case and they're the ones that make determinations. And so the fact that there is allegations of harming a judge, which is very disconcerting and very upsetting, but ultimately no one, no matter who you are, is above the law and people

need to be held accountable. And ultimately that will be up to the jury of whether they're innocent or guilty in this case. To Irv Brandt, joining us, former U.S. Marshal Service and author Irv, to think all of this was over, what, every other weekend? Or Wednesday to Saturday versus Thursday to Saturday visitations? And you know, the so-called evil mother-in-law, evil granny killer suspect, she's the mother of the bio dad. So she would have access to the grandchildren every time he had visitation or, you know, shared custody. So if he got the children half the time, she would have access to the children half of

their lives. And in a divorce, you know, for a lot of people, that's pretty good visitation. And all of this over what? A few days? A month? Nancy, I don't think the time had anything to do with it. I think to this woman, this was obviously about control. And she wanted complete control of who was going to see those children and when they were going to see those children and what the circumstances were going to be. And she wasn't even going to allow a judge to dictate to her how to take care of these children? Because she said it.

She'll take that judge out. She knows his path to the courthouse. So, no, Nancy, it makes no sense other than the fact that the woman wanted complete control over every action concerning those children. To Dr. Kendall Crowns, Dr. Kendall Crowns, your theory that a hammer was used to bludgeon the women dead, most likely about the face and the head, the pain they would have endured preceding their death would have been unbearable. Correct. I mean, she's being tased or shocked with the electronic devices or electric devices and being beaten with a hammer. A hammer isn't really efficient to kill someone because it's hard to break the skull with a hammer. So they would have to continually strike them multiple times, eventually fracturing the head.

Two unarmed, innocent mothers dead. We wait for justice to unfold. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.