Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BODIES FOUND, POOLS OF BLOOD DISCOVERED, AS MOMS MISS BIRTHDAY PARTY

Episode Date: April 15, 2024

Fifteen days after Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelley are reported missing, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation announce the recovery of two bodies. The identity of the remains has not been confirmed as yet, but we do know the remains have been sent to the Oklahoma Medical Examiner's office for identification, as well as the cause and manner of death.  Initially, police said there was evidence of suspicious circumstances in Veronica Butler‘s car. That evidence was a small amount of blood inside the vehicle.  Police have now released new information.  The vehicle was found on a dirt path, 1,000 feet off of Oklahoma State Highway 95 and near the car, police find multiple puddles of blood, leading investigators to conclude the women were shot, before they were abducted.    Reports began to surface that a caravan of law enforcement vehicles including swat teams was traveling in the panhandle of Oklahoma. Local reporters said there were some 20 vehicles including swat and other law enforcement vehicles in Cimarron County which split into two groups. One group went to the home of Tiffany Adams, the ex-mother-in-law of Veronica Butler, while the other group of law enforcement traveled to a different location in Cimarron County.  The Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation has now announced four people have been arrested in connection with the disappearance of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelley.   Tiffany Adams, the ex-mother-in-law of Veronica Butler, and Adams' boyfriend, Tad Cullum, are in custody.   Cole Twombly and Cora Twombly were also arrested, and all four were taken to the Texas County Jail.  Each person faces two counts of suspicion of first-degree murder, two counts of kidnapping, and one count of conspiracy to commit first-degree murder.  Joining Nancy Grace Today: James Shelnutt - 27 years Atlanta Metro Area Major Case Detective, Former S.W.A.T. officer, Attorney (Gadsden, AL), The Shelnutt Law Firm, P.C., Fmr judge and municipal prosecutor ShelnuttLawFirm.com, Twitter: @ShelnuttLawFirm Tim Jansen -  Criminal defense lawyer and fmr. Federal Prosecutor, Legal Analyst for Tallahassee Democrat’s Newspaper Caryn L. Stark - Psychologist, renowned TV and Radio trauma expert and consultant, www.carynstark.com, Instagram: carynpsych, FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice  Dr. William Morrone - Medical Examiner, Toxicologist, Pathologist, opioid treatment expert, Author: “American Narcan:Naloxone & Heroin-Fentanyl associated mortality” Lauren Conlin - Investigative journalist, Host of The Outlier Podcast. Host of Corruption: What Happened to Grant Solomon, https://laurenconlin.com, X- @Conlin_Lauren, Instagram- @LaurenEmilyConlin, YouTube- @LaurenConlin4 See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Two bodies found in the search for two Kansas moms who disappear en route to a children's pickup and birthday party. Four in custody after pools of blood found next to the missing mom's empty car. I'm Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. I'm Nancy Grace, and this is Crime Story. Again, thank you for being with us. In the last hour's breaking news, two bodies have been found in a rural area. We believe at this hour they are the bodies of two missing Kansas moms.

The two moms go missing as they are en route to pick up children for a children's birthday party. What more do we know? Take a listen to this. Fifteen days after Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly are reported missing, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation announces the recovery of two bodies. The identity of the remains has not been confirmed as of yet, but we do know the remains have been sent to the Oklahoma Medical Examiner's Office for identification, as well as the cause and manner of death. Those two bodies waiting to be identified at the Oklahoma morgue.

Joining me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. We are also learning that at this hour, four people in custody. What more do we know? Lauren Conlon joining us, investigative journalist, host of Outlier podcast at LaurenConlon.com. Lauren, thank you for being with us. Tell me about the discovery of the bodies and we will get to the four defendants behind bars in a moment. But first, these bodies. Do you believe they're the two Kansas moms?

Unfortunately, Nancy, I believe they found the bodies of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly. They did say they found the bodies in Texas County. Three of the people arrested are from Simmerin County. I did find that one of the men arrested, I know you'll get to it, he does own some land in Texas County, a place called Texhoma, Oklahoma. So I guess we'll see. But as soon as the news broke on Saturday that they believe the pools of blood were possibly from the women being shot immediately when they found these bodies, I thought it was them. Well, here's the other bombshell. In addition to four people being behind bars right now, a connection with the discovery of the two bodies,

one of those people is one of the women's mother-in-law, a granny. That's right, a mother-in-law behind bars. After her daughter-in-law, we believe, body is found en route to a kid's birthday party. Joining me, a renowned medical examiner, toxicologist, pathologist, opioid treatment expert, and author of American Narcan, Dr. William Maroney. Dr. Maroney, if these two bodies, and again, everybody, we're going to get to the four people behind bars right now, one of them being one of the victims, mother-in-law. I mean, I know a lot of mothers-in-law don't get along with the daughter-in-law, but really? Now the child is going to be raised without a mother at all? Any mother is better than no mother, many people would argue.

But Dr. Maroney, I want to get to the bodies because, Dr. Maroney, this is the key to solving this case. What do you make of what Dave Mack just reported that authorities do not believe the two bodies have been exposed to the elements for the entire two weeks the women were missing? What are they talking about? The first thing they're talking about is temperature and humidity. We call weather if you put a body in moderate weather it begins to bloat and dry out and there's insect activity so the lack of bloating the lack of drying and the lack of blow flies suggest the bodies were indoors they were hidden and maggots maggots take over in four to five days at 60 to 70 to 75 degrees maggots can

take a full body down to near skeleton, something that looks like an Egyptian mummy. If you have a body and you have facial recognition and you have big muscle mass, that body was in a cooler, that body was in a shed, that body was in a trunk, or that body was wrapped in plastic. Dr. Maroney, I see you have a guest with you today. I believe that is Willow. Why? What can you tell us with Willow? What I want to tell you about with Willow

is the emphasis on pools of blood. In a gunshot, you have a penetrating injury that when you have blood, you're going into the body, deep. We're talking six, seven, eight, ten inches. That's how you get enough blood out of a body with a gunshot. If you had to stab a body with something, you'd need 30 30 or 40 of these and you'd have to get people in the groin, here under the arms, or in the neck. Even if you had a larger knife, you still need 20 or 30 deep wounds to create pools of blood. Two gunshots can give you pools of blood. Now, you just pointed to willow and you pointed to three separate locations. I assume that you

are referring to the carotid, the femoral and the arm arteries. Large vessels. That's the only way you can get pools of blood with a knife. With a gun, you can get pools of blood with just two shots. Now, that would be the femoral, which is down on either side of your crotch. It's your leg, major, major artery, as big or bigger than the carotid artery. That's why, you know, you get shot in the leg. You can bleed out just as quickly as you can with the carotid artery. That's why, you know, you get shot in the leg. You can bleed out just as quickly as you can with the carotid artery. The carotid artery, of course, everyone knows is the artery leading, I would say as a lay person from the heart to the brain. Right. Right.

Right. Okay. And then what's the arm one called a brachial artery what is that called yes the brachial artery the brachial complex veins nerves and arteries but your big vessels are going to be femoral and in the neck guys the reason we're going into this is because multiple large pools of blood were found around the missing Kansas mom's empty vehicle. Listen. Initially, police said there was evidence of suspicious circumstances in Veronica Butler's car. That evidence was a small amount of blood inside the vehicle. Police have now released new information. The vehicle was found on a dirt path 1,000 feet off Oklahoma State Highway 95.

And near the car, police find multiple puddles of blood, leading investigators to conclude the women were shot before they were abducted. So to you, Dr. William Maroney, I want to talk about what evidence we can get from, and we fully believe these are the two women's bodies. Okay, you've got two women missing. Two bodies are found not too far away in an area where Lauren Conlon pointed out one of the defendants we think owns property nearby. And then immediately after the two bodies are found, four people are arrested. Hold on with me. Dr. William Moroney, renowned medical examiner.

We're very honored to have him on today. Also joining me right now, Tim Jansen. He's a high profile former federal prosecutor and analyst for the Tallahassee Democrat. And today he has a special insight on mothers inlaw that kill. He has just finished an extensive analysis regarding the Dan Markle murder. And behind bars right now as the, let me say, puppet master of all that is Mrs. Adelson, the mother-in-law. You know, Tim Jansen, I don't believe I've ever seen anything like it where mothers in law are so enraged, uh, very often over the grandchild. Remember in the Markle case, uh, Dan Markle, the Florida professor refused to move. So his wife could take another job or relocate near her mother down.

I believe it was in Miami or South Miami. And next thing you know, he's dead. And mother-in-law is behind bars. Yeah, it's bad. It seems like these parents or grandparents are now going to the second parental stages where the grandchildren are more important than anything in their lives. Looking at this booking photo, it looks like a very troubled, hardened woman. stages where the grandchildren are more important than anything in their lives. Looking at this booking photo, it looks like a very troubled, hardened woman who had a difficult life, who had these grandchildren. Well, hold on. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You're taking one

look at her skin care and you're saying she had a hard life because I am not buying into that one minute. And I don't care how bad her upbringing or her life was, which I know nothing about yet. That does not excuse double murder, Jensen. No, Tim Jensen, I'm very surprised you would even say that. No, no, I'm not. She's had a hard life because she's got wrinkles. Well, then we're all up the creek without a paddle. No, what I'm saying is I've seen lots of photos like this. It's clear that no one should kill anyone. She should turn over the kids. It's clear that the bodies were moved because lack of decompensation and the police are

gonna figure it out. They're gonna leave some DNA residue. They've got the suspects. It's not a coincidence that these people were missing. They were shot in the car, large blood. It's clear people kill people who they know. This is not a serial murder. And I'm not giving any judgment on whether she did it or didn't do it. I'm just saying that's not a very nice booking photo. Guys, in the last hours, LE law enforcement speaks. Listen. We received a call on March 30th of an abandoned vehicle with persons missing from the vehicle.

Deputies immediately responded to the area. When they arrived on scene, they found some things that just weren't adding up, so we established a crime scene and then notified the OSPI to have them come and assist us with this and to actually take lead on the case. We established a search party made up of the Guymon Fire Department and several of the volunteer fire departments in the county. And we searched the area around the crime scene for about a mile in each direction. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Two bodies found in the hunt for Kansas moms who vanished two weeks ago. Police arresting four people for murder and kidnap after, quote, pools of blood were found next to their empty car. Dr. William Maroney, our renowned medical examiner and author of American

Narcan on Amazon. Dr. Maroney, back to the three arteries, femoral, carotid, brachial, large pools of blood, multiple large pools of blood. And it brings to mind Dr. William Maroney, Jennifer Dulos, the Miss, the Connecticut missing mother of five. Cops walked into her garage and like, yes, she's dead because there's so much blood found in her garage. There's no way she could be alive. Now, how does that happen? How much blood does there have to be for you to know the victim is dead? Here's an example from one of our local

barbecues. This is a gallon. Sorry, this is a liter of iced tea. You can survive. You won't be able to breathe and you'll have low blood pressure. But this is the limit. This is the threshold of how much blood you have to lose demonstrated as iced tea from my barbecue shop. Something would absolutely call you would call exsanguination that you're dead would be two full liters. A two liter. OK, can you hold on just a moment, please? Dr. William Maroney, can you please speak imperial, not metric, not milliliters? Okay, so it's my understanding that one U.S. gallon is.264 liters. Okay, so.26, about a third.

Half a gallon. Close to a third of a liter. Okay. of a gallon okay that's a half a gallon and you're saying you will not exsanguinate with a half a gallon how much do you have to bleed to be dead a full gallon you'll pass out uh really close what what do i have on here uh just a little between two and three quarts and you'll pass out and you'll die eventually because you can't get enough oxygen to your brain so that's the limit is less than two quarts you'll lose consciousness but you won't die two to to three quarts, you can't function. Your heart will go into ischemia and you'll have a stroke and your brain won't work. Okay, straight out to James Shelnut joining us.

27 years, Metro Major case and former SWAT, now high-profile lawyer joining us out of Alabama. James, thank you for being with us. When we hear a long line of Texas County sheriffs, SWAT, and the OSBI, what does that tell you from your time with SWAT? Well, it tells me two things. Number one, it tells me that they're not going out to do an interview. They've got a warrant in hand. They're going out to put a pair of handcuffs on somebody that they believe is dangerous. Somebody in this case who has murdered someone and somebody in this case who they feel is a threat even to law enforcement. As a SWAT, a former SWAT member, what do you do in this kind of situation? You're arresting four people.

So what you do here is, number one, you gain some intelligence on where you're going to. You gain some intelligence on the people, including the backgrounds of these people. Do they have any prior offenses? Are they known to possess weapons? Which obviously a weapon was involved in this type of crime. So you get some intelligence both on the people you're going to arrest as well as the locations that they may be. And you come up with a game plan and come up with a plan on what each team is going to do and how each team is going to secure the perimeter of the home and then a plan on the actual entry if indeed you have to make an entry into that home. You know, it's interesting about what you're saying, James Shelnut. Tim Jansen with me, a former federal prosecutor, analyst, Tallahassee Democrat, is the level of violence that a grandma slash mother-in-law will exceed in order to get that grandchild. Because in both Markle,

where the Florida state law professor was murdered with the grandma, the mother-in-law pulling the strings. And now in this case, where the mother-in-law pulling the strings. And now in this case, where the mother-in-law slash grandmother is arrested, all it was that day is mommy was picking up the children at a designated location, the Four Corners Trading Company, to go to a kid's birthday party. That's all that was happening. Why do you have to shoot two ladies dead? One you don't even know. Why do you have to shoot two ladies dead? One you don't even know. Why?

Over a birthday party? Well, you know, in the Markell case, it appears that the grandmother was the one initiating the violence and get her grandkids back. We don't know enough yet in this case how this transpired. But we know a violent crime occurred in the car. The bodies were moved and they were secreted somewhere for some time period. And then the bodies were placed where they were found. So we don't know exactly what the grandmother's role was, but clearly she's involved in this just like Miss Markella, I mean, Miss Adelson was. You know, another issue here. You have two locations.

This is significant. And I want to go to you again, James Shelnut, 27 years Metro Major case and SWAT, now lawyer. Shelnut, we just saw in Sean Puffy Combs, a.k.a. Diddy, simultaneous raids going down on two sides of the country. And it was just very heavily orchestrated and planned ahead of time by the feds. In this case, you've got at least two, if not three, law enforcement, LE units together, and they raid two places, make four arrests in two locations. That is a lot of planning and precision timing. Absolutely. And what they're trying to do is they're trying to maintain the element of surprise. You know, when you go to one house where one group of suspects is at,

and then there's another group of suspects at another house, you know, you have to anticipate that somebody may call the second group and say, hey, we've got police here, which will give them time enough to possibly arm themselves, possibly time enough to escape. And if it's not the group of suspects, you know, people tend to know their neighbors. Often they have each other's numbers and way to get in touch with each other. So, yes, it's critical both for the safety standpoint of law enforcement serving these warrants, as well as to make sure that the suspects you're looking for aren't tipped off and escaped. Lauren Collin joining me, investigative journalist, host of The Outlier.

Lauren, thank you for being with us. Explain to me how the arrests go down. Two simultaneous arrests in two locations, so four in all. So Tad Cullum and Tiffany Adams, they were dating and they were together. He is a known associate of her. I think we all saw this coming from the beginning. And then Cole and Cora Twombly, they are also friends. Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait, wait. Cole Earl Twombly and Cora Twombly, they're more than friends. They've got the same last name. They're married. They're friends with Tiffany and Tad.

Friends of Tad Colum and Tiffany Adams. Got it. Okay. There was a scheduled hearing for custody on April 17th, 2024, where Veronica Butler was petitioning to have overnight visits, unsupervised visits and overall increased visits with her children. And it was very clear Tiffany Adams did not like this. had her son relinquish parental rights and threw her son under the bus and saying, look, Veronica took advantage of the fact that my son was into partying and drugs and didn't seem to care about caring for his children anymore. So she swooped in and all of a sudden wanted these additional visits. Hey, wait, wait, wait, wait. I want to hear more about what you're saying. Lauren Conlon joining me, investigative journalist.

You're saying that grandma, grandma's Tiffany Adams, age 54, also mother-in-law to one of the victims, Veronica Butler. This is the mother-in-law. And when her own son was fighting for custody, she swoops in, backstabs her own son so she, the grandma, can get custody? Yes. And let me let me point this out. This could be nothing, but I thought the timing was very, very odd. So when she is filing a motion, or I think it was it was November 15th, she filed a motion for continuance. The next day, her son is booked and arrested on a firearm charge, having a firearm after committing a felony. And I thought to myself, did she turn her own son in so he wouldn't have to be a part of any of this? That occurred to me. Is she that calculated? Is she that devious? And I think she was.

Dr. William Maroney, we're now medical examiner joining us. I'm not sure I'm buying into the theory the bodies had not been exposed to the elements. We're not going to really know anything until we hear from the medical examiner. If the bodies had been exposed to the elements and I believe it was 54 degree weather, but it fluctuates, what would you expect to find, Dr. Maroney? 54 degrees is the lower limit of almost normal ambient outdoor. You would definitely see blowflies and maggots eating away at masses of protein and muscle. They start in the mouth, they go to the ears, they come out of the eyes, you'd lose the heads right away. And then they kind of go to the groin, they go to the rectum, and then they eat upwards and the rest of the body would bloat. At 54 degrees, maggot activity might go on for a week.

At 65 to 70 degrees, maggots will take the body down to skeletal within two or three days. After that, then it's large insect activity. And if it's cold and there's no maggot activity, you'll still get bloating and decomposition and the body will be dry, hard decomposition, more like a mummy. And when it gets really hot, it's too hot for maggots. So you have to have this window. So we'll see if these bodies come back with maggot activity, then they've been working on them for a long time. You know, another issue is how, they'll have to be identified by either dental records, like cavities in a certain spot, implants, braces, or DNA. Also, if the bodies are decomposed, and this is very critical, Dr. Maroney, how will you figure out COD cause of death? I guess what you're looking for is full body x-rays to look for rounds, shotguns, 45s, nine millimeters. And what we've been leaning with our local

Michigan State Police is that DNA is good, but it takes a long time. And if you've got a good forensic dentist, you can identify a body in a day or two. So dental records, which people always thought was kind of slow and archaic, actually are very fast and are a lot faster than DNA. DNA is precise, but it takes a long time. And these are young people. These are young people in situations where they'll have fillings or they'll have other dental work or, you know, maybe some bridges or some veneers. Very popular things now are the treatments and the cosmetic dentistry is so much more involved now than it was 20 years ago. So you can absolutely identify through dental records. And another thing, if the bodies have been decomposed to such an extent that you're describing,

you recall Gabby Petito, who had been, her remains lying out in dispersed camping out west. So much animal activity had occurred. They identified her originally by the sweatshirt that she was wearing. So sometimes we're at that point until we can get DNA, Dr. Maroney. Yeah. What we've seen in bodies that have been exposed for more than two weeks with animal activity is that sometimes you have to be careful that marks on back and look teenage dental records and and other things they last for a long time and they're so much faster than dna yeah the temperatures went up i believe into the 70s so i don't know what effect that's going to have on the bodies but once animal activity is factored in it is going to really hard. So what more do we know about potential motive? Take a listen to Crime Online's Dave Mack. News reports say 10 days before the

moms went missing, Veronica Butler filed a court petition for full custody of her children. Currently, Butler's former mother-in-law is the children's guardian. Crime Stories has not yet been able to independently verify the petition. KSNTV also requested the document, but we're told the document is now sealed. The order sealing and restricting the case was sealed after the women went missing to, quote, protect the integrity of a criminal investigation and to protect minor children. The information on who asked for the document to be sealed is also sealed. James Shelnut joining us

from the Shelnut Law Firm, along with Tim Jansen joining us out of Florida. James Shelnut, the timing here, the records regarding those custody issues were sealed when the mom and her friend go missing. I find that very probative. It proves to me that that is the motive. They're sealing the custody records, I believe, because that's the motive. Absolutely. Well, it's a basic statistical fact that most people are killed when they're victims of homicide by people that they know. And then you look out of the people that they know that are closest to them and you say, okay, well, who has a motive? It doesn't get to be a much stronger motive than fighting over custody of kids. We've seen it time and time again.

Four people now behind bars in connection with the disappearance of two Kansas moms on their way to pick up children for a kid's birthday party. These are the four to whom I am referring. Tim Jansen joining me, high profile, former federal prosecutor, now analyst with the Tallahassee Democrat. Tim, again, the potential motive of custody, but not from a parent, from a mother-in-law. I find that very unusual that you would resort to murder, double murder to keep custody of your grandchild.

Yeah, it's troubling that a grandparent would assume and commit crimes to keep custody of a grandchild. You know, there's lots of reasons why. They could be financially benefiting if the kids are getting Social Security or if they're getting child support. Or if it's just the grandmother has grown fond of these grandchildren and they'll revert to anything. If they think they're going to lose a court case or if they have lost a court case, it clearly shows a motive. And the timing is not just a coincidence. It's very troubling. And Tim Jansen, you just covered this in the Markle case where Dan Markle was murdered

with the mother-in-law pulling the strings along with the brother of the mom. And what it boiled down to, and these were highly educated, rich, wealthy people down in Florida. Long story short, money and education doesn't matter when it comes to custody. And in that case, the grandma thought she was absolutely a better guardian than the father, the biological father who wanted desperately to be with his children. Well, Donna certainly wanted her daughter and her grandchildren to move to South Florida. On all the evidence proves, or at least it alleges, she pulled the strings and had her son Charlie commit the crimes by hiring lesser to dues to commit the crime. Now her son's been convicted, the murderers have been convicted, and now Donna's waiting for trial in September. Guys, in the last hours, LA law enforcement speaks. Listen. On Friday, the

informations were filed and they were filed under seal. The reason they were filed under seal was to protect our law enforcement officers and to try to keep the children out of harm's way. We were successful. No shots were fired and the children were kept out of harm's way. Our district judge issued an order this morning and those files are now un of harm's way. Our district judges who didn't order this morning and those files are now unsealed. So you can get the information at the courthouse, you can get the affidavits at the courthouse, which will give you the facts that we were working off of. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me now is a renowned psychologist, TV radio trauma expert, Karen Stark. You can find her at KarenStark.com.

That's Karen with a C Karen Stark, grandparents, mothers-in-law, the bad blood between the mother-in-law and the daughter-in-law. I've never seen anything like it. And as you know, I'm super blessed because my mother-in-law was a saint. Can you believe in all the years we never had one crossword ever? Not even once, Karen Stark. Apparently not the case here. You are very lucky, Nancy, because we know so many stories about mother-in-laws and their daughter-in-laws and the conflict that they get into or with son-in-laws. There's a lot of in-law problems. But this case is extreme because you have a mother-in-law

who is obsessed with the children. In some ways she's delusional, Nancy, because it's as though these are her children, as though she gave birth to them. And she will do anything like a mama bear to protect them and make sure that their mother or their father can't get their hands on them. And that is not what you normally find. So you know that there's a problem.

There's something with this woman. the aid in a way of these other people to help her and convince them that she had to have these children. Without a doubt, they had to be under her care. That's as extreme as I've ever heard, as extreme as you can get. True obsession. You know, Karen Stark, you're bringing up a really good point. It's not just the mother-in-law, the grandma to the children. Lauren Conlon, Karen Stark is right. If police are correct, this mother-in-law had to convince three other people to help her commit double murder. Who are these people? Yeah, absolutely. So I want to go back to 2022. Tad Cullum used to employ her son, Wrangler Rickman, on his farm. And Tad spoke on behalf of Wrangler in 2022 when he was trying to get his children back. He said, this man is amazing to his kids. He's a great father and he deserves to have them back. At this point, Tad had never been arrested. I did see that there was an arrest in 2023 for feloniously pointing a firearm.

And going over to Cole Twombly, he also served 11 months at the Department of Corrections in Texas for a deadly conduct charge, which is a misdemeanor. So it's really sad that this woman seems to have this power over these people. I don't know their level of intelligence. I don't really know much about them besides their job. The one thing that I find to be very calculated by Tiffany is that I believe this was planned. She had one court appointed supervisor whose name is Cheryl Bruin that was basically had not missed a visit with these children in months. And then all of a sudden on March 30th, Cheryl Bruin maybe is told not to come or maybe, you know, she calls in sick, I have no idea, and then Jillian Kelly steps in.

So it's completely heartbreaking. This is what I understand. We're wondering how the grandma exercised mind control over the other three. I know that the grandma, Tiffany Adams, was in a love relationship with Tad Burt Cullum. The two were romantically linked. What do we know about that? Yeah, they've been dating for a while. And I do have some local sources that say that Tiffany is scary. And it's very well known in that town well I believe you mentioned i

town of 20,000 people. So this control over many inc tad column. So I have no to course him very easily also said and I chose not because I didn't have a p my local source says she witnessed with her own eyes in 2021, Tiffany Adams actually shoved Veronica Butler against a car at a children's sports game.

Wow. No love lost there. And now the victim, Veronica Butler, age 27, and friend, acquaintance, Jillian Kelly, age 39, the preacher's wife, both dead. You know, I'm thinking about, to James Shelnut, the fact that these four have been booked on suspicion of murder. Once DNA comes back, I'm pretty sure those charges are going to be upgraded to murder. What type of evidence are police looking for to upgrade that bookend charge to murder? Of course, there's going to be an indictment. But until then, what kind of evidence are they trying to glean to upgrade this, kick it up to full-on murder one? Well, there's a small group of evidence that they can rely on. You know, number one, they can rely on forensic evidence. Whose prints were in the car if he never recovered?

Was there any DNA transfer? Whose property were these bodies found on? One of the things that I would be doing as a detective right now is I'd be looking at the person most likely to flip in this scenario and turn on the others. I think that that would be a great route for law enforcement to proceed if they haven't already. Guys, in the last hours, LA law enforcement speaks. Listen. We received several tips throughout this entire process. The public, I mean, I know that we had thanked what that our local law enforcement agencies, what they were able to help us and throughout this search. But the people here throughout this area have done a tremendous job of reaching out to us.

The original press release that we had put out on March 31st in regards to searching for these two women, we constantly received several tips and had used those throughout the entire 14-day process in order to find these two bodies and then also discover and find those who were responsible for this crime. Four people arrested in connection with the disappearance of two Kansas moms. Straight back out to James Shelnut, 27 years, Metro major case, former SWAT, now high profile lawyer at the Shelnut Law Firm. James Shelnut, you said you believe that one of the four defendants is going to be flipped. I say H-E-L-L-N-O. I wouldn't take a deal, even though I firmly believe sometimes you got to go to hell to get your witness to put the devil in jail. Not this time. Oh no. Because from what I'm hearing from

Dr. William Maroney, this crime scene is going to be rife with evidence. There is going to be a lot of planning, text messages, because this was an agreed upon pickup by the bio mom for a kid's birthday party she was going to throw for her child. This was planned a long time ago. You know, there's going to be text messages, phone calls. Those cell phones are going to be traced right back to the area where the women, the two victims were either murdered or where their bodies were disposed. I would not take a deal from any of them. You say flip is the word. I say stew.

What do I mean by that? I would put all four of them in the same pot to stew, shall not. Well, I agree that that's exactly what they deserve. You know, one of the dumb things that criminals do sometimes is talk. And, you know, when the police get them in there, the detectives start talking with them. You know, it's not always that they have to promise some type of deal to get a statement. You know, people talk to the police all the time. People give confessions all the time. Sometimes they want to downplay what their role is. And so there doesn't

always have to be a deal on the table for a suspect to talk in a homicide investigation. Joining me, renowned psychologist Karen Stark, joining us from Manhattan. Karen Stark, he's right. Loose lips sink ships. Thank heaven for prosecutors. Another thing that I love is when defendants talk on the jail phone because all of that's being recorded. Just recently, Karen, you and I were talking about the Crumley case. Ethan Crumley, a notorious school shooter in a historic jury decision. Both of his parents were held liable, convicted on homicide for enabling their son to be a mass shooter. And of course, you hear the father behind bars on a phone call going, F the prosecutor. I'm going to F her up and making plans to get back and seek revenge, possibly kill the lady prosecutor, the elected district attorney.

Keep talking, man. And then of course we saw on video in color, toptenham Casey Anthony completely cursing out her parents when they, yeah, when they dared to say, hey, where's Kelly? And she tore them a new one. And in that jurisdiction, which was Florida, you have not only the audio, you could see Tottenham Casey Anthony acting much differently than the facade she presented in court, Karen Stark. So talk. Yeah, they're talking. And I think these people, without a doubt, you're right, Nancy, they will talk because they have a previous history with the law. And even though they've been influenced by this woman brainwashed to some extent,

they are not wise enough. They love to be in trouble in a way. That's their lifestyle. They will talk. I have no doubt about it. They will reveal what happened, even though it gets them in trouble, because they can't shut up. They really can't. So either they'll do it on the phone or with the law.

They're going to talk to somebody. I'm convinced. We wait as justice unfolds. Let's stop to remember American hero, police officer Jorge Ignacio Pastore, just 38, shot in the line of duty, Austin. Pastore leaves behind his wife, Kim, stepchildren, Connor, Trevor, and Taylor.

American hero, Officer Jorge Ignacio Pastore. Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.