Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Body Bags: A Drive With Daddy

Episode Date: January 30, 2022

A meal with Daddy at Chick-fil-A... that's what 22-month-old Cooper Harris enjoys the June morning that he dies. Father Justin Ross Harris, 41, takes his son to breakfast, and then instead of turning toward the daycare to drop off his son, Harris drives to work, parks his SUV in the lot and heads inside. The little boy is still strapped in his car seat. The temperatures that day are over 90 degrees outside, and 125 degrees in the car, according to experts. Cooper Harris suffers heatstroke and dies. Justin Ross Harris returns from lunch, stops to put a purchase inside the car, but doesn't see his son inside. The discovery of the body happens that evening as Harris is driving home. He pulls over into a parking lot, unlocking the lifeless body of his only child from it's restraints. Harris is charged and convicted of eight counts including malice murder. A judge sentences him to life without parole as well as 32 more years in prison. Now the killer dad is asking for a new trial. Today on Body Bags, former death scene investigator and forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan walks us through the terrible details of this case. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. When it comes to vehicles, we think about them as a means to transport us to work, to go about our daily life, to convey us from one spot to another during good times and bad times. Do you ever really think about a vehicle being used as a weapon? I'm not just talking about a vehicle being used to run somebody over. I'm talking about a vehicle being used to heat somebody up to the point where they actually die. Today, we're going to talk about the death of Cooper Harris. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Bags. Back with me again today is my good friend Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Jackie, what can you tell us about Cooper Harris? So on June 18th, 2014, first impressions are that Justin Ross Harris is a loving parent who made a terrible mistake. His son, Cooper, just 22 months old, was to be dropped off at a daycare. His dad took him to breakfast at Chick-fil-A before intending to drop Cooper off at the daycare, which was right down the road from where Justin Ross Harris worked. But in that distance of a mile between the Chick-fil-A and where he should have turned to go to the daycare, Justin Ross Harris says he forgot that he had his son. He parked his vehicle and went into work for the day. During the ensuing hours of June 18th, Cooper, 22-month-old Cooper, died of heat stroke. Now, Harris told police that he realized his mistake when he was driving away from work after getting back in the car at the end of a long, hot day to go home. That is when he noticed his son was dead in the car at the end of a long, hot day to go home. That is when he noticed his son was dead in the car.

He immediately pulled over into a parking lot called 911. What was found during the investigation is that Justin Ross Harris was a serial womanizer. He was in the midst of several extramarital affairs. Harris had been involved with multiple women and had been sending explicit sexual messages, sexting, some with nude photos with at least six different females. In fact, some of them were underage girls. It was also found that he was viewing an internet page called Child Free and reading articles on how to survive in prison, looking up how hot a car needed to be to kill a child, looking up what it would be like to live an

unencumbered life. Joe, so what we find out when the autopsy is completed is that Cooper Harris died of heat stroke after being left in this car where temperatures topped easily 100 degrees. So let's start there, Joe. What is heat stroke? Heat stroke itself in the medical community is referred to as hyperthermia, hyper meaning high temperature. And then, of course, we can have hypothermia, you know, if people are exposed to cold weather for a protracted period of time. But in this particular case, we're talking about this young boy, this toddler, this baby, essentially, that was strapped into this car seat and left in this hot car for a protracted period of time. And I think one estimate at one point in time was up to seven

and a half hours, perhaps, that he was there. And what happens with hyperthermia, it's a diagnosis. It's not, you know, when we think about things that we do in forensic pathology and in medical legal death investigation, we think about trauma, don't we? We think about things like bludgeoning and strangulation and gunshots and knife wounds and all those sorts of things. And relatively speaking, those are kind of easy diagnoses to make. But with hyperthermia, this is a diagnosis of what's referred to a diagnosis by exclusion. So you have to have a lot of circumstantial evidence that's coming in to the ME, the forensic pathologist to make this determination. As a matter of fact, when the ME made the diagnosis of hyperthermia, he didn there's five manners of death, you know, the homicide and suicide and undetermined and natural and accidental. In this case, initially, the manner of death was left undetermined.

And what that says is that the doctor knew based upon just the information that was coming in, that this was going to be a heat related death. He just didn't know how to qualify. And it took more information coming in from the police, that circumstantial information, to kind of put all of the pieces together. At the end of the day, the ME listed this as a homicide. Now, that's what left all of us, I think, kind of scratching our heads

and saying, well, if this is a homicide, if this is a homicide, then you have this child that is locked down inside of this vehicle, Jackie. That means that you have intent, that his dad had specific intent to literally use the interior of this vehicle, the heated interior of this vehicle, as a means to bring about his son's death. And that requires thought, doesn't it? It requires thought that you would have to think something like this out. It does. And we know that temperatures that day reached 92 degrees. And experts are saying that inside the car, the temperature was close to 125 degrees. So let's talk specifically about what heat stroke is going to do to a body. I want everybody in the sound of my voice to just

imagine this for a second. Think about the summertime and you go out to your car. Maybe it's in a parking lot after you've been shopping. Maybe it's outside your home. Car's locked up. You go to get out there in the middle of the day. You unlock the car and you get in. You ever grab the steering wheel? And the steering wheel will almost sizzle the palms of your hands. That's how hot it is.

Until you can equalize the temperature by moving down the road with your windows down, perhaps turning on the air, let the air kind of catch up and dispel that heat that's in that environment. Cooper didn't have that opportunity. He was inside of this environment. In one estimate that I heard, they top-ended the temperature at about 130 degrees inside of this vehicle. And let's just talk about some of the contributing factors here. First off, yeah, he's inside of a vehicle, but the vehicle is parked on an asphalt surface. And what do we know about heat? Well, heat rises. Did you know that the interior of that vehicle is actually going to be impacted by rising heat? That vehicle, even though it is insulated, is going to take on that heat and it's going to be transferred to the interior. Not to mention, the vehicle is completely surrounded

in glass. What does glass do? Well, it's like a partly sunny day and that glass is acting to magnify the heat within the vehicle. So, the heat is gradually creeping up. We know that the vehicle is parked roughly nine-ish, nine-thirty-ish, I think, in the morning. And then it sat there. It sat there as the sun began to rise. It got hotter and hotter inside of that car. And all the while, little Cooper is back there. Now, he's positioned in this car seat so that he's facing rearward. He's not facing forward. And it's not a big car. It's actually a kind of a compact SUV. And in this position, he would have been looking rearward and he would have had nobody there to soothe him. Can you imagine his anxiety level increasing? Probably his pulse rate's increasing. I don't know about his blood pressure, but certainly his pulse rate, anxiety is kicking in. And we all know what it's like to be strapped into a seat of a vehicle as an adult. But can you imagine with almost like a four-point restraint in this car seat, this young child is pinned down in this thing. And no matter how much he struggles,

anxiety is increasing. He doesn't have his mommy and daddy to soothe him. And he begins to sweat. He begins to sweat and he's starting to feel the effects of the interior environment heating up. Mouth is becoming dry. The body is trying to cool itself down. But here's the problem. When we get hot, we can replenish, can't we? We can take on a glass of cool water, maybe something to replace electrolytes. Cooper didn't have that opportunity. He's sitting there and he is sweating. Clothing's becoming super saturated, but even that saturation of his clothing is beginning to evaporate in this heat. And with every second that ticks off the clock, with every second that ticks off the clock for Cooper, he's losing hope as time is going by. Mouth is getting drier.

And then soon, at one point in time, he'll start to have kind of some intestinal discomfort. Many times with people that are suffering from hyperthermia, they begin to have stomach cramps and not just stomach cramps, but also when they begin to heat up, your muscles begin to cramp up as well. We see this with athletes out on fields and folks will say, well, he's got a cramp in his leg. Well, they have somebody to run out and attend to them, not Cooper. Can you imagine being pinned in the seat, superheated in that environment, and suddenly the major muscles in your legs, maybe they begin to cramp up. You've got knots in your stomach where you feel as though that your stomach is really upset.

Sometimes you'll have severe nausea, vomiting. There's also opportunity to develop acute diarrhea in these cases as well. It is a total and complete sensation of discomfort all the while. It's very torturous as time goes by. And then finally, what is going to be happening as a result of this imbalance of, say, the electrolytes in the body, the dehydration, you will have individuals that will begin to seize. They will have seizures many times. And finally, what's going to happen is that you'll have a fatal cardiac event because the systems are so out of balance at this point in time, the child's heart just stops beating. And that's what happened to Cooper. Interestingly enough, we believe, we believe based upon what I saw and what I heard in

testimony that Cooper was probably alive. He was probably alive for maybe four, four and a half hours. I want to talk a little bit more in depth, Joe, about some of the things that you just brought up. Whenever it is suspected that someone is experiencing heat stroke, the recommendations are to get the person into the shade or indoors, to remove excess clothing, and to cool the person down by whatever means necessary quickly, and to get emergency services. Some of the symptoms of heat stroke, and you named some of them, is the high core body temperature, the nausea and vomiting. You have a flushed skin as your skin turns red because of the body temperature, rapid breathing, a racing heartbeat, a headache, and it causes

confusion, agitation, slurred speech, irritability, and the seizures that you talked about. It can even put a person into a coma. And all of these things combined together damages the heart, the kidneys, the muscles, the brain. So you said at that point, the heart just stops. But what is it exactly that we're seeing here? Well, Jackie, it's going to be a depletion of several things. And it's some of the things that for our cardiac processes to operate effectively.

Remember, I talked about the absence of electrolytes. And when you're bleeding electrolytes out, you know, you're losing things like sodium, potassium and magnesium. And these keep our systems in balance. And as these are exiting the body and you're not replenishing them, that's why you see these events like the nausea that we talked about, certainly the disorientation, the dizziness, and eventually it leads to a severe cardiac problem. And if you're not, if you haven't gotten assistance quick enough, it can lead to brain damage. And of course, you're in an unrecoverable flat spin there physiologically. There's no way to kind of recover from it. And what makes this particularly insidious, Jackie, is the fact that this is something that was researched. The fact that

his father would have an awareness of this, at least that's what the jury believed, that this was something that was intended to have happened and that he was found guilty of. And with all of that knowledge, all of that data relative to that, he subjected this child to that. And again, this is what kind of sends a shiver up your spine as to how cold and callous this event. You know, I remember during the course of this trial, really captured me that came about from an evidentiary

standpoint. And that's when Cooper was actually removed from the car seat by his father. And he was laying there on the ground. Actually, he was laying in a parking lot. His dad had pulled over into the back of a shopping center and had removed Cooper from the car, was screaming. A couple of witnesses stated that Harris had attempted to do a couple of compressions on Cooper and walked away. Another gentleman took over. But you know, Jackie, when the crime scene people got there and they were observing Cooper's body, this image will always stick with me. He was laying on his back and his legs were bent at the knees and contracted upward. Do you know why? Because he had sat in the seats

along that Riker Mortis had sat in. That he had been there for at least four hours post-mortem, probably, because Riker appeared to be fixed in his legs. And that gives you, that image is so ghastly that it really stuck with me over all these years since this case happened. And and the fact that this event was so horrific to the point where you have a father that's searching the Internet looking for the impact of what the causative agent that could bring about death in this environment. And it would seem on one level, if in fact he had planned this out, like the court says he did, that to him, it seemed as though it was going to be a perfect crime, Jackie, that you're not going to leave behind much evidence other than the fact of, oh, I forgot. And that's what essentially that it comes down to. You know, it's very difficult to get past the knowledge of what this child went through. But, you know, the people that were at the scene, the people that worked this case, they had to drive on through, including the medical examiner personnel that handled this case at the end of the day.

And, of course, they took Cooper's remains back and did an autopsy on him. And they wanted to find answers. And many times, there's just not a lot you can see with a death related to hyperthermia. Well, speaking of that, Joe, what's actually going to show up in an autopsy? Well, you know, with autopsies, Jackie, the thing that we will do, and I'm going to talk in general kind of about autopsies real quick. At autopsies, what we're going to do is it's not just about opening a body and examining the internal organs and drawing toxicology. We look at the totality of everything.

You know, we look at the external condition of the body, including the clothing. And when Cooper's body came into the medical examiner's offices and they were preparing to do their examination, they noted that Cooper was clothed. He was clean, with the exception that he was still wearing a diaper, and the diaper was saturated with urine, which again, you know, going to the hyperthermia, you know, your body is still going to be voiding during this period of time. You still have a need to void. And he would have urinated on himself and had to sit there in those last few hours of his life. And his body was weighed, examined thoroughly, and there was no external trauma. It looked like he had been well cared for.

As a matter of fact, when the investigators with the medical examiner's office began to kind of dig into the medical history of Cooper, essentially there was none. He was basically allergic to one drug, which I think may have been an antibiotic, but nothing else. He had no previous medical history. So you had no reason for this child just to have spontaneously died. And that's one of the questions that we ask in the medical legal community. here, particularly when you have a case that, as I had mentioned, that hyperthermia is kind of a diagnosis of exclusion. You know, when you've gone through everything else, you have to consider everything else before you can arrive at that moment in time to make that final diagnosis, which, of course, is bolstered by circumstantial evidence for us. He had no medical history.

He had nothing to indicate that he had some kind of unknown blood disorder or heart disease or some type of neurological impairment or anything like that, congenital problems that had been passed along. There was no evidence of that. was doing the autopsy, really the only significant finding that they found with Cooper's body is that he had swelling or edema, as they put it, in the lungs. And he had edema, also swelling, in his brain. And that was really the biggest manifestation they could see. And that's kind of something that's peripherally associated with hyperthermia because the body is struggling so much to process oxygen, to try to keep your heart pumping. The brain is starved essentially of all of its necessary nutrients to go on and the brain begins to swell and eventually it shuts down. And so that's from what we refer to as a gross examination, which means with the unaided eye. That's all they found at that point in time. And then they did a microscopic examination, which is called histological examination.

And then that's all they found as well. His toxicology screen was clear as well. Jackie, there was no evidence that there was any kind of drugs on board or anything like that. What was evidence, though, was the fact that, you know, when we go back and we think, you know, his dad had stopped off that one last meal at Chick-fil-A there in an area called Vinings, Georgia, to get him a biscuit. And there's actual image of the two of them inside of the restaurant on CCTV. And there was evidence of food in his stomach.

Joe, you were talking about the edema. Is the edema a cause of Cooper's death or is it an effect of Cooper's death? Do you understand my question? Oh, yeah, perfectly. And that's an excellent question, Jackie, you've been studying. It's not, it is a result of hyperthermia. It's something that can at least, like I said, be peripherally evidenced. As a result, you have to ask the question, why would this have occurred? Because normally, a child of this age is not going to walk around with an edematous brain and edematous lungs. That's just not in the card. So the causative factor bringing this about is the evidence of hyperthermia. And it also goes to a bigger picture.

It gives you an indication of this kind of final struggle that Cooper's little body was in, you know, as he's headed toward death, toward this fatal event, if you will, as he's strapped into this car seat. And one more thing that was noted at the autopsy by the medical examiner is that on Cooper's back, essentially the left upper back and just over the left buttock, he had what's referred to as a parched abrasion, which gives you an idea that this is a dried abrasion. It may be consistent, say, for instance, with something that had recently happened, or maybe given the fact that he's suffering from this state of dehydration, it may have happened during the struggle as he's trying to break free of being restrained in this car seat. He wouldn't have known any better as a child. He's thinking he's just struggling to get loose. There's also another area of a parched abrasion that's found over his left tricep area. Folks at home will just put your hand over your left tricep. It's the back area

of your arm. So again, these back points of contact, if you will, where he's kind of struggling with his lower back over his buttock and that left tricep area, he's struggling. He may have abraded that area in the struggle as he's in the final throes of death. So let's talk about what evidence would have been found in the car itself. In the car seat, you said that he had voided, but he would have also defecated too, correct? When the body dies, everything kind of lets go. Well, that's not necessarily always the case. You know, there's a bit of, I don't know, it's kind of an urban legend that goes about

that says that people actually do defecate themselves at the time of death. And yes, it does, in fact, happen. But it's not necessarily always the case. The medical examiner had reported that they saw evidence of urine in his diaper, but it's not like he had some kind of explosive bowel movement or something like that at that moment in time. Now, quite interestingly, one of the officers that had arrived at the scene made this kind of comment that really struck people at the time. He said that he smelled the smell of death within the car at that point in time. And I never really understood what was meant by that because Cooper really didn't have time to, to decompose at that point, you know,

to the point where you would actually, it would be manifest to the point in a classic sense of decomposition. I think that it was more maybe, and I hate to put words into this person's mouth, but maybe just the sense of what had gone on in that vehicle. Maybe there was the heavy smell of urine that was hanging in the air, the sweat that had issued forth from his body during these moments of struggle and this sort of thing. But we would know, we would look for things like vomitus. We would look for things like feces, all of those sorts of things.

But, you know, at the end of the day, Cooper's body was actually very well cared for. It was clean. It didn't, you know, he didn't look like he was unkempt, if you will. And as far as what was voided from his body, according to the medical examiner, it was simply urine. So what would we have seen on the rest of his body? I would have to imagine that he struggled to get out of the car seat that he was strapped into. So would we have seen scratches? Yeah, you can. And particularly when individuals are, in fact, restrained to the point where they're fighting. Remember, he would have been in a panic.

Remember, I used the term kind of anxiety-ridden at that moment in time where you're fighting against this restraint that is holding you back. One interesting note here, though, is that when they reflected or began to examine Cooper's neck on the left lateral neck, if folks at home will put their hand on the left side of their neck, there were some evidences of petechial hemorrhage. And there were some evidences of petechial hemorrhages there that gives you an indication that maybe, in fact, he had struggled to the point where some of the blood vessels may have given away. Many times we see that with people that are being choked out, if you will, and this can happen. You can develop petechiae in any number of instances. Actually, women that are in labor present with petechiae many times because of the strain, and that gives you an indication of this

kind of rigidity that goes on. You'll have people that have gastrointestinal problems where they have trouble going to the bathroom. They'll develop petechiae many times. So they're not always associated with a specific trauma where people are putting hands on somebody or are doing a ligature strangulation. When they did do this kind of examination on him at the autopsy, they did note that there was a slight light green discoloration on Cooper's abdomen. Now, you can't say definitively, but many times with a green discoloration, that is the very, very early signs of decomposition. It begins with the bowels many times where you'll see this presentation, but it would not have been to the point where it would have been producing the odor that we can generally associate with decomposition. Many folks are asking, you know, at the conclusion of Ross Harris's trial, how did this happen?

Exactly what took place? How are you absent an awareness that you have this precious little life that's in your charge and not just in your charge for that one moment in time? But father and son are involved in a daily routine. It's baffling, isn't it, Jackie? It has baffled everyone that has been following this case, Joe. First off, in the one mile distance from breakfast to the parking lot where Justin Ross Harris worked, he says he forgot that he was supposed to take this child to daycare.

I don't know of a child yet that out of the excitement of getting food is not babbling and talking for the less than 10 minutes that it would take to go that distance? How would he have not, number one, seen the child in his rearview mirror, seen the car seat to remind him? And what's the likelihood that that child fell asleep in that amount of time? That bit of knowledge kind of hits you in the chest like a 10-pound sledgehammer when you begin to think about it. Remember earlier, I'd mentioned that when they were at Chick-fil-A and they were at Chick-fil-A, they were not in the drive-thru at Chick-fil-A. They were in line at Chick-fil-A, and they were at Chick-fil-A, they were not in the drive-thru at Chick-fil-A. They were in line at Chick-fil-A. Matter of fact, this particular restaurant is a restaurant that they had gone to in the past.

People had seen them there in the past. And the CCTV images that are there are, you know, they seem kind of benign when you look at them, but given in total context, it's shocking because he's standing there with his precious little life in his arms, in line. He's caught on camera there. And this is in, I don't know how else to say it, in the twinkling of an eye. It's a very short period of time that this is occurring in, where they go into the restaurant, father and son, they stand in line, they get their food, they ingest their food, and then they're into the car. And right you are, Jackie, talking about the child falling asleep. It's not like it's at nap time at two o'clock in the afternoon. Kids had enough at that point, they're going to drift off. They've got a full tummy after lunch. That's not the case. We're talking about this child is awakened from a full night's sleep,

supposedly, gotten dressed, gotten ready, stimulated. He knows he's going to school or daycare. That's what they do. How could he have gone to sleep at that point in time? How could that have happened? You know, where he's not making any noise in the backseat that dad doesn't have any awareness that he is back there? Remember, this is not like some gigantic SUV. This is a Hyundai Tucson, 2011, I think. There's not a lot of room in this thing. I've been in one.

It's bucket seats in the front and then right over your right shoulder. If you're the driver, that car seat, when you look at the images from the scene, it looks like, you know, Harris is a big guy. It looks like it would have been almost touching the outer aspect of his right shoulder. aware that first off that seat is there and that your son that you just placed back in it is there as well. And that your memory collapses just in that very short period of time where you don't go to the daycare, but instead you drive. I think, I think when I clocked it, it was, there's a couple of different routes you can go. It's like seven tenths of a mile in one direction. And you take another direction. It might be a mile to, to the headquarters where he worked.

How's that? How's that even possible? And I think that that's the big head scratcher here. You park your car off on one end of the parking lot. You leave it there all day long. You go in, you know, you,

you close the doors up. You leave your kid all day long. You go in. You close the doors up. You leave your kid in the car. You walk across the parking lot. Maybe you wave at people you see. And all the while, remember, he's been found guilty. All the while, in your mind, your baby's back there in the car, and you're walking toward the office. How do you forget that? How's that, that, that, that happens. And, and, you know, while Cooper is struggling,

remember we're talking, you know, we, there's a time element here. Maybe he had been down for, I don't know, three hours, maybe three and a half hours. By the time his dad comes back out, he's gone to lunch. He stopped by somewhere, bought a pack of light bulbs and physically walked over to the car and placed the light bulbs in his car. He rode with somebody else, I believe. How is it that at that point in time, at that point in time, you didn't see Cooper. There's maybe a high probability that at that point in time,

Cooper may have been seizing at that moment. Because, you know, at the end of the day, he was there for, you know, I don't know, one estimate was like seven and a half hours. So if you split the day in half,

if it took him four hours to die in that heat, maybe his stomach is cramping up. Maybe his legs are cramping up. Maybe he's trying to double over in pain with his abdomen because he's in such severe pain. He's disoriented. He's sweating profusely. He's nauseated. All the while, he's crying out for his mom and daddy in the best way that he can in his own little voice at that moment. Nobody is answering. So one of the other questions that people really wanted an answer to, Joe, was the fact that Harris bought light bulbs while he was at lunch and put those light bulbs in the car. How would you, as you mentioned earlier, this little boy had lost

control and you have that urine smell, even if it's not a lot, in just a regular 90 degree temperature, in a very short period of time, the smell of urine gets extremely strong. How are you not buffeted by that as you open the door to get back in? Yeah. I mean, you know, lots of times, you know, some people have equated the smell of urine in a very mild sense, at least to the smell of ammonia in a mild sense. Not like you're cracking open a bottle of ammonia that you buy at the grocery store or smelling salts, but it does have that pungent odor to it. And the longer it kind of festers in the heat like that, the more pungent it becomes.

How do you not have that awareness? And where did you place these light bulbs? You know, again, he's a big guy. He occupies a lot of space. Did you just reach in and drop them on the seat and you didn't pay attention to anything else? Because you had to work the lock in order to get into the vehicle. You had to manipulate the door handle in order to gain access after you've unlocked the vehicle. You have to bend over at the waist and drop the

light bulbs in. Then you have to stand back up. You have to lock the door. You have to close the door. Then you have to turn on your heel and you have to walk back to the office. How is it at that moment in time you were not aware that your child was in a car? How does that happen? I don't know that I have the calculus to figure that. You know, other than the fact that he was found guilty of this, the people in the jury obviously felt as though that he had kind of thought this thing through, that this was the plan all along. Well, Joe, we may find out for sure because Justin Ross Harris's attorneys say he deserves a new trial in this case, that the sexual messages that he was sending does not make him a killer. So all of these things that we've been talking about today,

if he gets a new trial, would be rehashed all over again. What do you think we're going to see, Joe? I think that, okay, I'll put it to you this way. Out of all the cases I've covered and all the cases I've worked in my career, I've never come across a case where somebody utilized a motor vehicle in order to facilitate a homicide. And that's what this is. This is pure murder. He was found guilty of malice murder. I've never seen this. And the one thought about this is that it seems so nutty. It seems so unhinged, the fact that someone would have used the utility of a heated vehicle in order to take a small child's life. There might be a chance he's going to get a new trial because this is not like he struck this child or he shot this child or even poisoned this child. This is something so far off the beam, if you will, relative to the thought of committing a homicide, that there might be enough.

There might be enough here for for the courts to decide that maybe this needs to be taken a look at one more time. He might get another trial. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Bags. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.