Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Body Bags: Chaos at Astroworld

Episode Date: December 25, 2021

A chaotic opening night at the Astroworld Festival results in 10 people dead and hundreds more injured, as the crowd of 50,000 people surges toward the stage during Travis Scott's concert. Victims range in age from 9-years-old to 27-years-old. According to the medical examiner's report all 10 of the victims died from compression asphyxia. Today on Body Bags, former death scene investigator Joseph Scott Morgan explains the physical aspects of this type of death. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Body Bags with friends and family. You've waited all this time. You've gone online. You've bought tickets. You've got passes. And the one thing that you want to hear are the songs of your favorite performer. It all turned to tragedy at Astroworld at the concert put on by Travis Scott.

Today, we're going to talk about the deaths of 10 people. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Bags. Back with me today is my good friend Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie, what can you tell us about this tragedy? Ten people died in a stampede at the Astroworld Festival in Houston during rapper Travis Scott's concert. And now we do have a ruling by the Harris County Medical Examiner on those deaths. Those victims were aged 9 to 27 years old, and they died of compression asphyxia, according to the examiner's report. Another 300 people were injured. Now, the audience was over 50,000 people, and from what we know, a large majority of those patrons started to storm

the stage, which led to these deaths. I have so many questions. But let's start with the fact, Joe, that this is not the first time that something like this has happened. Right. You are, Jackie. It's not the first time. And in human nature, it seems like we never learn from tragedies, do we? It's almost like history repeats itself. And, you know, when I first heard about these deaths and, well, the injuries, you know, because at first we didn't know how many people had died. We didn't know if anybody had died, but we knew that folks had been injured. It was total anarchy out there.

And immediately I began to reflect back to my youth and, you know, what happened up in Cincinnati at the infamous Who concert where, you know, you had many people up there that were injured there. And as well, you had folks that were crushed to death. I think there were 11 deaths at that concert. There were. And I still remember reflecting back over the years how impactful that moment was. And there were a lot of questions that were asked. Why wasn't somebody kind of guarding the gate, if you will? And that's not necessarily, I don't mean that in the sense of a guard. I mean, people managing the flow of people coming in and out. Because the one thing that we know about human nature, Jackie, is that when people get super excited, adrenaline kicks

in and people begin to press forward. And if you've ever been to a parade or something like that, or maybe you've been at a concert, for those of you that are listening, and you're super excited about going to this thing. And then all of a sudden, you feel yourself being kind of caught up, and you don't have any control over what's going over in the UK many years ago at a football match, a soccer match, where you had 97, just imagine this, Jack, you had 97 people that were asphyxiated. They were crushed to death as a result of people pushing forward. And they were in what we'll refer to as pens. And they kind of had the area kind of cordoned off where people couldn't break free. There was no point of escape. And so you have this massive humanity, like a crushing wave of people that are impacting these individuals that are in this arrested area where they can go no further.

How horrible would that be? Just the thought of that not to be able to break free. You don't have anywhere to go. It causes some people to, in this case, to jump over railings and people were injured that way. And then if you're at the bottom of the pile, you have no way. It's an it's an unsurvivable event. And what Hillsborough has in connection with, say, for instance, what happened at Astroworld is that these were general admission tickets. So it's kind of like, you begin to think, first come, first serve, you want to press in, there's no assigned seating,

that sort of thing. So just from Jump Street, you've got chaos. And you remember what I said about excitement when I covered this case not too many years ago as well, but there was this tragedy that had actually occurred up in Rhode Island, and it was the Station Nightclub fire. And in that case, that was here in the U.S. We had 100 dead. And you think, well, Morgan, you're talking about a fire. Yeah, I'm talking about a fire. But what happens when people scream fire? Remember the old adage about that it's illegal to scream fire in a movie theater? And one of the rationales behind this is that you get this kind of herd mentality where people are panicking and they're running and you're trampling people.

That's why they tell you to be ordered. You know, when we're kids, we go through fire drills at school. You're ordered in getting out. If not, the weakest in the crowd are going to be left behind and crushed. So, and, you know, in the case in Rhode Island, yeah, there were people that died as a result of, say, for instance, smoke inhalation. But many of these people died as a result of being crushed and being trapped and not having a point of escape in this particular case. And, of course, it leads to tragedy, Jackie. Let's talk specifics, Joe, about what literally happened.

You have a throng of people, 50,000 that we know of. Now, I'm not saying all 50,000 took part in this, but we have a lot of people that are wanting to watch and be close to the stage. So what exactly happened? The crowd started pushing forward. And, you know, I'm from the south. As we say, that's like putting 50 pounds of mud in a five-pound sack. Yeah, and it is all about volume, isn't it? And that's what that old expression goes to,

Jackie. There's only so much that a particular area can contain without there becoming stressors that are exhibited. And in this case, you mentioned the stage. and the stage is kind of a blocking area, if you will. And there's only one area to kind of escape to. And that gets, that becomes progressively more and more narrow as people panic because they're all shooting for that area. And in this case, people started pushing forward toward the stage. And generally, if folks have ever been to a general admission concert, there's a barricade that kind of separates the stage. And you'll have like security people that are in between the stage and the barricade. And then the barricade separates the people from the stage. And folks began to press forward. that people had is that why was there not more of an awareness on the part of Travis Scott and

those individuals that are performing and that are providing the entertainment? And folks are, you know, they're in a mad rush. And I would assume that maybe if you're up on the stage and you're in a fevered moment and people are getting excited, it's probably kind of hard to interpret it as being anything other than enthusiasm, maybe. And of course, in this particular case, because you've got this crushing event, and that's what this winds up being, a pressure event, then it's hard to delineate that, particularly from a great distance, you know, where you're elevated above the crowd, you're engaging, you're entertaining and this sort of thing. So there were a lot of

things that kind of fell apart. You know, security fell apart. I think folks that were panicking, they were not aware of the individuals that are around them. All they could think of was, I need to get to safety. And that's kind of a primal response, isn't it? And so at the end, though, you have all of these individuals that are heavily compressed and in a confined area. And this comes down to the density of the crowd. And when people that study these sorts of things relative to movement of humanity, there's actually, folks don't believe this, but there are actually areas in academia where people study population and population at venues like this.

They make their entire career off of this. And unfortunately, I think that a lot of the people that study these things in academia, that data doesn't necessarily make it down to the individuals that have their, let's say, their hand on the control levers here. And that's what wound up happening. It was poorly managed. There wasn't an awareness for those that might be weaker in the crowd. And there certainly wasn't awareness of how much danger existed in this environment. Jackie, I don't know about you, but by nature, I'm a claustrophobic person. I wouldn't have done too good, you know, in the military on a submarine.

And I think about these people in this environment and how panicked they must have been. You know, you begin to feel pressure on you. Maybe there's even this fear that you can't breathe, that you can't escape. Can you imagine how horrible that is? I can't imagine how horrible that is. And honestly, I don't want to, because what we know that happened is as the crowd of 50,000 people started to surge toward the stage at some point, these individuals were caught. They were trapped and hemmed in by the barricades set up to protect the performers on the stage. There were barricades set up to protect the performers on the stage. There were barricades on three sides. So these victims were caught and unable,

as you were mentioning earlier, to escape. They could not get out. We know that some of the victims fell on the ground and were trampled as the crowd surged forward. So we know, according to the medical examiner's report, that these individuals were essentially crushed to death in the crowd. Compression asphyxia. So explain to me what compression asphyxia is specifically, and then we can go from there, Joe. Yeah, Jackie, you know, we hear the term asphyxia all the time in death investigation. And as certainly we've learned over this past year, when cases like Gabby Petito and other cases, we know that it has something to do with a lack of oxygen, doesn't it? Anytime you hear this term asphyxia and in compression asphyxia specifically, it's different than, say, things like a choking or ligature strangulation, a hanging,

or even, say, for instance, a smothering, even though there are some elements that are similar. But with compression, we have to think about two areas. First off, the chest, all right? And then we have to think about the neck. So, just imagine, if you will, you're in a very kind of tight, constricted space where individuals are pressing on you and are inhibiting your ability for your chest to rise and fall. Remember, that's one of the things that we look for in death investigation. Well, specifically in emergency medicine, one of the questions they'll ask is their chest rising and falling. And what that means is, are they inhalating and exhalating air? Okay.

And so absent that ability to inhalate and exhalate, that means that you're not taking in oxygen. All right. Your lungs are not taking it in. And, of course, it has to process it. And then, of course, that oxygen-rich blood that's transported, you know, the oxygen is transported via the hemoglobin. It keeps us pumping, doesn't it? It keeps us going. So you have this event where this oxygen supply is cut off. So if you can't expand your chest and breathe in air, you're in trouble.

Now, the other area where compression asphyxia takes place and something that has to be considered is a compression of the neck. Again, an area we've talked about where you have a pressure that is being applied to the neck externally, externally, and so that it's impacting or squeezing down on the carotid vessels. These are the two major vessels that run up the neck and into the brain and supply the brain directly with oxygen. And this is what happens when the oxygen to the brain is cut off, if you will, or is diminished. This results in a condition that's referred to as anoxia.

Individuals become anoxic and they don't have sufficient air supply or oxygen to the brain so that the brain can function. Remember, and I talk about this quite a bit, the brain is essentially the most vascular organ in the body. And what that means is that it requires the greatest amount of blood flow, certainly oxygenated blood, in order to supply it with energy so that it can process everything that goes on in our body, whether it's motor movement, where we're moving around, we're blinking our eyes and all that stuff, or in the autonomic sense, auto meaning self, where it's telling our heart to beat, it's telling us to breathe, all these other functions that we don't have to think about that just kind of happen. That's the autonomic nervous system. So all of that oxygen and that energy that derives from oxygenated blood is essentially cut off at that moment in time,

and it can lead to catastrophic outcomes. You'll have individuals that may very well at a very primal level still be technically alive, but they go into a comatose state as a result of this oxygen deprivation, if you will. And so in this case, there were several people that were taken to the hospital that never regained consciousness. And that's because they had their oxygen supply that was removed from them. Some of these people had to be placed on a vent just to keep them alive to see if they would survive. And, of course, as we know, it didn't happen. Joe, how much pressure does it take to keep you from being able to expand your lungs? We know that some of these victims were as young as nine. So obviously it's going to be different, I would imagine, for a child as it would be for an adult. How much pressure does it take to keep you from expanding your lungs?

Yeah, that's an excellent question. And it's going to be variable, dependent upon the person. And say it's going to be dependent upon their structure. If you will, give me a little latitude here. It's going to be dependent upon the architectural structure of their body, how robust they are, how muscular they are, what kind of medical condition or lack thereof. Are they predisposed to any kind of medical problems like lung problems or heart problems, anything that might inhibit their ability to function at a normal level. So you begin to impact them with weight. And let me give you an idea as to what happened. As these individuals were essentially

being, I don't necessarily like the term crushed because it implies like you're literally stepping on something to crush it. And I'm sure that there were blunt force trauma injuries that could be associated with stepping on and kind of crushing, if you will. But this is compression where you're pressing down tighter and tighter and tighter. So let's just say, for instance, one individual is laying on the ground and that's a firm surface. We have to assume that the ground out there was probably an asphalt or concrete surface. And as bodies begin to pile on top of this individual, the individual, if they weigh, say, for instance, I don't know, 140 pounds, let's say this little child, the child was only nine, that child is not going to weigh,

certainly it's not going to weigh in excess of 80 to 90 pounds, I would think at the top end. Then you have, let's say for instance, 175 pound man trips and falls on top of that child. And then another 175 pound man, and maybe you throw in somebody that weighs 250 pounds, and all the while, that child is being pressed down further and further and further, and his little body cannot compensate. It can't fight against the weight that is being applied to his body and his body's need to get that chest expanded so he can breathe the air in. So the more weight you have applied, the more difficult it's going to become.

Now, I do know that, you know, I'd mentioned medical conditions. There was one individual in this group of 10 where compression asphyxia was made note of, that he did, in fact, have drugs on board. I think that the individual had THC on board. He also had methamphetamine and these sorts of things. So you begin to factor that into that individual's ability to breathe in this highly kind of antagonistic environment that's going to compromise their body even further. Hold on, Joe. Yeah.

What do you mean by that? You're saying it's going to compromise their ability. You're saying that just even if it's marijuana, let's say, it's going to take you to what? I mean, it's not going to lower your oxygen capacity, but how is it going to impede breathing? Well, yeah, I mean, it could be marijuana or alcohol or any number of things, but it's going to impair your ability, your response time, for instance. It's going to slow your breathing anyway. So you're going to be compromised in that sense. And this individual, I don't know anything about his medical history, but if he has these drugs on board, I think that scientifically you have to kind of sit back and scratch your head and say, well, he's got this history at that moment in time where he has this these drugs on board. How long has he been engaged in the behavior utilizing things like methamphetamine, which can have dire respiratory outcomes just in and of itself.

And certainly, it can lead to things like hypertension, increased blood pressure, that sort of thing. And that's never a good situation to be in, particularly when you're panicked and you're shallow breathing and all of these things that are going on. So, it's a recipe completely for disaster. So, if you have a clear mind and you don't have any kind of drugs on board, it's still going to be tough. But can you imagine how further exacerbated this condition could be as a result of having something that would put you into an altered mental status? You know, you think about going to a concert.

I can't tell you over the course of my life how many I've been to, particularly outdoor concerts. I love them. You don't have this expectation that when you go, your life is going to come to an end, completely surrounded by strangers, and that there will be other people to your left and to your right that are dying as well. What a horrible way to go, Jackie. Joe, we know that these individuals died of compression asphyxia. We also know that some individuals fell to the ground and were trampled, as you were saying earlier. Is there a difference in that kind of an injury? Were the people, if they died on the ground, were they trampled or could they not breathe? Well, it's going to be a combination.

I think that when you begin to traumatize individuals by trampling them, and trampling to me implies not so much a positional or compression asphyxia event. That goes to blunt force trauma. All right. And, you know, Nancy Grace and I have covered cases over the years that are quite brutal where individuals have been literally stomped to death. OK, that's blunt force trauma. Now, these individuals may very well.

And again, I haven't seen the autopsy reports, but in an event like this, you're going to have blunt force trauma that can be identified on that. And what does that mean? Well, you you could very well have large contusions. And some of these contusions, and this is kind of haunting, Jackie, some of these contusions will actually have the appearance of a footprint. You can actually see a shoe tread that's left behind as a result of this. And that's just kind of a pattern injury, which is something that we'd look for in forensics all the time. You can have pattern injuries. Say, for instance, if an individual is stomped on on the back side of their leg, let's say they're laying face down, you stomp on them on the back side of their

leg as you're running away, your footprint might be on, say, the back of their thigh, but on the front of their thigh, there's also going to be an evidence of an abraded area that comes from the underlying surface. So that's happening as a result of this compression that's taking place, but it's quickly removed. You can have people that say, for instance, are knocked senseless because maybe the top of their head has been stepped on. They're knocked unconscious. And well, now they're in a compromised position where they don't have a level of consciousness, but their body still requires oxygen. And they don't have the ability to move

and get up out of that area because now they don't have any sense about them to do this. That primal thing has kind of left them at this point because that primal response to survival is left because they're unconscious, But yet you still have to breathe. And all the while, people are piling on top of them. And that really paints this horrific picture. And, you know, Jackie, one of the things that, you know, it kind of reflects back in my mind. And I think about what they're faced with here in this case and making these diagnosis and what, you know, what the road looks like going forward. First off, there is a level of horror to these deaths that I don't think that many people can comprehend if you've never been in

this kind of circumstance. And, you know, you hear when you're around lawyers a lot, like I am, and particularly in the civil context, when you're talking about civil litigation as opposed to criminal litigation, one of the measures that they do in civil law, remember, you don't look for guilt or innocence or guilt or not guilty in civil law. You look for damages relative to a propensity of evidence. That means how much evidence do you have that demonstrates what you're trying to prove? They use the term pain and suffering quite a bit. And I don't know that there are many things that could surpass that at this level where you have this much pain and suffering that's inflicted on people because it's a torturous way to die. You have an awareness, many of these people may have, that they don't have an ability to breathe and there's no way to escape. Can you imagine being this panicked in this environment? And interestingly enough, when you look at the history of compression

asphyxia, and to give you an idea how far back this goes in human history, there have been a number of crushing events that go hundreds of years back, you know, where people have panicked and run over. But a lot of people don't realize that compression asphyxia has actually been used as a method of execution and famously was actually utilized as a method of execution and famously famously was actually utilized as a method of execution during the Salem witch trials. There was one fellow that, that had stated and it's actually included in Arthur Miller's play, the crucible.

And this is, this is documented. They accused this guy being a witch and they, they put him between two boards and began to stack weight on him. And until he would confess. And the guy never confessed. And the only thing he ever said, Jackie, you know what he said? Because he was not going to confess, he'd say, more weight, more weight.

And they would put more and more stones on top of his body until he finally succumbed. And that's a very slow form of compression asphyxia. It's torturous. You said it's a slow form, Joe. How long would it take for you to die due to compression asphyxia. It's torturous. You said it's a slow form, Joe. How long would it take for you to die due to compression asphyxia? How long did these victims suffer? I think that this is the real horrific part of it. And I have to go back to an example of, say, specific applied pressure when you're talking about, again, in the case of Cabby Petito, where you're talking

about where she was throttled, where she had hands wrapped around her throat, and that is sustained pressure. Her death would have probably have been a bit quicker because with this kind of compression asphyxia, you might get a pause in there where the weight shifts. And this is a very dynamic environment because you've got people that are piling on top of one another and they're rolling about and this sort of thing. So you might have an opportunity in there where you're being compressed and all of a sudden the weight shifts, you can catch your breath again, but then the weight shifts back. And this could take, I don't know, it could potentially take 10 minutes for some of these people to have died.

And I think that that goes to how torturous and laborious this event would have been. And that's because it's it's you have a shifting of weight that's going on because of the dynamics of the environment. Remember, this is a frenzied crowd. People are running about. People are screaming. People are rolling about. It's not like there's constant pressure being applied specifically to them for the entire duration until all life is gone. So, it's very dynamic. And I think that's going to be very difficult for the medical examiner if they have to get on the stand in a case like this to actually give a specific measure of. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Bags. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.