Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Behind the Veil Murder, Mayhem, and the Mystery of Tammy Daybell

Episode Date: May 28, 2023

In this episode of Body Bags, hosts Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack unearth the details of Tammy Daybell's untimely death in Rexburg, Idaho. They dissect the initial misdiagnosis of a heart event and navigate through a labyrinth of murder allegations ensnaring her husband, Chad Daybell, and his new wife, Lori Vallow Daybell. They also highlight the crucial role of the coroner, the complexities of exhumation procedures, and the startling forensic evidence that contradicts prior claims about Tammy's death.  Subscribe to Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan : Apple Podcasts Spotify iHeart Time-codes:  00:00 - Intro. 01:25 - Introduction of Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow Daybell's connection to Tammy's death. 02:45 - Overview of Tammy Daybell's life and suspicious circumstances around her death. 05:50 - Critique of the initial lack of an autopsy and conflicting reports about Tammy's health. 08:40 - Discussion on the mysterious deaths surrounding Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow. 10:20 - Challenges of determining cause of death without an autopsy and the importance of the coroner's role. 16:30 - Overview of the complex circumstances surrounding the investigation. 18:05 - Examination of physical clues found on Tammy's body and ensuing exhumation. 21:00 - Tammy's alleged convulsions and implications, with Chad as the sole source of information. 24:15 - Explanation of the legal proceedings surrounding Tammy's exhumation. 27:05 - Emphasis on the role of detailed evidence in post-mortem examinations. 29:05 - Revelation of restraint and asphyxiation as the cause of Tammy's death. 33:30 - Forensic techniques used to understand Tammy's death. 35:00 - Speculation on multiple perpetrators and scrutiny of the timeline following Tammy's death. 37:15 - Conclusion and sign off from the episode of Body Bags.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Rexburg, Idaho. It's one of those places I've never actually been to Idaho. I have been on the western bank of the Snake River in Oregon and have looked over into Idaho, and it's beautiful. Beautiful, very appealing to the eye, and the environment is incredibly varied there.

You know, you got the Rockies that run through there. You got these, you know, kind of high desert plains and all these sorts of things. But never in my imagination did, first off, did I think that I would talk about the state of Idaho as much as I have, I guess, over the past four years, five years, however long it's been, I want to focus on Rexburg today and one of the citizens of Rexburg, a female citizen. She has been documented in the news now for lo these many years, perhaps one of the biggest mysteries surrounding this bizarre, murderous environment that was inhabited by Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow Daybell. Today, we're going to discuss, finally, the findings of the autopsy of Tammy Daybell.

I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Bags. Dave Mack, been waiting for info. You know, there's that part of me that wants to know, but there's that old investigator within me that knows why I should not know. You know what I'm saying? Because it's not about how much stuff can be flooded out into the media, how much data, how much information. It's about a trial that is going to determine whether or not you're going to have individuals held responsible for murder. There are shocking parts of this case every day, meaning because we've dealt with so many other aspects of the relationship between Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell. And when you look at those two, if you put them at the top of the pyramid chain, you know, you're going to find a lot of death and destruction of people and families all because of Chad Daybell and his first real big follower, Lori Vallow. We could deal with that later on.

Today, we're talking about Tammy Daybell. Tammy was 49 years old. She and Chad Daybell married in March of 1990. They had 28 years together, five children together, just a wonderful little family. I don't know if you're aware of this, but Tammy Daybell was somebody that she was very respected. Co-workers said she was a computer whiz. Meanwhile, Chad Daybell was really, he didn't have much of a professional career, really. The only thing Chad had were the books that he wrote that took Mormonism and really went down a wrong rabbit hole and twisted and turned and whatever. But it was Tammy Daybell

that actually was the one person that that family could count on. The rock in that family. And I'm glad you mentioned this because she was a rock in the community as well. You remember when you were in, well, elementary school, middle school, junior high, I think when we were kids, they still call it junior high. And high school, there was the media specialist, the librarian. And everyone, it didn't matter what grade you were in, you're going to pass through the library at some point in time. That's that person. That's what Tammy did for a living. So, any group of people that pass through, you know, the schools there in Rexburg,

Idaho, they knew Tammy. They knew her from church and whatnot and everything else that she was engaged with. And these children that her and Chad had produced together, these were adult children now and they were in her life. And children, for a family, they're like little ships that are set of sail after you bring them to adulthood. You know, they go forth and, you know, they're carrying your name with them. Good behavior or bad behavior. They're known. And certainly she was known as well.

And it was a good known. You know, regardless of what people thought of Chad, Tammy Daybell was looked upon with a respect and a dignity that really and truly did not fit her demise. To really make this short, because I know we've covered so many things associated with this story, kind of catching up a little bit. Tammy and Chad have been married for 28 years. They had the five children. When it came down to October of 2019, there was a lot happening with Chad Daybell kind of being the puppet master. And that's why we're dealing with at 49 years old, a seemingly healthy woman

died in her sleep. Suppose that's what we were told. This is the nuts and bolts. Okay. We have Lori Vallow on Lori Vallow Daybell on trial right now, uh, for the murder of her own children. And then an accessory with Tammy Daybell's passing. Most of us were totally shocked to find out two weeks after Tammy Daybell passes away, Chad Daybell marries Lori Vallow on the beach in Hawaii. Two weeks. That's it. 28 years. How do you do that?

He couldn't wait 28 days. No. Matter of fact, Joe, you know what? It came out in court that he, Chad, introduced Lori Vallow as his future wife a week after Tammy Daybell was dead. Okay. At first, there was no autopsy. How does a 49-year-old woman just die in her sleep? Chad let it be known that she had been suffering through a number of medical issues. Friends said, no, she wasn't. She was training for a marathon. So we have these two differences

of opinion. Chad and Tammy's children claim they were the reason there was no autopsy done on their mother. I find that hard to believe, but that's what they said on CBS News. They said, no, it was not our dad. We were the ones that didn't want an autopsy. I kind of have a feeling that Chad told them we don't want an autopsy. For those that aren't familiar in the medical legal environment, the children do not make that decision. That decision is actually made by the living spouse. That's how this works. He is the one that would have made that final determination got essentially a coroner that was not in attendance physically at at the scene of the death there's any number of ways we could look at that you begin to think about well what what leads you to the conclusion that this is okay to release this body

from the scene directly to a funeral home without seeing the body in its context and i've talked about this in a previous episode. About the Daybell family. And specifically about Tammy. You get one shot at seeing her. In the context of that environment. In which she indwells. And which she passed away. Because the body is going to give you certain information.

But the environment always gives you certain information as well. And when you take it. Take the body and the scene. Out of context. You can go down any number of routes with this, and you're never going to come to a sufficient conclusion. It's certainly not as satisfying as you would if you went physically to the scene and observed Tammy's body in place, maybe even have drawn toxicology. If you're in, you can do this. We do this externally where we draw blood externally. We draw urine externally and at least have that.

But that wasn't done, Dave. And of course, that's watering the bridge. I got to ask you this, though. A 49-year-old woman dies and she's not under, she's not being treated by a doctor for any kind of condition. You know, it's not like she had a weekly appointment with a doctor that was managing her care so it just strains i other than somebody saying it's either a religious issue or something along those lines we can't we don't need to do an autopsy she just died she was already sick we knew it who do you believe that now granted when tammy

daybell died they didn't know, police did not know that Chad Daybell was involved with Lori Vallow in any way, shape or form. They didn't know at the time that Lori Vallow had two children that were missing. They didn't know that Lori Vallow's husband died under weird circumstances the previous summer in July. So all of these things that we know now, they did not know in Idaho at that time. But I'm really curious, and you mentioned the coroner not being there. We've got a 49-year-old woman dies in Rexburg, Idaho. They bury her across state lines in her home in Utah, right?

I guess my confusion here is, how is it not deemed a suspicious death? We got to find out more when a 49-year-old seemingly healthy woman dies. And who actually makes that call, Joe? By law, it's the coroner. The coroner is going to trump anything, any wishes that the family have. Okay? Just let that be known. If the coroner says that there shall be an examination, there shall be an examination by law.

Now, they'll take the family's thoughts into consideration. But this is precisely why coroners are supposed to go to scenes. This is precisely why bodies are supposed to be examined at the scene, hopefully more thoroughly. Because once that moment has gone, you know, the old legal adage about you can't unring the bell. Once that tone has gone forward, you cannot recapture it. And it really handicapped this case because you're searching for answers. You're trying to explain, as you stated, this young woman, and she is a young woman. She's 49 years old. The picture

of health, apparently, you do not rely specifically on what the husband actually relates because here's the thing. If she doesn't have an attending physician, okay, she doesn't have an attending physician, she doesn't have a pre-existing condition, she doesn't have some kind of underlying disease, who's going to sign the death certificate? Well, the coroner has to sign the death certificate. And if the coroner's going to sign the death certificate, what are you going to list as a cause of death if you don't know? Are you just going to make it up? Are you just going to make a guess? Because in Tammy Daybell's case, what was concluded at the scene that turned out not to be true,

that her death was actually related to a cardiac event. There's a term that you hear a lot in the military that's part of our vernacular now, I think because of all the military movies that are out there, particularly in recent history, and it's eyes on. I wonder what that means for most of us. Eyes on is that you have a presence in a location where you can visualize something. Some people refer to this as visualization. I've actually heard this term called actualization, which I've never really understood. But I do know this. When it comes to the death of Tammy Daybell, and you've got this relatively young woman who's, by most estimates, the picture of health.

It's important to have eyes on, and I think that you need a coroner that's there that can observe the environment, observe the people in her environment, and most importantly, can observe her. What do you think about that, Dave. Following along with criminal cases, dealing with death, I have learned so much listening to you, as have many of us, okay? Because there are certain things that we just don't know. And I'm going to ask you this, and I hope it's not a stupid question. But you have in this particular case, everybody thought she was in good health, seemed to be in good health. And she dies in her sleep. Her husband describes her coughing and he describes her as being a little sick prior to death. But she was under no treatment of any doctor and she dies.

Now, you have the paramedics. They call 911. Paramedics come out and they declare her dead, I guess. And I know it's different in every state who actually makes that declaration. If you have somebody who dies at home, is the coroner called to the scene right away to come and see the entire situation as it's laid out, even if it doesn't look like anything criminal has taken place? First off, in a case like this, everything is up for questioning. I encourage anybody, when you're dealing with something that's this complicated, you have to have answers. They have to be scientifically sound,

the responses that you receive. And with any kind of scientific pursuit, inquiry into these events, particularly as it applies to death, is key. An inquiry means you're going to have to be present in that moment and to observe. You have to have demonstrative evidence. The one baseline where in most cases, not every, but in most cases where a death is not necessarily reportable to the coroner is where you have an individual that is in a terminal phase where they have been diagnosed. And most of the time, that's going to throw them into the category of hospice care.

I think many of our listeners are familiar with hospice. And unfortunately, some are incredibly familiar with it because they've had to endure a death of a loved one. Many times those deaths are not reportable. The only person that's actually contacted in a case like that is going to be a hospice nurse. Well, I think that you and I, Dave, can agree that Tammy Daybell didn't fit into this status. I compare her death at 49 and compare that to my father-in-law who died at 73 he was under hospice care for the weeks leading up to his passing and we all gathered around as he got worse and said

our goodbyes and when he passed everybody was on him we knew it was coming Tammy Daybell went to bed the night before she's 49 years old and she dies and that's why I'm saying this is not normal I would expect somebody's going to be called. But here's the quag. And this is what I wanted to pitch, Joe, is at the time Tammy Daybell died, nobody in the law enforcement community was aware that there was something going on between the Vallow children being missing because at that time they weren't even listed as missing. Nobody was looking for them at that time when Tammy died. They didn't tie together that Chad Daybell might be in a relationship with somebody other than his wife. Nobody knew that. They looked at this as a 49-year-old woman died in her bed, her husband by her side kind

of thing. So in that moment, even though it seems innocent, I have to challenge somebody being able to walk away from a 49-year-old seemingly healthy woman and just say, oh, it's natural causes. That's not natural at 49 these days. Maybe back when people died at 50, it would be, but not now. Not now. We're talking about life expectancy now has kind of gone past the marker of 80, I think, in many circumstances. And I love what you said just a second ago, Dave, about this. You don't know what's going on.

I'm from, many people know I'm from New Orleans. And so I've written out multiple hurricanes. One of the things about being in the middle of a hurricane, one of the eeriest things is being in the eye when the eye passes directly over. And anybody that's never been in that environment, if you were to be plopped down in the eye of a hurricane on the ground you wouldn't know that you're in the middle of a storm a massive storm it's all out on the periphery and it's swirling but you can't really see it and that's kind of that's maybe a poor illustration but that's kind of the what we were faced with i think that many

people that are associated with this case they didn't know that jj and tolly were gone actually i think that's a perfect illustration because think about imagine back in the day when you couldn't see like this so yeah there was a hurricane going all around that nobody knew about nobody knew it's very easy chief among here speaking, to sit in judgment of somebody, you know, looking back retrospectively. But there's just certain things that you're going to look for. You got a 49-year-old dead. I've got questions, and by God, I want answers.

So that's why it's important that the coroner did, in fact, show up. Got 911. We've got a deputy responding. We've got EMS responding. You would think that you would want EMS for a 49-year-old. This is not a terminally ill person. You're thinking there's a chance that they're going to try to do everything. But when they arrived, they noted that there were no signs of life. And it's at that point, you know, you talked about the coroner coming out, that's when that switch is flipped. When they're looking there and they're trained, you know, to examine a body, their patients obviously are alive. They're going to try to transport them in. They knew that all

hope was gone at this point in time, got called coroner. So, the coroner shows up and it came out in trial, in testimony. Not only the coroner showed up, but also the deputy coroner. Deputy coroner preceded the actual arrival of the coroner. So you had two medical legal authorities that showed up at the scene. They observed this frothy, pink, edematous cone that there was a lot of vague information about at first. You know, one of the kids, I think in one of the television interviews had said, yeah, yeah, we saw that this was present on our mother's face. The children, I think, had stated that they're the ones that insisted that an autopsy not be performed. Look, the person that makes that decision, first off, is the coroner. It's not the family. The family can protest. They can say, no, we don't want an autopsy.

And they can scream from the rooftops. But if the coroner deems it necessary, that it serves a greater good for us to have the answers, yeah, I mean, the coroner might listen to the family and say, yeah, we'll go along. We'll abide by your wishes. When you're a medical legal authority and you're standing over the body of a woman that has suddenly died, there's no indication that she's got a heart history or some kind of cardiac event. Now, it appears that she's probably in congestive failure because she's got this pink frothy cone coming out of her mouth, which is something that we associated with a congestive failure. You'll see it with ODs as well. You see it in drownings. But here's the thing. You also see it with asphyxial deaths, Dave. That's the problem here.

Because, you know, as we come to find out later, when her body was eventually removed from the grave down in Utah, they found things that would indicate that this was something other than a natural death. So it's at that moment in time that the coroner makes a critical determination. They decide to rest solely on the information that's being provided to them by a one Chad Daybell. He's telling the coroner that, yes, she's had, I think he termed it as convulsions. I don't know what you mean by convulsions. When you say convulsions, because if you tell me that as a death investigator, I'm going to say, well, I need you to put a finer point on that for me. You're saying she has

had convulsions. Okay. Give me the dates and times. Where were you when this was going on? Had she just ingested anything when this happened? Is there a history of family having quote unquote convulsions? Do any of the kids have convulsions? Is this something that you've witnessed? And were there any other witnesses to these convulsions? Do any of the kids have convulsions? Is this something that you've witnessed? And were there any other witnesses to these convulsions? Hey, when she had these convulsions, did she ever fall to the floor and bite her tongue? Did she thrash all about and get hurt as a result of bumping into things? I want to know more about these so-called convulsions, because if you got convulsions, that means that there's some kind of root there from a medical perspective, a disease perspective that's causing that.

And I would think that if she's having convulsions and I'm sitting there and I'm telling the coroner this and I'm looking at my kids, well, how do I know that there's not some kind of genetic predisposition? You've got a 49-year-old wife. I'm staring at my kids that are there in the room and I'm thinking, well, if this is a problem, these quote-unquote convulsions, how do I know that my kids aren't going to have this? But you know, Joe, on top of that, the convulsions. Okay. If my wife was suffering from something as he indicates convulsions,

something more than an extended cough that was recognizable that I would put a tag to it like that. We would have doctor's records because I would have taken her to the doctor. This is not normal. This is beyond I've got a nagging cough. These are adult children now who they basically get their information about their mother's health from their father, Chad Daybell. So Chad Daybell is the person telling the kids, telling the authorities on the scene, everybody gets their information, and whether it's said by a child or not, all of the information is coming from Chad Daybell about the health of his wife who now suddenly has been having convulsions. He's the proverbial rudder on the ship, isn't he?

He's the wellspring, the font, if you will, from the knowledge that comes forth relative to her. And here's the thing. I'm curious as to how thorough the examination of her body was at the scene. There's going to be evidence here on her body that's going to be revealed as a result of, you know, this exhumation. What did you see in real time if you're the coroner? And look, I'm all fine and good if you, maybe you decided, okay, I'm going to lean not unto my own understanding here and just go with what the husband says. I guess at the end of the day, relative to Tammy at the scene,

I'd want to know how thorough was your examination of her remains at the scene. Did you see anything? Did you notice anything? What is it that made you feel so comfortable that you felt like her body could be released, transported to another state, and buried. Never, and I mean never, underestimate what a true professional in the medical legal field can accomplish when given the tools, the time, the facility, and their expertise to assess a human remain. And boy, was an assessment done by Dr. Eric Christensen.

He's a medical examiner for the state of Utah. Dave, we really had a big reveal, didn't we, in court? Yes. And I have one question before we go forward with this. My question relates to, she dies in her home in Idaho on October 19th, and she is moved across state lines, and they exhume her on December 11th. Who does the autopsy? Would it be the coroner from Rexburg, Idaho going to Utah to do the autopsy? Or Idaho is now out of the picture and it's all being dealt with in Utah?

Yeah, you've got a body that is now buried in Utah. You have to have a burial certificate. You know, they're going to crack open the ground, create a new grave, and that person is going to be deposited there in the state of Utah. So, that has to be worked through. Now, the coroner up in Idaho, they can request or, you know, certainly law enforcement could as well request an exhumation. They can request it. That doesn't mean that they can order it. And that's going to come down to the state officials in Utah as to whether or not they're going to grant that request. But somebody, probably the state attorney general up in Idaho, got on the phone and had a conversation with people.

Said, look, this is what we're staring at. And maybe the feds as well, because, Dave, as you well know, we've been following this low these many years. We've got dead bodies everywhere. In several different states. In several different states. In several different states. And not to mention, you've got a federal park that's involved in all this where you got two children or one of the children where they were actually last seen alive. So there's a lot of players involved in this. Well, thankfully, at least in this particular case, Dr. Eric Christensen is Utah's chief medical examiner. And according to everything I'm seeing,

Joe, they got, oh boy, I don't want to be cold. And I pray if you're a family member, you will forgive me. They got Tammy Daybell's body out of the grave around 6.30 in the morning, and they had her body back in the ground by 2.30 that afternoon. Is it common to do it that fast, Joe? I was actually shocked. I'm glad you picked up on that. But you know what that tells me, Dave? The fact that they were able to get her reinterred in such a short period of time. You know what that tells me, Dave? It tells me that there was prep that took place. They knew what they had to do. They went in and they accomplished a task in short order. And that means that you're standing by, you have every technician known to man that is saying,

okay, guys, this is when we're starting. The physician, Dr. Christensen, he actually was there overseeing the exhumation. So he physically was standing there as her remains were brought up out of the ground, traveled with them back to the state HME's office. And it's at that point that this examination took place. And it's almost like, I'm not trying to be morbid here, but it's almost like they would have pre-gamed this. They would have sat down and there would have been a game plan, you know, with everybody involved. You're going to have representatives from all of the interested parties, from law

enforcement perhaps. They're going to be there. You're going to have, like I said, your technicians there. I would imagine that probably Idaho had sent down their crime scene people to document everything photographically, not to mention Dr. Christensen's going to have his own photography that is there that's a bit different than crime scene photography, where you're going to be looking at specific trauma. And this actually comes into play in court because photographs, one of the ways this played out is that there were certain photographs that the judge in Tammy Daybell's case would not allow. They were not allowing these big, broad photographs. There were only a couple of those, what we refer to as macro photographs of the body. They were showing micro photographs,

and even one observer said they couldn't actually appreciate the anatomical orientation of the visual because you don't have a point of reference. Say, for instance, if you've got some kind of injury and they've only got like a close-up image of that injury, you can't appreciate where the apex of the shoulder is or the elbow or anything like that. Yeah, there's no scale. Yeah, exactly. Well, there might have been a scale, but it's so tight that all you see is skin. So that's why they actually drew the pictures showing where these were. Yeah, exactly. The doctor would. And look, when a doctor draws that diagram, and people have seen these diagrams that we generate at autopsy,

they're not inflammatory. Would you agree with that, Dave? I mean, they're not like a dissected body, but you can identify trauma on the body to say, I found it. I found an abrasion here. I found a contusion here. There's a gunshot wound here. You have this in a very non-inflammatory presentation. That's actually what happened. You know, and boy, did Christensen have a big reveal. I don't know, you know, because we've waited for this for so long. He came to some very interesting conclusions, didn't he? He did. And the thing that we had been told all along, of course, is that she died in her sleep. A 49-year-old woman dies in her sleep. No need to look into it any further. Wash your hands off. Hubby gets married again. But now we come to this

trial. We've got Dr. Eric Christensen on the stand, Utah's chief medical examiner. We've got pictures. We've got drawings. But we still don't know how she died. We know they said asphyxia, but what in the world do we find out, Joseph Scott Morgan? What the doctor's conclusion was, was that Tammy Daybell's death actually arose. First off, and this is quite horrible, there's evidence that she had been restrained, Dave. She's got contusions. If people will put their hand just superior to their left breast, okay, there's a big focal area of hemorrhage there. You've got a focal area of hemorrhage on the left bicep. So, that area that I was just referring to, superior to the left breast. So, you've got a contusion there.

You've got a contusion, the left bicep on the upper side, the upside. So if you're laying face down, then there's a series of four contusions running down the right arm, Dave. I mean, they run down the length of the right bicep almost up to the highest one is going to be where the upper arm joins the shoulder, just almost at the point of the armpit, and they run down all the way to the crook of the right arm, or what we refer to as the antecubital fossa, which is where you bend your arm right there. Then you flip Tammy's body over another line of contusions, Dave, that run down the posterior or the backside of her right arm. There's actually four there. So, you've got these multiple contusions all over her body. And what he had opined was that she was restrained. And these restraints appear to have occurred in the hours just prior to her death or in the midst, you know, those perimortem events that

we talk about, like in the throes of death. And he was able to verify, you know, we talked about the frothy edematous cone that had arisen out of her mouth that was witnessed that morning, actually, at the scene, I think, by one of her kids, he was able to demonstrate that there was edema in her lungs as well. So, that gives you an idea, for him at least, he said this is consistent with an asphyxial death. Now, how did this actually happen? Because you don't have anything of significance on the neck that would give you an idea of like a choking perhaps or a ligature, strangulation. But if she is restrained, if she is being held down, if she is being tied up, I can't really see that happening given the nature of these bruises because you've got them on

both aspects. You've got them on the front and the back of the arm. It would seem to me that perhaps, just perhaps, Tammy knew something was wrong. Something was happening. And maybe the perpetrator was on top of her, Dave. And she was fighting. She was fighting for her life in the middle of the night. Can you imagine waking up and you've got this big weight upon you and you know something is happening, you begin to fight back, but the person

perhaps has more muscle than you, they're stronger than you, they weigh more than you. And then while you initially have that feeling, suddenly something, maybe a hand or maybe even a pillow, compromises your airway and begins to press down on you. And you're fighting. You're in a dead sleep while this happens. And you wake up to this. You're fighting. You're struggling. And then all of a sudden, it can't breathe anymore. And now you've passed away in the marital bed, which by virtue of what Dr. Christensen said, Dave, this is an indication that this is, he ruled this case not as a natural, you know, which we were told in the beginning, this is some kind of seizure, it's some kind of heart event or something. No, no, no. He said that her death is classified as a homicide and that this is actually an asphyxial death. Can you see bruising that has occurred prior to death or is it possible for a body to be bruised after death? And I mean, I know this is like asking a lot of questions at one time, but I'm

really curious because I know we've seen a discussion or a rather a dialogue about the bruising on her body and where it happened. How can they tell when, where, and how it took place when you got a dead body? Dead bodies don't bruise. That's just something that doesn't happen. It can be traumatized. You know, you have cuts and scrapes and all those sorts of things, but they look different than they do in life. But here's the thing.

This is what this forensic pathologist in Utah did, and this is absolutely brilliant. I've never talked about this on Body Bags before, but it's a great opportunity to discuss it. This forensic pathologist actually did what's called a layer dissection, Dave, where he didn't just merely cut into the tissue. Okay? He painstakingly, on each one of these little contused areas that they're seeing on Tammy Daybell's body, he did a layer dissection where he went first down through the dermis, which is that top layer of skin. You got the epidermis and the dermis. He kind of lifts that back and looks for the underside of the skin to see where the bruising is there, the contusion. Then he goes into what's referred to as the subcutaneous fat, goes in there, see, did

the bruising extend down through there? And then he trims back even further. He did this probably on each one of these insults. Then he goes into the muscle, Dave. He goes into the muscle and actually trims through it to see how deep this contusion went. And you know what you can tell by that? How much direct pressure was applied. Because the deeper you go, the more pressure is going to be applied. And it gives you perhaps a sense of violence vis-a-vis how much pressure was applied. And perhaps,

just perhaps, did Tammy fight back? And that's what everybody really wants to know. You said she was restrained. Does that indicate there might have been more than one person restraining her? Wow. Yeah. Great question, Dave. Great question. How are you going to pull that off, I wonder? How exactly can that be proven? I don't know necessarily that it could be. I think that what we begin to think here is that you begin to look at those that are most intimately involved. And if you're married, who are you most intimate with? Well, that individual that you share a bed with, that's quite something to consider for that moment

in time, particularly given, you remember what you said about Chad marrying Lori Vallow? Give me the time frame again. How long? Tammy died October 19th. Chad Daybell married Lori Vallow on the beach in Hawaii, November 5th. Holy smokes. And then we've got Tammy's body being exhumed in early December. My, how fast things happen, huh? With what we're seeing in court and the big

reveal of the bruises of restraining, I'm still trying to wrap my head around how did she, how was she asphyxiated? Will they ever be able to determine? Yeah, I don't know that they necessarily would have been able to specifically identify the mechanism. But in his final conclusion, Christensen actually opined that her death could have come about as a result of smothering or what's referred to as neck or chest compression, which means that you have a tremendous amount of weight pressing down upon the neck. Your chest can't rise and fall, and your airway is compromised because you've got pressing down on the neck where the airway is, or externally you're compromising the airway by blockage of the nasal passage in the mouth. Either way, this medical examiner concluded that her death was brought about as a result of her oxygen uptake being compromised, and it was, of course,

at the hand of another. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Bags. This is an iHeart Podcast.