Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan : For The Love of Money - The Death of Fasil Teklemariam

Episode Date: August 4, 2024

Police arrive at the apartment of Fasil Teklemariam in Washington DC for a call of an unconscious person. Police quickly note that Fasil is more than unconscious, he is dead. Multiple stab wounds, and it appears that one of his thumbs has been cut off. On this episode of Body Bags, Joseph Scott Morgan will explain what happens when a thumb is severed from a hand, and can experts tell if it happened when the victim was alive or dead. Dave Mack will dig into the background of those involved and try to figure out who talked.    Subscribe to Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan : Apple Podcasts Spotify iHeart   00:02.12 Introduction: "The Rule of Thumb"02:51.25 Discuss removing thumb to rob victim05:14.45 Discuss James Bond,"biometric" science09:04.94 Talk about CCTV footage 14:20.13 Discussion of thumb removed from body19:08.42 Discussion of what happens when everything dries up22:33.29 Talk suspects stole key fob allowing access to the building27:57.92 Discuss thumb came after trying to extract info32:00.21 Discussion of shoe print left behind36:46.63 Discussion of weapons used, did they use knives found in kitchen36:49.34 Conclusion: they wanted his money, took his lifeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Body Bags with Joseph Scott Moore. It's weird when we think about the origins of sayings that we have, you know, from over the years, and they kind of enter the lexicon, they stay with us. But we don't consider the origins of them. And one in particular that is used is the term rule of thumb. And most people don't think about the origin of that. Now, it's got a dubious origin at best, but when it comes down to it, it's a unit of measurement. And no, it has nothing to do with the size of a stick one can beat their wife with. That's a fallacy. That's been proven as untrue. It's actually

a unit of measurement for construction that was devised back in the Middle Ages. But today we're going to talk about not a rule, but we're going to talk about a thumb. A thumb that was removed from a man's hand, his right hand in particular, in order to accomplish something that is absolutely positively horrific. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Packs. Dave, wow. This case kind of landed on us for a moment. I had to go back and reread the first few lines. Actually, the headline, actually the headline, because the headline that I initially saw contained the line

that the victim in this case, his thumb had actually been removed. And I guess one of the biggest questions is he's dead. Obviously, we're recovering on body back well there you go and i hope that he was dead when his thumb was removed oh my gosh this is horrible i've got to ask you about that joe that's in my notes to ask you all right here we go we've got 53 year old fossil tekelmarion fossil was murdered and then his thumb was cut off either right before he died or after he died and was used to access his digital apps for money i have one of these on my phone i have where i can yeah use my thumb you know as an identifier as opposed to typing in a number or anything else

my thumb yeah i'm now considering changing that but that's's what they did. In the wake of the story you are? Yeah, because really, I didn't think this was a... I didn't think about it, Joe. I just didn't. The bottom line always is the bottom line. Fossil was murdered for money. That's it. And there's a total of five people that are involved in this.

Two women are already in jail. A third one is talking to police. It doesn't get much deeper than this no it doesn't kill him and cut off his thumb to steal his money but the fact from an investigative perspective dave the beauty of this if there is beauty is first off the question that you would ask what's the purpose of removing the thumb? Okay. When you're observing the scene, and I think that's kind of an obvious question, but not necessarily. Why the thumb as opposed to the other nine digits that this individual has?

Because to this point, we only know the single digit of the thumb that is missing. So was it a torture event? I think you would ask that question. But as it turns out, this is what we refer to as biometrics. And there's actually biometric forensics that are out there in the digital world. And... Every day I learn something new. What is biometric forensics? Yeah, biometric forensics. So, well, you use it every day.

We use it every day now. It used to be very space age. And let me tell you a quick story. I'm a big James Bond fan. Okay. And yes, I, to go ahead and clear this up from Jump Street, my favorite James Bond of all time, Sean Connery. So anyway, beside that, there was a movie that was made with Sean Connery when he was older and it came out in 1983 and it was outside of the, of the James Bond universe. And it was called Never Say Never Again. Yeah. And it was actually,

I thought it was a very good movie i enjoyed it because i enjoyed sean connery but you know in that movie they used an early form of biometrics because the idea was they were trying to get in like every james bond movie they're trying to get access to the new to a nuclear weapon or nuclear codes right well they had taken a U.S. Air Force officer and done surgery on this guy to implant a retina in his eye. And he was going to pose as another pilot. And they had to get biometric. I know you're rubbing your eyes. Biometric access to the codes. And they go through get biometric, I know you're rubbing your eyes, biometric access to the

codes. And they go through the whole thing. It goes into great detail. And I was shocked by it. I was a very young man when I saw this movie in the theater. But that's one of the earliest remembrances I have of biometrics. And still today, we use retinal scans. We use palm scans. You know,

you can place your hand on a platform and it'll scan your palm. They use facial recognition. That's biometric. So it's the measurement of all things relative to you. And when it comes to fingerprints in particular, that's one of the oldest things where we apply a numeric formula to in forensics. It's called the Henry numbering system or the Henry system. And it equates, it gives a numerical value to each point of identification along your friction ridge lines. And so they've taken that now and expanded that out into access, security and control. And that's what we're dealing with with this poor man's phone. And the biggest I think the biggest reveal, Dave, here is the fact that somebody, if this wasn't torture, somebody had intimate knowledge of him that he used his thumb in order to access his phone. They must have seen him do it before. Audrey Miller and Tiffany Taylor Gray.

Audrey's 19. Tiffany Taylor Gray is 22. They both knew Fossil. He's 53. They knew him. They're very close acquaintances, business friends, whatever you want to call it. And they knew him in the biblical sense. They knew this man and they knew how he accessed things.

As a matter of fact, Tiffany Taylor Gray had been charged a year before this with stealing sixteen hundred dollars from Fossil. And not exactly sure how all that went down, but any way you look at it, a lot of us use our thumb in opening up our phone. And when so many people have their financial data using apps on the phone to pay bills and things like that, once you're in, you're in. And that thumb scan can get you into your banking information

in a lot of cases. I am amazed, you know, having a son that is, you know, in his early 20s, college student. I'm amazed when he it's almost like he's speaking a foreign language. Yeah. You know, like, you know, can you shoot me money over a cash app? Right. In some in some manner. And they can be on multiple platforms.

And it goes into an account. And I know I seem like an old dinosaur. I understand that. That's okay. I'll roll like that. I'll take that. But there are so many of these things where this thing, this boat anchor, digital boat anchor that we all carry around in our pocket, it not only has the ability to track us, but also the most intimate details of our lives. My papa used to say when I was young, he would say, son, do yourself a favor.

Never discuss with anybody what church you attend, who you voted for, or how much you make. And in this case, I think the latter was discussed ad nauseum. Nausea. Dave, other than the thumb, I think that probably one of the things that was so striking to me about this case was the fact that they apparently have tons of CCTV footage in this particular case. And the fact, you know, people think that they're so smart with the way and that they're so sophisticated with what they

can do digitally, but people are so ignorant when it comes to not being not being situationally aware where they if you're going to perpetrate a crime where you face is constantly being caught on camera. And Dave, we're in the D.C. metro area here. I was going to point that out, Joe. And I wonder how different it is there than in other parts of the country. This is in a building, an apartment building. Right. So depending on the area, I can't imagine not having security cameras in an apartment building like that. Because something can happen inside that apartment building and you need a record of it.

You need to know who was there and when. And that's what we did find out in reality. I got to tell you, I don't know if you've got any friends that live in the D.C. area, but it is one of the most expensive places in the U.S. that you can live. And so in my mind, I don't know how much he was paying per month. But one of my demands, I think, would be if I'm paying out this kind of money, I better have security. I better have CCTV. But, you know, any kind of camera that might give you comfort that the people that own the apartment is not necessarily for your benefit. It's for their benefit because they're trying to, you know, give you the sense of security or they're trying to knock down the possibility of crime, which, of course, didn't thwart anything here.

I think that goes to the potentially the mindset of the people that are perpetrating this. But, you know, you would think that you would have an awareness if you're a perpetrator, particularly. And I'm going to go ahead and throw out this term, Dave. You had mentioned that this young woman knew him in, well, you said the biblical sense. I'll say the Abraham-Sarah sense, you know, that he knew them. One of these young ladies had actually used the term sugar daddy, said that this is my sugar daddy. And, you know, that implication for me flies to, first off, prostitution. So, you know, I'm thinking, okay, so you're actually saying that he's a sugar daddy. You're being paid by him for services. And if you're willing to do that, to take money from this man, because he's

your quote unquote sugar daddy, and maybe you're getting favors from him in exchange, how many other people do you have in your circle that you're also exchanging, you know, I don't know, intimate acts with maybe drugs, anything like this. So all of a sudden your world kind of opens up when you begin to think about who might be involved in a case like this day. Well, this is in fossil actually suffered a beating. And, you know, we know we led with this. We didn't bury the lead, but the man's thumb was cut off. And we don't know if it was before or after he was dead, but he was beaten.

He was stabbed. And the physical attack on this man, we'll know more as it comes out. But right now, we do know that he was beaten. And I don't think it was just from these women. No, I don't either. I think you had mentioned, Dave, that there were we've got, I know one named male suspect at this point in time. And there are apparently a couple of other ones. And again, I come back to the CCTV. Right. Joe, let me apologize for something. couple of other ones and again i come back to the cctv uh right i got i'm you can actually see

you can actually see what appear to be males on the cctv footage and i want to apologize when we started the show gang i spilled a cup of coffee that went everywhere and it's it's a little disconcerting how we depend so much on electronics to this day. And I'm thinking about that, Joe, as I spilled my coffee and I thought. These people organized a theft that was based on a murder, followed by the hacking of a thumb. I wonder if there was a discussion about what would happen to the thumb after it severed from the body. Will it start to immediately

like the reason i'm saying the coffee thing is i've watched the copy the coffee dripping off of one of the tables in here right and i'm watching it constantly drip but you know what since i'm not adding any more coffee to that cup that's spilled once this finish is dripping there won't be any more and i'm wondering about the, because once you sever that thumb from the hand, it's now by itself. There's no more blood coming into it. It's just going out. How will that thumb react over a period of time in terms of being able to use it? They used it to open up his phone, to open up his apps, his financial apps, how long will that last? This might be one of the best questions you've ever posed to me. And I'm glad you opened the door for this because in the morgue,

and let me tell you what we do because some people are not aware of this. When we pull bodies, do you remember when you were little, mom would judge how long you'd been in the pool by how wrinkled your fingers come here let me see your hands okay well part of that is kind of a dehydration event that's going on and one of the things that you're faced with with um with decomposing tissue is this idea of what's referred to kind of one of these $10 words, desiccation. And desiccation is, and we've heard about desiccation, like desiccated fruit. You can have desiccated meat, you know, that's been dried out, like jerky, that's desiccated. And if you like with reduced things, if you add water to it, it brings the thing back to life. But for us in the morgue,

when we're trying to, if we have a drowned body, for instance, and we're trying to rehydrate the fingers, it's pretty wild. Most people don't know this. What we will do is we'll get the substance called tissue builder and morticians use it and when we die if you it's like it's like it's almost like a botox on steroids uh because as we die we we are our eyes begin to recede back into our head, all these sorts of things. And they will apply a tissue builder to literally build tissue up. And it's an injectable. Well, we use it in the morgue to go right beneath the skin and inject this tissue builder

in there. And it makes the hand, the fingertip reswell. So we can actually take it and roll a print off of it. The one thing you cannot defeat though, is the process of decomposition because you can continue to put tissue builder in there, but this is still going to, well, I'll just say it plainly. It's still going to rot by the way. Will it smell?

Will it be an odor? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And even I think you could possibly retard it a little bit if you were this forward thinking, where if you took it and placed the thumb in a refrigerator somewhere, you're not going to stop decomposition. I think that people believe that placing something in a freezer stops. It slows it, but it's still going down. And by the way, cold dehydrates things too. I mean, all you got to do is literally look at a refrigerator and sometimes... Yeah, freezer burn. And we also get it on ourselves during the cold weather months. But yeah, it's kind of fascinating how you

can build this out because what we're looking for is to try to enhance those friction ridges, which are displayed on the surface of the thumb. And here's something really cool, kind of a little aside for anybody out there that has, and this is kind of a horrible connection here, but you'll see where I'm going with it. If you want to introduce your child to forensics on any level, one of the cool places to start is if you will go to a dollar store and buy white balloons, white deflated balloons, and get an ink pad and take your child's finger and roll it on the ink pad and then take it and place, have them put their fingerprint down on the balloon, on the deflated balloon, remove it, and then blow the balloon up. All of a sudden your fingerprint comes to life and it expands out and

you can see all the little details, all the little friction ridges, the minutiae, everything. You can classify the print. We use this all the time in college, all the little friction ridges, the minutiae, everything. You can classify the print. We use this all the time in college. But it's a matter of expanding it out to the point where you're able to actually see those features. But here's the rub. If you're going to go to the point of planning to do something like this, where you're going to obviously kill a man. And after you've brutally killed him, by the way, you cut off his thumb.

Have you thought about what's going to happen when everything dries up. Brother Dave, we've got this poor man. I don't care who you are. No one deserves to die like he did. I mean, this is... And when we're about to get into the details of this thing, and when I do, you're going to be shocked. If you think the thumb is bad, and I still suspect that's probably something that was done post-mortem, and I'll tell you why in just a second. But there's so much to unpack here.

You know, he was, I think he was found like after four days. All right. Now, I wanted to ask you about this, Joe, because not being the forensic person, I've been around you for goodness gracious me over well over a decade on doing crime related reporting and shows. We've been on the same panel so many times and doing this show, talking to you about forensics on and off. I'm really curious as to how the case is going to be investigated from a police standpoint. You mentioned the CCTV cameras and they're going to pull that to find out who came in and out of Fossil's apartment. That's going to give you an idea of A, when he was killed, when he died, and who are the possible suspects in the killing.

And the two women that are already arrested and charged, by the way, they've been charged with first degree murder and armed felony murder. That's Audrey Miller and Tiffany Taylor Gray. You've got a 19-year-old woman

and a 22-year-old woman facing these charges. Another man, Tommy Wack. What a great name for a murderer. I was thinking the same thing. Man, our brains are... Yeah. Yeah.

He's 34, and he's been charged in connection to the case. There are two more people that have yet to be named that will be charged, and there is somebody talking. Somebody has been filling the police in

on this whole thing. You have said it many times. Somebody always talks. Somebody's going to roll over on the other person. You know, because they're staring down the barrel of going to the penitentiary. Right. And I don't like using the term prison, by the way. Penitentiary always sounds so much more ominous to me.

But you know what I'm saying? I mean, you're talking about first-degree murder and depend upon the state that you're in, which I don't think is going to apply here. But when you start talking about first-degree, there's all these elements. Obviously, you're looking, some people just say capital murder. But you're looking many times with first degree, Dave, one of the elements that's contained in there is a premeditative feature. You know, that thinking is going on here, like plotting, planning, that sort of thing. And now you've got, you know, kind of a, you know, a confederacy that's entered into this thing. These guys have entered into

a criminal enterprise. Well, when somebody shows up in your building wearing masks and they go to your apartment that tells you there's your premeditation they had something heinous on mine and that's actually what happened audrey miller taylor gray captured on camera going from his apartment coming and going from his apartment with two other men and wearing masks. So you've got the women going in. You've got them coming out. You had the women going back in with a couple of men going back out. They're wearing the men are wearing masks.

That's one of the reasons I say, well, premeditation. There you go. They know there are cameras. Yeah, they do. Hey, can I throw in one more bit here about electronics that you might be amazed by? Not only did they make off with his electronic devices, you know, we're talking about. I think they even mentioned the term iPad. They did.

But here's the other thing that they made off with. They made off with a key fob, Dave, a key fob that gives you access to the building. So guess what? Every time that key fob is tapped to that pad, that initiates a logging event in their electronic log. So for us in forensics, you know, we're, we're talking about, I think I, I don't want to get this wrong, but I think it was like they found he was last known alive like four days prior to they found him four days. You know, you can take you can actually get a measurement. Perhaps it would be kind of tangential, but you can get a measurement perhaps relative to how decomposed he was, because after four days, his body would have been showing some signs of decomposition. And every time somebody hit that key fob to get access to the building,

they've got CCTV of these people removing stuff from his apartment. Joe, because I don't know, if you have your thumb cut off and you don't treat it, you just sit there in the chair drinking coffee with your good hand. Will you bleed to death? Yeah, and you'll be in excruciating pain as well. It would be a horrible way to die by what's referred to as exsanguination, which is a fancy term that they use to talk about bleeding out. So you would exsanguinate and there would be a huge pool of blood that was adjacent. The only thing that might save you is, like I said, these indwelling clotting factors that we have.

Could the clotting factors outpace or stem the flow? You would have to apply direct pressure. I can't imagine anybody that wouldn't grab their thumb with their other hand, their stump, rather, and apply direct pressure. That's what I'm thinking. You would have to do something. But anyway. If they had cut this guy's thumb off in life, let me just tell you this. There would be blood, not to say that there's not blood everywhere, but there would be blood everywhere.

He would have been pumping blood, and you would see it all over the place. And I'm thinking there's a fight something's going on because it wasn't like he was shot in the head from behind and didn't know what was going on they chopped his thumb off and went about their merry way the there was an active fight that took place before he died he had multiple injuries and that's what i was wondering you know if if his thumb was chopped off while he was alive it would it be spurting and you have to wonder okay the women did refer to him as a sugar daddy i have to wonder if there wasn't some animosity if there wasn't some real hatred going on here between these young women and this man who's paying them for their

time and their bodies but when police actually start their investigation, he's already been dead for a couple of days. They need to find out who did it. And the motive is always a good thing when you go to trial. They're trying to figure out why they did it. Sadly, I think this could have been as simple as money and drugs. But what did they do to this man? What did these two women and any other people involved do to this 53-year-old man in his own apartment? Yeah, and it was multiple people.

I think they stomped this guy out is essentially what it came down to. And let me talk to you about these injuries. Now, we know that there was an edged weapon involved here. He's got multiple stab wounds, including one that's apparently, and I'll just describe it to you the way I read it. He's got an abdominal stab wound that is immediately adjacent to the stomach that is so deep that it actually goes into his spine. So you're talking about probably a person that is laying on their back because you would have to be in such a position to drive an edged weapon into somebody's body where it actually communicates with the spine. If you're entering it anteriorly, that's a tremendous amount of force.

So he's already in a position of submission. And this is what I think, all right? I believe he's been kicked, probably, punched. He's got multiple lacerations about his head. He's got multiple fractures, Dave, to his skull. This, I think, when you look at the frenzied activity of this, this is consistent. You know how I talked about how the thumb was, maybe it was a torture event relative to the thumb.

No, no, no, no. The thumb came afterwards. They were trying to extract information for him to get to the honeypot. And the honeypot for them was his bank accounts. And maybe, just maybe, obviously there's anger involved because you don't go over the top like this. You know, where one stab wound would have sufficed. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

No, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about multiple injuries. This guy, when the ME's investigators would have rolled up at the scene, this guy would have looked like ground beef. He would have been so brutalized at that point in time. And there would have been blood everywhere because he's got multiple defects in his body. I mean, for lack of a better, holes in his body that have been created by the knife. So he's bleeding out in life. So you're going to have this huge kind of deposition of blood that'll be surrounding the body. And it won't just be around his body. If this started somewhere else and he was stabbed in another room, because his body was

actually found in the bedroom. If this kicked off in another room and he stabbed initially, you're going to have a blood trail that's going to lead all over the place. This guy's, it's almost like, I don't know if anyone here has ever done this, but if you've ever been out in the yard and you bumped into a wasp nest, the one thing you're trying to do is get away from it when that first sting. Well, just imagine you've got these people that are attacking him. You want to try to put as much distance, that initial stab wound or whatever it was, you want to try to put as much distance between yourself and them. You could have deposition of blood throughout the house.

I've seen this played out over the years in cases I've worked where you'll have contact trace blood on the walls where people, I saw it in Travis Alexander, actually, with Jody Arias. Wow. That was a great example of this, where you could actually see his movement through the house after that horrible person had stabbed this guy in the shower. And at the scene, you can see where he kind of walks his hands down the wall. He's crawling on the surface of the carpet, not to mention the deposition over the sink, which was absolutely ghastly because they

clipped his lung. But you have deposition of blood. It's going to not just be on him, the floor. It's going to be on the perpetrators as well. And I think that's a big, big point to this. They're going to have an awareness that they're going to be leaving this house with physical evidence on them and they're leaving physical evidence behind. They tried to clean it up. And I thought that was fascinating the way the police dealt with this in their report. And because it clearly states that they had a lot of cleaning supplies that have been used and they didn't get everything. could think of joe is because when we clean something on the surface and it looks clean on tv it shows luminol you know using the black light spraying it with luminol and here it is now you've got all your stuff right back there it didn't actually get wiped away is that a real thing it is a real thing you just better have your camera ready okay because you know the the

luminescence of this thing it only lasts for a few seconds i think people think that so what you have to have is somebody that's going to apply this agent. And it could be Luminal. It could be Blue Star. There's a couple of these agents out there. And so you have to have your camera. Your camera person has to be ready. And you have to have your settings on your camera, right?

Because you're doing this in total darkness. Right. All right. And it's only going to luminesce. And you don't want here's the thing from a forensic perspective you don't just want something that looks like a footprint like if it's been left behind by shoe you want something that you can capture where you're going to be able to find detail in that shoe print that you can actually tie back to an individual.

And let's just, I don't know, let's throw a pair of Nikes. And I'm not a Nike fan. I don't wear Nikes. I'm an atheist guy. Okay, OJ Simpson and the Bruno Mollies. Yeah, there you go. I don't know. They have a variety of different patterns.

But when you look at shoe patterns, every crime lab has a running catalog of current shoe patterns that are out there. And they can kind of go through and match these things up. And they can look at what family. It looks like genealogy. They have, okay, this is the Asics family. This is Nike family, Adidas family, so forth, Brooks, so forth, and so on. And then they kind of track down from there.

And then they try to isolate that. I did not know that, Joe. Yeah. So that arms the police when they go out let me see your shoes you know we're coming in your house where's your shoes because they know that whoever was here in this and i think this is probably going to turn out to be a true bloodbath yeah they're going to know you know that there'll be some remnant left on the shoe we want to we're going to get a warrant for your shoes we're going to know that there'll be some remnant left on the shoe. We're going to get a warrant for your shoes. We're going to collect your shoes and also any kind of clothing that you might have in the house. Because, look, I have no idea what blood type this guy was.

No idea whatsoever. But if his blood is found on them and they can group that blood and then do a DNA, I'm not saying it's slam dunk. But I'm saying that that's going to be a major wrinkle thrown into the case for these people. Now, when the medical examiner released a report, it's never the in-depth report that you would see or that you would prepare. This is something used for the media where they just kind of gloss over things and just try to tell a quick story. Yeah. But how many of the wounds were actually fatal?

Or was it the combination of all of them? I think it was the totality of them. Because once you start to push somebody, um, traumatically, you know, one, one injury is not necessarily going to dictate, um, dictate that you're going to die, but you begin to heap. And I think that any clinician that's practicing, even in an emergency room, they'll tell you the same thing. If you just, you know, if you just cut your arm, uh, okay. But, oh, while you got your,

while you were cutting your arm, you fell to the ground and you struck the back of your head. Right. And you've got internal bleeding inside your skull. Well, those two things in combination. So, it's the totality of all the injuries. Here's the thing that I'm thinking about, and I hope people don't run screaming into the night when I reveal this about myself. In the morgue, I've actually had to remove fingers, okay, in the morgue. And I will tell you, generally with removal of fingers in the morgue, and we do this because bodies are decomposing. And remember, I told you, we try to rehydrate these digits and inject them. We have to let them sit up for a little while when you do this. It's not something that you inject it and then you immediately go over and roll a print off of it. Dave, did you

know that out of all of the appendages on the end of our hands, the thumb is the most robust? And I think most of us can look at it. It is the most difficult to separate from the body. Do you know what we, what I would use in order to take off? We didn't use a scalpel. I used something that you could buy at Ace Hardware. I used actually a pair of pruning shears with a hooked, you know, the hooked beak on it. And they were very sharp.

We would send it out. We had a knife sharpener that would sharpen these things for us but even as sharp as that thing was you just go up to the first knuckle and you cut it and i'm thinking knowing what i know about my involvement you know of uh doing exams in the morgue and working with forensic pathologists. I'm wondering, did they show up with something like this, with that specific intent? Or did they – because this guy, he's not a gardener. He lives in an apartment in suburban D.C.

Washington, D.C., yeah. Did they go to the knife drawer in the kitchen? Is that what they did? And then take a steak knife? Because you have to have a serrated edge to get into that joint. You got to find that. And I don't know, maybe these people are anatomical superstars. Maybe they both have PhDs in human anatomy. I don't know. My suspicion is that they don't. I think my question is, have they ever participated in an action like this before?

And the reason I'm making a big deal out of this is that contrary to what you see on television and true crime stories that are fictionalized, this is not something that happens every day. This is actually what we refer to as an outlier. That's why that whoever did this was purposed, brutal, and in the end, all they wanted was this man's money. But in the end, they got his life. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Bags. This is an iHeart Podcast.