Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Mom on a Mission - a Killer's Confession

Episode Date: March 2, 2025

Jamie Dickerson never believed her daughter, April Holt, committed suicide. Not because she is in denial, but because she knows her daughter was trying to leave her marriage and had told her husband two weeks before her death that she wants a divorce. Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack discuss the case, how 29-year-old April Holt is found unresponsive in the bathroom of the home she shares with her husband and son, with a plastic bag taped tightly around her neck. Why is her death ruled a suicide, and what does her mother do to catch the killer and see him go to trial for murder.  This episode discusses domestic abuse and suicide. If you are someone you know is living in a domestic violence situation, there is a toll free number to call:  1-800-799-3233. There is also a number if you are having thoughts of self-harm or even taking your own life, the suicide hotline and Crisis Lifeline - 988.       Transcribe Highlights 00:00.97 IntroductionNOTE - In this episode both domestic violence and suicide will be discussed  05:09.61 Victim's mother solves the crime 09:50.94 Discussion of the "finder" and the "reporter" 14:11.21 Talk about framing of a story for the police on the scene 18:58.24 How cases are classified as "final exit" case 25:00.55 Discussion of broken blood vessels in the cheek 30:20.65 Claim of "sex play" gone too far and staging the scene 35:02.96 Killer sentenced to two-years in prison 39:29.59 Sentence is a "slap in the face to victims of domestic violence" 41:03.67 Conclusion Domestic Violence Hotline [phone]                    Suicide Hotline and crisis lifeline - 988 See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Body Bags with Joseph Scott Moore. You know, there's something about the love of a mother. I'm not saying that fathers don't love their kids, but it's almost like this intuitive thing that mamas have. You know, it's amazing. A mother can look at her child and just know something is wrong. Today, we're going to talk about a case here on Body Bags that involves a mother, and not just any mother. We're talking about a mother who actually did the job of a detective and solved the murder of her very own daughter. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Bags.

Well, good to be with you again, Brother Dave. I spent some time, you know, kind of meditating on this case a bit. And I, you know, I reached back in time and was thinking about the things that my mother understands about me. And even at this stage in life, I can give her a phone call. And if there's something going on in my life, she will say before I ever say it or make reference to it, what's wrong? And there's just something I do that with Noah, too, with my son. But the relationship that Kimmy has with Noah is completely different. It's almost like a sixth sense that mamas have about things.

And that's why it's important, I think, to talk about this case today, because there are a lot of people out there that have no support system in their life. They're kind of cast adrift on this ocean of pain and misery in this journey. But even in this case goes, this case goes to how far a mother's love extends, even beyond the grave, Dave. Well, a lot of times when we have the story about a suicide, a reported suicide, oftentimes family members have a difficult time understanding what happened.

They didn't see it coming or what have you. And in this particular case, Joe, when April Holt, 29 year old woman is dies and it's ruled a suicide. Because they had one-on-one conversations that were not open discussions in front of other people. And so Mama knew that there was a lot of unhappiness in the relationship. Mama knew that April had tried to leave the marriage previously. And two weeks before, had actually told her husband, Donovan Holt, that she wanted a divorce. It was over. And so with mother having all of this information and knowing things, again, that even friends didn't know that was happening when her death was ruled a suicide, mama didn't. It wasn't just the denial. Mama had actual evidence in her heart and her head pointing to a different reason for her death. And so when the mother took her own feelings and then matched it up with the evidence,

she just couldn't get from here to there because she's not a detective. So she learned. And it was through her process of learning what detectives do, what kind of forensic evidence they need that she was able to actually put together a case for murder against Donovan Holt, a very convincing case. And even though it still took time, eventually it was the work of April Holt's mother that actually caused her death to not be ruled a suicide. In this case with April Holt and Donovan Holt, a lot of it was very nuanced in that not everybody knew what was going on in the relationship, but April Holt's mother did know. Her name is Jamie Dickerson, and she was not silent about what she knew. She was very careful, very smart lady.

And she's the reason her daughter is getting some form of justice, if that's possible. Yeah. And again, we're going to touch on that, too, because many times justice is relative. And in this case, that's a head scratcher in and of itself. We begin to kind of compartmentalize the narrative that we have learned. But I want to go back to the circumstances relative to this case, because Mama has had this case first popped off in July of 2023. And, um, you know, one of my favorite, one of my favorite lines in Shawshank Redemption is when Morgan Freeman is, uh, narrating, uh, that movie. And he says, uh, he makes reference to this idea of time and pressure.

You know, it takes time to form rocks because the protagonist in the movie, Andy, though he's an inmate, he calls himself a rock hound. He loves to look at geology and pick up stones in the prison yard. And it's about patience and understanding time and understanding the pressure. Can you imagine the pressure that a mother is under when she is, you know, kind of that lone voice in the wilderness calling out because of her deceased daughter? And she's had time to think about this.

And I'll go ahead and kind of, you know, give something away here. You know, this case involving Ms. Holt has, in fact, been adjudicated. That's one of the reasons, you know, that you and I wanted to talk about it. And it's quite amazing. There was actually an arrest affected in September of 2024. But it's all about the efforts of the mother. You know, you think about, you know, those things that go on behind closed doors. My wife talks to her mother just about every day. I think I talk to my mother, I don't know, two or three times a week.

And there's things that happen during that period of time when information is conveyed. And some of this information is stuff that parents don't want to hear necessarily. Not that they don't want to hear, but they would prefer that their child be in a happy, secure, loving relationship. That's what I was going to say, Joe. It's like, not like we don't want the truth. We just want to hear that everything's hunky-dory and you're having the time of your life. You know, that's what we want as parents. That's because that's what we want for you as our child.

But the truth is oftentimes a lot different. I'm very curious, Joe, as to a scene that when police walk into it and I've asked you about this before because I'm it's not something I've ever done. From the standpoint of police come into a scene and how much weight do they give to the person that they're talking to at the time? In this case, you have a 911 call that is made. And so you have some information from the husband, Donovan Holt. But when police are coming in and they're looking at what is in front of them, do they

immediately start making mental notes that this this doesn't really add up or seems like that could have happened? I mean, what's going on in that process until you actually get there to break it down? Because she was I don't want to get too far ahead, but she wasn't dead. She did not die right away. The victim here, April Holt, actually did live. So as we back it up and set it up that it was an apparent suicide, is that not how it was brought about by police when they got on the scene? Yeah, it was. And one of the big problems that you have with cases is the reporter, you know, that individual that we've discussed before, that role that is played at the scene regarding, you know, subjects that either find the body. And again, that's another category that we talk about, finders. You know what,

until we started doing this, that never occurred to me. Well, after you've been doing it for a while, you come up with these little names or categories. But I can hear that. Where's the finder? Where's the finder? Yeah, where's the finder? And that is in the common vernacular at the scene. Most of the time, you will hear us say things like, who's the finder or where's the finder? And then, who's the reporter?

Because they can be two different people. But as you know, when you have these intimate relationships where people are, you know, living beneath the same roof, there's high probability it's going to be an intimate, you know, like spouse. And this is no different. So back to your question, though. It is, and I would say this to anybody, those that I instruct and those in our audience that are interested in becoming investigators or perhaps forensic scientists, I can't urge you strongly enough to not believe everything you see and not to believe everything you hear.

Because you ever seen a picture of a bull with a ring in their nose? And that's, you know, so they can be led around. And unfortunately, instead of being in control of the scene, individuals, investigators, many times allow themselves to be led around by the nose, assumptions. You just assume that what you're seeing is actually a suicide or what you're being told is actually a suicide. And that is a very, very slippery intellectual slope, Dave, because once you start down that path of assuming that something is, in fact, a suicide, that scene begins to be handled completely different than, say, for instance, if it was a homicide. Because first off, the population inside of a death scene reduces dramatically if it's a homicide. If it's a suicide, you'll have,

if you go with that assumption, you'll actually have people that are coming and going out of the scene and they're not treating it in a secure manner. And that's a very dangerous position to be in because all of a sudden you lose sight of what the goal is, determining specifically what happened in a particular case. Do not predispose yourself to intellectual dishonesty, I think, and ignoring any kind of physical evidence that might be there. And I got to tell you, the physical evidence that was found at the scene of the death with Ms. Holt and also at the autopsy, but in addition to that, what Ms. Holt's mother observed is a tale that only she could tell. I was not the greatest investigator in the world.

I am quick to admit that. I think you see people in media many times that try to portray themselves as being the individuals without measure in the world of investigations and even in forensics. I was chief among sinners as far as failure goes. And one of the things, Dave, that always haunts me as now a college professor, I wonder how many I missed. I wonder how many times I predisposed myself to these wild assumptions where I ran with it and I began to be part of the narrative. You know, I'm painting the story for, for instance, the police that are there and eventually where the remains are going to be or where they're going to wind up to be examined by the forensic pathologist. Keep in mind, the forensic pathologist is not at the scene. OK, it's the investigator, the coroner investigator that's doing what my former job was.

And I wonder how many times I miss something because there's all kinds of crazy things you see in the field. And, uh, I, I think if, if I remember, if memory serves me correctly, it was the mid nineties and all of a sudden the world of death investigation opened up in many different ways, but also we had a manifestation of cases that were referred to as final exit cases, which are bizarre. It's a different type of investigation. And I got to tell you, Dave, initially what I was hearing about Ms. Holt's death really made me, you know, kind of go back in time and think about think about final exit cases. So this is something that you and I have covered a couple of times on Body Bags thus so far where something appears to be a suicide but isn't. And I think I actually you know what?

In two of them, it was police officers or a highway patrolman, somebody in law enforcement that actually staged the murder to look like a suicide. Now, in this case, we're not dealing with that. So I'm wondering when you arrive on the scene, investigators, forensic and other that you. Whereas April Holt was not dead, she actually was transported to the hospital on life support and lived for a few days, if I'm not mistaken. And I hate being wrong about that. It's just my head's a little cloudy with this right now. But when how much evidence did they lose in that process of here's she's found she's taken down?

Well, first of all, let's go back to how she was found. How what did Donovan Holt say April Holt's condition was when he found her or when his son found her? Yeah, what he's saying is that when he observed her, many times it's kind of a theatrical device. You'll see it in movies where people will take a bag, a plastic bag, and put it over an individual's head and suffocate them. But one of the reasons I was making reference to Final Exit is that Final Exit is a book that was written a couple of decades ago by a fellow who had watched his wife languish with bone cancer. And he made the decision to create a how-to guide of how to take your own life. And it's referred to as final exit. By many that are in that world, they consider it to be the ultimate authority. Painless, they don't call it suicide. They call it self-deliverance. And one of the methodologies,

and literally, Dave, the most common methodology that I came across as a death investigator was the utilization of a plastic bag to take one's own life. that an individual would take medication, put a bag over their head, and just kind of slowly drift off and go to sleep as a result of oxygen deprivation and being so knocked out by the drugs that are on board that they would not have an awareness of it. As a matter of fact, he even went so far as to talk about putting ice cubes in the bag so that you would not be rebreathing your own heated carbon dioxide. You wouldn't have an awareness of it. You're still breathing, rebreathing, you know, carbon dioxide that you've expelled, and now you're taking it up again. But he went so far to talk about ice cubes in the bag because of how uncomfortable that hot air is. So just give that a thought, if you will, for a second. So anytime I ever encountered a case with a plastic bag that was adjacent to the body or on the body automatically. And again, this is that

predisposition that I was talking about. And that's why this is so dangerous. I would automatically be thinking, well, this is, and we had a term, you know, you said, you had said that we have a term for everything. And we literally had a classification for these deaths. We call them final exit cases. And of course, afterwards, you go around the scene and, you know, look around the house to see if you could find a copy of that volume around there, you know, where an instructional volume to see if this individual had exposure to it, was reading about it or anything like that. The thing about it is, is that with most of those cases, somebody had been diagnosed with some kind of terminal event in their life and they didn't have any other choice

and they wanted a quote unquote painless way to go. And they don't, uh, I may have mentioned this, but it's, it bears repeating. They don't call it suicide. They call it self-deliverance. And so when, you know, the police are there and you've got Holt that is telling them that, yeah, when, when she's discovered this bag, there is literally a plastic bag around her neck, he begins to drop these hints that this is a suicide. And of course, he's, I think it's feigning, feigning an attempt, but he's making an attempt to save her life. And I don't know, for whatever reason, that very well may have extended her life. You know, where she goes to the hospital,

she never regains consciousness. And, you know, by that time she's been so deprived of oxygen, she's in, you know, what pilots refer to as a flat spin. You can't recover from it. Your brain can't function because it's literally been strangled of oxygen. So you're on a machine at this point in time. And that's essentially what we're looking at. And I think that, you know, most of the authorities involved in this, for whatever reason, you know, they look at this case or a case like this and I think, okay, well, we can close the books on this. This is a suicide. But again, this is where mama comes in, Dave. And she's, she's seeing things relative to her daughter and then kind of putting two and two together and trying to understand that it just doesn't make sense.

It just doesn't add up. You know, the one thing that I actually saw in this with regard to mom is that when April was found unresponsive with plastic bag taped tightly around her neck. Thanks for reminding me of that, by the way. Can I just interject? responsive with plastic bag tied tightly taped tightly around her neck tape yeah thanks for reminding me of that by the way yeah there's because that's got can i just interject please just for a second uh the idea that this bag is taped around the bottom and it's they don't describe it as being lightly taped it's like I mean, like heavily taped around the bottom. I've never encountered a case like that where someone is attempting to take their own life and they would tape the bag. It's generally done in the open. Now, I'm not saying that people couldn't do that.

What I'm merely saying, though, is that when you see that amount of tension placed, that takes some effort, you know, in order to facilitate that. I'm sorry, I stepped on you. Go ahead. No, you didn't. That's what I was going to ask you because, um, for anybody who's ever, uh, put on a costume or, you know, done something like that, taping something like that on yourself is not an easy task. Doing it to somebody else is not difficult. You know, you wrap tape around, but to do it to yourself, that's more involved than it is doing it to someone else. That's part one. Part two is that it was April's mother that actually noticed bruises because as I mentioned, April did not die in that shower stall where she was found. She was taken down from whatever position she had been placed, you know, and her mom said she noticed bruises on her neck and ankles as well as broken blood vessels on her cheeks.

Now, are those common occurrences in a suicide, self-harm, what have you, hanging? I mean, do you get bruises on your neck and ankles? No, no, not with, well, let me clarify. You don't see this with the asphyxiation with a bag because you're talking about specific pressure points that are taking place. If you're talking about, say, pressure being applied to the neck. But also, you know, April's mother had, in addition to this, she had mentioned that there were facial manifestations as well. And I found this fascinating because you don't see this a lot, that she had broken vessels on her cheeks. Now, that's a tremendous amount of pressure that would have had to have been applied for a protracted period of time. And the reason it's so profound is that most of the

time when we're talking about petechiae, we're referring to those tiny little vessels, and they're delicate, Dave. They're very, very delicate that burst in the sclera surfaces of the eyes and inside of the lids. And they're very delicate. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about, according to the mother, broken blood vessels in the cheeks, which are much more robust. So if you have that, then that's an indication that there's a tremendous amount of pressure being applied that would facilitate that, that would hold the blood in place until the tension in that vessel, in those vessels that are delivering blood supply to the face,

the structural integrity of those vessels is so compromised that they, even though they're so robust, they're going to burst. And I, you know, it's weird, Dave, with, with mama, she had this intuition about this, you know, how did she know that? You know, how did she know that about if she's kind of doing the calculus here and she's factoring in this idea of, of an asphy an asphyxial death, a homicide. Um, you know, she's taking note of this all along. And here's the thing, you know, if someone is on ICU, okay. And they're being treated by the clinical staff, this is not to

insult those people because, you know, Lord knows, uh, I've been on ICU. I wouldn't be here, uh, if it weren't for those people, because they're great at what they do, but Dave, they are not there to do a forensic assessment on anyone. They're there to save life or at least sustain life as long as they can until they pull the person back from the edge. Well, Mama's looking at this in a different light completely, and kudos to her because if she hadn't, we may not have had the conclusion in this case that we've had. Dave, you know how I mentioned that trait that mothers just seem to intuitively have, where they're going to look at things, they're going to listen, and they're going to press until they get the answers they want. It dovetails with what I just mentioned.

It's not just that they recognize something. It's that if a mother is on the scent of something that is going on with their child, they don't stop asking questions. I mean, and in this particular case, what's so amazing is that not only did mama make her own assessment of her baby girl that is now deceased, she begins to press the husband in this case. She's pressing him like she's a detective. She's actually trying to draw information out of him. And, dude, she succeeded, man. How many times have you ever heard of that? In this particular case, Joe, I was looking at it to determine, you know,

how did she go about getting this, you know, how did she go about getting this? You know, how did she go about doing it? You know, what did how did she get this info from the guy? And really, I think you're right. She's not wearing him down, but I think questioning his answers, you know, following up on what he told 9-1-1 dispatch, what he told police. You know, there's documentation on all of this. And she's looking at it going. I know my daughter was trying to leave. She had tried to leave before unsuccessfully.

And two weeks prior to this, she told him, I'm out. I'm getting a divorce. They did share a son together. And so there's a lot going into that, you know, when you make the decision to end the relationship. And her mother was aware of all this. And so Donovan Holt, the husband, he wasn't going to get by with making light of this. I mean, he had to answer questions of mom. And I think he felt like he could spin it maybe. But what he didn't realize is that while she was getting information, she I don't know her background. OK, I don't know what she assumed

going in. I know what she knew in terms of, I don't know what she assumed going in. I know what she knew in terms of the basics, you know, of her daughter wanting to leave. But we do know that 11 months after her death is ruled a suicide, that Mrs. Dickerson, Jamie Dickerson, the mother of April Holt, did a FaceTime call with the husband and got Donovan Holt in this FaceTime call. And she recorded it and got him to admit what it or I was going to say, admit what had happened, maybe tell the truth or maybe tell the full truth or a partial truth that was enough to say it was not a suicide. He actually tells Jamie Dickerson because she never believed april's death was a suicide never ever believed and he he gave her the answers he felt like would get her off his back you know that's all i could figure yeah yeah and and in in the midst of this confession, I think that it's very important.

There is a confession here that he makes to her according to her, and now this has been adjudicated. So the courts have looked at this. He actually tells April's mother that they were in the midst of having sex and he begins to choke her out as part of sex play and it went too far and as a result of it going too far he you know he he he frames it as though that he freaked out he didn't know what to do. So it's, you know, he goes and he grabs a bag, presumably, puts it over her head and tapes it up. Now, these two things are not related. I have to stress this because he eventually admits or states rather that, you know, that this was as a result of a sex act. But prior to that, he said that it was suicide and that he found her with a bag around her head. So you got a guy that's out there staging a suicide that turns out not to be a suicide.

And we're getting closer and closer to the truth with the mother, you know, kind of pressing him. And she, as a result of the pressing, says, oh, OK, yeah, well, I freaked out, you know, while we were having sex. And this is me, you know, kind of thinking about this, that the reason she's got these, you know, bruises on her, you know, on her face and around her neck is that it was sex play and that I was pressing down her, choking her and deprived her of breath.

And it was essentially, he's not admitting to a homicide here. He's trying to say that this is an accident. Of course, you know, after the mother gets this information, he actually heads out, you know, this, this took place in Tennessee. Well, he's, he's actually eventually arrested, Dave, I think in San Antonio. Right. Yeah. They lived in a suburb of Nashville and he was down towards San Antonio when, uh, Mrs. Dickerson got the FaceTime call recorded and took it to police. And that was where the Nashville or the suburb of Nashville police got in touch with the Texas authorities and they got him in. And the thing is, in the process of her actually getting the information to detectives in Tennessee, Donovan Holt realized what he had done in

that admission. And so before anybody could really get a game plan in play of based on here's the evidence here, the facts, he goes right in and admits it. He cops to it right away. OK, look, this here's what really happened. And I freaked out. It was an accident, sex play, whatever. And so he immediately became, and I don't know how this works because I'm not in that. I'm not an investigator.

I'm not a police officer. But he immediately went in and, or not immediately. This is September now of 2024. He confesses, okay, July, 2023, April Holt is, you know, ruled a suicide. June 2024, 11 months later, Donovan Holt tells Jamie Dickerson, April's mother, that she died during sex play and he freaked out and staged it. Then between the time he tells her that in June and the time of his arrest in September, he's able to concoct whatever plan of action he has, whatever story he's going to tell. And he goes to police with that statement. So they don't even have to try him. There's no trial. There's no nothing. He admits to this accidental death

during rough sex. And Joe, based on how this was adjudicated, they believed him. Yeah, they did believe him. But I think that this is just as big a story as April's death and what the mother did. Because to me, it would seem that this is a slap in the face to every victim of domestic violence that's out there. And here's why. First off, there were other injuries that upon review, you could tell that she had been being banged around for some time. She had old healing bruises over multiple surfaces of her body. So unless she had some kind of problem with equilibrium and she's bouncing off of furniture

and, uh, you know, walls and all that sort of thing, because she can't walk correctly, or she has a problem just staying in a vertical position. There's another explanation for that. But here's the thing, Dave. Dude, this guy, after admitting to the murder of his wife, hold on to your hat here, he is sentenced to only two years in prison. Two years, Dave. Two years he is sentenced to. Now, he's leaving behind, and I'd rather say the mother, April, has left behind two kids that are never going to have their mama again, uh, forever and ever. Amen. He gets out of jail by virtue of the sentence that's been handed down after two years. And then, oh, by the way, what a great burden he has to bear. He has to be on probation for eight years afterwards, but he's still walking around free.

You know, he's, he's no longer, you know, in a cell somewhere. I, I would love to try to understand what level of satisfaction, um, April's mama has over this, because I got to tell you, it's, it's gotta be absolutely heartbreaking. First off, uh, yeah, tell you, it's got to be absolutely heartbreaking. First off, yeah, I mean, it's heartbreaking first off that you're told that your child has committed suicide. And then after you do your own painstaking digging and you're going back through all of the evidence that you have borne witness to firsthand, not to mention anything that the M.E. had said. Remember, the M.E. agreed that this was a suicide as well. Now she's faced with these two, you know, essentially orphaned grandchildren and the prospect that their father, who murdered her daughter and their mother at his own hand, is now going to be

out free. That's two Christmases. That's two Thanksgivings. That's two Easters. There's something wrong with the economy of this. It just doesn't balance out, Dave. He was allowed to plead guilty to reckless homicide, tampering with evidence and false reporting. OK, those were the three main things that they got him that he pled guilty. And based on the law of the land in Tennessee and what he could be charged with pleading guilty or what he could be sentenced based on, you know, pleading guilty to reckless homicide that they went right down the line. Here's here's the sentence for that, that case. And sadly, uh, you know, all I can tell you is whenever people go through this and they immediately think I would take this into my own hands. Uh, I don't know how you process this.

Her mother is not happy. You know, that he's only going to get two years, as you mentioned, two Christmases, really? That that's all're going to get, two years in the slammer after murdering a woman who was trying to get away from you, a woman who had been putting up with abuse long enough that she had healing wounds, a woman who two weeks prior to her death, she was, you really want us to believe that she wanted to get away so bad and that two weeks before had announced to not just you, but to others that she was getting a divorce, that she was done. But then she's going to engage in a sexual encounter with you who she wants to get away

from and is going to play some kind of a sex game. You know, we have to buy into a lot of garbage here, Joe, to believe that that is what happened. But the bottom line, always the bottom line. He pled guilty to it. He was sentenced by a judge. And, uh, whether you, uh, believe it's, you know, a proper sentence or whether or not the victim here has received justice. I don't know. I don't think so. No, I don't think so either because you, you cannot. And listen, there's not enough time spent in the joint, in the world, that's going to replace April, period. She was a daughter. She's a mama.

And she would have, I'm sure, loved to have been able to live to see her kids graduate from high school. Or in their cases, junior high school, even. And then high school and then going with their lives. But she's been, she was robbed of that. The entire world was robbed of April's presence. And again, I'd like to reiterate my feelings about this because, every woman that's out there that is at the hand or was within striking distance of this person that they live with that is a victim of sexual assault, this is a slap in their face, I think, that he got away to a great degree with this.

And yeah, he's having to pay a penalty of two years and then eight years on the outside. But, you know, just think about if you are a victim of domestic violence and you're in this jurisdiction and you see this in the news, you're looking for hope. You're hoping that somebody will help you. And I would think that that would be a very lonely position to be in now, because when you see, when they see those victims out there, they see that a man can put his hands on his wife, the mother of his children, choke the life out of her, and be penalized so lightly, I would think that that would be a very, very hopeless position to be in.

Please keep this in mind. If you or any friend out there is involved in a relationship that involves domestic violence, there is, in fact, hope for you. And I can only in my small way offer this up. Here's the phone number you need to call. It's 1-800-799-7233 or go to thehotline.org. This is a toll-free call. It'll be confidential. Reach out.

Ask for help. And additionally, if you know or if you yourself are suffering with thoughts of self-harm or taking your life, there's also hope for you as well. That number is very simple, and here you go. It's 988. It's that simple. 988. That's the suicide and crisis lifeline. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Back.