Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Pink Clues on Board

Episode Date: March 9, 2025

Joseph Donohue's son can't get in touch with the Boston attorney and after two days failing to connect, reaches out to police asking for a welfare check. When Police arrive at the yacht in Boston Harbor, they can see a woman inside running around. When she finally answers the door, the 24-year-old Nora Nelson lies to police - giving them a false name and telling them Donohue was at a "Strip Club". Nelson tries to keep the officers from entering the houseboat but they are insistent, and once inside they find the body of the attorney wrapped in a rug with weights tied to his hands, broken pink fingernails embedded in his chest.  Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack break down the forensic evidence that will be used in court and get into the background of the case of a 65-year-old Attorney dead on his houseboat and the 24-year-old woman with warrants in other states who lies to police from the beginning.     Transcript Highlights00:04.29  Introduction  02:01.09 Living and sleeping on a houseboat 04:49.17 Son calls police asking for a "welfare check" of his father 10:36.80 Female on the boat lies to police 15:01.19 Victim had two dogs living with him 20:11.93 Nora claims blood on boat was from her "period" 25:37.41 What do police do when they find what appears to be a body wrapped in carpet? 30:22.56 Going through crime scene photos prior to trial  35:13.75 Explaining bone density of skull in different places 40:20.98 Looking for "defects" in the skull 44:09.96 Matching the blade of knife with tip part broken off 46:15.65 ConclusionSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Body Facts with Joseph Scott Moore. I don't know if this happens to everyone. And speaking as a man, I would like to think that maybe a couple of my male brethren out there have had the same thought. That at some point in time when you're single in your life, you envision yourself as living perhaps in a cabin somewhere by yourself, having to live off the land, or maybe, just maybe, you're traveling around the world by yourself, just drinking things in and absorbing things. Or maybe something that I know that a lot of my friends have thought about doing, living on a boat. Now, I own a boat now, and it's certainly not a boat you could live on.

It's just an old pontoon. I enjoy the peace of the water, but I've often wondered, what would it be like even if the boat is moored in a harbor or maybe somewhere in a boat slip and every night you go to sleep to the sound of lapping outside of your window or maybe the boat is gently rocking and it might get to the point where you can't sleep anywhere else because it's almost like being cradled. You're sequestered. It's quiet. It's peaceful. Today, I want to talk about a fellow who lived that life. He was in his 60s, successful attorney in the Boston area, and he lived with his dogs. But there was something or someone who visited him that as it turned out,

they were nothing but pure evil. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags. Dave, you ever been in a position, I know I have, where you have unexpected company that shows up at the house and you run around the house like a madman. Maybe the dogs start barking and you look out the window and you see a car pull up in the driveway and you've got, I don't know, dirty clothes laying about. You've got unwashed dishes sitting about and you're running about and you're trying to get the place straightened up because you don't know who it is. Or maybe it's a close friend that didn't call in advance. I hate the drop-in visits, by the way. And you're trying to pick up while they're trying to get there. Has that ever happened to you?

I know it's happened to me any number of times. Every time anybody comes to my house. Yes. Every time. And it's usually the dogs. Yeah, because I'm dealing with that. I'm dealing with it. Yeah.

Every time. It's like you say you hate drop-ins. You know how I am. I am. Like I live a pretty not hermit-like lifestyle because I don't live in a cave. But, you know, kind of like that. I always wanted to live down a long and I mean like two or three mile long dirt road trees on the sides that kind of created a tunnel. And at the very end of it was just a wall.

And I had a secret entrance that went into an underground cave. You know, that was what I wanted. So, yeah, I understand what it's like is whenever you show up at my house, you're going to hear clattering. You're going to hear stuff getting thrown into McGee's closet. It's crazy. It's crazy time. And that's what I envisioned. When you know what?

Twenty four year old son doesn't hear from his dad for a couple of days. And he picks up the phone and calls police. Hey, I have a close relationship with my dad. He's a high flying attorney. Everybody knows who he is. Would you mind going and checking on Joe Donahue? He lives in his houseboat. It's more than the marina.

Just go check on him. I can't get him on the phone. And that's what happened when police showed up. There's this 24 year old young woman and she Nora Nelson. She's running all over the place. And police see that it is. I mean, I don't know what your background is with large boats, yachts in a marina. I don't know if you're aware.

I've been on them. I've never lived on one. Yeah, I can't imagine. But they can tell what's going on inside something like that. They can hear. They can see you running back and forth because there are windows. And they saw that. They knew something was going on inside.

And when she opens the door, she won't let him in. Yeah. And this is the, you know, the, and unfortunately we've had to mention this before. This is the, the infamous welfare check that, that takes place. As you had mentioned the victim in this case, son, who, you know, you get the impression they had pretty frequent contact, hadn't heard from his daddy. And so he wants to send the local constabulary out there to check. And when they get there, you've got this woman that's running about the boat. And, you know, the thing about it is when you're in law enforcement, it's not like you live with these people.

It's not like you know these people. For all you know, she's domiciled there as well. That's a working assumption. They're not going to know whether or not this 20, this woman that's in her mid 20s is living on the boat with this gentleman that is north of 60. Maybe they do have some kind of arrangement like that. You know, if the son had been there, the son might have said, who is this person? Why are they there? But, you know, the police are having to go from from the perspective of, well, she's supposed to be there. And to make matters worse, if I'm not mistaken, as it turned out. Now, her name is Nora.

Nora Nelson. As it turns out, she misidentified herself. And and say misidentified implies that you have made a mistake. And I hate it when people use the term. Well, it was a mistake. You know, many people out there say I made a mistake. And it's like, no, you didn't make a mistake. You intentionally did this. You lied.

You lied. They don't know the word. They don't understand the meaning of make a mistake. You intentionally did this. You lied. You lied. They don't know the word. They don't understand the meaning of the word mistake. Yeah. And that happens in life throughout. But, you know, what police know is that if you lie to them about your name, if you give them a name that is anything other than your own, chances are there's a reason for it. And in this case, Nora Nelson, she has arrest warrants out for her, you know, and so they actually picked her up on another charge before they charged her with what

we're going to talk about today. It's a crazy way to start things off. But when police show up to do a welfare check and there's somebody that's not letting them in the door. Yeah, that's going to be just a tad of a problem, especially you got a 65 year old attorney. You've got a 24 year old former ballerina greeting you at the door. And lo and behold, it looks like some of her pink fingernails are ripped out of her hand. So they've got a lot going on in a very small area, Joe. But police did get inside and they went, you know, you've talked about shotgun houses and things like that. Whenever I picture getting on a yacht and I don't know because I've actually never been on a yacht. I've seen them on TV, but that's about it.

But I'm going to go out and get into the galley area or a door. And I'm going to guess that you're going to be able to see from one end of the boat to the other. Yeah, most of the time you can, unless it's one of these gigantic things that has a central hallway that has little, you know, hallways that run off of it. But if that's what you're thinking about, that would be a massive, you know, vessel. In this case, it's not. It's a sailboat this guy lives on. And so it's not, I mean, I'm sure that it's not a bad place to live. I'm sure it's quite nice, but it's not like a super yacht.

You know, it's not like this thing that, I think it was Bezos that, I don't know if you remember the story, it blew my mind. The boat that he had commissioned. Did you hear this? The boat that he had commissioned was actually so large they couldn't get it out of the mooring area. They were going to have to disassemble an ancient bridge in the in the location that this thing. It wasn't like that. All right.

We're not talking about the QE2 here. What do you give to the man who has everything? A boat that has to be disassembled for delivery. Hey, can Amazon deliver this? Let's find out. Yeah. It's like building a submarine in a swimming pool. You know, I don't know how much good it's going to do you, but hey, you got a submarine. But yeah. And here's another thing also that, again, you don't go into an environment like this as a police officer. And I like to show the love to uniformed police officers in particular because I teach them. And when I teach them at the academy, those kids that are just entering into the world of law enforcement, I tell them that you might not perceive yourself as an investigator, but you truly are. As a matter of fact, you're first and foremost among all investigators because you're the initial point

of contact. And that information that you glean from any witnesses or potential suspects at the scene is very important to what other people are going to do, whether it's the forensics people or whether it's a homicide detective or burglary detective or whatever, because most of us don't show up, you know, sometimes for an hour after the initial event has occurred. So that bit of information that comes into them at that moment is crucial. And here's a nugget about this case, Dave, that is kind of interesting. When she, Nora, after she had given the false name and misidentified herself or intentionally misidentified herself.

I'm stumbling over my words here. She told them when asked, you know, she's like, they're like, well, where is he? And she says, oh, he's at a strip club. Okay. Now I'm not saying that 65 year old guys don't go to strip club. Okay. Now, I'm not saying that 65-year-old guys don't go to strip clubs. Okay. But out of all of the choices in the world, you know, he hadn't gone down to Whole Foods. He hadn't gone down to a local coffee shop.

You know, he wasn't out eating lunch with a buddy from work. No, he had gone to a strip club. So, that's your default position here? You're going to tell us that he's gone to a strip club. So that's your default position here. You're going to tell us that he's gone to a strip club because, you know, let's, let's think about it. If you're truly planning something out, are you, why in the world would you send, why in the world would you put the police on the scent of sending him to a strip club that is arguably one of the most observed locations that could possibly, uh, any person could land at. Because not only do you have dancers there, you've got waiters, waitresses rather. You've also got the guys that are running the place, the DJs, all of those sorts of people, the managers.

Oh, and by the way, you've got CCTV. So he's gone to a strip club. That's what you're telling us. And so when you combine that bit of information that seems obviously kind of sketchy up front, when you don't give them an actual name and you're running around like a chicken with their head cut off and, oh, by the way, your pink, probably acrylic nails that are not actually yours are cracked off from the beginning. Those initial point of contact investigators, they're going to know something ain't right. Dave, I got a bit of sad news. You know, my family are dog lovers.

And just like you, I don't go after purebreds. I love rescues because I feel like the world is full of them and they need love. That's kind of been our motto in the Morgan household for years and years. And just yesterday, as we're speaking right now, our 18-year-old, and I got that, that's accurate. He's 18 years old. Kimmy, my wife, is probably the best dog mama that has ever walked the face of the planet. She can keep these dogs alive forever. I've got another one that is almost 19 at home right now, a Wheaton Terrier. But anyway, our 18-year-old rat terrier, mixed chihuahua. He died of liver failure yesterday. Oh, man. And it has just absolutely broken our hearts. And his name was Otis.

My son named him when Noah was, let's see, I guess Noah was seven when he named him, seven or six, I can't remember. And Noah's graduated from college in just a couple of months. So that gives you an idea. Kim says Otis has traveled more than most people have traveled because we take our dogs with us everywhere. I think we tallied, he'd been to like 13 or 14 states or something like that. It was pretty amazing. But other than the fact that Otis has passed on as a result of liver failure, Otis was probably the best alarm system that we have ever had. I mean, that dog, he would set your hair on the end because it was so loud and so obnoxious anytime he heard anything. And he was one of these animals that was constantly on alert. Now, you know, our Wheaton Terrier would just lay on the bed, just lay on his bed, and he

might hear something coming up the walkway or hear a door slam outside. Otis seems like he would start barking in advance, you know, two blocks in advance of the person pulling up in the driveway. And the really sad thing here, Dave, relative to our case today, is the fact that Mr. Donahue, he had two little dogs that lived with him. And those were his constant companions. And, you know, when you're an investigator and you're at a scene, one of the things that you notice, you will look around a home and you will see, you'll see evidence of a life lived. I like to say that, you know, it's something that's left behind, dog bowls. And that includes what they're eating, water bowls, or if there's a water dispenser, maybe a food dispenser.

You also look for toys. You look for beds. You might even look for disruptions in furniture. And you would certainly look if the dogs shed hair. You could see. I can't tell you how many times I've sat in a home with somebody just doing an interview and I get up and invariably I'd be covered with pet hair, you know, on my, on my pants or my shirt. So it's an, it's, uh, it's evidence of

a life lived and we all, you know, live a particular way in our homes. But Dave, am I correct in saying that the dogs were not, or at least one of the dogs was not present? Is that accurate? Yep. One was, we don't actually know everything there is to know because they haven't released it. But one of the dogs was missing. They did find the dog. And we didn't even tell you guys what we actually found when they looked down the hallway, when police finally got into the houseboat, you know,

because Nora Nelson greets them at the door and won't let them in. And they finally, you know, that's where she comes up with, oh, yeah, he's at strip club. Go check him out there. And they're not buying. They're not buying what she's selling. So they make their way in. And it doesn't take long for them to go in and find the victim, 65-year-old Joseph Donahue. They find his body.

It's in between his bedroom and a patio near a sliding glass door. There's only one dog, and they know that he has two. They've been told this because his son is the one that said he's divorced. He has three adult children. He lives there by himself with two dogs. That was the info that police had when they got there. So they're greeted at the door by a young woman, probably not the most uncommon thing to a guy in his mid-60s of wealth on a houseboat. But they only find one dog and they find Mr. Donahue and he's not having dinner. He is in what you call the supine position. Yeah. Yeah. And he is assumed room temperature. Yeah. Face up. Yeah. And, you know, and the question would be, I would think that if you were a police officer, it's one thing to walk in and find a 65-year-old that has passed on. There are some reasonable explanations for that. respect his person, there's been a bloodletting, Dave, the likes of which that it's hard to

describe, you know, how viciously this man had been killed on this boat, you know, and I'm not a fan of small spaces. It's not my thing. That's why I have a pontoon boat as opposed to some kind of closed boat that's got a cuddy cabin and all that sort of thing. I like it open. I don't, you know, it's just part of who I am. I'm agoraphobic. I don't like people, you know, squeezing in on me.

And can you imagine having somebody that is all indications at this point is wielding a sharp instrument? Where are you going to go, you know, in that tight space like that? And she's 24, 25. She's half his age. Less. Yeah. Even He's 40 years younger than he is, Joe. 40 years younger than him. And hell is unleashed on this fellow. And, you know, where is he going to go? If she gets you backed into a corner and she's swinging a knife at you, which we believe is what happened, there's not too many locations that you can retreat to to get yourself clear out of the situation. And I want to go into his injuries that we know of so far. But before you do that, Joe, they saw blood.

Police saw a lot of blood. And you go back to the confined area. There's just not so many places it can go. But when police saw the blood, where did this come from? You know, you got to explain all these things. If you're going to claim to have an innocent reason for being there, then you better have an innocent reason for all this blood that police are seeing. Do you know what Nora Nelson told police? She was on her period.

Other than the fact that her name was Casey as opposed to Nora? Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, at that point, she lied to'm sorry. Yeah. At that point. Yeah. At that point, she had not. She told she lied to them to start. Now, my name's Casey and he's at a strip club and all this blood you see right here. That's from I had my period and had an accident. That's what she told them. Yeah. Now, I don't know any cop that would say, oh, that explains all the blood. We don't need to look for a missing man anymore. Have a great day. We'll go to the strip club and check out that story, Casey. Right, right. That didn't happen. Where's the other dog, by the way? Yeah. And that's, you know, as horrible as it is to think about, you know, the brutality that this man endured at her hand, allegedly, you begin to think about, well, the other

evidence that the son has presented to the police, at least verbally, per the welfare check request, is that he does have these two animals. And we know that at least one is missing. And Dave, you know, we come to find out, of course, that, you know, this is actually, if you're not familiar with Boston, which Boston, by the way, is one of my favorite towns in the U.S. I love it. It's the only town that is the size that it is that feels like you're in a small town. I know that sounds crazy, but it's like, I think it's the age of it and the way they've taken care of the town, respected the history of it, that it's like a collection of little villages and neighborhoods and that sort of thing. I always enjoy going to Boston.

Now, when you're looking in Boston Harbor, so all of our American history that includes a lot of Boston and the harbor. So they've actually I have never been to Boston, just so you know. And up until this conversation, I didn't even think about how cool it would be to see that. I always think of Fenway Park and the Green Monster and the history there. But you're talking about like you can all of our American history that has a touch, even Ben Franklin in Boston. You know, you've got him learning and you have all of the other things of our American history and it's still there. I mean, they actually have kept it alive like Philadelphia did with Liberty Bell. They've done the same thing there in Boston

with keeping everything intact. Yeah. As a matter of fact, it's even more so for me, it is at least with Boston. You know, when you you walk down the streets and, you know, you go to the area in particular, I'm thinking about Paul Revere's home, which is actually in Little Italy. Really? Yeah, I actually attended. We visited, we actually visited Paul Revere's home and then walked up the street and there is a little Italian Catholic church that we went in and went into mass. And the locals were speaking Italian to one another. It has a charm to it. And a little Italy kind of evolved over that area that where Paul Revere lived. And Paul Revere's home is certainly

something to see as well. But you get a taste of that everywhere you go. And how much more so if you're an attorney like this gentleman that had lived there for years and years, you know, you're kind of part of that history, you know, in there and you're working downtown, maybe at a firm and everywhere you go, you just drink it in and you see it, you know. So it's an incredible place. And where his boat was moored is actually Charlestown. And it's one of the oldest sections. And it's a desirable area, you know, to be in. So when you're talking about working what seemingly for the police is a brutal homicide that is located right there in what's referred to as Charlestown Harbor. It's pretty striking when you think about what the police are thinking, because this is not the type of event that you expect to happen there. Okay, now you can go to certain areas, and I'm not going to name them, but there are certain neighborhoods, you know, just like every city does where, you know, you're going to expect a certain level of violent crime and maybe a certain level of brutality.

But to have it at this point, because first off, if you're living on a boat that's moored in Charlestown like this, financially, you're in a slouch. OK, Boston's an expensive place to live. And so you're living in this area that doesn't know crime like this, Dave. And now you've got someone that is there, this president that is obviously trying to deceive you, according to the police, allegedly. And then you begin to try to understand the level of brutality that you're talking about here. Joe, when they get there and they see what appears to be a body and it's, you know, they

don't get a clear shot at the body because he's wrapped up in something. Do police on the scene, when they show up and they see blood and they see what they can only assume is a victim who is rolled up in a carpet and it appears that it's been duct taped and there are some weights tied to the hands. I mean, what are they going to do? Are they going to just cut it all open right there and unroll it and see what they've got? Boy, that's a fantastic question. As a forensic scientist, you can imagine what our preference would be.

If you suspect that it's a body and it's wrapped, please don't touch it. Look, don't touch, right? Yeah, look, don't touch. But, you know, conversely, the police will say, well, there's no way that we can confirm that it is a body. Now, in this case, think that you could because, you know, you're talking about the hands are obviously visible and they have been weighted. And specifically with what we don't really know at this point in time, more information is going to be released, but they've been taped. Now, just imagine the effort that has to go through that. So, yeah, you would initially, there are places that will, in fact, open up this's no, I don't care what kind of covering you put over body. There's going to be blood outside of that area.

The fact that she would blame this on her menses is just, yeah, it's as, you know, it's as crazy as him. It's crazier than him being at the strip club. That that volume of blood that you're talking about that they would have borne witness to would have been explained that way. And listen, there's part of you as an investigator, and certainly if you want to begin to work this case in an effective manner, you want to have as much information as you can from Jump Street right then and there. So, you know, out comes a knife, perhaps, you know, that you see police officers have knives that's clipped to their belt or clipped in their pocket.

And they begin to slice open the bag or cut open anything that's holding the bag together. And they want to peer inside and see what they're dealing with. But my Lord, Dave, when they finally got a view of what was happening inside of that bag and what someone had tried to shield them from by covering this gentleman, they didn't know what to make of it. All they knew is that this was a complete and total horror show. I may have mentioned this before, Dave. I have never been, I guess I just don't have the patience for it. You would think that being a forensics guy and looking at the minutia that we have to deal with, I'd be a fan of jigsaw puzzles. I never have been.

It's tedious to me for some reason. You begin to think about putting together or trying to reconstruct problems at scenes. But, you know, there was a bit of a puzzle that was left behind at the death scene of Mr. Donahue here on his boat. And here it is. It's actually the murder weapon. When an examination was conducted of this gentleman's body, Dave, and just let me let this sink in just for a second. When the examination was done of his body,

this gentleman had been stabbed so hard with a knife that in his skull, the knife tip had broken off. It had actually fractured. This is, you know, I think that people don't take me seriously when I talk about doing head-to-toe x-rays on bodies. They think that it's only something that should be done in extreme cases. I'm a big proponent of x-raying every single body that comes through the morgue. Because, you know, there's certain things that we can show you a picture of, we could potentially, and run the risk in court that because the gruesome nature of it is going to be dismissed or they're going to exclude it. Because you have to go through all of the pictures. Did you know this? You have to go through all of the crime scene photos many times in pretrial motion.

And they're going to decide what will be admitted and what will not be admitted. And most of the time, the defense is going to argue with crime scene photos and autopsy photos. They'll say that, well, it's, you know, it's prejudicial because it's so gruesome. It's going to, you know, they think that the jury is going to want, you know, their pound of flesh for it. I never understood that. It seems to me like if I've got a picture of the crime scene, then if it's too prejudicial, maybe your guy shouldn't have done it, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

That's, I think that a reasonable person would say that, but, you know, for a defense attorney out there, they're trying everything they can to knock holes in the case of the prosecution. And, you know, they'll say, well, the prosecution has this entire array of scientific experts and technology and all these things. They, you know, they're going to say, well, we want the prosecution to do this absent all of the gruesome things that obviously took place at the scene. But yet, you know, the defendant who is being accused is probably responsible for it. Now, they're innocent until proven guilty, but they're going to argue that. And I've had it happen any number of times, you know, in cases I've been involved in. But, you know, the one thing that they can't argue with is that radio opaque image of, if you'll just think in your mind, if anyone in the

audience has ever seen this, or maybe you've seen this before, Dave, a kind of jagged triangular shaped tip of a blade on an x-ray. There's no blood with that. You might see a fracture line, but there's nothing necessarily grotesque about that. But it's indicative of a tremendous amount of force because most people understand the thickness of their skull, some more than others. And they understand what it would take to drive a steel blade into a surface and then snap it off at that point and leaving it behind. If you're the defense, this ballerina, you really think she could stick that knife into that head and break it off? She's dainty. She's a ballerina she could never do this you rely i mean because it is going to take a lot of force joe and granted

i'm being funny there when i say because i have been around ballerinas and believe me they're not weaklings to be a ballerina you've got to be strong yeah there's not an ounce of fat on you it's all muscle they're very strong daughter and My daughter was in ballet for a long, long time. Look, I tricked everybody. I took ballet when I was in high school. I was the only actual, only heterosexual guy in the class. Wow. And a lot of girls my age. Yeah. I picked the right time and the right place to be that guy. Believe me. There you go. That's the reason you glide so easily across the floor. I've seen you think about it when you've got that knife though breaking off i mean that's going to take some force so i'm thinking if i've got somebody i

can paint as dainty i'm going to get the jury looking at me like you're right how could because my head you're not going to be able to get it in there very easy but if you've ever got an axe stuck into a log of wood or a knife if you're trying to do some camping like that and you're trying to get some you know how easy it is to get one of those things stuck but into a head how difficult is it joe well let me let me kind of lay this out to you because this goes to this goes further to um how how much trauma mr donahue had sustained, Dave, because I think that, you know, that the knife to the skull was, you know, the coup de grace, if you will, that that's going to be the final act in this. What had happened prior to this is that police are describing the injuries

that he had, sharp force injuries. They are describing them in terms of dozens. So even steel weakens over a period of time. So if this blade is being utilized and being stuck into this gentleman's body over and over and over again, it's going to weaken at some point in time. The structural, as they say, the structural integrity of this thing is going to begin to break down. So when you finally get to a bone that is as robust as what's referred to as the external table of the skull. If you just tap on the top of your head, that bone in that particular area, if it's the top of the head, is rather robust and thick. As opposed to, you know, if you think forward of your ear, everybody talks about how dangerous and thin the temporal bone is. And it is.

It's very thin. But on top, that bone is very robust. So if this knife is being struck over and over and over again into his remains or into his body, when you finally drive that knife into his skull and that tip breaks off, it should not necessarily be unexpected. And then perhaps, and I have no way of knowing this, she stopped at that point in time. Allegedly, there's no way of knowing sequencing. However, you could go back. This is kind of an interesting point. You can go back and you take a look at the totality of all of these injuries, and each one of

them would have to be closely examined. And I hope that they did that in this case, and I suspect that they probably did. The Boston ME is really good. Did you know that the nature of those injuries being generated by this blade, their appearance will actually change. If, in fact, that knife tip has broken off, has been left behind in the skull, and then she continues to rage with this blade on his body, the external appearance of the injuries can change. And that would be a real puzzle as well because you begin to look at them. And because you've got a jagged leading edge where that blade has broken off, you can actually see the injury itself as looking irregular. Now, I always describe to my students that with a single, we're not talking

about a dagger, we're talking about a single edge weapon, it almost looks like a winking eye. So if you think about the back or the, you know, the robust unsharpened side of the blade, that's kind of like the inner corner of an eye, okay, when you're looking at it from above. The outer edge of the injury is going to look like the outer side of your eye. It comes to a finer point. And so I often describe to my students that it looks like a winking eye. You know, the nature of that can change slightly.

You can have a little abraded area if the blade is kind of jagged and broken off at that point in time. So, that would be very interesting. And I got to tell you, when this case finally does come to trial, that's going to be one of the questions that the medical examiner is going to be asked while they're on the stand, Dave. You know, you mentioned the knife and it being broken off and trying to determine, you know, was that the last knife wound? Well, they found, you know, we mentioned how he had two dogs. Yes. One dog was missing.

They did find that dog in the harbor, dead, floating. And they did find the rest of the knife that they believe they believe you know now it was interesting when they said they believe they found the rest of the murder weapon is because well they have a knife they found in the harbor and then they have a piece of the knife stuck in the guy's head and they can match the two of them up so it's not a big leap to say this is not the ginsu knife that was used in a TV commercial and then discarded, you know. And I'm thinking, did they look at those? Because you're talking dozens of injuries to the chest, neck, head. Did they do all that there on the boat?

Did they start looking at those injuries there? Or was it because they had to get him out from that cocoon of rug, duct tape, and weights on his hand. You know, being, it said weights affixed to his body. Because she, the person who did this murder was trying to roll the body up, tape it up, put weights on it, and stick it in the harbor with the dog. And that's all you can think of and didn't get that far. Now, if the question you're asking me, did they begin to look at the skull and they said, oh, my God, you know, there's a blade or something sticking out. You might could appreciate that. I'll tell you this very quickly.

I've actually cut my hand while examining while examining human remains. I've nicked my hand on a broken blade before, but more frequently, I have cut my hand on human bone if there are horrible fractures to the skull. So, as you're palpating the external table, and that's what it's referred to as a fancy term for saying you're examining with your hands, you're examining the surface of the skull. You're trying to appreciate if there are any fractures and if there are, if there are any defects, which we've talked about before on body bags, which are generally holes. It's a fancy term for hole. We use it with knife defects and we use it with gunshot wounds as well. And there are other things, puncture wounds, that sort of thing we'll call defects. But you're going to run your hand over that area, and there's a chance that you can find this fractured area and you could feel it.

Now, would they have attempted to match this up? No, not at the scene. As a matter of fact, they're going to feverishly be looking for that knife. Now, they will, you know, no pun intended here, but nautical term here, they will search that boat from stem to stern. And if they can't find the knife there, what's your next choice? Well, you can call the dive team and God bless us guys, because it's not a job I would want particularly there in that particular harbor. You're not talking to, it's not like you're in St. Croix. Okay. You're talking about a muddy, silty bottom.

You can't see, you can't see your hand in front of your face. So a lot of, you know, a lot of what is done by these divers, which, you know, there is an entire specialty within forensic science that is called underwater crime scene processing. You do with your hands, you literally kind of crawl along the silty bottom and you're feeling all along to see what you can feel. Now, here's the other thing. The assumption is, is that moored in the same harbor area, the marina, if you will, there are other people living there, right? Okay.

And we all know what human beings generate as they're living in a particular area. It's garbage. And it's nothing to have somebody take something and just throw it over. How many other knives are out there? How many other utensils are out there? Are there guns out there? I don't know. Maybe there are.

I wouldn't think guns as opposed to utensils. But there's all kinds of stuff you're going to be putting your hands on, you know, as you're kind of climbing along or crawling along the bottom of this murky bottom. The fact that they found this thing is amazing. But you know what's more amazing to me? And Dave, I don't know that in any of the cases that we've covered, I've ever heard this, and you actually brought this out to me. And thank you for telling me about this, because this is if you if you want. Friends, if you want to get an idea how violent this event was. Tell me again, Dave, what were the color of those fingernails? Pink, long fingernails.

And you brought this out to me, Dave. Her fingernail had broken off in Mr. Donahue's chest. So we're not talking about an individual that is merely striking him with a knife. We're talking about potentially a subject that is driving her fingernails into this man as he is being attacked so much to the point where the nail itself snaps off. You know, I was tempted just a moment ago when you were you know, with the tip, the discovered, which is easily done. And that would have been done. That would go to actually the tool mark section at the state crime lab. They will take the actual knife section at the state crime lab.

And the tool mark examiner will actually marry those things up and look at the fracture line along that. And they spend a lot of time looking at fracture lines, believe it or not. That's one of the things. It's a tedious job. I couldn't do it. But they're really good at it. But, Dave, we're talking about a fingernail here. I wonder when they retrieved this thing at the scene or at the morgue that was embedded in

his chest, how good of photographs they would have taken of her hands. Because any police department worth their salt, one of the things that you do with suspected perpetrators, and she is a suspect. It's my understanding, Dave, that she has, in fact, been charged with Mr. Donahue's homicide. And I think that you had mentioned- Yeah, she's been charged with first-degree murder. Okay.

And she pleaded not guilty. Okay. She entered a plea of not guilty. So I, my question is when they got her back to headquarters, which they would have, because they're going to try to get a statement from her. Um, one of the things that is always done, you'll see this on TV and shows that kind of, you know, they'll tangentially talk about it every now and then. Did they take photographs of her hands? And I'm not talking about like at a distance. I'm talking about lay your hands flat on the table. We're going to take a superior photograph of your hand. And then they would zoom in on that nail and they would put a scale with it to a little measuring device that would give you an idea of the size of her finger. And then this bit of nail that was recovered, because I've had broken nails before, not me personally, but I've worked cases where individuals have broken off nails, but I don't ever recall something that's kind of over the top like this, where you've got this

pink color. She's driving her fingernails into the body, allegedly, and they're snapping off, which takes some amount of force if they're actually being fractured and snapped off at that point in time. I'm wondering what are the kind of injuries she had on her. I'm also wondering what are the kind of injuries Mr. Donahue had on him? Did he have defensive wounds? Because they described this in the dozens, Dave. They described this in the dozens. So are we talking about dozens of stab wounds and cuts or sharp force injuries where he was trying to block with his arm? Does he have other scratches on his body?

Did he have scratches on his face where she's trying to rake his eyes in some way to inflict as much damage as she possibly can. Forensically, this case is very, very rich. There's so much to kind of delve into. When you combine the trauma that Mr. Donahue sustained, the fractured knife, the deposition of blood, the coverings that are used to try to wrap his body, these weights that were taped to his hands, and of course, the remains of this little dog and how that little dog died. This is an evidence-rich case. And forensics is going to tell the tale. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Packs.

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