Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Sins of the Father - The Death of Dylan Redwine

Episode Date: February 2, 2025

Dylan Redwine is forced to spend Thanksgiving with his father in Colorado. He doesn't want to be there because he knows some things about his father, secret, disgusting things, and he just doesn't want to be around him. But due to his parent divorce he has to go. Dylan Redwine goes missing, his dad suggests a bear might have got him. It takes time, but in the end, Forensics will tell the entire story of what happened to Dylan Redwine.Join Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack as they break down a story that took years to finish and includes blood, sex, knives, and bones.          Time Code Highlights. 00:01:40 Redwine Murder was one of the first Joseph Scott Morgan covered in media 00:04:00 Dylan must go to his father’s house in Colorado for Thanksgiving   00:05:08 Mark Redwine house burned down previously 00:07:03 Discussion of children of divorce, Dylan did not want to be with his father 00:08:20 Talk about pictures Dylan and his brother saw on their dad’s computer 00:09:30 Joe talks the information he was given to cover story on network show 00:11:03 Pictures of Mark Redwine in lingerie, makeup, eating out of diaper 00:13:09 Joe tells story of being embarrassed comparing it to how Mark Redwine was embarrassed his children found out about secret pictures 00:15:00 Discussion about the boys confronting their father over his pictures 00:16:50 Talk about Mark Redwine responding to Corey about the pictures 00:19:25 Joe talks about Mark Redwine being humiliated and angry 00:20:45 Redwine claims he went to store, Dylan was gone when he got back 00:21:35 Discussion about Corey Redwine being several years older than Dylan 00:22:45 Talk about forensics and how nothing is ever hidden 00:24:04 Joe talks about a dog finding blood in the home 00:26:05 Blood from Dylan would have to have been from recent visit 00:30:04 Joe talks about a murder case without a body 00:31:00 Both femurs of Dylan Redwine found 8 miles from Mark Redwine home 00:32:43 Bones found on a road could have been drug by an animal 00:34:14 Determining whether the bones were separated by human using tools 00:36:05 Talk about Mark Redwine mentioning something to a friend about blunt force trauma and they would need to find his head 00:37:45 Dylan Redwine skull found 00:39:00 No animals in the area that would drag remains up the mountain 00:40:10 Talk about surface deposition 00:41:05 Mark Redwine said Dylan may have been attacked by a bear.   00:43:50 What the skull tells investigators. Took several months to identify 00:45:12 Joe explains using sinus for identification 00:46:45 Skull fractures show blunt force trauma. Two linear marks consistent with a knife blade found on skull. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. To lose someone whom you love is one of the toughest things that a human being will ever endure. I know that for a fact because I've had loved ones that have passed on. And I've also been present when I have had to tell people that their loved ones have passed on and I've also been present when I have had to tell people that their loved ones have passed on but you know some say that next to a death of a

loved one that a divorce is one of the most brutal things a human being can go through. You tie a lot of emotion up in it because you see perhaps a failure. You see an end to things that you thought had great possibilities. And there it just crumbles right before you. And of course, the really sad part is not necessarily going your own way from the person that you thought you were going to spend the rest of your life with. But if you have children, they're left in the wake many times to be battered up against the metaphorical rocks of life. Today we're going to talk about one such child. And this case is special to me because it's a case that I covered early on in my media career and it impacted me,

I think, probably like no other. Today, we're going to talk about the murder of Dylan Redwine. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags. is body bags. Dave, you know, when you're a little boy, and you and I used to be little boys, we spent our time playing and having adventures, getting together with our friends, tossing a ball around. Some of the coolest times that you can experience. But I know that for myself, I am a child of divorce.

And you pay a price for it, don't you? I mean, it's not just mom and dad that might pay a price. You know, us kids that have been through it pay a price as well. And sometimes those, those things go unseen for years and years and they sometimes manifest themselves later on in life. It's interesting how most children that grow up in a nuclear home where divorce is not present, just have mom, dad, and the kids. And all the children have different stories to tell about their own upbringing based on the, uh, when they were born, whether they're first born, middle, last. And it's the same thing happens when, uh, if you're a child of divorce, except now you extend it out because whereas in a, uh, a family that is just mom, dad, and the kids, they argue about the attention they got or mom loved you more. Dad loved, liked you more of that

whole thing. Well, now it's expanded because now you've got mom and dad plus oftentimes their extended spouses and other half brothers and half sisters that it becomes a big fray and some kids have a way of maneuvering through it better than others yeah yeah i'd agree you you and it's like a race you're you're jockeying for i never know what validation actually means people use that term all the time i never really know what it is oh, you're jockeying for, I never know what validation actually means. People use that term all the time. I never really know what it is, but you're jockeying. Approval. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I've always thought of that. We all, we all want to approval. We want it from our, we want it from our mom and dad first and foremost. And the fact, you know what? I, I wondered Joe in this particular case, because I've covered it too, when it first began as a missing person, what happened to this 13-year-old kid? A 13-year-old boy, Dylan Redwine, goes to visit his dad. Now, his mom and dad were divorced, and Dylan did not want to go. That was made pretty

public fairly early in this whole case, but it was Thanksgiving. He had to go there to be with his dad for Thanksgiving. It was court ordered. So Dylan Redwine went here. He arrives at the airport in Colorado. Dad picks him up. We have CCTV coverage. That's how intense this case got. We saw him at Walmart. We saw them at McDonald's. You don't see them being overly warm with one another. There was a little distance while they were walking, but you couldn't really see a whole lot. But the bottom line, always being the bottom line, Dylan Redwine did reach out to a friend and was going to meet him the next morning. Now, he's at dad's house.

And one thing to point out, Mark Redwine, the father, his home had burned about six months earlier and it had recently been remodeled. And this was the first time that Dylan had really been there since it had been remodeled. And that means something, by the way, as we go further into this case, forensically speaking. So Dylan Redwine is at this house. It wasn't unfamiliar territory. He did have friends there and he called a friend or he reached out to a friend, uh, in the evening and they made plans for the next morning at 6 30 AM. They were going to get to get now something 13 year old boys do, you know, when you're 13 and you've got the woods open area, you can get out there and just, I know I did it, but, oh, that's an age that, you know, what is it as a man now i want to make sure i wanted to make sure my boys got it and i want to make sure my grandson gets

it but there is something beautiful like going out in the woods at 13 and challenging yourself to you know what can you do yeah climbing a tree trying to get back without uh an open wound bleeding right without doing anything to get in trouble, but you have a knife. Usually you have a knife though, just in case. Yeah. Yeah. You have a knife. Uh, you're gonna, you know, you're going to chop wood or, uh, you know, uh, do some whittling or you're going to play army. Yeah. Just an adventure. Yeah, it is. It is a grand adventure. And you, you look at that and you think, and, and for kids of divorce, that's a, that's the ultimate, uh, that's the ultimate fantasy world, isn't it? Because you can get out there and you can, um, I never put that together, Joe. from the tension that's in the house. And interesting, just kind of a little aside here. I used to be, I used to watch the show inside the actor studio where the guy would interview the,

the James Lipton he's passed on now, but he would interview these actors. And there was one thing that he would always start off with in these interviews. And he would say, we're going to come to a common theme now that, that is a thread that runs through all of our guests here. You are a child of divorce. And I would think about that. And I thought, wow, um, you know, where, where does some of this, you know, cause I, I don't really know that many actors. I've, I've, I've got some friends that are, but not close friends, but you know, you think about where do they get all this raw emotion from and all these things. And I know as a divorce kid, there is a lot of raw emotion.

There's a lot of stuff that you have to work out, work through in your mind. And I don't know, maybe some are, you know, are drawn toward the theater because just for a moment you can escape whatever your perception of your reality is at that moment. And at Thanksgiving, imagine Dylan having to be away from the safety of his home with his mother where he wanted to be where he wanted to be and it's joe interesting to point out not only did he not want to be with his dad the last few times they had been together had been very tension filled uh to the point where d Dylan no longer felt comfortable around his dad. Plus, Dylan and Corey, Corey is Dylan's brother, they had found pictures on a computer of their

dad. Yeah. This divorce was already ugly, okay? Just throwing it out, it was already ugly. And apparently Dylan and Corey both had seen some legal documents that painted a very direct picture of what was being claimed by their dad, by their mom. But it was the pictures they saw on this computer that actually made them realize this is not a guy we want to be around. And Dylan did not want to be there. And he had this in the back of his head. And by the way,

Mark knew it. He knew it. Yeah. The, the father had a complete and total awareness. Uh, and I, just, just so you know, you know, I made reference to how, um, and I don't want to make this about me, but just to kind of give you the background, when I was asked to cover this case, and I was actually, you know, I cover cases on Court TV, I cover cases on the Law and Crime Network, and I have friends at both places whom I care for deeply. And I'll be friends with many of them for life. They asked me, Law and Crime asked me to cover this case, and they send you this kind of this big packet, you know, when you're going through it. And when you begin to look at the notes of what you're going to cover, and I begin to read through this thing, and I'm thinking, okay, missing young boy. Remains have been found in, you know, two separate locations. They're skeletonized. He's missing for a time.

Oh, and then there's these pictures and I'm thinking, oh, okay, well, what are the pictures? And then I had to do a double take when I began to read about them. Because, you know, these pictures, when you're thinking about forensic psychology, there are certain roles that people think about from a sexual standpoint. People have, I don't want to call them predispositions. That's not necessarily what they do, but they are what are referred to as paraphilias. And there is a particular paraphilia that is out there that's actually called corporophilia. And it is a fascination. I hate to say this on my own show, but it's a fascination with feces, in particular human feces. And if you can imagine you're a divorced kid, you're scared, You've got tension between your parents.

And you travel along with your brother, Corey, to your father's house months prior to your disappearance. And you're digging through your dad's computer, as you had mentioned. And you come across a file. And you look at that file. You're in the bathroom with your brother. The door is locked. And you click on it. And there are images of your father. Dressed in women's lingerie.

With makeup on. And human feces spread all over his face eating from a diaper. Dave, have you ever heard of someone saying, I almost died of embarrassment? You ever heard that phrase before? I've used it before. I have too. You were talking about theater and actors a minute ago and I was thinking, okay, now your name in my life, did you get my bio? Cause yeah. And I, and it was during one of those times where I thought I was going to be so embarrassed. I was going to die.

Yeah. And it does happen. And, and look there, we commit any number of faux pas in life. You know, things we say, things we shouldn't do, or we exit the bathroom and toilet paper is hanging out of the backside of our pants or stuck to our shoe. Or we've got spinach in our teeth or, you know, or in my case, when I saw a friend of mine, I hadn't seen in years and years, this lady that I was dear friends with when I was a child. And she she I saw her and she said, oh, I'm pregnant. I said, I know. And she said, I just found out yesterday. And so the meaning is, is that she had physically changed, and I hadn't seen her in years. Oh, she was a – okay, I got you. She had increased in size, and I felt – I turned 50 shades of red and was very embarrassed for having said that.

And I followed it up with telling her that I thought that she looked lovely. And, of course, I'm tripping over my tongue the entire time. But when you get, when you get to the degree that Dylan's father was at, particularly with these, uh, this paraphilia that he engaged in, um, and you document it photographically, you save it, you save these images so that i guess that you can live out this kind of fantastical life when it's not going on and then suddenly your children find out about it um i would think that that would be i don't know an impetus for a rage field event perhaps there was an interesting twist on this that the the boys cory Mark, or Dylan rather, Corey and Dylan are the boys. They kept it to themselves at first.

They didn't immediately challenge Dad. They didn't immediately go to him and say, what are you doing? Who are you? They held it. They didn't know what to do. I mean, they're kids. Yeah. How's a kid going to know what to say to this?

So imagine, here's Dylan. And by the way, Dylan and his father were together on a trip to Boston to play baseball. It was a little league thing that Dylan was a part of. And it was on this trip when Mark or Dylan and Corey both had been talking about confronting their father about these pictures. And Dylan apparently had decided he was going to use this trip to Boston to confront him. And he texted Corey, send me the pictures. Corey didn't send him the pictures. I don't know whether he he decided I'm not going to let Dylan do it.

I'm going to do it. Corey didn't send the pictures. Dylan, he sent these pictures to their dad on this trip. And he wrote some pretty. They were from an insulting standpoint, they were pretty awesome. I don't realize, I don't remember how old Corey is. Uh, Dylan was 13.

Um, but Corey wrote, you are what you eat to his dad with these pictures that he showed him. So now on this trip to Boston, Mark Redwine realizes that both of his sons or at least Corey knows about the pictures because Corey sent them to him all I could think of is that some point in time you mentioned that it's an actual issue it's a I didn't realize that Joe I thought you know there's all kinds of perversions and things that people get into but But apparently, you know, he was in the closet with this, didn't want anybody to know about it. And you've got pictures of him wearing a red bra, makeup, and a diaper filled with Indian food, you know, eaten by a child first. Yeah.

And I just, it boggles my mind. Yeah, it's actually horrible. I've seen not just the crime scene photos, but I've seen these images that are, you know, that are essentially the little spark that created the flame for everything. And here's an interesting bit of forensic data that arose because there's a whole line of texting messages that went through that kind of ran up the spine of this whole case um when cory the older brother sent that text to his father interestingly enough mark wrote back and responded to cory and yeah and he said, you know, and this is after, after Corey had told him that he's a coward, that he was nothing more than a sperm donor. And then Mark actually texts back to Corey, the father, and says, telling him not to hurt his brother. Now, he's telling the older brother not to hurt the younger brother. And, you know, I guess he's saying, you know, don't show him these photos,

thinking that Corey's the only one seeing them. But, you know, going to what you had said earlier, you know, there's kind of a disconnect in these follow-up visits that he was having. Dylan had already seen them. Right. This child already had these images, you know, in his mind. And that's what I was going to ask you, Joe, because you've covered this more. I thought I had covered it a lot until I looked at what you've done with this case. And I, I hate it for you because I've had nightmares about this one, but when I saw this and again, my brother

and I were, uh, he's two years older than I am, uh, when my parents were going through a divorce and then it's not just the divorce, it's the things that happen after the divorce. And that's what we're dealing with here is the aftermath. Even though mom and dad didn't seem to do a good job of keeping the boys uninvolved in the divorce, they were very involved. They knew everything that was going on. They're old enough to know, I guess. But when I believe based on what I've seen that Mark, uh, Redwine actually

believed, yes, Corey has these, don't share them with your little brother. Don't hurt him. Let's keep this between you and me and we'll deal with it. I, you know, he was trying to save face. I thought all the while he doesn't know that Dylan has seen these pictures and actually wants to confront him about them, but they had already been having a bad time together, as you mentioned. So do you think that their relationship was so off kilter that Mark Redwine, the father, didn't realize that Dylan Redwine not only saw the pictures, but had formulated his own opinion, and that was what was causing the friction in their relationship? Or was he so deluded as to

think I can turn Dylan to be back on my side in this divorce and you know we'll just fight it that way no I think that at this point in time you know probably Mark Redwine realized that he had crossed the Rubicon with this and I think that more than likely he's trying to understand and figure out what he should do next. I think that along with this comes this level of humiliation and concurrently anger. And he's going to strike out. Remember that, you know, he had been texting. You had mentioned the Boston, going to Boston for baseball. That was back on August 5, 2012.

It's November the 18th. Remember you talked about Thanksgiving. It's November the 18th. Remember you talked about Thanksgiving. It's November the 18th. He's had to make a trip to his dad. This is Dylan by himself. And he arrives at his dad. The last time he's known to be alive is November the 18th, 2012. So you've got all of this time, August to November, for all of this stuff to bubble up.

And who knows what's going on from a communication standpoint during that period of time. Is communication becoming less frequent? Do you have angry messages flying back and forth? What's being said on the phone from one another? And so all of this plays into trying to determine where Dylan is at this point in time. You know, once he goes missing on November the 18th and he's under the care of his father, you know, the dad, Mark Redwine, says he had left to go out and run errands. And in fact, you know, when he got home, he said that, well, you know, Dylan wasn't there.

He wasn't there, couldn't find him anywhere. And so that's troubling. There was some activity on Dylan's phone. I think probably the last phone activity was about 9 p.m. on November the 18th. And, you know, who knows who was actually using the phone at that point in time to communicate with his friend. You know, Dylan was supposed to go meet up with his buddy. And, of course, that never happened.

I would like to point out Corey Redwine is actually several years older than Dylan. Corey Redwine actually was 20 years old, give or take, when this was going on. He's reached that age of emancipation where if he doesn't want to go to dad's house, he doesn't have to go. Well, I looked at him because I was wondering why. Because that had always troubled me. And I like wait a minute he was considerably older and that's a that's a big that's also why he was so confrontational with his dad and it also makes sense as to why mark would address him almost as a pair as a peer as an adult saying don't hurt your little brother but you know seeing him as much younger not realizing that dylan's the one that

found the photos to start with and told cory them. But now you've got the conference, the discussion where he's, we've got the text messages from Dylan to his friend, uh, the evening before the next morning, uh, Mark claims he goes out to run errands. And when he got home, Dylan was gone. That's the scenario that he played out and stayed with. This is where the world of forensics boggles my mind, Joe. It really does. Because I had no idea. I had no idea of what you guys are capable of figuring out. Not just the next day, the next week, the next month.

But months and months. I mean, what can still be found out? What's left behind? There is no perfect crime. No, no, there's not. There is no perfect crime. You can't do anything in a vacuum. And I, you know, I always reflect back.

I know I've referenced this before, you know, we're in the book of Genesis where, you know, God calls out to Cain and says, you know, tells Cain, you know, your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. And in this particular case, you've got Dylan's blood is actually found within the home. And it's not, later reports forensically indicate that it is apparently not to the level or volume that would necessarily be an event that is consistent with incompatibility with life, where you've just got a tremendous amount of blood that's there that maybe there was an attempt to clean up, but they found, they found some on a coffee table. They found some on, on, on, on a sofa. There was actually some beneath the carpet. And interestingly enough, it was a dog that found the blood,

you know, within the home. And dogs are so fascinating. You know, you talk about us as forensic investigators. But, you know, when you have an animal at your disposal that has this incredible olfactory, I call it an olfactory spectrum. I know that people that are working in ophthalmology will probably laugh about that. But that's what I refer to it as. It's a spectrum of smell that they have that we as humans can't even begin to touch. And they are specially trained.

And on a side that folks might not know, when I worked with a medical examiner, we would have a lady that would come by periodically and she would go back into our decomp area and she had rags that she would soak up decomp fluid out of the trays where the body sat and seal them and then take those rags out into the woods and smear the trees with decomp fluid to train her dogs with so that they would know what decomposing human remnants smell like. And so these dogs are trained. You've got two separate groups of them. You've got them that will track the living. Okay. You think bloodhounds and those sorts of things. And then you have cadaver dogs. And so what's considered to be a cadaver dog? Well, post-mortem, there has to be some level of decay that's there because it's on a different olfactory spectrum, if you will.

And they hit on these things. They can even pick up on the smell. Blood actually has a foul odor in and of itself, even as it decomposes. And so they'll hit along that spectrum spectrum and they'll be able to track. But just within the house alone, they found Dylan's blood. And here's the thing. We're talking about, this is not like this would have been necessarily old, old blood. Because what did you say in the beginning, Dave?

This man's house had burned. It had been renovated. So the sample that would have been in there would have been something that probably would have been placed down in that area or would have been introduced into that environment post-renovation, post-fire. So that narrows it down because the fire, if I remember, took place like back in March of 2012. And Dillon goes missing November the 12th. And you're left, you're left wondering, well, why would you have multiple spots of this child's blood in this home that, you know, he does, he's not domiciled there. He doesn't live there all the time. So, you know, you can explain it. I mean, I've had a spontaneous bloody

nose over the course of my life. Heck, I've busted my head on different things and, you know, had an open bleeding wound. Yeah, that does happen. Certainly, you know, being a qualified former little boy, I know that I have spouted blood any number of ways. But, you know, from an investigative standpoint, how do you get past that? This is one of those moments in time where you have to ask bigger questions. And one of the things that we do know, this little boy was nowhere in that house. But something tells me the dogs are going to play a key role in discovering Dylan's remains. Dave, I think if I ever do a podcast, maybe as an adjunct to Body Bags, where we just do a little separate one, I think I might use the title Corpus Delecti. I've always liked that term. It comes from the Latin, and it means the body of the crime, they were wondering if they, I think that they suspected something was up, but they knew that they had to find this child's body if they were ever going to move forward with a case.

And certainly moving forward without a body is a problem. So Dylan goes missing November 19, 2012. They don't find him. There was weather situations to deal with, with regard to being able to put out a search for him. It wasn't until the following year in 2013 when, and it was the femur, but it was both femurs, right? Now, what are the odds of finding that, you know, something so specific leg bones, um, without finding everything? It just seems odd. Yeah, it kind of does to me too. But that's what they found in 2013. Yeah, it was actually in June. So this is going to be after everything is thawed. Remember we're in a higher elevation in Colorado. It's to say that that Colorado

winters are brutal is certainly an understatement. It's terrifying. That weather, you know, during those periods of time, right. And, you know, when Dylan went missing, they were right on the cusp of that moment in time. I think that they'd already had some snowfall when Dylan had missed, had gone missing back in 12. Right. But moving forward, you know, you have to get out beyond that period, the thaw, before you're going to find anything.

And what did occur is that I think it was roughly 10 miles away from Mark Redwine's home that the left and the right femurs are actually found. So if you. And they were found on a road, Joe. Yeah. That was odd. odd they found and it was eight miles from his house eight miles from his house they find the bones but they're on a road why would they find bones on a road um in june yeah and and so that that to me many times if if temperature drops okay you'll have the body that will go into it won't stop

decomposing but it will slow the decompositional process down a bit particularly if temperatures at a high elevation really start to dip and so they could have been deposited off of the road some distance say on an atv trail and we we do know that Mark Redwine had an ATV. And they're deposited there. And then once an animal begins to smell these decomposing remains, remember, they're actually found in June. There's nothing to say that an animal would not have come by and grabbed this lower portion of the body.

And it's not just the lower portion of the body. When they found the left and right femurs, they actually found the right clavicle. So if you will touch, if you will, if you're listening to my voice right now, it's your collarbone and it's your right collarbone. That's what they found of Dillon's. And in addition to that, they found the tibia, which is one of the lower leg bones. There's two. You have the tibia and the fibula that are in the lower leg. Well, they found the right tibia. So you've got two, and it's an odd combination in it, Dave. You've got the left and the right femur, which are the large, robust bones in the legs. You've got the right clavicle, which is the collarbone.

And then you've got this right tibia. So, you know, as forensic scientists, you know, one of the things that you're thinking about, once this has been identified as human remains, you can't necessarily say that it belongs to a specific person at that point in time. But when you begin to examine these and you're thinking, well, why do I only have these items? Well, am I looking at a case where we've got an animal that has torn a body apart? Or do I have a case where another animal, a human, has torn a body apart, or do I have a case where another animal, a human,

has torn a body apart and deposited the parts in various areas? And so, you know, you begin to think about this. If it's a human, then one of the things that you're going to look for on the surface of the bones are going to be tool marks, because that's how, that's what we do. We've got opposable thumbs and we work with tools. And so if you're going to take apart a human body, you're going to need tools to do that. And it's very, I don't know of any possible way that you could dismember a human remain without utilizing some kind of metal tool in order to do that. So these bones would have to be carefully examined to, you know, kind of either rule that in or rule it out. Now, one thing they did is after they found the bones in June of 2013, it took a couple of weeks,

but in August, about eight weeks after they find those bones, they're able to search the house and the truck. That's when they find, they bring in the cadaver dogs. A human cadaver dog is brought into Mark Redwine's home, and that's where the dogs were hitting on saying that the corpse of a deceased person had been present. That's the actual way they wrote it out. It had been present in that home, also in the bed of his truck, and this was after they'd found those bones. But they didn't find all of them and one comment mark redwine made to a friend of his that really came back to haunt him before they found anything mark redwine made the comment i guess they were talking about how do you charge anybody you know if he was killed if he you know just i i'm trying to

picture a conversation you would have with somebody that would include the term blunt force trauma from a dad talking about his son when he doesn't know what has happened to his son. Why? For the life of me, I can't figure out. Joe, that's just not a term I would want to use about a loved one, much less would even think about using, but he did. Mark Redwine talked about blunt force trauma and, well, they'd need to find his head. Talking about police, in order to determine that his son had been murdered by blunt force trauma, well, they'd need to find his head. Yeah. How is it that you're comfortable enough to make that comment? And it's so very specific.

You know, you can reformulate that to talk about, well, you know, gee, I hope they find my son's body and maybe there'll be information contained on it that'll let us know what happened. Okay. That's, that's kind of the sympathetic view. But then you begin to look at this from the perspective of, well, um, you're being very specific here, very specific because blunt force is something that we normally talk about, uh about in the realm of forensics and specifically forensic pathology. And it's so, it has such a fine point on it. And not just fine point when you're talking about method that is used, but also, Dave, when you begin to think about anatomical location, because he states, you know, that you'd have to find the skull, and, you know, I'm sure much to

his chagrin, Dylan's skull was actually found. Well, what turned out to be Dylan's skull? Hikers actually found the skull on November the 3rd, 2015. And it took them all the way to May the 25th of, of 2016 to get the skull positively identified at that point in time. Why would it take so long? But I do, I do want to add something to this too, Joe. Yeah. All right. They, they made a note where his partial remains were found in June 2013. They go and discover the cadaver dogs hitting in the house and in the truck bed. And then the hikers, almost three years, nearly, I mean, November 3rd, 2015 is just about three years after he goes missing.

They find his skull and it's now further away it's two miles it's about 10 miles from the house and the one thing that mark redwine had said out loud is he believed wild animals had attacked and had drug him and one of the experts a wildlife expert actually determined that quote no animal known to be in the area would transport a body up the mountain from mr redwine's residence to the first recovery site or would transport the skull an additional 1.5 miles through the terrain where the skull was found this was in the indictment yeah they're they're not going to do that. And I concur with the expert in this case. And in my experience with where you have what are referred to as a surface deposition of human remains, which means these are non-buried remains.

These are remains that are left on top of the ground. Now I'm not saying that at some point in time, the remains could not have been buried and then kind of dug up, but if these are surface deposition, yeah, surface deposition. And essentially what that means is that if you think about, okay, I'll give you a good example. Think about Brian Laundrie. Okay. They found him out in the swamps. Well, when Brian Laundrie's remains were found out in the swamp, his body was not buried. That's a surface deposition of the body in total. Now, with these remains, it's over such a massive area. And Dave, it's not like, you know, here in the deep south, we're going to walk down a dirt road together, carrying something in our hand and throw out one item here and throw it in another.

You're talking about undulating, uneven terrain that rises and falls at pitches we can't even fathom, particularly those of us that are flatlanders that live in these, in these areas around here, the terrain varies so much. Most animals when they scavenge, and this is one other thing before I forget it, I wanted to mention when Dylan died or was turned up missing, it was shortly after that, that I think that Mark Redwine had, had, uh, you know, put forth this idea that perhaps a bear had gotten him. But the experts, and this gives you an idea of the temperatures at this time, the experts said that by the time that Dylan had gone missing in November of 12, the bears would have gone into hibernation by that time. So they're not out and about.

And you compare this to the Morphew case. What did Barry Morphew say about his wife? Well, mountain lion got her. But there's only three. They're very territorial and there are only three in the area. And that one was nowhere near where he was. Yeah. Isn't it interesting how people blame animals for these sorts of things? And with most surface depositions of skeletal remains where you have bodies, let's just put it this way, where you have bodies that are, you have bodies that are intact, okay? That means that nothing has been done with them. As they decay on the ground, animals will come and they'll generally start

in areas that they can get access to. So if you've got a closed body, they're going to go for the face, they're going to go for the fingers, all right? And they start to pull. And as the body. They're going to go for the face. They're going to go for the fingers. All right. And they start to pull. And as the body begins to deteriorate, things are more easily pulled apart till they begin to tear at the clothing. Now, some of Dylan's clothing was found. There were remnant of clothing out there, including, I think, shoes as well. But here's the thing. You're not going to have them spreading remains over this vast, uneven terrain. And I think the skull, what was, okay, so the lower remains, this deposition of the femurs, eight miles away, along with the clavicle and the tibia, that's eight miles away. You've got to go another mile and a half up, you know, increasing in elevation where you're going to find his head. It just, it, you know, as they say down here in the South, that dog don't hunt.

And so it's just, it's just one of those things that it just, it defies all logic. Animals are not going to drag. If they're in a particular area, kind of scavenging, they're going to grab whatever they can grab. They're going to take it back. And the smaller animals, you know, you can forget about that because if you're talking about coyotes, these are not huge, robust animals where they're going to walk miles and miles. And it's not like the savannas of Africa with a lion or something. They're not going to walk miles and miles and miles with something that they're going to, they're going to eat. They're going to go very short distances, sit down, and they're going to begin to ingest their food.

So if that is what happened, this makes no sense. But what does make sense is you've got body parts. You've got his remains found at eight miles away. Then a mile and a half up the mountain, you find his skull. But what did they find on the skull, Joe? Because we remember Mark Redwine made the comment, well,

they can't do anything without fine, you know, without the head because, and he mentioned the, that's where the blunt force trauma came in, by the way, still an unexplainable comment that he made. And it has been brought up at court.

It was brought up in each stage of along this way, because who would say that other than somebody guilty of doing such a thing but what did that skull tell investigators well other you know well baseline they were finally able to get dylan's remains identified off of oh yeah okay back to that you said okay they found the skull in november yeah but it was may of the next year before they could even identify it? Yeah, and the images that I've seen of the skull seems like that it would make dental ID very, very difficult on him. And by the time you're Dylan's age in life, you will have had some type of dentistry performed. And many people might not know this.

I'm sure that DNA came into play in Dylan's case. But did you know that there are certain cases where we're trying to identify bodies if we don't have teeth? Well, actually, forensic odontologists who look at the dental x-rays, well, I've been involved in cases where we use the sinuses to identify people. So you can do a comparison between sinuses of antemortem x-rays with post-mortem x-rays of the skull. So if you've got, you know, you've got sinuses throughout your head, they're not just anterior, you have some posteriors. Well, there are these little chambers in your body and they have certain patterns when you look at them on radiographs, x-rays, you can actually compare antemortem with post-mortem images and you can get x-rays. You can use that as a starting point to get the identification done. And then a forensic

anthropologist will take the skull and they'll begin to do measurements in a very broad sense. So when you're a 13 year old-old, your skull has not fully matured at that point to the same size that it's going to be when you're a full-grown adult. So there are certain measurements that forensic anthropologists will make in order to determine, does this individual fit within this demographic that we're looking for, we're talking about a 13-year-old white male. Does this skull that we have even begin to marginally fit into that? And so you begin to narrow down from there. But further examination by the forensic anthropologists found four items that are of significance. First off, they found evidence of these kind of what we refer to as curvilinear fractures on the

skull and when i say curvilinear it's a fancy way of saying that you've got these fractures that are kind of in a line but they also slightly curve and that gives you an idea that and they're they're separate they're not communicating, which means that they do not touch one another. Those are two specific areas of blunt force trauma that Dylan would have sustained, and these were located in the back of the head. The skull fractures do not appear to be depressed skull fractures where the plug of bone has been knocked down in there, but it's enough potentially of a concussive force that it could kill him. And here's the other thing that will send a chill up your spine about this. Remember how

we were going on about how these remains were separated? Well, Dave, one of the things that the forensic anthropologists found on Dylan's skull were two tiny linear tool marks that are consistent with a knife blade. So what does that tell us? Why would this child have knife blade marks on the external table of his skull? Now, one of the defense experts at Mark Redwine's trial actually put forth the idea, well, that's probably from an animal. The teeth marks of an animal look completely different than a milled edge of a blade, and these things are very uniformed. You can tell that this was generated by a tool, so the big question you have to ask, after Mark Redwine was put to shame as a result of what his boys had discovered, after he thinks about it for some time, about what he's

going to do, did he allow that kernel to be planted within his brain that drove him into such a fit of rage that he would get his son by himself on a Thanksgiving holiday, get him in that house alone, beat him to death, and destroy his mortal remains. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Bags.