Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: The Deaths of Bonnie and Clyde

Episode Date: July 7, 2024

Bonnie and Clyde killed at least nine police officers and four civilians during their 21-month crime spree from 1932 to 1934. The couple were also responsible for several Bank robberies, gas stations hold-ups , and burglaries. They weren't very good thieves, as they rarely got away with more than $80. In this episode of Body Bags, Joseph Scott Morgan will explain how Bonnie Parker suffered so many bullet holes her body had to be plugged to hold embalming fluid, and Dave Mack will take you behind the scenes in the woods with Frank Hamer and Manny Gault as they brought down the  murderous "Bonnie and Clyde".         Transcript Highlights  00:00:10 Introduction of human destruction  00:02:09 Description of Bienville Parish  00:05:24 Description of Bonnie and Clyde car on display  00:08:14 Discussion Bonnie 23, Clyde 25  00:11:15 Talk about Bonnie and Clyde murder young cop  00:15:11 Discussion about State Coroners convention  00:18:05 Discussion about transcribing  00:21:32 Talk about Bonnie and Clyde murdering cops  00:25:57 Discussion of BB Episode about Coroner system  00:28:21 Talk about autopsy of famous people  00:31:41 Discussion of Dr. Wade and others at the autopsy  00:35:00 Discussion of injuries suffered by Bonnie Parker  00:37:42 Conclusion: Bonnie and Clyde meet their end See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Body Bags with Joseph Scott Moore. There's an old adage that says throughout history, the victors write the story, that they essentially put forth the narrative from their perspective of how things happen. And, you know, it can be stated that that comment, if you will, that adage, applies primarily to the rise and fall of civilizations and to wars. But there was a smaller war, very small war, that took place back in the 30s in middle America. In the end, history doesn't exactly reflect the truth. Today, looking back, we're going to discuss a the deaths of multiple police officers at the hands

of two of the most infamous cop killers in American history, Bonnie and Clyde. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Packs. Dave Mack, my friend, when I hear the name Bienville, it evokes memories of my hometown of New Orleans. How far is it from New Orleans? Well, Bienville itself, there's multiple streets or multiple locations in New Orleans that have the name Bienville.

It's a uniquely French name. But the odd thing about it is we're going to talk about Bienville Parish, and Bienville Parish is nowhere near New Orleans. As a matter of fact, it would probably take you because there's not a really good director out. It'd probably take you about four hours to get there from, from New Orleans. It's the parish itself. And remember, you know, in my home state, they don't have counties that Parishes and Bienville Parish actually is closer to the Arkansas border than it is the Gulf of Mexico. OK. And it's that gives me a much better idea. And it's not near the Mississippi River. As a matter of fact, if you were to show up in Bienville Parish, Dave, and ride through it, and all of North Louisiana has this kind of reputation, it doesn't remind most people of what you commonly think of when you think about Louisiana, which is swamps and Cajun culture and Creole culture. You feel like you're in Texas, like an annex of Texas in North Louisiana along the I-20 corridor running through there.

There's horse farms everywhere and rolling hills. Now, they're not huge hills, but it's rolling hills. The soil is red clay. It's not that dark, dark gumbo. They call it gumbo soil that's down there, you know, that's associated with the decay of vegetation and that sort of thing, very swampy. It's not like that. It looks like more like you're heading to Texas. And you are because this is not too far from Shreveport.

And you know that Shreveport on the I-20 corridor is kind of the gateway out of Louisiana into Texas. You continue on down that road out of Shreveport, headed westbound, and you'll be in Texas pretty soon. But, you know, Bienville Parish is where Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker actually met their end in a hail of gunfire. And I think that most people understand that um and you know the infamous you know uh desert colored sedan that they were in that was bullet ridden but i i gotta i know i've been prattling on but i gotta tell you what initially got me interested in this other than the fact that it took place uh in louisiana and um and and actually have seen that car. It used to – when I was little, that car that Bonnie and Clyde died in

used to be placed up on the back of a flatbed truck, and they'd take it all over the south to fairs, and people could see it. It's kind of a gruesome kind of thing, but, you know, that's – compared to the world that we inhabit now, it's kind of tame when you begin to think about it. You know, you can still see the car. Yeah, you can. It's on display at the Prim Valley Resort and Casino. Yeah, yeah.

Isn't that something? And I was telling you about my son Noah the other day up in, I guess, Ripley's, I think, or the Crime Museum or something up in Pigeon Forge. You can see Ted Bundy's car up in, uh, I guess Ripley's, I think the crime museum or something up in pigeon forge, you can see Ted Bundy's car right there, the Volkswagen and John Wayne Gacy's clown suits and all of that sort of thing. So it's rather macabre, but yeah, it's a,

it's a fascinating bit of certainly crime history. And it's, it's kind of woven its way through, through our tales. I think, you know, when you think about it. Well, when you mentioned the color of it, Joe, most of us don't know because we've only seen black and white photos, unless you've seen it in person. I haven't, I've only seen it in pictures. And some of the pictures that we've seen or that have been shown are pretty graphic in

terms of the bullets in the car and the shots that were on Bonnie and Clyde. I know there have been some over the years, not leaked to the press, but published by newspapers all over the country. Yeah, because this was at the era in the early 30s where the Great Depression had set in and banks were in disfavor with most Americans at the time. The banks were blamed for a lot of the undoing of our financial structure in this country. And so at first, when you had these people, the Bonnie and Clyde, Dillinger, Pretty Boy Floyd, you know, you had a whole baby face. Nelson. Yes. They had nicknames that just you know um there was they they were celebrities in a way they were no not no you're absolutely right and capone oh yeah i mean capone i mean and i know that that's a little bit different but

they're all kind of swirling around that same toilet bowl. Yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And when this went on, Capone was in Alcatraz by then, by the 30s, wasn't he? I think it was a little bit later in the 30s or maybe the early 40s. Oh, wow. Of course, he wound up dying of syphilis. Why is it that you and I go right there every time? He died of the things they warned us about in health class in seventh or eighth grade. There you go.

All right. Anyway, Bonnie and Clyde, they were very young. Oh, yeah. When they started their life of crime, Bonnie had already been married and actually was currently married when she met Clyde Barrow. I think she was like 19. She was 19. Yeah. Yeah. And she was already married and her husband was in jail and they hit it off. But Clyde ended up in the clinic very shortly after he met Bonnie. He ended up in jail and she actually, they met and just connected. You hear of stories of people talking about love at first sight and things

like that. Yeah. Bonnie and Clyde, very close to that. Again, she was already married to somebody else. He's in prison. Clyde had been in and out of jail,

by the way, to give you an idea of how old they were. Clyde was 25. Bonnie was 23 when they were killed. Yeah. You're not talking about a huge amount of time. No, very short window here and it was bonnie parker that smuggled the gun into clyde and in prison for him to break out

of jail yeah that's they just connected so fast and boom she didn't do that for her husband but she did it for clyde did it for clydede. And he was and he's a little video guy. She was tiny as well. I think that people build these folks up so that they're, you know, that you think that they're giants walking the earth and they're really not. And when you think about how much devastation they wreaked over that. It was roughly a two-year period. There's a 21-month span from the beginning to the end of killing. And by the way, they were not good thieves.

They were not bank robbers that made a lot of money. They never actually scored a lot of money. I think their average take was like 80 bucks. But what they were was they were soulless, merciless killers who killed more police officers than civilians. Think about that. Yeah, they did. And I think that's an extension.

And I've heard this reported before, you know, that, you know, Clyde, apparently he wound up in prison as a result. They hooked him up on a beef over stolen chicken. That's kind of his first. Yeah. Entree into this. No pun intended there. And and then I think he failed to return a rental car of all things.

But here's what happened when he got inside with the penitentiary or the jail in Texas. He wound up getting raped multiple times inside of that institution. And so, and like I said, he was a really tiny guy and he probably had a really hard time defending himself. There was a prison guard that is counted on his scorecard as a result of a death. You know, and so that extension of police officers, if you crossed his path, because let's face it he this is kind of an interesting take and I don't know if people have really thought about this we talk a lot about serial killers and we have now for decades can you Dave Mack my friend remember any serial killer that targeted police officers wow no and he found a compatriot in bonnie yeah and they were out to kill cops i mean it's and these these are young young fellas that they're

killing and many of them had families and you know you you mentioned young Joe very quickly. The tide turned on Bonnie and Clyde because of the killing of a police officer on Easter Sunday who was on his second day on the job. Up until then, they were folk heroes. You know, they were robbing banks that had, you know, destroyed people's lives, killing police officers. I don't know what the I don't know what the average take was on that in the 1930s. I don't know. But I do know this. After there was like before the killing of the police officer on that Easter Sunday, there was kind of a groundswell of support, entertainment, value of watching the shenanigans

of Bonnie and Clyde and the barrow gang after that murder for no reason killing these two police officers not in a shootout not in a shootout that was when people okay these are evil people we got to get them you know we have to take them out now and that's what led to the big that was the beginning of the end. Granted, they were being hunted, but. Yeah, they were. And they became, you know, they used to love to use the term mad dog. Yeah. A mad dog killer. And there was actually a guy who's associated with the New York underworld. I think it was Mad Dog McCall was his name.

And matter of fact, I think the movie The Cotton Club back in the 80s, maybe 84, Nicolas Cage actually played a character that's based on that guy and went by that name. And so they use that term Mad Dog. And I think and it's an easy, you know, when you're a rural person and you've got a dog out in the yard that's foaming at the mouth, that's baring its teeth, and you know what's going on. It not just indicates danger, but it also indicates a disease, a level of lethality that you know that if you don't put them down, they're not going to stop. Dave, I got a question for you, brother. Have you, have you ever done something that felt wrong when you were doing it, but it really wasn't wrong, but yet you had this kind of feeling, you know, like, man, if somebody saw me doing this or getting caught with this i'd be in trouble has that ever happened to you i'm not asking you to reveal any any deep

dark secrets here but boy okay i'll go along with that and say yes and that's all i'm gonna get out of you yeah oh man this is i you, this is bogus, man. I was really hoping we were going to open the vault here on Dave Mack. No, I can't. You know what, Joe? I look at, no, statute of limitations. You know, you start thinking about, I always said if I ever ran for office, my slogan would be, yes, I did. You know, just because.

Well, I got to tell you something real quick that I felt I had that feeling about myself when it has to do with Bonnie and Clyde. Yeah. I guess it was probably 1988 or 87. I can't recall. Went to a state coroner's convention in Louisiana where I was working at the time. And it's kind of, as you can imagine, it's kind of an interesting event to go to, particularly if you were not in that world, if you were an observer and you could come in because you can imagine all the stories that are being told in this environment. I think that it might make some people at CrimeCon blush more than likely because they, you know, you and particularly during that that time period, all those years, all those years ago, there were so many things that were going on relative to serial killings and just horrible crimes that a lot of people had never heard

of because you didn't have the vast media coverage. But back to my big reveal here. When I was there, I was with my mentor. It was my first time I'd ever been. And it was my mentor that had trained me as a death investigator, arguably, in my opinion, probably the best forensic scientist and practitioner I've ever been around in my life. His name was Bill. Bill introduced me to a group of people that were coroners from North Louisiana. Now remember we're down in new Orleans and we're chatting and a meth

coroner from Bienville parish. And he tells Bill, I've got something for you, but don't tell anybody. You know, Bill says, you know, he's like talking to me. He's like, I don't know what he's got, but

he says, I can't tell anybody, but I'm telling you. And the next thing I knew, Bill's waving me over to the side. And we retired somewhere for drinks. And kind of holed up in a lounge. And he says, you're not going to believe what I've got. I was like, okay, hit me. I said, does this have something to do with the guy from Bienville Pairs? He's like, yeah, you're not going to believe what I got. I was like, okay, what have you got? He says, I've got a copy of the coroner's records from Bonnie and Clyde's examination post-mortem. I was like, what? Because, you know, back during that time, Dave, as you well know, you've been in media for quite a while.

You remember back. You didn't have access to this kind of stuff. You couldn't just go online like you can. And if you go online now, you can actually see the coroner's jury report that's written out in longhand. It looks like it's written in pencil. It's the same one that I was given all those years now. And now it's everywhere, you know, and it's been transcribed because I remember sitting down, Dave, when I got this thing, because Dave, I'm sorry, Bill made a copy of it for me when we got back.

And it's on legal-sized paper. So you had to load legal paper into the copier. He made me copies of this thing. And I actually had to take a magnifying glass out and try to make out because this is all written in longhand. None of this stuff was typed up and all of a sudden the world kind of burst open for me because for the first time i'd seen images you know in publications and all these sorts and i'd heard the tales as a kid i'd seen the car but when you have that document in front of you that recorded this event and these

people that were there and they're actually relaying what they saw in regards to bonnie and claude uh it was it was quite amazing it really was because you had a clothing description. You know, the only point of reference I had, I don't know about you, was Faye Dunaway and Warren Beatty. Right. You know, in that movie from back in the 60s, which is horrible because I think that it, you know, it further propagated this idea that these people were heroes. And isn't that horrible, you know, kind of how they painted this relative to these people? And we've had this evolution over a period of time, and I hope that it continues. But, you know, in addition to, for folks that have never been to that area up there, it's Bienville Parish, and it's obviously not populated by the most wealthy people in the world. They're salt of the earth people that grind a life out.

They make their living in agar-based stuff or their pulp wooders. And here's something fascinating that I discovered because I went out to the site, the location of where the ambush took place, because, you know, Kim and I, we were on the road, and we were like, hey, here's Gippsland, because that's the address that it carries, but it's actually about eight miles outside of Gippsland, and so it's a two lane state highway and it's got new growth pine forest on both sides of the road that has obviously been harvested for pulpwood over the years. And there is a stone monument that sits in this kind of dusty red clay area just off the shoulder of the road. And over the years, it's been chipped away. There's chunks of it that are missing because people show up with a hammer or a chisel and they'll take a piece of it. And there's weird poetry that's been scribbled or, and this was kind of interesting, there are these tiny little wellheads that are capped off that the field is just populated with. And those are natural gas wellheads.

Right. And, you know, and I find that there's a bit of irony, I think, in that regarding their deaths. You know, they sought they sought this fantastic, you know, idea that, yeah, we're going to murder cops. We're going to try to pick up some money along the way. And here they are. You know, they're just absolutely riddled there in that spot, allegedly. And then across the way is a field that is representative of all the money in the world that you could ever want if you had access to it. And so, you know, I don't know, serve God or mammon, I guess. But, you know, you look there and you see that and it's kind of a fascinating bit.

But it's isolated, Dave. This location is so far out there. And, you know, when Hamer, who is the retired Texas Ranger. Frank Hamer and Manny Galt that were out there. Yeah, and Manny Galt. And they went out there with a posse, and it was a posse. Right. And they sat and waited in that brush line.

And, you know, there's been reports. I don't know, Dave, if you've ever gotten covered in red bugs at any point in time in your life. These guys had red bugs on them. It's May. It's North Louisiana. It it's hot it's humid you're dehydrated and you don't know when these people are going to show up because they were going actually to the home of the parent of one of their compatriots it was actually henry metham it was just bonnie and clyde at this point and the frank hamer and Manny Gall knew that they were probably going to be paying a visit to Henry Methvin or his family.

Just didn't need a place to sleep because Bonnie had been hurt in a car accident in June of 1933. The her face was burned. Her arms were burned. Her chest was caved in. According to Blanche, she had she had injuries from this accident that she never recovered from. And they had to take time for her to get off the road for a little while. And that's where they thought they'd be heading, to Henry Methvin's dad. And that's why Frank Hamer and Manny Galt actually camped out and waited.

And it was not hours. It was days. It was days. And you mentioned the bugs the and that's the one thing that was written about these guys uh hammer galt and a couple other guys they're waiting they're waiting in the bushes they're waiting for bonnie and to come driving by so let me let me ask. Do you know why they were waiting? Do you know why they were willing to endure that heat and that humidity and red bugs and skeeters and all manner of everything else that was up in the brush there along with them, maybe copperheads and rattlesnakes and everything else that's in that area you're talking about spring.

They had had it up to here. I think what it comes down to is that Frank Hamer and his posse wanted to be on one level, that reassurance that they were wearing white hats and that they were going to do whatever they possibly could to bring a resolution to this horror and quiet the public. Because it's one thing for some newspaper in some far-flung place away from Bienville Parish, Louisiana, up in New York or Chicago at the time or maybe even L.A. to write a piece about how romantic this all is. But when you're down on the ground and you're a cop, store owner,

or maybe working in a bank, you live your life in terror. Hey, Dave, you remember a couple of weeks ago did an episode of Body Bags on the Corner System? Yeah. Do you recall that? I remember studying after the fact. That was the most enlightening. I learned so much on that episode. And a number of people have actually sent in emails about how much we all learned.

It was like being in class. But I just remember when you and I finished, I went, okay figure this out it's a no clue it's it's a it's a weird world that you enter into when you walk to the door with joseph scott morgan i'm sorry for i'm sorry for any trauma no it was awesome i had no idea joe i mean it was one of those things where i had no i you know one of the things you don't know what you don't know i I had no idea what I didn't know. Well, the corner system in Louisiana is interesting. It's interesting everywhere. But, you know, unlike other states in Louisiana, there are a couple others.

But specifically, I'm speaking to Louisiana. In order to run for the office of coroner there, you have to be a physician. And that has always been the case. It's not something new under the sun. And, you know, when there was an exam that had to be conducted on the remains of Bonnie and Clyde, it fell to the corner of Bienville Parish at that particular time to facilitate that. It had to make it happen. And it was done. Dr. Wade was actually the coroner there.

And he's an old country doctor. When you have like a case that is this big, that has national, you know, international coverage of this, these people. Is there not a way to bring in somebody at the, you know, bigger, more educated? I mean, I know that the law requires that it hand it is handled like right here but kind of like when jfk was was killed 30 years later they took his body out of dallas and got it to washington dc granted he was the president but these people are famous criminals they've broken the law in several states was there any thought that we need to bring somebody else in to do the autopsy or was it just get it done and get them out?

Yeah. Hang on for a minute because I got to tell you. Yeah. Relative to JFK, they did not take him certainly to the finest that was available. Right. They went to the bottom of the barrel as far as I'm concerned. Yeah. With Bonnie and Clyde, however, it was the office of corner in Bienville Parish, you know, reflecting back.

I told you about the about the, you know, the report that that I'd been given, you know, all all these many years ago that I'd wanted to talk about. And this was the thing is is handwritten, which, by the way, I could not understand when you told me you got a magnifying glass. I looked at it. I looked at this while you're going over and I'm like, how did you read that? I mean, yeah, yeah, it's it's it's something to see. And look, anybody can see it. I recommend, you know, all you got to do is, you know, is Google search. Yeah. Google search office.

You know, the corners report the bodies of Bonnie and Clyde Parker. And you'll find it. It's there. And it's really, it's very difficult to kind of decipher. But, you know, looking back in time and when I saw this thing, I thought that they did a pretty good job. But, you know, what's really interesting about Bonnie and Clyde's case, Dave, is they didn't actually do an autopsy. I don't know if you know that. No? They did not actually do an autopsy. I don't know if you know that. No, they did not actually do an autopsy. You had

what was impaneled back then is called a coroner's jury. And it was a collection of men. Coroner's juries are a thing. And it's almost like, I don't know how to describe it other than kind of like a grand jury where you're trying to, with a grand jury, you're trying to decide if there is enough information to indict somebody, if you're going to true bill or no true bill a case, right? A criminal case. With a coroner's jury, their purpose was to be there for the coroner to present evidence to them that how they were going to rule the death. Okay, what are they going to call this? Are they going to call this homicide, suicide?

You know, what are they going to call this? And obviously, you know, we sit here and we think about what was pretty obvious, you know, how Bonnie and Claude died. Would it be called a homicide? Yes, it is. This is a homicide. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's pretty obvious, you know, how Bonnie and Claude died. Would it be called a homicide? Yes, it is. This is a homicide. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's nothing there. It wasn't accidental.

It's not suicide. You know. Yeah, but wow. Yeah. And it's just like, just like a, you know, an execution in a state penitentiary is a homicide. Okay. You can't call it anything else.

Right. Period. And so they impaneled a jury, a coroner's jury, and it's not that they had trouble determining, but it goes back to an interesting statement you made just a moment ago. This is going to be the official record going forward forever and ever and ever and ever. Amen.

Amen. And the fascinating thing is that when they're looking at this, you've got all of these men that are impaneled on this jury with the coroner being the leader of it. And they're there to verify because who else is going to verify? Remember the world that they're living in. They're living in a world, Dave, that news, I mean, it doesn't move at the speed that, say, the Pony Express moved at. But, you know, you're still working with telegraphs. They're using telephone.

I think there may have been a rudimentary fax by that point in time. I think they called it something else. But you still, it moves slow. You had to have somebody there that would verify that these people were, in fact, dead. And it's better than just having one person to verify the death. Now you've got a whole group of people. And not only do you have a group, all these guys are signing off on this. And you can see the list of their signatures. When you look down the page on this thing, they're all there. And their names are affixed to this document as odd as it is, there were, looking at it physically, looking at it right now, there's five people that have signed on to this in addition to Dr. Wade, who was there.

And, you know, they go into, you know, great detail about describing the bodies and the injuries. You know, Bonnie actually received the worst of it. Not that what Clyde had received wasn't bad, but there's a story that goes on out there relative to Bonnie's body. And just imagine this. She was hit so many times. And I'll go into kind of the nastiness of these wounds in just a second. But just kind of let me set this up. She was shot so many times that they actually had a very difficult time embalming her body. So, just imagine. We have to think about the way the embalming process works. It's a profusion of embalming fluid, you know, in the major vessels of the body.

The body's on a table. It's kind of tilted from the head down. They've got these trocars that they go into the body with, and they start their little pump. In days gone past, the mortician would use a foot pump, you know, to infuse the body with the embalming fluid. Well, can you imagine that, and they still have to do this today with multiple gunshot wound cases, but she was springing leaks. And let that set in just for a second. So, you've got the vessels that carry the blood obviously are now being perfused with embalming fluid. And the vessels that carry the blood obviously are now being perfused with embalming fluid. And the way the thing works is through gravity.

As the body is being perfused with the embalming fluid traditionally, you can see the line coming out of the body and the blood is being pushed out of the body. It's being replaced by embalming fluid. Well, it wasn't getting to that point. The holes were there, and the body had to be plugged in order to take on the embalming fluid. Joe, I was looking at the list of these injuries, and it was listed out on Bonnie. Okay, on Bonnie, I actually had to look at this several times because you mentioned probably written in pencil. Yeah, the penmanship was weak, but shot in the left breast going into chest. This was a description of a bullet wound shot four inches below the ear. Another shot

entering above the right knee. Two shots front leg leg. Two shots, right leg. Gunshot wound around edge of hair, one and a half inches above the left ear. Another through the mouth on the left side, exiting at top of jaw. Another at middle, just below left jaw. Another above clavicle, left side, going into the neck. Another entering chest, two inches below the inner side of the left shoulder. Two shots, about two inches below the left shoulder, fracturing the bone. Another wound on the elbow of the left arm. Another entering left chest above the heart, another wound on the elbow of the left arm, another entering left chest above the heart, breaking ribs, six shots entering three inches on back region left side, five pellet wounds

about the middle of the left side, cuts from glass on the ankle, cut on top of left foot apparently from glass cut on center of right thigh cut six inches in length about three and a half inches center of right leg eight metal fragments centering across the front of face there you go wow i know it's yeah it it's Now I see why she gets that. By the way, that's not the complete list. No, no. It goes on. And Clyde's is almost as robust. But, you know, they wanted, obviously, the purpose here was to make sure that they were, I used the term neutralized just a moment ago.

And that's a very clinical term. But they wanted, they were mad dogs. And they knew the importance of putting them down. First off, I think probably, and this is me projecting because I, you know, I wouldn't presume to get inside their mind. would probably conclude that not only did they need to neutralize this threat, but they needed to send a message. They needed to send a message to those individuals that thought that they could go out and randomly do whatever they wanted to do, which includes murdering police officers.

And of course, they brought this to an end and right quick. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Bags. This is an iHeart Podcast.