Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: The Mayor and The Murders

Episode Date: July 21, 2024

A former Mayor with 28 years of law enforcement experience has been charged with first-degree murder in a triple homicide. In this episode of Body Bags, Joseph Scott Morgan will break down the weapons used in the murders and the possibility that one of the victims died while he was on the phone with 911. Dave Mack will try and explain what happened four days before the shooting  that may have led to the murders.    Transcript Highlights  00:00:00 Introduction people seeking power  00:02:12 Discussion ex-mayor suspect triple homicide  00:07:45 Discussion Triple homicide, 911 caller goes silent on call  00:12:21 Talk about different types of guns  00:17:35 Discussion suspect shows up with multiple weapons  00:22:12 Discussion triple homicide occurs four days after event that led to it  00:27:14 Discussion of defense strategy for shooting three people  00:33:17 Talk about suspect showing up armed, left home enraged  00:38:26 Discussion of victims shot with different guns See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Body Facts with Joseph Scott Moore. Many times we wonder why certain individuals choose a particular profession. There's any number of motivations behind it. Maybe it's a generational thing. Maybe you're trying to listen to your own inner voice and you go down a path that no one had ever expected. But then there are those individuals that they seek out positions where they can be in power.

It doesn't really matter that they don't have much substance to them or that they don't bring anything edifying to the table. We're going to talk about a case. Actually, it's dismissive to say a case. It's not singular. It's cases. And the reason I say cases, we're going to talk about a triple homicide involving one such

individual who possibly sought out employment as a law enforcement officer so that he could quote unquote be in charge

say Morgan why would you say that he law enforcement officer he's going to be in charge. So Morgan, why would you say that? He law enforcement officer, he's going to be in charge. Yeah, I guess you could question that. But, you know, this guy was not only previously a law enforcement officer, he was also a sitting mayor. The only difference is, is that with him, he's a triple homicide suspect. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Bags. Dave, don't you hate to be around folks that are, I don't know, self-endowed with power, I guess.

It's always been the measure to me that if you have power and you choose not to wield it, that you hold it in reserve. It's always the quiet person in the room, isn't it? They say that's the most dangerous person in the room that has power, but yet they choose not to overstep the boundaries of good taste. That's the person I'm concerned about. But you get somebody that's bombastic and really full of themselves. Those people are kind of nauseating to me. Well, you get the old thing of the loudest person in the room is the weakest and the inverse, of course, the quietest person is the strongest.

If you're truly strong and powerful and know who you are, you don't have to be loud. As a matter of fact, you can just listen, you know? Oh, yeah. Remember Uncle Pauly and Goodfellas? Oh, yeah. He never wanted people to hear what he was saying, but he never wanted people to hear what he was being told either. That was the power of being in charge. Pauly didn't even own a phone.

He didn't even own a phone. There you go. They had to do all the calls from the pay phone, you know. Yeah, you're right. Continuing that thread, the narrator says that Polly didn't move fast because Polly didn't have to. But today's case, cases, again, I hate to keep saying case in the singular, that we're going to be discussing. Well, one case with three victims. There you go. Yeah, yeah.

It is one case. However, I will let people know that, first off, obviously, we have three homicide victims here. And folks might think about this and maybe have never considered it. Did you know at the medical examiner's office and in the coroner's office, if you have like a multiple homicide, we assign separate case numbers or what in the medical examiner world are called a session numbers to each individual. And it's not just a matter of honoring their humanity or anything like that. It's to keep them separate because with three homicide victims, guess what?

That's three counts. Yeah. That's three counts of homicide. And so each individual has to be stood up for essentially. And that investigation is separate. It's separate, but yet they come together. And, you know, when you're talking about an individual that commits an act like this, you really have to wonder where their mind is. And you know what I thought, Dave? I got to tell you, I had this moment when I was reading the story and I was thinking anybody anybody could have fallen

into the sights of this guy if you had just shown up at that single standing structure um up there in South Dakota where this case cases take place if you just showed if you if you'd been on the stoop you'd be dead as well well. And I thought a lot about that. I remember thinking a lot about that as an investigator many years ago. And it's a horrible thing, but it was always very chilling. You know, the old adage of there but for the grace of God go I. It applies in that, you know, that you're protected for some reason that you weren't in that space and that happens with multiple homicides many times people just absolutely go nuts and

they start randomly killing people dave well jay ostrom is the former mayor of centerville south dakota he's also a former sheriff's deputy and at 64 years years old, his wife, Victoria, tells him that she had been drinking with a neighbor and the neighbor forcibly kissed her and showed her his genitals. That's where all of this begins, having drinks. And Jay Ostrom allegedly grabs his gun. Well, don't know if he had to grab it from the house because his wife said he had guns in the car. And he decided, I'm going to teach that man a lesson about messing with another man's wife. And if you remember Leroy Brown, he was mean as a junkyard dog. Well, Jay Ostrom, he was he was as mean as a junkyard dog. Well, Jay Ostrom, he was as mean as a junkyard dog

and anybody in his wake was going to be in trouble that night, allegedly. So you've laid it out perfectly, Joe, that if you had been on the stoop, as is kind of the case here with the three victims, the one who calls 911 actually had been shot

and actually during the 911 call dies or at least cannot communicate yeah he goes silent but uh isn't that isn't that a chilling thing can can you i've always you know one job i would never want to have and god bless them i've had to talk to them for years. It are the people in headquarters that are, um, that are part of the people that work the radios relative to the police. And many times they'll be housed together. Okay. It depends upon the size of the, of the department. You'll have people that are receiving nine 11 calls. They'll'll kick it over to dispatch or sometimes they're one in the same. That job to me, as tough as being a death investigator was and the things that we see, can you imagine being in this? And it is. It's like this big, dark room that's light,

that's lighted with the glow of all the computers and the keyboards and all of that stuff. And you hear all of these things on the other end of those lines. People that are in the worst conditions that you can imagine. And then you don't really know what happens. I can't imagine that operator that was on the other end of the line, and she's getting information from this guy. And he's asking for help and then all of a sudden line goes dead silent and that job in and of itself i don't think i could do it it it it's a very difficult i mean god bless everybody that works in 9-11

it is a tough tough job i don't see how you decompress from it, you know, after, after doing the things that they do. Yeah, it's tough. I think that's why, I think that's why when a 911 operator makes a mistake by being cold or whatever, and we hear that they get judged very harshly because it doesn't happen often. You know, they actually do maintain an even strain. They have to. And I'm with you. It's shocking. I can't imagine what you do. And I can't imagine the helpless feeling because when somebody calls 911, they're not calling it to order a pizza. They're ordering it usually because something worse than they ever imagined has happened to them. And they are the ones having to make the call. And in this particular case, the victims here, Joe, are all three young men.

Paul Frankis, his brother, Zach Frankis, and Timothy Richmond. Paul Frankis is 26. He's the one that is alleged to have been inappropriate with J. Edward Ostrom's wife. Now, I've been trying to find out how old Victoria Ostrom is. I went to her Facebook page and looked at some things there, and she does look younger than her husband, but I can't find an actual age. And the reason I'm saying that is because, again, Paul Frank is 26. His brother, Zach, is 21. And the other one victim, Timothy Richmond, is 35. I believe Timothy Richmond was in the wrong place at the wrong time and was just, as you mentioned,

kind of sitting on the stoop when everything went down. But Jay Ostrom was out for revenge. He was out to teach a man a lesson. And if you're, you know what, Joe, if you show up with a bat or a golf club or something to threaten another man for doing something inappropriate with your wife, and all you do is get into a shuffle, a scuffle, you know, pushing and shoving. That's one thing. But he shows up with not just one type. He has a shotgun, but he also has a pistol. He's got multiple weapons here. And the reason we know that. And an AR platform.

Exactly. AR platform. Exactly. AR platform rifle. Yeah, as well. And that goes to this, again, people are going to talk about it, a good point that you make. We could argue, I guess, extensively about a baseball bat. And if you're demonstrating deadly force with a baseball bat, you can sell it to certain people. But if you're trying to sell it to me, comparing that to even a.380, which is a very tiny, one of the smaller calibers of pistol rounds. And that's one of the pistols mentioned here, just so we can be clear. Yeah, yeah,.380, yeah. And to be clear, okay, Joe, well, let's back up for a minute. You mentioned the AR platform.

What specifically are you talking about? Well, you know, people use AR, and for whatever reason, they think that AR means assault rifle. That's not a real term. I was in the military. We never used assault rifle. You know, it's just a term that has been manufactured. AR actually originates from the name, which is a brand called Armalite. And Armalite is, you got to go all the way back to, you know, the first M16 rifles, which are, you know, it's like in the family tree of these AR platforms.

The M16 rifle is the first thing that our troops had that was kind of a new space-agey kind of weapon back during the Vietnam era. Because, you know, we're coming out of the first weapon that we had that was really introduced as a infantry weapon in the Vietnam era was the M14, which is just kind of a variant on the weapon that was used in World War II, which was the M14, which is just kind of a variant on the weapon that was used in World War II, which was the M1 Grant. It's just that, you know, M14 fires 7.62 or like a 308 round, like a deer hunting round. Very bold, robust. Some units still carry them, but really bulky, wooden stock, and it would warp. the stock would actually warp in vietnam because

it was a wooden it was a wooden but the the the m16 the armolite didn't because it's made out of a composite now they would foul really easily and they'd have jamming problems. We had jamming problems even when I qualified with it way back in the early 80s. But the round is so much smaller. It's 5.56 millimeter or 0.223 caliber, which are two different measuring systems. And when I say 0.223, to give you an idea of the size of the round itself, we're talking about the diameter of the round. That's in the same family as a.22 caliber. It's just that you've got more power behind it. It's not like a tiny little shell casing like you have with a.22 rifle. This is a small caliber round that's being driven out by tremendous amount of propellant. And so the velocity on this thing is pretty remarkable.

But the damage is questionable when you compare it to the 7.62. Wait a minute, let me back up because you mentioned velocity. How does the velocity versus the size of the round account for the injuries caused? Meaning, is a bigger round at a slower velocity going to do more damage than a small one at a fast velocity. Right. Yeah. And so, you know, there are many accounts of people being shot in combat. And you can even hear this from spec ops guys that have had to carry the 5.56.

You know, they can put in these guys are really good at what they do. I feel so stupid for not knowing Armal light rifle was what they are stood for. I really didn't know that. Yeah. And so it's, you know, it's just, it's one of those convenient terms that political types have used, you know, to try to reemphasize this idea of assault rifle. The 5.56 when it's fired, I'm using these terms interchangeable 5.56 and two,

two, three, and there is a slight difference, but it's in, I'm using these terms interchangeable, 5.56 and.223, and there is a slight difference, but it's in the same family. You know, when there are many accounts out there where people, even in spec ops community, where they're putting rounds on target with 5.56, and they're having to shoot multiple times, because sometimes, you know, individuals will not even be aware that they've been shot. It's such a tiny ground. Whereas if you get shot with a 7.62, which is the equivalent of.308, which is like Grandpappy's deer hunting rifle. If you're going to take down, you know, a deer or maybe an elk, it's going to be sufficient to the task.

It's going to deliver that energy through a round that has much more mass. You know, and we hear that about stopping power. You know, people will use that term. And it's really kind of people don't really know what that means, the stopping power, because I don't know that it's necessarily measurable as many people think, but I do know this. I do know that from what we're being told, that this fellow, this former mayor and former police officer in not just one, but two separate separate jurisdictions he showed up ready for any number of possibilities because it wasn't just one weapon he apparently showed up with three so apparently dave what i am understanding

is that we've got about four days that elapsed between the time that jay ostrom's wife was approached or, as she had put it, kind of exposed to this individual that she was drinking with. Interesting thing, though, that I have discovered is that the exposure that she was subjected to took place, Dave, actually in her own home. It took place as J. Edward Ostrom was asleep in his home. He's asleep. His wife is still there drinking with a man. Can I interject something here real quick? If the shoe were on the other foot and it were Kim and I, my precious wife, and I was sitting up in my house drinking with some woman from down the street. And literally, this person is from down the street, and my wife is sleeping in the house.

I can tell you, I don't know what would happen, what she would do to the woman, but I would have hell to pay. I can tell you, you know, and I wouldn't I wouldn't do this. You know, it's just it's an odd set of circumstances to me. And the fact that that he was in her space and in in Ostrom space as well, that that gives us an indication that there's a pre-existing relationship here. That this guy felt comfortable enough to be in Ostrom's domicile with his wife, and they're all partaking. Ostrom's asleep. Now, we don't know if he passed out or not, but alcohol does play a role in this, which we'll come back to in just a moment. But don't you don't you find this dynamic a bit a bit odd, Dave?

When people drink with neighbors, they tend to drink. Because, you know, I was going to say tend to drink to excess because they're not going anywhere. You know, you're. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what we're dealing with we are dealing with neighbors here that have been neighbors for a while and they are just they're drinking socially what have you and jay goes to bed in his own house and this continues on victoria tells him about it later on again not knowing all of the ins and outs of their relationship. I mentioned earlier when we first started that I'm trying to find out more about Victoria, the wife, because Jay Ostrom, just so you know. Jay Ostrom was involved in law enforcement as a career for a long time. Long time. And he knows better than to approach the situation with a weapon.

He knows better. And I think he'll be judged harsher because of this. Dude, you are absolutely on the money with this. Even if he's no longer a practicing law enforcement officer, he knows where the guardrails are, Dave. Yes. And most adult men know where I say men, but most adults know the guardrails. Most people in relationships know there's a boundary you don't cross. OK, you have you're in the man's home. You're having drinks, you know, socializing. That's what we're dealing with here. socializing having drinks now jay ostrom

goes to bed then this allegedly happens where the neighbor forcibly kisses the man's wife and exposes himself i don't know what their relationships are but i don't that's it's and that's a curious thing you know it took okay so let me just so so our friends understand what we're talking about as far as the time element. And this goes to something I've always wanted to discuss with you. I got to tell you, it's something I learned in an undergraduate criminal law class. Dig this. Let me lay this on you. I think you might find this interesting.

But let's lay this out first. So this event, this drinking event in this home, this was on May the 23rd. And we're talking May 23rd, 2024 here. It was four days. when Jay Ostrom takes up these weapons and goes and perpetrates these crimes. Four days. Allegedly. Allegedly. Thank you. You're right.

You're right, Brother Dave. Allegedly. Allegedly. I got to lay something on you. I love this little aside that I learned in an undergraduate criminal law class that I took in New Orleans so many years ago. And it was taught by a guy that was a former prosecutor in Orleans Parish. And it had to do with state law in Louisiana. And I want you to dig this language. He was trying to give us an indication. You know how there are degrees of homicide.

You've got first, second, and that sort of thing. And this idea of, and there's an old term that they use in Louisiana, by the way, is it's not part of English common law. Their criminal code is based on Napoleonic code. It's the only state in the U.S. where it has that that that designation. At any rate, there's a term that they use to kind of delineate between a crime of passion. And something that required a bit more thought. And it's called, dig this, it's called the heating and cooling of blood. And let me give you the example that he said.

If a guy comes home in the middle of the day, and I think he had worked a case like this, or he had defended or prosecuted a case like this, and he cited this example several times. He said, if a guy comes home from work in the middle of the day and finds his wife in bed with another man, and there's a baseball bat right there at his fingertips and he grabs the baseball bat and beats them both to death by law his blood has not had sufficient amount of time to cool okay same scenario only the guy comes into his house sees his wife in bed with another man you know maybe looks to the crack in the door turns turns on his heel, walks out the door, gets in his car, leaves, goes down to the local watering hole, sits there and has a beer. Sits there, gets back in his vehicle, drives to the house and then walks in the house, grabs a baseball bat and beats him to death.

He's had sufficient amount of time for his blood to have cooled. The trick here is this. In this particular case, when did she tell him about this? Did she tell him about this the next morning, on the morning of the 24th or whatever it was? Or did she say, honey, this happened back the other night on the 23rd and, you know, do something about it or this happened in that amount of time? Actually, she told him that night. She told him the night this happened right before it happened. That's when she told him this happened on the 23rd while they were drinking at the Ostrom home while Jay was asleep.

But she waited until the 27th when they were having a few drinks again. And that's when Victoria Ostrom tells Jay Ostrom what had taken place the other night. And that's Jay immediately got on. He saw red and she said he went, quote, raging out of the house. Now, remember, Joe, it's not a long drive. It's across the street. These people are neighbors. Five doors down.

Or is it that it approximates that doesn't it? Something like that. And they're sociable neighbors. So, yeah, it wasn't like he had a long time to cool off before he got there. He's seeing red. They did say he smelled of alcohol that night. So you have to know you don't have to assume I'm going to assume because he has, you know, smelling like alcohol that he and his wife are drinking. She said, hey, the other night, the one to tell you this, but this is what happened when you went to bed and boom jay's mad

wow so had he had sufficient amount of time for his blood to have cooled or had it was boiling is boiling raging as he leaves the house joe holy smokes so that that puts this in maybe a different light you think about about the alcohol, and we're not excusing this, but what I'm saying is I think that moving forward with the prosecution in this case, that's something that's going to be factored in. Alcohol is going to be factored in as well. Because, you know, any defense attorney worth their salt is going to say that, you know, that, look, this guy was under tremendous pressure. He's just been told this. He thinks his wife's been sexually assaulted and he he wants he wants revenge for it. But, you know, you think about three guys, you know, three guys, it would it's it's one of those things where you think about, well, wouldn't he target the specific person that had done this?

Well, maybe he didn't have clarity of mind. Maybe he was so enraged he just went into a blind rage. Let's see if they use the old blackout defense. I think you were talking about the other day, Dave, where people say, yeah, I don't. They remember everything except the moment when they committed the crime. I can remember I trimmed three of my eyebrow hairs and a nose hair. And then I blacked out and woke up five minutes later with blood all over me and a dead person in the trunk of my car. I don't know how it happened.

I don't know how it happened. Exactly. Shoot or no shoot. That's kind of the litmus test under stressful situations that police have to learn when to engage a target or not. There's so many factors that go into using what's specifically referred to as deadly force. Police are trained on this. As a matter of fact, you have to go to the range several times a year to qualify with your weapon. You're put through testing. They'll take you to a shoot house or maybe a digital shoot house, and you're having to make these decisions. This is not a world that Ostrom would not have been familiar with, Dave, you know, over all of these years in law enforcement.

And of course, as an administrator, a mayor of a city, he has to deal with these things because there's incidents involving the police force. Now, you mentioned that this just happened in May of 2024. We're not talking about something that happened 10 years ago. You know, Joe, in 1994, as a police officer, Jay Ostrom shot and killed a man. He was a suicidal man with a gun who pointed it at Jay Ostrom's partner. Jay Ostrom shot the man and killed him. In 2000, there was a lawsuit filed by Patrick Wayne Dalby, who was the suspect in the robbery of a clothing store. He filed a suit claiming unnecessary force, claiming that Ostrom struck

him several times around the back, head, face, and eye with the rifle and fired two shots and by hitting him in the head and the eye caused him to lose his left eye. Well, a judge looked at it and said, nope, he did exactly what he needed to do. Jay Ostrom, not guilty of anything, sent the man to prison. The other case was in 2001, a year later. In this case, it was a domestic dispute where a woman shows up at her sister's house and she said, my husband had been beating me. The sister calls police. My sister just showed up at my house, husband beating her. He's on his way over here. While on the phone with police, the woman's husband shows up. Jay Ostrom is sent out there to protect and serve, right? He gets out

there and the man, Michael Owens, is going kind of nutso. And Jay Ostrom and his partner end up shooting the guy 10 times and he dies. Well, they file a lawsuit against Jay Ostrom and his partner saying they used unnecessary force, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, a judge ruled on the side of Jay Ostrom. So two times he shoots men dead and another time he beats a guy to the point where he loses his eye.

And all three times, judges ruled on the side of Jay Ostrom. Is that what Jay Ostrom is used to now? Doing what he feels is necessary and being backed up by a judge. Did Jay Ostrom do what he felt was necessary and expects a judge to rule on his behalf? I don't know. But it could be, Joe. He could be conditioned to believe that he can get away with this.

There's a pattern that's developing here. And I'm not saying that every cop doesn't have a pattern that comes along with them. You develop these behaviors along the way. And what's kind of interesting about this, Dave, and it can happen anywhere, don't get me wrong, these are very small jurisdictions this guy's working in. It's not like you have a vast number of opportunities that are going to present themselves relative to that. And I don't know if that's necessarily an accurate measure, but when you, you know, you think about that and you think about how small the population is where he's practicing, he was actually practicing as a deputy sheriff in Wyoming.

And then he comes to South Dakota and winds up practicing in law enforcement for a number of years. And then that's when he becomes a mayor. You know, he's elected to the mayorship of this town. Centerville. Yeah. And he winds up being charged or sued, I guess is the more accurate term, for sexual harassment,

which I think that that suit originated with the chief of the police in the town. Yes, Rachel. It was a female, Rachel Kottman. So I don't, you know, we talk a lot about establishment of boundaries and this sort of thing. And that brings us in a way back to those incidences on the night of May the 27th. Are we talking about a person that's just like a ticking time bomb?

I don't know. But when he, he left that house that night after his wife had told him about what happened, she, she's not the one that reached out to the cops. She, she stayed in the house.

Was she fearful? Was she, was she, you know, the house. Was she fearful? Was she, you know, did she suspect anything? You had stated that she said, well, he had guns in his car. Right. But, you know, he wasn't showing up at the house to have a game of patty cake with anybody. He showed up at this house armed with multiple weapon platforms do they asked her you know did he get did he grab a weapon before he left that was their because she said he left in a rage and it's obvious question well did he like go to the gun cabinet was he you know gunning for bear and she said no he just left he was in a rage and left or did he make a comment

you know i'm gonna kill those so-and-sos. I'm going to do this and that. But if you're already armed and, you know, it's interesting because he chose the three weapons involved here are so vastly different. You've got a 380 pistol, which many people will refer to as a pocket pistol. As a matter of fact, our friends that are listening right now, if you'll just extend the palm of your hand just for a moment, the palm up, a.380 in many configurations will literally fit in the palm of your hand. And I'm not talking about putting your finger through the trigger or anything. I'm just talking about, you know, and some people refer to it as a pocket pistol.

Some people, the old term used to be a belly gun because it's easily concealable. And it fires a.380 cartridge, semi-automatic. That means that it doesn't have a wheel. For people that are familiar with revolvers, it's got a little indwelling magazine. It can hold, dependent upon the platform, it can, you know, it might hold eight rounds, okay, or it might hold seven rounds. Okay. Then he's got a shotgun, and we don't know the gauge of the shotgun.

Presumably, it's probably a 12-gauge. That's the most common gauge that's out there. It's what cops are most used to. Right. And then he's got an AR rifle. Now, there are many different calibers for AR platforms. You can have the standard 5.56, which I mentioned earlier, but they make AR platforms now that have 308s, which is the original M14 round. So it it's just the shape of the rifle but he showed up with all of these platforms david i'm i'm and if you'll permit me when you work a crime scene and you've got three rounds,

most of the time you're not thinking you've got one shooter. And it's mind-blowing that you show up and you've got three separate types of calibers or gauges that are at the scene. When he was finally arrested, he had spent 12-g gauge shotgun shells in his pocket. And that was fascinating to me because that demonstrates to me that he has an awareness of what he's done. He's going around and he's picking up spent shell casings. And not only did he have spent shotgun shell casings, he had rifle shell casings spent in his pocket. So that goes, you know, they stated, you know, after he had been arrested that they smelled alcohol on him.

And so any defense attorney that's going to try to say, well, he was inebriated beyond the point of understanding what he was doing. Well, actually, counselor, it could be argued that he had an awareness to go back and pick up any kind of rounds that were in the house. Why would a cop do that, Joe? Hey, man, he was thinking, yeah, I need to get the evidence because if he kills all of these guys, all three of them die and there are no witnesses picking up those shells, he can tell any story he wants to tell. Yeah, you absolutely can. And you're removing the next step you would think probably would be to get rid of the weapons at that point in time. You're going to cut them up. You're going to melt them down. You're going to throw them in the river. You're going to do whatever it is that you have to do to put as much distance because this guy would have had a basic understanding of forensic practice and what we do in the crime scenes.

And, you know, when you have this kind of event, and this is a very, I know I use this term a lot. It's very dynamic, which what I'm saying is a lot of movement is going on. And you say, well, Morgan, it's kind of obvious. You're damn right it's obvious because you've got a guy that's actively shooting in a small space in a house, and there's three adult males. Now, we don't know what their status was. We don't know if they were inebriated. We don't know if they were passed out sleeping. We don't know if all three of them were aware and he lined them up against the wall. But

here's the problem. He's swapping platforms because we know that one fellow was shot with a shotgun because the guy that actually called it in stated there was a man shooting a shotgun in the house. He's on the line. This guy actually, as you had mentioned, actually died, Dave, as he's on the phone with 9-11. And this scene is going to be an absolute mess because I can't imagine that he picked up every single shell casing. And there will be evidence that you can find. There will be trajectories of these rounds that are passing through bodies, passing through walls. And when you see this thing demonstrated in court, which it will be, I'm sure, you're going to have all of these trajectory

patterns that are running all over the place because these guys are running for their lives. And this individual that shows up, Ostrom, he's targeting each one of them. The question is, was he moving or were they moving or were they both moving at the same time? Because you've got multiple possibilities here. And so these trajectories are going to be wild. Most of the time when you walk into a scene and you've got a single person that's dead and it's as a result of a gunfire, you've got one central person that is shooting at the other person, maybe the other person shooting back, but that's it. Now, mathematically, you've increased the workload here because you've got three individuals. You've got three individuals you got three individuals that

are all of their own mind moving about or trying to get distance between themselves and the sounds of these weapons going off and it's all inside the house now because of the fact that we know there's a shotgun we know there's a rifle and we know there's a small pistol yeah revolver all right did he come in the house with all three of those? Or did he like shoot the guy with a shotgun and then go back to his car and get another one? Did he use these multiple weapons to make it look like something else had transpired besides just one angry man killing three men? Was it? I'm trying to think of in any scenario one person going in mad i get it grabbing the

shotgun i get that but you know you go in the house blam blam blam we got three dead guys but he's got three dead guys and three different types of weapon no isn't that fascinating that that he would show up because you know to deal a, and we've talked about this in other cases, I know there was one that kind of stands out in my mind where you had an individual that was carrying both a shotgun and it was actually an AR platform weapon. And in the military, they talk a lot about transitioning to weapons because most of the time in the military and in like tactical law enforcement as well, you'll have your primary weapon, which is an MP5 or it's an AR platform type of weapon that you see individuals carrying. Same thing in the military.

They carry M4s, which is essentially an AR. And then they have a sidearm, you know, that's in the holster on their hip. Okay. Pistol. All right. This guy shows it with three. How do you transition between, oh, I know what it was, what I was thinking about, I was thinking about Murdoch because, you know, there was a – Oh, wow.

There was – he had a platform that was a rifle platform, and there was a shotgun involved in this. And one of the things that people were trying to wrap their mind around, you know, at the kennels and all those sort of things, was him transitioning from one weapon to the other, from one weapon system to the other weapon system. And it's a very bulky undertaking. I think this is an interesting point that you raised, Dave. Does he show up with three weapons because he feels like he needs three weapons? Or did he show up with three weapons because he was going to try to make this appear to be something other than it was? I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body Packs. This is an iHeart Podcast.