Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BOMBSHELL ARREST IN D4VD CASE, WITNESS REFUSES TO 'RAT': RECORD EXEC GRILLED BY GRAND JURY

Episode Date: December 11, 2025

The president of "D4vd" David Anthony Burke's touring company is grilled by a deputy district attorney in front of a grand jury. The grilling focuses on why he didn't call the cops after the body of Celeste was discovered in his client's car. A grand jury is hearing evidence in the death of Celeste Rivas Hernandez.  Robert Morgenroth, the general manager of Mogul Vision, D4vd's record label, is also the president of Zara Brothers Travel, D4vd's tour company. Reports say Morgenroth testifies all day before the L.A. grand jury. At one point, with people in the hallway, Morgenroth comes out into the hallway and talks to his lawyer so loud others can hear. He says, referring to Beth Silverman, the deputy D.A. presenting the case, "She was very pushy on why I didn't call police." Also, a female witness in the Celeste Rivas death case faces arrest after refusing grand jury testimony in the D4vd murder investigation. Reports suggest LAPD's Robbery Homicide Division is considering D4vd a suspect in the alleged homicide of Celeste.  Joining Nancy Grace: Philip Dubé  - Former Court-appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law; Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy; X: PhilipCDube, IG: PhilipDube, YouTube: PhilipDube3922 Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker: When to work on a relationship and when to walk away,” and Featured in Hit Show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock; Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, X: @DrBethanyLive Rob Dick - Bounty Hunter, Private Investigator, Former Deputy Sheriff for Sacramento County Sheriff's Dept., Owner of Renegade Investigations, and Casey Anthony's Former Bodyguard Dr. Kendall Crowns - Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Host of Podcast "Mayhem in the Morgue," and Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University) Alexis Tereszcuk - Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories' Scott Eicher - Digital Forensics Expert, Founding Member of the FBI’s Cellular Analysis Survey Team (C.A.S.T); Historical Cellular Analysis Expert, Former FBI Agent of 22 Years, and Former Police Officer and Homicide Detective with Norfolk Virginia Police Dept. (having served 12 years and has worked several missing persons cases); Currently with Precision Cellular Analysis handling Criminal, Defense and Civil Cases Dave Mack - Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories' See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A bombshell arrest in the D4VD, a K.A. David Anthony Burke case as a witness refuses to rat out David Burke as a record executive is grilled by a grand jury. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

I want to thank you. Thank you for being with us. David is finally being viewed as a suspect of teen girl Celeste's death. You're going to have to have somebody rat. How can she be missing all this time, even possibly dead since the spring? An arrest is imminent in the D4VD case as a witness is refusing to testify in front of a grand jury. What does that mean? Now, unlike a defendant who cannot be forced to testify, a witness can be put in jail if they refuse to testify.

Joining me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we are learning tonight, straight out to Alexis Tereschuk, crime stories investigative reporter. Alexis, this is what I know. I know it's a state's witness, which means it's a witness that will testify against David Anthony Burke, aka D4VD. It's a female witness against Burke who is refusing to testify, and she has lawyered up. She's got the same lawyer as the record exec that just got a, let's see, technical legal term in front of the grand jury. Just wait, guys, until you hear what he said. That said, she's lawyered up, female testifying against D4VD, refusing to come in,

and she's about to end up in the can, in the pokey, for her recalcitrance. What do you know? Well, you're exactly right. So there has been a grand jury that has been called in Los Angeles County. And Robert Morgan Roth, who is an executive who's in charge of David's record label, he testified in front of the grand jury, and he was heard in the hallway outside the grand jury room, talking to his attorney saying, I didn't even feel like I needed to be calling the point. the police after she was found dead because we were on tour. I didn't want to jeopardize

the tour. But within that same situation, the district attorney, the deputy district attorney, she's very angry. She says to him, to his attorney, I need this woman to come in. She needs to be here. And you know what? I'm about to issue a one to go have her arrested. Wait a minute. Stop right there. Stop right there. I asked you about the witness getting arrested. You went to the record executive, and that's not, it's the gist of what he said, but I want to state, and we know this, because he went out in the hallway. I mean, this is going to make our attorney joining us today, Philip Dubay, do a backflip. You got to witness, DeBay, and they're in a secret grand jury proceeding. Then they come out in the hall and unload, and everybody is standing around.

hearing what they said. That, nothing secret about that. So the record exec, he goes out in the hall after getting a by the prosecutor in front of the grand jury and he says, quote, I said, I feel like I didn't have the responsibility to call police. I just wanted to get on with the tour. So forget about the dismembered little girl and your client's Tesla. Forget about that.

Let's just quote, get on with the tour. Thoughts, Dubay? Well, first of all, in the state of California, independent of mandated reporters, if you have observed either a murder, a rape, or a lewd act on a minor, you are duty bound under California law to notify the police. If you do not, it is a criminal act, and it's 152.3 of our penal code. The problem is, is that it's only a six-month misdemeanor for a recalcitrant witness not to come forward or to notify police. So there's really no teeth in the law.

Now, having said that, anybody who doesn't want to put them up, they can... Hey, hey, hey, hey, look around you. Look around you. Are you at your office or your luxury home? Where are you right now? I'm in a studio Okay, do you want to trade off your fancy office

which I've heard all about or your very sophisticated pad and go sit in the pokey for six months? It may mean nothing to you but I doubt a record executive or anybody else wants to go sit on a metal bench for the next

six months. So that's what a contempt charge will get you. Yeah, and I don't understand why, at a minimum, they just don't take the fifth. If you don't want to answer questions or you think you're going to be incriminated, at a minimum. What are you saying? The witness is not taking the fifth. People that are going to be charged or have criminal culpability, they're the only ones that can take the fifth.

The Fifth Amendment, the right to remain silent, guaranteed under our Constitution. A witness, unless they're going to land in jail. criminally charged themselves cannot take the Fifth Amendment. I get it, but you would look around. Do you think any of us just fell off the turnip truck? Let's show him who's on the panel. Philip Dubay obviously is with us, high-profile lawyer out of L.A., this jurisdiction.

Dr. Bethany Marshall, joining us, renowned psychoanalyst out of L.A., Rob Dick, private investigator, Dr. Kendall Crowns, Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County, Alexis Torres-Chuk. She's probably covered more cases than meaning lawyer. have ever tried, and Dave Mack, who is joining us remote, we all know that only a defendant can take the fifth. So the witness absolutely can be thrown in jail, and I've got to tell you,

I've done it myself, except it was a victim. Now, this is what happened. It was a little girl victim who was afraid to testify in a sex trafficking case, and she disappeared. the night before trial. I was up the entire night, 5 a.m., my investigator, Ernest, found her, and I said, arrest her. We did not put her in jail. We put her in a nice hotel, and he stayed with her outside the door until the time for her testimony, brought her to the courthouse. She testified, and then we drove her wherever she wanted to go. But she was in our custody. I don't like arresting victims, but a witness? Oh, yeah, totally. I would, absolutely arrest a witness that wouldn't testify for the state?

You know, when I was a new attorney and I needed witnesses in, we had the capability of getting body attachments for witnesses who defaulted. At one time, I had to haul a priest in. The next morning, they had him in the lockup with the collar and the whole thing, and we went off on each other. You would have never know that that man was a man of the cloth. But I needed him in and I had the court issue of body attachment and they hauled him in. Now, having said that, I don't know what this witness's counsel is doing out there,

than maybe looking like a potted plant, but you would think that that lawyer would get on the phone to that witness and say, look, you're at a minimum looking down the barrel of a misdemeanor for not reporting this thing. At least come in. If we think you're going to be incriminating yourself or failing to report, we can take the fifth. But don't default on the subpoena, because if you do, you're only making things worse for yourself. You know, the lawyer for the witness, the female witness, and let me tell you, a female prison, female jail is no cake walk. The big dollhouse ain't all that. You ever been in a ladies' prison? It's just as bad as a man's prison. Nobody wants to go there. What? It's a snake pit.

It's a snake pit. It is. So the same lawyer dupe is representing the record executive, who was also D4VD, David Anthony Burke's manager. The record exec is Burke's manager, and he is the one, so this lawyer, Evan Jenis, is representing both of them. I don't know if that's a conflict of interest or not, but that's a civil issue, but she's on the lamb, she's refusing to rat. The L.E. law enforcement is looking for her right now. Have fun with that rancid tuna fish sandwich for lunch lady. Also, I want to get back to the record exec. He actually says He actually says, well, yeah, I knew about her body being found in my client's car, but I didn't think it was my responsibility to call police.

I just wanted to get on with the tour. So forget about the little girl rotting in the trunk. That's basically what he said, DeBay. Yeah, and let me tell you, if that young lady, that child was under 14 at the time, and he had knowledge of either a rape, a murder, or a lewd act on that kid, it, that is incriminating for him not to report it. It actually creates a legal duty, as I said earlier upon him, to report it. And if he doesn't, he faces the pains of a six-month misdemeanor.

Now, having said that, the law requires that he actually observe it, as opposed to have knowledge of it. So I would absolutely defend him on him. No, no, no, no. You're talking about the record exec. He didn't observe anything but himself in the mirror. the person that is under threat of arrest is the female. Hold on just a moment.

Let me go to you, Dave Mac. Let's clarify. Dave Mac joining me along with Alexis Tereschuk, Dave Mac, Crime Stories Investigative Reporter. Dave Mac, the person that's getting arrested is the female witness. And I'm betting, I'm betting that it's somebody that lives in that house that basically shacks up in there and knows what happened. Nancy, we were given a huge clue on this a couple of weeks ago when in some of our reporting, it was that the police had run that search warrant inside the house, and they were able to determine which person in that house had been sleeping in which room. Remember, they talked about how D4VD had this very tight inner circle.

Well, there are three or four people that were with him constantly and stayed in that house with him. One of those people, I guarantee you, is a female that they're trying to get in court. There was also another one, another kit that we had. And it goes back to when they said he had help. Whoever cut up Celeste had help. It went out, remember on the long drive in the middle of the night, out in the middle of nowhere, had help. So we've got a couple of hints here. I said who it is.

The scary part of it is that the same attorney representing his manager also represents, this unnamed female that they're trying to bring into court to testify in front of the grand jury. Okay, why do you see that as a problem, Dave Mack? One lawyer can represent two people. I just, it seems odd to me that you would have other individuals not in the industry that would have the same type of attorney. The LAPD has been working on a timeline of activity for Celeste and Burke. And an insider with the police investigation says they've been able to determine that in the

spring of this year, Burke took a secret trip in the middle of the night to a remote area of Santa Barbara County. Burke remained in the area for several hours. So it's entirely possible that the female witness was along on that trip. We don't know who she is, but she is willing to go to jail rather than testify in front of a grand jury about or against David Anthony Burke. D4VD2. Dr. Bethany Marshall, joining us. We're now psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction, this jurisdiction, author of Deal Breakers. You can see her now on Peacock and find her at Dr. Bethanymartial.com. Dr. Bethany, what do you think about that? You know, Nancy, has she ever been a mother, a sister, a daughter, somebody who has loyalty to another woman?

This is what I'm wondering about this potential witness. You know, when I have underage patients come into my office who report some type of abuse, there's a maternal instinct that kicks in where I really want to think about how to protect that patient. I'm a mandated reporter. I have to call the authorities to let them know that something nefarious is going on. And who is this female witness that she wouldn't be loyal to another woman? And you know, Nancy, we're talking about a crime here. But to be honest with you, there was a lot going on leading up to this crime, right? This is a young woman who's living in another man's household with multiple residents in that household. And, you know, I'm thinking about her being brainwashed, her being abused, sex,

assaulted, all of that. Who's witnessing all of this and why are they not coming forward? You know what, Dr. Bethany Marshall, you just said something very important. let me go back to you Dave Matt crime stories investigative reporter a grand jury is usually 16 to 23 people depends on your jurisdiction taken from the voter registration logs and they meet

once or twice a week depending on the size of the jurisdiction and all they determine is are we do we have enough evidence to charge the individual they're not passing on guilt or innocence why is that important it's important because a grand jury doesn't determine guilt or innocence. All they do is determine, have I heard enough evidence to think this should

go to a jury? Is it possible that he did this crime? That's all they're looking at. And then they do a yay or nay. That's all it is. Usually a grand jury presentation lasts under 10 minutes per case. You can bring on one witness, typically the lead detective, because in grand jury, hearsay, is admissible. The detective can say, well, this witness told me this and this wasn't and told me that. This is what the medical examiner said. The body was in his car. He was the last one with her. Bam. That's how it works. Then it goes to a petite jury of 12 to decide guilt or innocence. So to you, Dave Matt, we know it's a woman. We know it's someone that's going to testify for the state. There are no defense witnesses at grand juries. So here are our choices.

As Dr. Bethany just pointed out, Dave Matt, it could be someone that lived in that home that knows how Celeste was killed. It could be somebody that moved the car back and forth. Remember Steve Fisher told us over and over and over. And he knows because he has amassed the ring doorbell camp from all the neighbors, many of the neighbors, and he knows when the car was moved. He even knows who was moving at one time. Okay? Maybe it was a woman that moved the car for D4D4VD. Maybe it was someone, as you pointed out, Dave Mack, that went on that late

night trip into the hills and stayed there for hours and hours. You know, there's speculation. She was buried or hidden at one location and then later put in the car trunk. Maybe she was there for the trip. Maybe she moved the car. Maybe she lived in the house.

But whatever she knows, Dave Mac, it's damning to David Anthony Burke. And she doesn't want to testify. Who could she be? What does she know, Dave Mack? Well, I think it goes back to that very first search warrant when the police were in the house. They were trying to find out who lives in this house because we know it's more than just Burke. And the police said they were able to identify, or maybe it was Fisher, but they were able to identify the inside circle, not the people who just

travel around with Burke, but we're talking about the people who shared that rented house with him that had their own area, their own room, their own nightstand. They identified three different people, I think. So you've got any one of those who was there on a daily basis, used that house as their own place to live. But also, I believe, that person was with Burke in the middle of the night as they went up to up north to Riverside County or San Bernardino, County, Santa Barbara County, wherever they happen to have been, out in the middle of nowhere, because we were told he was there for several hours. We know they've got this digital footprint. They've got the markings for where they were. And I say they, because we're going to assume here

that this person they're trying to bring in front of the grand jury knows the details on what took place that night. We've got him driving out, staying in one spot, and driving back. There's one other individual besides Burke that can tell us what happened, and that's who it is. And this person, this female, does not want to do it for whatever reason, culpability. I don't know. But that's what we're up against right now. Well, hold on just a second. I'm going to go to Alexis Tereschuk on digital information on the female witness, but to Philip Dubay, if she knows about any of the things Dave Mack and I have just identified, did she take that late night trip out into the woods for they stayed out there for hours and hours.

Did she move the car? Was she one of the individuals that moved the car? Steve Fisher, I believe, has been told by LAPD to shut his pie hole, and he's not going to stay on air who he saw moving the car. But he knows. But the car was moved several times, maybe not by the same person every single time.

So why would an individual just go move the car around unless they knew what was in the trunk? She could have lived in the home. She could have gone on that late-night trip. if she could have moved the car, she could know how Celeste died. Do you think she's not testifying because she thinks she's going to get charged? Because if she's an accomplice, they could go ahead and charge her. If they wanted to, they would not be calling her as a witness if she is the target.

Well, here's the thing. Even if that were the case, her counsel can demand that she be immunized. I mean, that's the whole point. If you're a target or you could be a target, then you either take the fifth or you seek immunity. And that's typically what the DAs do if they really want to get the kingpin, if you will. But I really think what's going on here is that this young lady either has Intel or she is afraid to dime out the golden goose, if you will, because he is the cash count for everybody involved. If he goes to prison, they don't eat. There is an old expression, and that is, if a

concert doesn't close, I don't eat. You know, it's like a real estate transaction. You don't close escrow, you don't close the contract, nobody gets paid. And let me tell you, he is the golden juice. Okay, can I ask you, Dubay, what good is that money, that golden ticket, that paycheck, that gravy train? What's that going to do for her behind bars in the big dollhouse? I understand that. A lot of these kids don't have perspective. They live hand-to-mouth is what it is.

You're not kids. They're in their 20s. That's a kid to me. I'll hold down three jobs and prosecuting in my 20s. Stop it. No, that's a kid to me. So do you think that's why she's not coming forward? She'd rather get arrested?

See, no, no. If she were a target, she would not be being forced to a grand jury. Her lawyer, who we know who it is, would have already said she wants immunity or she's going to take the fifth. That's not happening. The severely decomposed dismembered remains found in a Tesla owned by singer-songwriter David identified as Celeste Rivas reported missing more than a year ago. Lake Elsinore, California. She was identified through forensics, and a cause of death has not been determined.

Crime stories with Nancy Grace. David, David Anthony Burke, is finally being viewed as a suspect in teen girl Celeste's murder. Police sources believe Celeste was killed back in the spring. Her body. found in his Tesla truck, what has changed? What has happened? Will this result in murder

charges? An arrest going down in the D4VD, David Anthony Burke case, what does it mean as a grand jury meets in secret? Earlier, we were discussing digital evidence. Straight out to Rob Dick, joining us, bounty hunter, private investigator, former deputy sheriff, Sacramento County, owner of renegade investigations. Rob Dick, thank you for being with us. Philip Dubay, Alexis Tereschuk, and Dave Mack had brought up a very interesting point. The witness that the prosecution, a female prosecutor,

is hell bent on getting in front of that grand jury may have traveled with David Anthony Burke, may have lived in the home with David Anthony Burke, may have moved that Tesla for him. There's any number of reasons the prosecutor may need this witness and she will get the witness make no mistake about it

even if it takes six months for the witness to sit behind bars and stew she will get the witness that said how can digital forensics prove what this witness knows for instance

her phone you think she went anywhere without her phone not happening if she was moving that car around they have that triangulated if she went on that trip in the middle of the night. You can see her phone traveling along with David Anthony Burke's phone or with his Tesla. You know, it's a Tesla. It's got all sorts of navigation data embedded, right? How can digital forensics nail this witness? Yes. I mean, there's going to be a complete outline. They'll be able to figure out exactly

where every party that was involved went, how long they were there, they're going to be able to track them and completely show who was involved. You know, and one other last thing that I don't think we're bringing up, you know, she may have seen exactly what happened and is afraid that could happen to her. That is certainly a possibility. Following up on what private investigator Rob Dick just told us, joining us now is a digital forensics expert, Scott Eicher. Listen to this.

He is a founding member of the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team. How does it work, Scott? There's so much digital evidence that we can pull it from computers. We can pull it from cars. We can pull it from phones. We can pull it from iPads, anything,

watches, you know, ankle bracelets, anything. So as you get all that data and preserve it with the phone company and then pull it into a massive timeline locating the car, the individual. You can put those things together with the female, with the victim, with the car, at the house.

You can't build that story and that visual for the jury and grand jury to see, yes, these people were there and these people were not. But how does the triangulation process work? Can it be attacked on cross-examination? Although, of course, Scott, as you know, in a grand jury proceeding, there is no defense attorney. This is not a guilt-innocence phase.

This is just putting evidence to a grand jury to determine, is there enough for an actual indictment? So the witness is not going to be cross-examined. But how can triangulation be attacked by the defense? Because I believe from day one, LAPD, please tell me this is true, LAPD, has been a mass. cell phone, a nav system, all sorts of digital forensics to prove this case, and that means they have to find the witnesses. How are they going to do it? Find out who was in the home. What about a data dump? What about a stingray that could show me whose cell phones were in that home at the time we believe Celeste Rebus was killed? How would that work, Scott?

But let's attack this each different way, triangulation. And now you're thinking first is that you can get a specific point on the earth. Well, it depends on what kind of data they're getting from the phone company or from a vehicle or whatever. Sometimes it's GPS that needs at least three satellites to be able to give you a good point on the earth. you have distance from tower, measurements from cellular towers that can be very accurate if you have multiple towers giving you that data information. And then sometimes depending on how late you're getting the data, you're just getting at what tower the phone used or the car used or something like that, not how far from the tower. So it really just depends what data they got at that time because, you know, remember, they work working a couple weeks behind when the victim's body was found.

Now, you had mentioned the stingray. Now, the stingray is actually just a device to locate where phones are now, not where they were a month ago, six months ago. So I'm not going to be able to use a stingray to get all of the cell phones that were being used in the home on that night. Curious. From Clipsop, David, on TikTok.

So what are the other possibilities? Well, for one thing, the nav system on a Tesla, Scott, a nav system on the Tesla tells you so much. For instance, what, Scott Eicher? Well, the nav system is very, very accurate on the Tesla. It's GPS, right? And they actually have a cell phone in the car also, so if you can get several different things,

and all the telematics about the, car itself how fast it was moving when it was moved who was in the car based on the cameras we've seen all that already you know provided uh or should have been provided and put and downloaded from the car now you asked about how do we know who was in the house back in historical time that's getting tower dumps that's getting information from the phone companies historically of what phones or devices were in a general area of that residents at that time. Again, it's dependent upon how long the phone company keeps that data on how specific that data is. And hopefully there's data that they can a tower dump. So you get that

from the actual closest cell tower. Several towers. Alexis Tereschuk, there was a key card found in a sewer drain, a drainage outlet near where the Tesla was parked. Okay. This is from Run It Back 7777.7. It was on Reddit. It says Tesla. So that's the key card, we believe, to D4VD's Tesla. Where was that found, Alexis, Teres, Chuck? In a gutter near his Hollywood Hills home on the ground. Interesting. So it was closer to his home, Alexis. Yes, his Hollywood Hills home, yes. Not in Santa Barbara and not at the impound place where the car where her body was found in the car, but near his home. Interesting, Scott Eicher, that tells me a lot.

It tells me that the car was left and the key card to the car was abandoned a distance away. Why? Scott Eicher, what does the key card have to do with the Tesla? What does it do with a Tesla? Why do you need a key car? Well, initially you need a key card to actually get into the vehicle and then set up, the driver's phone to be the actual key. So once you get the key card,

you get that from the dealer when you buy the car, then you set up using the key card to use the phone as the key for the rest of the time you're using the Tesla. And you can set up several different individuals to use that Tesla. And then you can put that key card in a safe place if you need to and just use the phone. but every once in a while, you'd have to bring that key card out

if you're going to add drivers or something to that effect. Philip Dubay joining us, high-profile defense attorney out of this jurisdiction in L.A., I bet you as a defense attorney just hate digital forensics because I bet you money that this witness who's getting arrested because she refuses to testify in front of the D4VD, David Anthony Burke, grand jury, I bet they've got her every which way, but upside down

with digital forensics showing, Philip, what about it? Yeah, it is just that. It's a digital footprint. It puts her there. Nobody goes anywhere without their phone. It's like a woman's purse. You don't let it out of your sight. So no grand juror, let alone a trial juror, is going to buy the fact that the phone wasn't

on her. And yeah, the girl must be terrified. She's petrified for a couple of reasons. Number one, she doesn't want to get arrested. She doesn't want to get implicated. And she doesn't know immunity from apple butter. She doesn't even know the right lingo to use. She's got a lawyer.

Yes, she does. Well, okay. Then hopefully that lawyer is, in fact, invoking her rights so that nothing criminally happens. Now, the question I think that the grand jury will have is whether or not other people were involved in the crime. David Anthony Burke is being investigated as a suspect in the death of teen girl Celeste. He has not been cooperative throughout the investigation. To Alexis Tereschuk, Crime Stories investigative reporter, the medical examiner's office is at war with the LAPD.

It's very rare that that happens. Usually they are in lockstep. What's happening? Why has LAPD told the medical examiners to shut their pie hole? They believe that they are releasing too much information and that this is going to affect the case, affect the specific details, whether or not she was actually completely dismembered, whether she was decapitated or not. They don't want any of this information out there

because this would be showing the people that are involved what they have and they don't want the public knowing and getting involved in all of this. But the medical examiner's office has been talking. So there are conflicting stories out there. Was she dismembered? Was she frozen? Was she decapitated?

Each side is trying to keep the wraps on this, but the LAPD is very mad that these details are coming out. Joining me, Dr. Kendall Crown's Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth. He is the esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU and the star of a hit podcast, mayhem in the morgue. Dr. Kendall Crowns, thank you for being with us.

There's a lot made of whether Celeste Rivas was frozen. Okay. We know from just common sense, let's see the Tesla belonging to David Anthony Berk, D4VD, sitting in the impound lot. It sat there for days, Dr. Kendall Crowns. It's from our friends at KTLA. Now, given that amount of time, plus the amount of time, it sat out on the sidewalk. It sat out on the sidewalk on the street and that Ritzie neighborhood, millionaire mansions,

for days and days being shuttled from one spot to the next. So, Dr. Kendall Crowns, by the time her body was found in the car, in the impound lot, she had been dead for days and days and days decomposing in a trunk. Given that fact scenario, which we know to be true, Dr. Kimball Crowns, could you still tell whether she had ever been frozen? I accept what the LAPD says. She was not frozen or partially frozen at the time she was found. That photo was showing you of the Tesla with her body in it there at the impound.

It's from our friends at KTLA. But could you, as a medical examiner, look at her body tissues under a microscope and tell if she ever had been frozen? So when bodies freeze, you can actually get formation of ice crystals and the body becomes hard as a rock because the majority of our tissues are made up of water. So if you get below freezing, the body becomes an ice cube. But once it thaws out, there's really no changes that happen if this. freezing occurred after death that you can look at and go, this body was frozen, unless there's still ice crystals in the heart or in any other blood vascular areas. Other than that, there'd be no way to tell if she was frozen and then thawed out and then, you know, dumped. But if she had been

alive and frozen, there are changes there, but not after death. Trying to digest what you just said. I believe you said if she was totally thawed out, which obviously she was, there's no way to tell if she ever was frozen. Correct. Okay. You don't get freezer burning on the ice cream. Got it. A lot has been made as to whether she was decapitated.

But Dr. Kimball Crowns, no one is a person. proposing the fact that she was dismembered. Typically when I've had a case where a body was dismembered, the hands and the head are cut off to avoid identification. In this case, if she was that decomposed, how would the identification have been made? So if they dismembered her to try and get rid of evidence of identification, like you said, of course, the hands with the fingerprints, the head is for facial identification,

but you can't get rid of the DNA. Even if you drain the body completely of its blood, you can still get blood smears from the spleen or the muscle or things of that nature. And then you take that DNA from those organs, and then you do a comparison with the family. you can still identify the person, whether there's a head or hands or not. Even if it was just a section of the leg, like they only found a foot, you could still do a swab of the tissues in that area, usually musculature,

and get a DNA sample to do a comparison with known family members. Dr. Kendall Crowns, isn't it true that even if a body is dried out, almost mummified, you could get DNA from bone marrow or from the inside of a tooth? or you could take a body part such as the liver, blend it, liquefy it, and get DNA from that? Yes, that's correct. All those are scenarios in which an individual has gotten to the point that they're mummified or dried out. You can still get DNA from them. Bone marrow is a great one because the femur or the big bone in your thigh still has plenty of bone marrow and the ribs as well.

The teeth, what you're talking about is the pulp of the teeth is still very, it can be present for a long period of time. It's a good source for DNA. And then finally, blending up the tissue, we usually use the spleen because it's so vascular. You can get a lot of blood from it even in a mummified state, but you can use the liver or other organs if they're more intact. That photo was showing you of the Tesla with her body in it there at the impound. that's from our friends at KTLA. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. And Dr. Kendall Crowns, a law has been made

that the LAPD and the Medical Examiner's Office is at war. The medical examiners, all medical doctors like yourself, do not take kindly to the PD telling them to shut the hay up. But the truth is, Dr. Kendall Crowns, we don't know if these leaks have come from the medical examiner's office. Isn't it true?

Medical examiners in large, much-pollitan areas, have a fleet of their own investigators. Atlanta did. In fact, some of the best investigators I ever knew were from the medical examiner's office. A leak could come from a medical examiner investigator. It could come from, somebody making copies of documents.

It could come from someone within the LAPD about the medical examiner's reports, and therefore people think the leak is coming from the medical examiner's office. There's really no way to identify who's leaking, but the medical examiner's office is the one that's being spanked. That's correct. I mean, the medical examiner's offices usually have their own set of death investigators so they can do an unbiased death investigation and not rely on police.

information to determine cause and manner of death. But usually big offices have upwards of over 100 people. And big cases like this, that information people can talk about it, the death investigators, the autopsy technicians, the doctors themselves, and information can get out in the public. But you're correct. The police also can be guilty of leaking this information because they get the file as well. And they're another large organization with multiple people and people talk. and this information gets out there that's the problem with high-profile cases is they always create high-profile problems because so many people want to know the information and people love to talk about oh guess what i saw at work today so you have to be very careful

in these situations about what you say to whom and you have to keep your mouth shut and if the police is telling the medical examiner's office to shut up well you got to do what you're told and you've got to work as a team because they have to do their investigation, and if we leak information, it can actually color and bias the entire investigation and cause a lot of problems. Philip Dubay, high-profile lawyer, loose lips, sink, ships. Just like that witness, the record exec goes out in the hall and starts whining. Someone could have been having a beer, and somebody ever hears what they said, talking about, hey, guess what happened at the medical examiner's office today? Guess what I read in this report that I copied? It could be

anybody that's blabbing. It doesn't have to be a paid informant. It doesn't have to be official. Anyone could be leaking this information. Of course. And that's usually how it happens. We see it in the coroner's office. We've seen it in the DA's office. And frankly, we've even seen it in the public defender's office over the years where somebody sort of casually mentioned something. And before you know it, it becomes, you know, like this big, huge story. And it takes on a life of its own. And then before you know it, it's, it's taken out a proportion. Do you remember Kobeberger? Yes. Somebody blabbed and suddenly it was a dateline special. I know. And the court opened up a special investigation. They were going to get

to the bottom of it. And I think the only reason why they let it go is twofold. Number one, he pled. So the case was over. But number two, I think under Idaho law, even if you do get to the bottom of it, it was only a misdemeanor. To invest. all this money in a misdemeanor, it just wasn't cost it. I don't know why you keep saying that. It's not your end sitting in jail. An arrest to go down in the D4VD, David Anthony Burke case, as I like to call it, the Celeste Rivas case, a witness refusing to testify, why, what does she know?

Rob Dick has a theory, what? I think it's not so much worried about going to jail. I think it's worried about what she's seen and the same thing happening to her. I mean, it's a possible fear in her own self. she could end up like that. You know, Bethany Marshall, let me follow up on one investigator, private investigator, Rob Dick said,

afraid it's going to happen to her? Well, you know what? She wasn't afraid to go along for the ride to, for instance, lean with the mansion, be on the dole, eat out at fancy restaurants, go to concerts, afraid of what? You know, Nancy, she's complicit in some way.

When witnesses do not want to come, forward, it's usually because they have played a role in the crime. Maybe it's just a silent witness, right? Maybe it's just somebody watching Celeste being abused, but she saw something. And you know, the term house of horrors, we're talking about homicide here. We're talking about a dismembered body and a frunk, but what we're not talking about is the house of horrors. what was going on in that household up to this homicide and this dismemberment? Were women being used as sex slaves? Were women being dominated?

Were some women dominating other women? Were people using drugs together? Were people watching sadistic pornography together? And then, you know, sadistically hurting each other. We don't know what was happening in that house. And I think that's going to be really important for us to uncover. as this trial moves forward. So, in other words, Dr. Bethany,

another person stands by and watches what's happening to Celeste and does nothing. Let me remind everybody, Celeste was just 13 years old when this whole thing cranked up with David Anthony Burke. She's dead, dismembered, turning into nothing but goo. And someone doesn't want to testify

really? Someone that potentially stood by and watched all this happen and did nothing? That person, Bethany? You know, Nancy, I'm a mandated reporter as a marriage family and child counselor, and this is a psychoanalyst. If I see something that's being done to a minor or to a child, I have to report that. I don't have to investigate it. I just report the suspicion that something is happening. We have all these people in that household seeing, I'm sure, pretty terrible things going on and not one person is calling the police. Not one person is calling 911. Not one person is talking to Celeste. What about her parents? Did any of these witnesses call her parents? No, everybody is just standing by silent. You can run, but you can't hide.

That female prosecutor knows you, your name, your DOB, your SSN, social security number, your address, your mama's name, your brother's name, your boyfriend's name, your tag number. Go ahead, go in, go under oath, and tell the truth. A little girl is dead, and you're refusing to testify. And you know another thing to D-4PD, David Anthony Burke's manager? Shame on you. You actually said out in the courthouse hall that you, you're not. You didn't have any duty to call and report a dead girl in a trunk.

All you wanted to do was continue with the tour. You know what? Ponschus pilot, just washing your hands and looking the other way. It ain't working this time. If you know or think you know anything about the brutal death of this little girl, Celeste Rivas, please call LAPD 213. 486-6-890. There will be justice in this case.

213-486-66-68-90. You can either get involved, be a part of the solution, or you can stand back and do nothing and be part of the problem. Tonight, we remember an American hero, Officer Jesus Karana, of Paulier, PD, California, just 29. Killed in the line of duty, leaving behind his wife and a little girl. American hero officer, Jesus Corona. Nancy Grace signing off.

Goodbye, friend. Thank you.