Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BOMBSHELL BOOK: "WHAT HAPPENED TO ELLEN?" Bride Stabbed 20 Times Ruled Suicide

Episode Date: April 22, 2025

Ellen Greenberg was found dead in her apartment by her live-in fiancé, Sam Goldberg. She had been stabbed more than 20 times in the back, neck, and torso. Her death was initially ruled a homicide, but after a closed-door meeting, officials changed the ruling to suicide. For more than 14 years, Ellen’s parents, Josh and Sandee Greenberg, have fought to overturn that decision. Now, after settling two lawsuits, the Philadelphia Medical Examiner’s Office will reopen the investigation. The decision follows a sworn statement from a former pathologist admitting he was wrong to change the ruling from homicide to suicide. The Greenberg's do not believe Ellen commits' suicide and neither does  Nancy Grace. Her book, What Happened to Ellen? An American Miscarriage of Justice is out today. Joining Nancy Grace today: Sandee Greenberg - Ellen Greenberg's Mother, Twitter: @justice4ellentw, Facebook: @justice4ellenFB, GoFundMe: www.gofundme.com/f/justice-for-ellen;Facebook: #Justice For Ellen Benee Knauer  -  Author of "What Happened To Ellen?: An American Miscarriage of Justice"  Guy D’Andrea - Former Prosecutor in Ellen Greenberg Case, Attorney at Laffey Bucci D’Andrea Reich & Ryan  Caryn Stark -  Forensic Psychologist, Renowned TV and Radio Trauma Expert and Consultant; Instagram: carynpsych, FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice  Tom Brennan - PI Consultant for Ellen Greenberg's Family Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X: @JoScottForensic  John Luciew - Journalist for PennLive.com and The Patriot-News of Harrisburg, Pa.[ Specializes in true crime and cold case investigations for PennLive.com], Author: “Kill the Story;" X: @JohnLuciew        See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A bombshell book. What happened to Ellen? The bride-to-be stabbed 20 times, including in the back of the head, to the back of the neck, to the back, a horrible gash on the back of her head. How could that be ruled suicide? And why we want justice for Ellen. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Thank you for being with us. I see her now just on the floor with blood. She's not responding. I don't know. I can't tell. I can't see anything. There's nothing broken. She's bleeding. She may have slipped his blood on the table. Her face is a little purple. Regardless of what you may hear on that 911 call, there is no way that this young bride-to-be, a first grade teacher, slipped and fell on a knife 20 times. That did not happen. And according to many, many sleuths and many full-on experts, including death investigators, medical examiners, lawyers, investigators. She did not commit suicide. Absolutely impossible. Let's learn what we can

from the original 911 call. I walked to the night part and she got on the floor with blood everywhere. What is this, Russ?. Please come help. Oh, no. Oh, no. Please, Harry, please. Where is she bleeding from? I don't know. I can't tell.

No, you have to calm yourself down in order to get you some help. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I don't know. I'm looking at her right now. I can't see anything. There's nothing broken.

She's bleeding. Allie? You don't know where she's bleeding from? Allie? What's coming from? I think her head. It's everywhere. It's everywhere.

She might have fallen. Do you know what happened? She may have slipped his blood on the table. Her face is a little purple. Okay, hold on for rescue for her. Stay on the phone. Can't see anything. Straight out to Joe Scott Morgan,

Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, death investigator, with over 1,000 death scenes to his credit, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of the hit new series, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Okay, number one, can we just put this out there? Ellen did not slip and fall and get stabbed 20 times.

Can we agree on that right up front? There's no slip and fall in this scenario. But what I want to ask you about, I can't see anything. That was stated, wasn't there what, a five-inch knife sticking out of her chest still? Yes. Yeah, the one pictured right here that you see, Nancy, was still in place, or as we say in pathology, in situ. Which, of course, when Ellen's remains were removed from the scene, the knife was left in place so that they could observe it. He obviously, according to him, couldn't see it, but it's very glaring. It's even glaring in the scene photos as well, Nancy.

When I say five inch, I mean five inch handle and five inch blade. Would you agree with that, Joe Scott? Oh, yeah, absolutely. To Tom Brennan joining me, consultant for Ellen Greenberg's family, who has been on the case from the very beginning today out the definitive book, what happened to Ellen, an American miscarriage of justice. Tom Brennan, isn't that correct? Isn't the knife that was sticking out off her chest still embedded in Ellen's chest as she sat upright on the kitchen floor, slumped against the cabinets.

Five inch blade, five inch handle. Is that correct, Tom? Yes, it is. Yes, it is. I have a knife that is identical to the knife that was found on Ellen. You know, and what was happening in her life is just so poignant. I'm going to get back into the details of the forensics in this case, which I believe contrary to online critics, the forensics prove to me that this is not a suicide. I can't say it enough. What a miscarriage of justice this is. Her parents, Sandy and Josh, whom I consider to be friends at this point, have spent the last 14 years plus their life savings. They just sold their home to prove their daughter did not commit suicide. But forensics aside, which I'm going to go right back into, let me go to Sandy Greenberg. This is Ellen's mother.

Sandy, thank you for being with us on this very important day in our lives where the book that we have worked so hard on to force the district attorney to investigate this case, as they should have at the time she was murdered. Could you explain to everyone why this was such a critical time in Ellen's life, a happy time, a wonderful time that in my mind precludes any possibility of suicide. What was happening in her life that was so joyous? We had just sent out the save the date cards for the wedding. Everything was in place in terms of deposits for the location, the music, the venue, hotels. So it seemed to me like, you know, everything was organized and she loved her job as a teacher, but she seemed to feel she was overwhelmed at times. And I couldn't understand how you could be overwhelmed from first graders,

but that's what she expressed. Well, another issue, Sandy, you know, Sandy, I've never asked you after all this time, what were the details of the wedding? Where was the wedding to be held? What venue? What music? I can't believe I've never asked you that question. It was going to be at the Hershey Hotel, which is a lovely setting and located not too far from where we were living in Pennsylvania. And we picked out beautiful flowers. We were splitting the band with Sam's parents because they really, really liked this band. And we figured, OK. We had a wonderful wedding planner as part of the hotel who we became friends with because she was just so talented and capable

and we had gotten her a dress that was all taken care of I love the dress Sandy the dress is beautiful you missed the best part of the dress was the back of it. It had a big

beautiful rose material in the back. It was stunning. But thank you. I love the dress too. And I'm grateful. Where did you guys find the dress, Sandy? In Suburban Square in Philadelphia. Priscilla

something. A bridal shop. And, you know, to Karen Stark joining me, renowned forensic psychologist, TV, radio, trauma expert, consultant. You can find her at KarenStark.com. Karen with a C. Karen, with that backdrop, she was just sending out the save the dates. She was very clear to everyone that she loved the fiance, Sam Goldberg, that he was Mr. Right. They had dated a good chunk of time.

That backdrop, to me, makes it an even more stark event. Of course, you and I have lived through a lot of murders. I've prosecuted a lot of murders. You've helped me analyze a lot of murders, but very rarely with such a joyous, seemingly joyous backdrop as this, which makes the dichotomy in my mind even more sharp. In a lot of ways, Nancy, this is so inconsistent with what you would actually think of in terms of suicide, because you would have signs that somebody was actually having suicidal ideations. That wasn't happening with Ellen at all. And you just heard her mother, her mother who lost her one and only child, talk about the fact that she was not stressed except for things from her classroom, which really working with first graders, I can understand. But she didn't talk about it. Karen, hold on right there. Hold

on just a second, Karen, because I want you to analyze something. You heard Sandy and Ellen's friends have told us this as well. You know, let me go to my coauthor, Benet Nauer, who researched exhaustively, tracked down witnesses, friends from way back when, all the way going back to grammar school. We traveled to scenes. We spoke to experts. We tracked down so much information to prove Ellen Greenberg did not commit suicide. Benet Naur, co-author, What Happened to Ellen? An American Miscarriage of Justice. Benet, there was something else going on. And you heard Sandy correctly allude to it that her daughter

Ellen had always been and you went all the way back to middle school and elementary school friends had always been so happy-go-lucky carefree was how many of her friends described her she did great in school she went on to get a graduate degree and landed at this fantastic first grade class and an elementary school and loved it. But suddenly she became anxious, anxious just before, just before she was found dead. She asked her parents, could she move back home and quit her job? And I never understood if she was that worried about the first graders that she had always loved. She didn't want to leave. She adored them. Why not just quit the job and stay in the apartment she shared with her fiance. Instead, she wanted to move out. And that, that,

I don't know what her concern was, but isn't it true, Benet, that her mom and dad said, listen, you're anxious. Go see a therapist. And she saw a therapist and the therapist said, without Therapist said without question, this is anxiety. A lot of people have anxiety. She is absolutely not suicidal. Didn't that happen, Benane Hour? That absolutely happened. A couple of things. It was clear, according to her psychiatrist, that there was no suicidal ideation. But it is also true that Ellen was going through a lot of stress and anxiety

and did want to get seemingly out of the home that she shared with her fiancé. She not only asked her parents if she could go home, and they encouraged her to just finish the school year, she also asked her cousin Debbie about living in her house. She wanted to get away, it seemed, absolutely. But she did tell her friends when they asked why she seemed so stressed out that there was stress about school. It didn't seem to add up. But on the day that she died, in her very last moments, likely, she spent her time calling her students' parents to make sure the students had gotten home

because there was a nor'easter. It was a blizzard. And she wanted to make sure that they were safe and they had all arrived home. She seemed to have loved her job and those children. And so lots of things don't add up here, but she did absolutely entertain the notion of leaving her home. So Tom Brennan, while police did not contact those people that last spoke to Ellen before she was found dead by her fiance. You did. Yes.

Did the parents tell you what was her frame of mind? Yes. They said she was fine, that she called them and expressed concern over the kids, that in fact she wanted the parents to know that they were going to have an early dismissal and that they should be there have an early dismissal and that they should be there to pick up their children so she was fine and this is within uh two hours before she's found dead yes how i learned about that was there was considerable discussion regarding all these calls made from ellen's phone okay, and using a specific code. And what was being

said about it was she was going out of her mind calling all these numbers. Well, no one ever contacted any of those numbers. I did. And they were all parents of the children in Ellen's class. And the reason why she was making those calls was to contact the parents and let them know they were going to have an early dismissal, that they should be there to pick up their children. So even in the minutes, the hour before she's found dead, she's perfectly fine on the phone and she's contacting the parents of her first graders. Is that correct, Tom Brennan? Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Ellen Greenberg is a first grade teacher in Philadelphia.

At 27 years old, she and longtime boyfriend Sam Goldberg have just sent out save the date cards for their upcoming wedding. A blizzard is bearing down on Philadelphia and school has dismissed everyone early. And on her way home, Ellen stops to fill up her gas tank. Once she's home with her fiance, Sam Goldberg leaves around 445 p.m. to work out in the apartment complex gym. When Sam arrives back less than an hour later, the door is locked from the inside. Today, the definitive book on the murder of Ellen Greenberg is released. What happened to Ellen? All proceeds going to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

There is no pecuniary or money interest in writing this book. This book is intended to force the local district attorney to investigate this case after a long and painful saga her parents have endured. What was so shocking to me is that when Ellen's body was first taken to the medical examiner, uh, Guy D'Andrea joining me, who was a prosecutor in the DA's office who combed through Ellen's file and said, Hey, this is not a suicide alert. Nobody did anything. Nobody. Isn't it true Guy'Andrea, that when Ella's body was taken to the medical examiner, Dr. Marlon Osborne stated, ruled, it was a homicide. Then, obviously, with 20 wounds to your back, the back of your head, the back of your neck, even slicing the dura, D-U-R-A, the protective sheath around one's spine. Sliced. Yet she continued to stab herself. 20 stab wounds. It's unheard of for a suicide. That said, isn't it true? After Dr. Osborne ruled this a homicide, he had a closed door meeting with representatives from the Philly PD, from the district attorney's office and within the medical examiner's office.

And when that door was open, he went, oh, yeah, it's a suicide. It's taken this long to get that ruling reversed under threat of lawsuit. Finally, Osborne is now saying this is definitely not a suicide. What happened in that closed door meeting? Why did the assistant district attorney get immunity in this case? No one will come forward and tell the truth. That's right. No one will come forward and tell the truth. That's right. No one will say what happened in that meeting.

What I understood, whether it's true or not, the explanation given to me by the medical examiner's office is that the police convinced the medical examiner's office that the door was deadbolted shut and that no one could have entered, which we now know, of course, Nancy, is not true. The online haters are at it again. But really, Joe Scott, you've gone over this exhaustively. And, you know, I'm going to let in a moment Guy D'Andrea and B'nai Naur and John Lucy chime in on this.

But when his feet were held to the fire, when Sandy and Josh Greenberg sued the medical examiners and the city at the 11th hour, just before the jury was to hear the evidence and the M.A. was going to have to take the stand until what happened. He went, oh, you know what? I don't think it was suicide. This has just happened. But yet we've had no movement from the district attorney's office. So now the online haters can chew on that. The original medical examiner is saying it was not suicide. It's not just me screaming in the wilderness.

This is wrong. It's not just Sandy, her mother, screaming in the wilderness to whoever will listen. Now, the medical examiner who examined the body says it was not suicide when he was forced to. And I want you to explain to me in words we can understand, Joe Scott, we're not all death investigators like you. Why? We know this is not a suicide. There is a killer walking free that killed Ellen Greenberg. How do we know that, Joe Scott? Because I still hold to this day that this, it's an empirical impossibility for someone to self-inflict 20 stab wounds, some of which are rather deep, Nancy. And some of them directed, particularly you notice in this rendering, the back of the

neck, you've got intrusion that runs adjacent to the spinal cord. You've got one that goes into what we refer to as a cranial vault, which means the inside of the skull. You're talking about cerebellum at that point in time. And then, of course, you've got the final location in the chest where the knife is buried into the chest very deeply. What I always come back to, Nancy, is the fact that every time, every time you stab yourself or cut yourself, you're having pain centers fire.

And I've only had cases of self-inflicted stab wounds over the course of my career that have involved people that are in a, I don't know how else to put it. They're in psychological distress, almost like having a psychotic event. And there's no indication relative to this. The most troubling thing, though, Nancy, relative to Ellen's case for me, is not the stab wounds themselves. It's the absence of attention that was paid to all of these contusions that she, it's now turned out that she has all over her body, particularly, particularly those that are located on what is referred to as the anterior aspect of the neck here in this

position along her neck. You've got what would marry up in this position, almost like a C-clamp. You can see if you look very closely, you can see kind of this hemorrhagic formation. You know, when he did this initial autopsy, Nancy, you know what he said? The neck was unremarkable. Well, I don't know. I wasn't there for it, but I can look at that damn photograph and I can tell you, it's remarkable to me. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joe Scott Morgan, I want to follow up on exactly what you're saying. I've spoken in depth, of course, to Josh and Sandy, her parents. And Josh, Ellen's father, has always said that he believed that she was strangled as well.

Not that the COD cause of death was strangulation. It was not. It was the stab wounds. But another doctor, Dr. Ross, consulted on this case. And he found what you're talking about. And that is bruising to the strap muscles. He found it. You see it. Take a look. These bruise marks, which are very similar to finger marks are unrelated. That's important.

Unrelated to the stab wounds, those bruise marks to her neck and strap muscles around her neck are textbook, textbook signs of strangulation. Now, if I can see it on a TV monitor. Yes, please. Yeah. So where you see that V formation, which production does a great job with these, Nancy, you take a look at that image. You mentioned how her COD is not an asphyxial related kind of death. I submit to you that you can be choked and not killed, obviously. But that position to me, based upon cases that I've seen time and time again, that's a control position so that the hand of whoever perpetrated this was holding her in place by her neck, particularly with these injuries that you have on the front of her body, the anterior. And of course, the piece de resistance is where you have this knife that unfortunately

is buried into Ellen's chest. You know, how are you going to get her to submit to that? And I think that one of the ways you do that is controlling her by her neck. I agree with Josh and I agree with this other doctor that came up with this conclusion, Dr. Ross. You know, to Sandy Greenberg, this is Ellen's mother. Sandy, this is real. She could not physically have done this to herself. So remarkable reliving this every time. And it only emboldens me more. She's my daughter, but she could be, unfortunately, your daughter, your sister, your aunt, your niece. And this is so wrong on every level how the philadelphia establishment the solicitor's office have

revealed themselves okay do you know how to do cpr i don't okay i can tell you what to do okay until they get there i want you to keep her oh, does the CQI want to meet over the phone so they can... I have to, right? Okay, so get her flat on her back, bare her chest, okay? My ripper shirt off. Okay. Okay. Kneel down by her side.

Oh, my God. Allie, please. Listen, listen, you can't freak out, sir, because you can't... Okay, I'm trying not to, I'm trying not to. Her shirt won't come off, it's a zipper. Oh, my God. She stabbed herself. Where? She fell on a knife. Oh, no. Her knife's sticking out.

A what? There's a knife sticking out of her heart. Oh, she stabbed herself? I guess so. I don't know where she fell on it. I don't know. Okay, well, don't touch it. Joining me in an all-star panel, and I want to thank everyone for being with us tonight. On this occasion, the night of the release of What Happened to Ellen? An American Miscarriage of Justice.

Why is the book being written? Why is the book on the stands now? Why is the book on Amazon? Because we want this case investigated. The original medical examiner, Dr. Marlon Osborne, who wrongly ruled this a suicide after a closed door meeting with a prosecutor that has now gotten immunity on the case. Members from the police department who on the scene that night said, oh, yeah, looks like a suicide. Nothing's been stolen. Conducted no tests whatsoever. He first ruled the case homicide, changed it to suicide after the closed door meeting, has now ruled it's not a suicide. Why is there no mate on the Democratic presidential ticket for vice president, who has roped him into this thing because he has chosen to wash his hands of it and look the other way.

Well, that is not working for me, Shapiro. You just heard a portion of the 911 call where the specter is raised for the first time that Ellen stabbed herself or fell on a knife. Guy D'Andrea in the district attorney's office who combed through the file waved a red flag. This is not a suicide. Why wouldn't anyone listen to you, Guy? Yeah, that's a great question, Nancy. I have pushed and pushed and pushed while I was there. And it was right up until the time I was about to leave that they finally, meaning the medical examiners actually told me that they would acquiesce and change the report as soon as the findings from the independent medical examination that was done, which was done and came back what we all knew. And so I thought back in 2017, Nancy,

when this conversation happened, that this medical examiner's findings would be changed. So it baffles me to this day that despite them telling me that they agreed that this was certainly not a suicide, it was something else. Still, nothing has been done. But did nothing. Nothing. Physically speaking, forensically speaking, Joe Scott Morgan, I just want to clarify one thing. In addition to all of the stab wounds, including 10 to the back, the back of the neck, the back of the head, there's a gash on her head. Ellen was right-handed. How did she, what was the direction of that gash? Right to left, left to right. How did that work? Well, the gash itself is generated by sharp force. This is not like a blunt laceration.

Okay. So it appears to be that the knife itself sliced down through her scalp. It appears to be that it is going from left to right and probably from above to below. It's a very deep gash. As a matter of fact, it goes through what we refer to as a full thickness incised wound. So it goes down almost to the level of the skull. And an odd, a very odd finding when compared to all of these other injuries that she has over her body that were not slices or incised wounds. They were stabbed wounds, which are completely different, but yet can be generated by the same weapon.

In my opinion, it's that knife that's in her chest, potentially. Tom Brennan joining me, who has helped Sandy and Josh Greenberg from the get-go. Private investigator and consultant, Tom, I'm just thinking through all of the wounds and how impossible it would be. Statistically, when women commit suicide, they don't stab themselves, period. But certainly not 20 times and then keep on stabbing. But Tom, I'm curious. I find possibly the single most important piece of evidence to disprove the suicide theory is that not one, but two doctors state that at least one, if not more, wounds were inflicted post-mortem.

In other words, they didn't bleed. Her heart was no longer pumping blood. She could not have inflicted those wounds, Tom Brennan. That's correct. We had an analysis performed on each and every wound, and that analysis came out saying that it was biomechanically impossible for a human being to stab themselves in the back of the neck with the force that was necessary to cause the damage that was observed during autopsy. Sandy Greenberg question.

What is wrong with the online haters? Why are they so intent on insisting that Ellen committed suicide? I mean, they have no knowledge of the forensic findings. They never knew Ellen. They didn't speak to her friends or to you. How do you control yourself in the face of such adversaries? I just look at the entire picture. I want Ellen's name, or Josh and I would like Ellen's name clear, cleared. I don't, the haters, you know, statistically, you know, you have to have some of that, but I, I, I put it in a box and I put the lid on and I don't let it bother me at all.

I have a mission to accomplish and Ellen's parents are going to stick by her till the very end. And this is going to get cleared up. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The settlement has reached days after Dr. Marlon Osborne, who conducted the autopsy on Ellen Greenberg as the former assistant medical examiner with the Emmy's office, signed a sworn verification statement in which he says he now believes Ellen's manner of death should be designated as something other than suicide. Dr. Osborne ruled Ellen Greenberg's death a homicide when she was found dead in the kitchen of her apartment with 20 stab wounds about her head, neck, and chest, then for reasons known only to him at the time, changed the ruling to suicide.

To John Lucy joining us, our renowned journalist, PennLive.com and the Patriot News of Harrisburg, author of Kill the Story. John, you've got Marlon Osborne, the medical examiner at the time, state this is not a suicide. We know it's not an accident. We know it's not natural causes. That leaves two choices, undetermined and homicide. Basically, homicide. So what's the holdup? Why hasn't the district attorney's office begun the investigation? Well, this case has been kicked all over the place in terms of jurisdictionally. It was originally the Philadelphia DA's office. Then it went to the attorney general's office because the incoming DA had a conflict of interest that put it in now Governor Shapiro's lap for about four years. And now it is

in another county's DA's office. And they said they've looked into it and couldn't advance the case. But what would have been really interesting if the Greenberg won't advance the case. But what would have been really interesting if the Greenberg- You mean won't advance the case. Right. But what would really be interesting, if this case would have gone forward with Osborne flipping, if he could have been on the stand, then we know what happened in those secret meetings with police and prosecutors. We know how much pressure was being put on to change from homicide to suicide. And we know a lot more about how this investigation was bungled from the beginning when the police at the scene didn't do any of that forensic testing. They didn't hold the scene.

They allowed it to be sanitized and potential evidence lost for good. Exactly. You mentioned that it had been sitting with Shapiro, who has done nothing except cover for all of his cronies, which means there has to be an independent investigation. And I'm begging, begging the feds to please get involved in this miscarriage of justice. Speaking of Shapiro, who was that close to the Oval Office until Ellen Greenberg's name came up. Listen. We transferred it to the Chester County District Attorney, if memory serves me. They looked at it for a couple of years and they found the same determination as well.

It has to have some evidence with it, not just someone feeling different. But certainly if there's some evidence that this medical examiner has uncovered, I'm not familiar with that. I'm no longer the AG. If they have new evidence, new information, they should share that immediately. There you hear Governor Shapiro just passing the ball again. That's not his job. His job is to protect his constituents. And that includes Josh and Sandy Greenberg. Now I want you to hear William Trask, attorney. Now the city's agreed that the current medical examiner will reopen Ellen's case and look at the evidence of her manner of death

and come to their own conclusion. From our friends WPVI, so let me understand, Tom Brennan, what are we waiting on? It's been, okay, that decision came in February. It is now the end of April. We still haven't heard a thing from Philadelphia. Nothing. Why? What's the holdup? I mean, Tom Brennan, can we get real? Even if you did hear Philadelphia say, okay, we're going to look into it. Do you trust them? I don't. After all of this, we have to have an independent investigation. I have no faith in the city of Philadelphia at all. Okay? That's why when I began this investigation, I told Sandy and Josh, they are going to have to be extremely patient.

Okay, you know what, Tom Brennan? Before I try to rid Philadelphia or any other municipality of corruption, what I'd like to do is just start with justice for Ellen. If I could just get that underway. Guy D'Andrea, what do we have to do to put a fire under their tail? Everything, Nancy, has been done so meticulously from you to the Greenbergs to everyone working so hard. I do not understand to this day what is taking so long. You have Marlon Osborne agreeing that it is not a suicide, which we all know because originally he called it a homicide. I don't know what else they could possibly need to move this.

What are they waiting for? I mean, I know it's not a great answer. Guy, we can't go to the governor. We can't go to the AG. He was connected to the governor. So that takes me out of Pennsylvania. How do we get the feds to investigate? That's the only recourse, Guy. Yeah, the best way I think to get the federal authorities involved is highlighting potential corruption, right? Because that's what's going to give them the jurisdiction to come in and evaluate this in terms of whether it's a cover up, whether it's mistakes, whether it's corruption. That's what we need them to focus on. Because going all the way back to 2011, something went wrong many, many, many, many ways along the way. Sandy Greenberg, did you ever believe that it would come to this, that this many years later, you would still be fighting for justice for your daughter?

Ever in my wildest dreams did I think that there would be any kind of corruption whatsoever. That's why we have laws, and that's why we have law enforcement. I like to follow rules, and I never was prepared. I wasn't prepared, but I certainly am now because I'm not giving up. My husband's not giving up. And the more people see what's going on, they have to be concerned. It's tremendous public distrust right now. Sandy Greenberg joining me. Sandy, what is your message tonight? Do the right thing. I remember, Sandy, you told me that you believed that the authorities, if I could call them that, were waiting for you to either run out of money to fight this thing or to just go away and die.

And then it would be over for them. You told me that. The truth will speak for itself and the truth always comes out. We wait as justice unfolds. What happened to Ellen? An American Miscarriage of Justice goes on the stands and on Amazon today. Written with the help of my co-author, B'nai Naur,

we have left no stone unturned. All proceeds to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. We are fighting in every way that we can for justice for Ellen. And tonight, American heroes, there could be no one more heroic than Josh and Sandy Greenberg who have fought now nearly 15 years for justice in our American justice system. And as of tonight, they have not gotten it. We have daughters, sisters that we want to protect. They could not protect Ellen

from a killer, but they can protect her now. Please help them. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.