Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BOMBSHELL: BRIDE STABBED 20 TIMES RULED "SUICIDE" FAMILY BREAKS SILENCE

Episode Date: August 5, 2024

Ellen Greenberg is a first-grade teacher in Philadelphia.  At 27-years-old she and longtime boyfriend Sam Goldberg have just sent out "save the date" cards for their upcoming wedding.  A blizzard is bearing down on Philadelphia and school has dismissed everyone early. Home with her fiancé, Sam Goldberg leaves around 4:45 pm to work out in the apartment complex gym. When Sam arrives back less than an hour later, the door is locked from the inside.  Over the next 20 plus minutes, Sam pounds on the door, texts, and calls Ellen, but she doesn't reply. He breaks down the door at 6:33 pm. He finds Ellen on the floor of the kitchen, stabbed 20 times in the chest, neck, and head. As he is on the phone with 911, they ask him to perform CPR, and he tells them there is a knife still stuck in her chest. First responders arrive within minutes and Ellen is pronounced dead at 6:40 pm.  Police investigate. Initially, the medical examiner declares Ellen's death as a homicide, but later after meeting with police, that finding is changed to suicide. Ever since the day the medical examiner changed the manner of death from homicide to suicide without any explanation, Ellen Greenberg's parents, Josh and Sandee Greenberg, have fought to have the ruling changed.   Josh and Sandee Greenberg file a lawsuit against the city of Philadelphia, seeking to have the manner of Ellen's death changed back to homicide, or at least, undetermined, but the suit grinds to a halt when the Commonwealth Court rules against Josh and Sandee Greenberg. In the ruling, the judges acknowledged that the investigation of Ellen Greenberg's death was a “deeply flawed investigation” by the Philadelphia Police, the District Attorney’s Office and the Medical Examiner’s Office. But none of that matters because the court says Josh and Sandee Greenberg don't have standing in the case.  Attorney Joseph Podraza says they will take the case to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court.  The Pennsylvania Supreme Court is now going to hear the Greenberg's case saying  it will consider whether “executors and administrators of an estate have standing to challenge an erroneous finding recorded on the decedent’s death certificate where that finding constitutes a bar or material impediment to recovery of victim’s compensation, restitution or for wrongful death, as well as private criminal complaints.”  Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Sandee & Josh Greenberg - Ellen Greenberg's Parents, Twitter: @justice4ellentw, Facebook: @justice4ellenFB, GoFundMe:www.gofundme.com/f/justice-for-ellen?fbclid=IwAR1kH2pxp0jWpWBFD6tX9JfiWGCE-sKf9VrSGmjAltcz-g81mY7hVhqOcGo,  on Facebook: #Justice For EllenSandee: Tom Brennan -  PI Consultant for Ellen Greenberg's family Benee Knauer  - Author, "What Happened To Ellen?: An American Miscarriage of Justice"    Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", Twitter: @JoScottForensic John Luciew - Journalist for PennLive.com and The Patriot-News of Harrisburg, Pa., specializes in true crime and cold case investigations for PennLive.com, Author: “Kill the Story”, Twitter: @JohnLuciew   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Bombshell. A beautiful young bride-to-be stabbed 20 times, including in her back, the back of her neck, actually nicking the dura of her spinal cord, the back of her head, the top of her head, all over her body.

It was ruled a suicide, a bombshell in that case. And tonight, her family breaking their silence. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. She stabbed herself. There's a knife sticking out of her heart. How did he know immediately that Ellen stabbed herself? Because I would never think that my husband stabbed himself. I just wouldn't believe that. So what was on the crime scene that suggested a suicide? Now, hold on, hold on. I don't want to put the cart before the horse.

I want to listen to that 911 call because as many of you know of, because it takes a jury or a listener, such as ourselves, back to the moment the crime is discovered. In this case, it was ruled there was no crime, that it was a suicide. I find that very difficult to believe, and I'll tell you why. But first, listen to more of the 911 call. I decided to break it down. I see her now just on the floor with blood. She's not responding. Okay, is she breathing? Look at her chest. I need you to calm down. I need you to look at her chest.

It's really... I don't think she... Listen to me. Someone's on the way. Look at her chest. Is she flat on her back? She's on her back. Look at her chest and tell me if it's going up and down, up and down.

I don't see her moving. Okay, you are hearing the voice of Ellen Greenberg's fiancé, who says, and let me understand that I've got these facts correct, but joining me in All-Star panel, including Ellen's parents, Sandy and Josh. But to John Lucy joining us, a journalist for PennLive.com and the Patriot News of Harrisburg, also the author of Kill the Story. John, thank you for being with us. The workout room was in the building, correct? Yes, there was a workout room in the building. And just to get the semantics right, when he comes back up, it wasn't bolted. It was a latch similar to those you find in a hotel room that swings over and class. But you can open the door a couple of inches. You know, it wasn't a deadbolt. It was yeah, it was it was a latch like that you find in a hotel room. So even if he would have the key, he'd be able to get open the door a few inches.

And those locks, those latches are easily defeated. In other words, there was some debate in the physical evidence whether the door was actually kicked in to dislodge that latch, as he described on the 911 tape. That's one of the many anomalies among the evidence. And I want to be very clear. We are discussing why this case was not fully investigated. Why there are so many gaping, glaring holes in the investigation. Just for instance, the knife found plunged into Ellen's chest was never fingerprinted. The crime scene was not kept pristine. The apartment manager was allowed to bring in a cleaning crew before the scene was ever processed. Items such as Ellen's laptop. Wait, where's all the blood? There should have been blood everywhere, but there's not. Was there some sort of a cleanup? We believe the body was moved

before police arrived. That's what I'm going to bring in Joe Scott Morgan, professor of forensics. But the question is, why has this case been stymied? Why is it that the then district attorney's office, the then attorney general's office, the then police didn't want this investigation to go forward? Why did the ME then change the mode of death from homicide to suicide? Why did that happen? What happened in the interim? There's just so much. But in the last days, there has been a bombshell. I want to go to Sandy and Josh Greenberg, Ellen's parents, who I now consider to be my friends.

They are broken. They are practically broke because they have spent their life savings fighting this suicide ruling. And you can find them at GoFundMe, Justice for Ellen. Sandy and Josh, thank you for being with us. And I want to apologize right up front for replaying the 911 call. I don't know if you are desensitized to it yet, if you've listened to it so many times. But I want to apologize. I hate dragging you through that. But it's evidence we cannot ignore. Thank you, Nancy. My perspective on this whole thing is the fact that we have worked so hard and done so much and now reached a really crescendo or epitome of success in some fashion that this has made up or has softened the blow of losing our daughter. We still have that there,

but instead of being in the corner and crying or howling like I do when I go to the cemetery, we have done something, and we have done something that no one else has ever done in a case like this, and we've gotten farther than anybody in a case like this. So with the help of our attorneys, Mrroza mr tresp we are very happy today in some fashion i know that may not make sense to some people that we should be grieving we grieve but we also have a mission

we have a purpose and you can see in those pictures who she is recently i've had two lawyers one working for the state of new york and one working for the state not for the state one is a criminal defense lawyer tell me i should fire my lawyers i should stop spending money i'm not going to get anywhere and as we're going to discuss today, we have really got this case as far as we can go in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. I believe. I'm not an attorney either. Well, I have to say you do have a success today. For over 13 years, you and Sandy have been fighting this suicide ruling.

And in the last days, a momentous turn of events. You've been turned down by every court, by every prosecutor, you name it. Sandy, in the last hours, you and Josh, Ellen's parents, have achieved something that has never been done before in that jurisdiction. And that is you are going to be allowed finally after 13 years to challenge the suicide ruling. Does that mean it's going to be ruled a homicide? No. Does that mean that there is a person of interest or a suspect? No. It means that there may, may be an investigation of your daughter's murder. I never expected to get such great news and to advance this far, but I'm not giving up. She was someone that we were raising to be the best possible version of herself. And poof, she's gone.

We'll never be grandparents. We'll never have grandchildren. But I want to make her proud of us. I hope we are. I want to ask you something, Sandy. I remember the day that you and Josh and I went to the cemetery. And I walked up to where Ellen is buried. And you, but especially Josh, hung back. You could hardly even bring yourself to walk up to her plot in that cemetery.

Then you couldn't speak. Why is it you couldn't bring yourself to walk up to that headstone? It's hard to believe that that's where her body was laid to rest. And weeks after she had died in the wintertime and weeks after, I'd be driving at night and it's rainy and cold and nasty. And I think of my child's body lying in the box in the cemetery with all this nastiness all around her. And I just can't believe, you know, she's just been completely eliminated. This is not we expected to be at this time or through to get to this time. We wanted a quote unquote normal family. We wanted Ellen to be happy. We wanted her to have a relationship like we did

do. I mean, I don't know. We don't really discuss this very often, but most marriages don't last after an incident like this. And we're now going on our 45th year. Of marriage. Of marriage. So there's a lot here that doesn't speak, that we don't speak about. But we have fought for Ellen. Justice for Ellen is the term we use. It's a term. Maybe it sounds like a cliched term. I don't know how it sounds to other people.

But that's what we are doing. And that is something that we have, that keeps us, helps keeps us solid, real people together. And even as a team, it helps us as a team. I'm talking about with attorneys we work with, with Mr. Brennan, who we work with, with everybody. It keeps us going as a team. I'm talking about with attorneys we work with, with Mr. Brennan, who we work with, with everybody. It keeps us going as a team. 27-year-old Ellen Greenberg found dead inside her home. Multiple stab wounds to the back of her neck, but investigators insist she took her own life. I have learned so much about Ellen. I only wish I knew her in life instead of getting to know her

through autopsy reports and police reports and what friends say and what her parents have told me. This is a little bit of what I know. Listen. Ellen Greenberg is a first grade teacher in Philadelphia. At 27 years old, she and longtime boyfriend Sam Goldberg have just sent out save the date cards for their upcoming wedding. A blizzard is bearing down on Philadelphia and school has dismissed everyone early. And on her way home, Ellen stops to fill up her gas tank. Once she's home with her fiancé, Sam Goldberg leaves around 4.45 p.m.

to work out in the apartment complex gym. When Sam arrives back less than an hour later, the door is locked from the inside. Joining me is renowned forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a hit series now, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, this is going to be very difficult for you, but in a one-word answer, did Ellen Greenberg commit suicide?

N-O, no. Impossible, impossible. The first time I read this file, the first time I read an article long ago about the ruling, the suicide ruling, I believe I immediately called you because how can someone, anyone, stab themselves 20 times that we know of. And we also

know about the phenomenon of overlapping stab wounds where you stand, where someone is stabbed in the same spot. We're dealing with that with Brian Koberger's case right now. So there may be more stab wounds, but I'm going to go with 20. I'm going to go with 20. How can you stab yourself 20 times? And I had to write these down in preparation for talking with you this morning, Joe Scott Morgan, when at least three, at least three of the stab wounds could be deadly. For instance, stab wound E, as in elephant, certainly fatal. Stab wound H, happy, fatal. Stab wound number two, very likely fatal. Stab wound K had to be inflicted with a serrated abrasion. But I find that the wounds are diametrically opposed to each other regarding trajectory path. In other words, there are vertical stab wounds. There are horizontal stab wounds. There are oblique

stab wounds. One that bothers me the most actually too is the one basically on top of the head how do you attack yourself on top of your head and the wound where her dura of her spine is cut how do you do that to the back of your neck. And then last and most importantly, some of the wounds were inflicted post-mortem, after death. Her heart was not beating. How could she keep stabbing herself? I mean, how? The thing about stab wounds, Nancy, is that every time an edged weapon is introduced into somebody's body, a pain center fires. So over and over again, you mentioned the number 20. So and even for our listeners, they're following this case and many have for now lo these many years. You can identify with just a paper cut perhaps at

home and how painful that is. If you can imagine a serrated edge and that's what we're talking about, just like a steak knife, okay? And it's roughly a five inch blade. You have to do the conversion from metric, roughly a five inch blade. You've got this running along the surface. One of the very curious things, Nancy, is the fact that you have a blade that is entering the chest, and there's a couple of these along the way, where you're talking about the blade is going

from right to left, then from left to right. And here's one of the really curious things. There's one of these injuries that actually the trajectory takes it upward like that. Which one is that? Which one is that? I'd have to refer back to my notes at this point in time, Nancy. But if you go to H, for instance, it's four centimeters deep and you're talking about from left to right. However, if you go to. I've got to ask you a very fundamental question. Yeah, sure. And this is from a lawyer, not a medical professional.

Josh Sandy, Ellen's right handed, correct? Ellen was right handed. Yeah, yeah. We've asked that before. Yeah, yeah. OK, are we sure? because I've been told she's right-handed are we sure Ellen was right-handed? Yes. Okay that's all I needed to know. You sure did you sure did. Jessica Morgan some of the wounds are left to right which I completely understand if she's right-handed but But how do you do, in addition to all the steps to the back and to the top of the head and to the back of your neck, how do you

stab yourself, if you're right-handed, from right to left? It's almost empirically impossible to do this, Nancy, because you're talking about a readjustment of the blade on the plane that it's on. So you have to spin the knife in a particular direction in order to achieve this. And that's why I go back to this idea of the pain centers that are firing. So in the midst of all of this so-called frenzy that would have come along with a suicidal self-inflicted stab wound, you're having to readjust the knife backwards. You would invert the knife and then pull it back to the original orientation. In addition to that, and we're talking about now the injuries that are posterior on the backside. Okay, wait, I think I just figured out what you were saying.

You know what? You're going to have to work on your testimony, Joe Scott, because it took me that long to figure it out. I think what you're saying, let's pretend I've got the knife, to get those serrations on her body, she'd have to take it out of, she'd have to take the knife and turn it around and commit the next stab. And that is because we see which side of the knife is cutting her. So she'd have to, okay, here's an example. You know how there is the American and the European mode of cutting

your meat? Europeans allegedly hold the knife and the fork and they never swap. The American style is you swap, you cut the knife, you cut the meat with your right hand, you put down the knife, you take the fork out of your left hand and put the meat to your mouth. You swap back and forth. All right. Correct. That's what you're saying would have to happen here for these serrations to be performed by Ellen. She'd have to turn the knife around and then continue stabbing herself. That did not happen. And again, there is no person of interest. There is no suspect.

All there is is a big stinking mess because this case was not investigated. Tom Brennan joining me. Nancy, can I please add one more thing? Okay. Could I stop you? No. Yeah, sure you could. But one of the biggest faux pas here relative to this report, and you're breaking a norm here with this autopsy report. Nowhere in this autopsy report are the length of Ellen's arms mentioned. And when you're talking about, and I've been involved in over 7,000 autopsies, Nancy, and anytime you're talking about knife

wounds and you're talking about self-inflicted events, you have to measure the arm length to see if this is even possible for this to occur. This has never occurred in this autopsy. We've talked about this in the past. And so I cannot understand why in the world they would not have taken the time to do. I thought you were waxing philosophic again on the art of a medical examination. But I've never heard that mentioned before. The length of her arms were not taken into consideration or whether she was right-handed or left-handed. Hold on. Hold your thought. Tom Brennan joining me, private eye consultant for the Greenberg family. He's been on it from the

beginning. Tom Brennan, in a nutshell, what happened? Every time we get together and talk about this case, I learned something new. Like Joe Scott just describing the length of her arms was not taken into account. And that is critical. B'nai Naur came up with the fact that at least three of these wounds along with Dr. Michelle Dupree were fatal, but yet she kept stabbing herself in addition to the impossibility of killing yourself over 20 stab wounds if three of them were fatal and many committed post-mortem. My question to you, Tom Brennan, A, thank you for staying on the case. But the question is, what happened in between the medical examiner naming this a homicide and then suddenly going, oh, yeah, scratchy, scratchy. I've now decided it's a suicide.

What happened in the interim, Tom Brennan? And one meeting was with a member of the district attorney's office, the police, and Dr. Galino and Dr. Osborne. Okay, and at that meeting, that's when Dr. Osborne decided he was going to change his findings from homicide to suicide. Okay? his findings from homicide to suicide. Okay. Okay, hold on. John Lucy joining me from panlive.com. Did I just hear John Lucy, Tom Brennan, state that after the homicide ruling, the medical examiner met with law enforcement

and suddenly changed his mind? Did I hear that? Yes, you did. And the most powerful thing that has come out due to the Greenberg family's persistence on this case is they have been able to get those medical examiner officials under oath in sworn depositions in which both Osborne and Galeno spelled out the fact that these meetings occurred. So it's on the record under sworn deposition that these meetings occurred. And in addition to the U.S., the PA Supreme Court case challenging the cause of death ruling, there's another civil action by

the Greenbergs alleging a cover-up among the detectives and the M.E.'s office in Philadelphia. And they are now in the process of moving forward with depositions in that case, which is finally going to get some of the detectives under oath so they can be questioned about what happened at that crime scene on the night of her death. What happened to beloved Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg?

The Pennsylvania Supreme Court agrees to review the case amidst a controversial ruling. Controversial. Well, that's certainly one way to put it. Can we just all agree? And if anybody on the panel disagrees, jump in. How many times do I have to tell you we're not having high tea at Windsor Castle with Charles and Camilla? Jump in. Number one, no fingerprints were taken on the knife. Number two, no forensic tests were done on the door.

Was it really latched? Was it really, was it broken into? What really happened? Was there any evidence taken regarding fingerprints on the rest of the cabinets? Was luminol ever used? Why was her laptop and her cell phone taken from the apartment? Why was the cleaning crew called in to clean the apartment before it could be fully processed? There are so many questions. Most important in my mind, what happened in that closed door meeting with the medical examiner and members of law enforcement who ruled it suicide on the scene before any investigation? What happened in that meeting? Joining me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now.

But first, more of the 911 call. And remember, no one has been named a person of interest. No one has been named a suspect. But I can tell you this. This was not a suicide. Why has this case been suppressed? What is it that law enforcement, I'm talking about the district attorney's office. I'm talking about, yes, I'm saying it, the attorney general's office.

Why don't they want this case investigated? What's the problem? Listen to this. Okay, do you know how to do CPR? I don't. Okay, I'm going to tell you what to do, okay, until they get here. I want you to keep her safe. Oh, God. Hello? what to do, okay, until they get here. I want you to keep her clean. Oh, God.

Hold on. Yeah, hi, okay. We'll learn to do CPR with me over the phone until they get here. I have to, right? Okay, begin to lay on her back, bare her chest, okay, my ripper shirt off. Okay, kneel down by her side. Oh, my God. Allie, please.

Listen, listen, you can't freak out, sir. Okay, I'm trying not to. I'm trying not to. Her shirt won't come off. It's a zipper. Oh my God, she stabbed herself. Where? She fell on a knife. Oh no, her knife's sticking out. A what? There's a knife sticking out of her heart.

Oh, she stabbed herself? I guess so. I don't know where she fell on it. I don't know. Okay, well, don't touch it. So many things are jumping out at me from that 911 call. Number one, when the caller is told to try to do CPR, the caller says, I have to, right? Then he, the caller, says, OMG, she stabbed herself. Where did that come from? Number two, number three, the caller says she fell on a knife. She fell on a knife. That's a unique theory. Okay. Again, I cannot reiterate enough that no one has been named a suspect or a person of interest. I want to go back to John Lucy

joining us, joining us, journalistforpenlive.com, followed by Benet Naur. John, who do you understand to have been at that meeting where the medical examiner suddenly had some sort of an epiphany and named the multiple stabbing a suicide. Based on the deposition of Galeno and Osborne, there were detectives who were handling the case who were pressing their own version of evidence of suicide. And the things that are named in the deposition as their evidence is the lack of defensive wounds on her hands. In other words, if she was being

stabbed by an assailant, you raise your hands and you have stab wounds on the hands. That was one. And the second thing that was mentioned by those detectives to the ME's officials to change the ruling was the locked door, the latch, the hotel latch, which may or may not have actually been broken off on both sides to enter that room. And again, it all goes back to the night of her death. And for whatever reason, those responding detectives treated it as a suicide. And they bought into the narrative established on the 911 call that was a suicide. And they did not preserve the scene to be fully processed. And by the time that the M.E. ruled it a homicide, and by the time the detectives got back, you're right.

It was cleaned by a professional cleaning crew. And even the video that the hotel manager shot of the apartment as it existed before the cleaning, that has been subsequently lost. That was turned over to police. And now that tape of what existed in that apartment before the cleaning is gone as well. And that's all on the record. The bizarre case of Ellen Greenberg, the 27-year-old Philly teacher found dead in her own home, stabbed 20 times, ruled a suicide. What happened to Ellen? Let me understand something to you, Jessica Morgan, professor of forensics,

death investigator and author. Were her fingernail scrapings ever taken? Do we know? No, not to the best of my knowledge, no. You've heard bandied about that there were no defensive wounds. What say you? And also, what do you make of markings on Ellen's neck and multiple bruisings across her body in various stages of healing. Yeah. And we refer to those in forensic pathology as resolution. And so you've got multiple areas of small bruises, contusions that are in various stages of healing throughout the body. And that's certainly very interesting. And I remember asking Josh and Sandy years ago,

I think we had a conversation. I said, did Ellen have a problem walking or a problem with her gait? Or was there some kind of inner ear problem where she had some kind of problem with balance? She's bouncing off of walls and furniture. And they couldn't come up. They said, no, no, that wasn't the case. So why would she have? And I even wanted to know if she had some kind of disorder, blood disorder or something. Maybe she's just spontaneously bruising.

I have no idea. But none of that, none of that, none of that can be proved. Back to the markings on her neck. Weigh in. Yeah, when we're talking about markings on the neck, Nancy, that's something that is so crucial relative to their current status at autopsy, relative to how fresh they are. Are they going through resolution at this point in time? And I think that it's very important in this case because the neck on anyone that is being stabbed is a point of contact where a perpetrator would place their hands on somebody's

neck. It's a point of control in order to drive a blade into somebody's body. That has to be examined very, very carefully. To Sandy Greenberg, what do you make of the fact that no luminol was ever used at the scene? The scene was cleaned by professional cleaners. Her fingernails were never scraped. And I firmly believe that there is Police Department. They wouldn't do that to any of their, if any of their children were in this situation, they wouldn't be treated like this. She paid taxes and she deserves the same justice and the same attention that everyone else gets or should get. I'm just very curious, John, Lucy, joining us, journalist, PN Live and the Patriot News of Harrisburg, why her fingernails were never removed to see if she scratched anyone. How would a straight face, a medical examiner state, how could he state she had three potentially fatal stabs and kept stabbing herself? After that, those debilitating

stabs, how she stabbed herself in the spine, nicking the dura and kept going. How she got stabbed on the very top of her head, virtually impossible. No luminol was done and very, very significant John Lucy. There was dried blood going horizontally across her face, dried that way. Yet she was found by first responders sitting up, slumped up vertically against the kitchen cabinets. The blood should have been going down, not across. That indicates staging. John Lucy. Well, we call that the wrong way blood. And it's one of the many anomalies at the crime scene that was treated as a suicide scene the night of her death and thus never preserved and never processed. That is the original sin of this whole case. And that's why this case, even if it goes to the PA Supreme Court and is ruled that they can be reinvestigated as a homicide, likely never ends in a perpetrator

being identified because with the way that scene was handled, all that evidence was erased. As for that Dora and the spinal cord specimen, that was preserved from the original autopsy, but it was never fully sectioned and photographed until many years later after the Greenbergs kept up their own investigation. And Galino finally turned that Dura over to another assistant ME. She processed it. She investigated it. And she's the first one to put on the record in a sworn deposition that the spinal cord wound had no bleeding associated with it, meaning it was a post-mortem wound. And that is all on the record in the sworn depositions that the Greenbergs have secured as part of their lawsuits. The body of Ellen Greenberg is transported to the medical examiner's office with a knife still lodged in her chest. Dr. Marlon Osborne discovers Ellen has been stabbed 20 times in the chest, neck, and head.

Ten of the stab wounds are to her back and neck. Eight of the stab wounds are to her chest. Dr. Osborne notes that the knife embedded in her left chest is through her clothing. Ellen Greenberg is wearing two shirts when she is stabbed, and the defects in the shirts are consistent with the underlying wounds. And more significantly, listen. Performing the autopsy on Ellen Greenberg, Dr. Marlon Osborne notes that beyond the stabs

to the back and the neck area, Ellen also has a two-inch stab wound to her stomach and a two-and-a-half-inch long gash across her scalp. Ellen also has 11 bruises all over her body, her right arm, leg, and abdomen that are all in various stages of healing. Dr. Marlon Osborne rules Ellen Greenberg's death a homicide. I don't understand so many aspects of this case, but Sandy and Josh Greenberg breaking their silence now. how could Ellen, who is right-handed, stab herself repeatedly in her right arm?

How? How do you, with your right hand, stab yourself in your right arm? And who could keep stabbing themselves after three fatal stab wounds? The whole thing is just a, I can't say it on the air, but it is just a big mess. It doesn't make any sense. None of it makes any sense.

The fact there's two knives makes no sense. The fact that the way the wounds are make no sense. The fact she has a brutal wound on the top of her head makes no sense. Sandy, why is it so important, as you've said in the past, to clear Ellen's name? She's already lost her life. Why is it important to you that her death be fully investigated? It's wrong. And for me, I need to be able to lay my head on my pillow at night and know that I did everything I needed to do.

And this is very important to me. Why do you believe, Sandy, that anyone would want to cover up the true nature of Ellen's murder. When we were being deposed by the city for the lawsuit, I had five different attorneys questioning me and insisting, you know, trying to put words in my mouth and insisting upon this being a suicide, which it clearly wasn't. I was just so, professionally speaking, I would be so ashamed to myself if I were them. But why? My question is, why would anyone do this? There are two reasons. A, the police did a lousy investigation.

B, someone's being protected. I can't think of any other reasons. We wait and we pray that justice will unfold in the murder of Ellen Greenberg. Thank you to all of our guests, especially to Josh and Sandy Greenberg, my friends. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.