Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BOMBSHELL: DNA in JonBenet Ramsey Murder Mystery?

Episode Date: July 27, 2022

There is a renewed push for DNA testing on the evidence in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case. Ramsey, 6, was reported missing by her mother the day after Christmas 1996. Patsy Ramsey reported finding a ransom note that demanded more than $118,000. John Ramsey discovered the girl’s body the same day in the basement of the family’s home in Boulder, Colorado. Investigators determined that JonBenet was strangled and had an 8.5-inch fracture to her skull. No one has been charged in connection with the killing. John Ramsey spoke at the CrimeCon 2022 convention in Las Vegas, where he called for an independent agency to test DNA from his daughter JonBenét Ramsey’s case. Ramsey said he wanted the independent agency to conduct the DNA analysis instead of the Boulder Police Department, whom Ramsey says botched the investigation. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Sarah Ford - Legal Director, South Carolina Victim Assistance Network, SCvanLegal.org,  Former Prosecutor focusing on Crimes Against Women and Children, Facebook: "SCVAN Legal Services Program", Adjunct Professor, Claflin University & South Carolina State University,   Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills, CA), DrBethanyMarshall.com, Netflix show: 'Bling Empire' Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Dr. Monte Miller - Director, Forensic DNA Experts LLC, Specialist in Sexual Assaults and Murder, Former Forensic Scientist for Texas Dept. of Public Safety State Crime Lab  Audrey Conklin - Reporter, Fox News Digital, Twitter: @audpants  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Could it be real? Is this true? If police release a DNA sample, could the murderer of beauty queen John Benet Ramsey be identified within hours? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. First of all, take a listen to this. To think that in the archives of the Boulder Police Station is the remaining DNA that was found on John Bonnet and that you have the ability to today solve this case, yet they're not handing it over. That's heartbreaking.

It is heartbreaking. If their reasons are anything less than transparency, than full transparency, it is heartbreaking. You were hearing our friends at Australia's 60 Minutes. Why not release what we believe to be credible, reliable, usable DNA, deoxyribonucleic acid. Why not release it and hopefully put an end to one of the biggest murder mysteries that have plagued our country? With me, an all-star panel. But before I introduce them all, let me first go to Audrey Conklin, our reporter from Fox News Digital.

You can find her on Twitter at OddPantsAudreyConklin. Thank you for being with us. Yet another wrinkle in the never-ending saga of JonBenet Ramsey. Nobody's going to let it go until there's an answer. What's the latest? The latest is the Ramsey family is pushing for new DNA testing. They want the Boulder Police Department to allow an independent agency to conduct testing on the more than 250 pieces of evidence in this case.

John Ramsey, John Bonet's father, unveiled a petition back in April asking Colorado Governor Polis to do this. And so that's what the family is pushing for right now. And so far, they haven't really received any answers. I want to go to forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan joining us, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon

and star of a new hit series on iHeart, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, when I hear there are 250 items with potential, didn't you say that Audrey Conklin, potential or verified DNA on them? They have DNA evidence that could potentially be retested to build out a profile of the suspect. Okay, so what we know, Joe Scott Morgan, is that there is DNA. What does this really mean to you? Because to say there's DNA, yeah, there's DNA on this pin, and it's going to have my epithelial cells on it. But if this was found at a murder scene, what would it prove? To just give the blanket statement, there's DNA. How is that going to help me solve this case?

Jump in. Well, it's a process of elimination. And firstly, it's important to eliminate those individuals that are known to be in that home. But what if one of them is the killer? And I am not referring to Burke. And because I believe JonBenet Ramsey still had a hymen, it's my belief that she was not molested by an adult male. Because full-on child rape would have destroyed her hymen completely.

I agree. But if it's someone else related to JonBenet, would that be explained away as saying, oh, that would naturally be in the home? Well, to a certain degree. However, where there are focal concentrations of sample, say, in inappropriate areas, you know, you'd mentioned the hymen being intact. However, we have to remember that there was vaginal trauma. If you think about a clock face, the physicians, the forensic

anthropologists actually talk about that there's a slight abraded area at about the seven o'clock position to the opening. Are you talking about the vaginal opening of his child? Yes, I am. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Hold on. Seven o'clock. Okay. I'm assuming you're referring to if she was in the middle of having a pelvic exam. Right. At seven o'clock. Here's my question. How do I know that that is a recent or an old abrasion?

They'll be able to term that, and they actually used in the autopsy report, which I've been reading for years now, they talk about some of the abraded areas that she had on her body. What's abraded areas that she had on her body. What's abraded? Abraded is when we think about skinning our knee, most of the abrasions that she has or had were related to these ropes and the bindings that she had on. And when they're exposed to, say, air, and they'll have almost a parchment-like dried out area. And we know what scrapes look like after they dry.

Are you trying to say a scab? No, I'm not trying to say a scab. I'm just talking about when the skin has been insulted or abraded, it begins to dry out. There's not enough time for a scab to form, all right? That's something that's going to happen in an anti-mortem state. But those are significant. Now, what they could do is looking at the aforementioned area in her vaginal area. You know, they'll have to age that and give a conclusion. You can go back to Dr. Meyer's report. Okay, wait a minute.

You know what, Jessica and Morgan? I think what you're saying, let me just take a stab at this yeah is uh okay in response to my question if there is an abrasion at seven o'clock within this child's vaginal area right seven o'clock they could look at it and determine is it old or is it new just like any other abrasion on your skin like when you skin your knees right you can look and say oh that just happened or you can say oh that happened this afternoon or that happened a couple of days ago, based on the degree of healing. Yes, yeah.

Got it. Go ahead. Yep. Guys, I want you to take a listen to our longtime friend and colleague, Jim Moray at Inside Edition. John Bonet's father, John Ramsey, is calling on the governor of Colorado to take the case out of the hands of the Boulder police and transfer it to an independent agency. Anyone who would do this to a child is just beyond sick. He may be still out there. And if he is, he's probably killed other children. He or she, how did the whole thing start? Take a listen to the 911 call.

911 emergency. What do we need? Police. What's going on there, ma'am? We got kidnapped. All right, please explain to me what's going on, okay? There's a note left in our daughter's phone. A note was left in your daughter's phone?

How old is your daughter? She's six years old. She's five. Six years old. How long ago was this? I don't know. I just found the note. And my daughter's name is David Shepard?

What? Is it David Shepard? I don't know. There's a ransom note here. It's a ransom note? It says FBTC. Victory. Please.

Okay, what's your name? Are you... I'm Cassie Ramsey. I'm the mother. Oh, my God. Please. Okay, I'm sending you off the film. Okay.

Please. Do you know how long she's been gone? No, I don't. Please, we just got out. Can she run here? Oh my God, please. Okay, I am, honey. Please.

Take a deep breath. Please, hurry, hurry. Patsy, Patsy, Patsy, Patsy. You are hearing the 911 call placed by the mom, Patsy Ramsey. The ransom note says SBTC victory, and that has been analyzed over and over and over. Some theorize it's saved by the cross victory, or it could be a reference to John Ramsey's Subic Bay Training Center. So I don't know what SBTC means, but those are two windows into the mind of whoever wrote that ransom note. I want to go to Dr. Monty Miller, Director, Forensics DNA Experts,

Specialist in Sex Assault and Murder, Former Forensic Scientist for the Texas Department of Public Safety State Crime Lab. That's not shabby. Dr. Monty Miller, what do you make of the demand now to have that DNA tested? Why hasn't it been tested? And what do you make of what Audrey Conklin from Fox News Digital is saying, that there are 250 items that could be tested?

Well, I think they ought to test them. I mean, I think they ought to test the most important ones, the ones that are on the intimate regions, and some of those start with those. And, you know, work your way out. They only need a small amount of DNA. You know, they've already used this to catch some of the other, you know, cold case killers like the Golden State Killer and some of those other people.

And, you know, you might get nothing, but why not? Why not look at it? There's nothing to lose. Exactly, Monty. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Dr. Monty Miller joining us from, he's the director of Forensic DNA Experts, LLC. Dr. Monty, maybe it'll be a big flop. Maybe we won't get anything.

But what if we do? Can I ask you about the tiny speck of male DNA that was found at the scene that really doesn't match up to anyone? The underwear that JonBenet was wearing when her body was found did not fit her. I understand it was several sizes too big as if someone had bought it and then realized wrong size and just kept it for later. She was wearing the wrong size underwear and there was a speck of male DNA on it, is my understanding. Could male DNA get on packaged underwear in the manufacturing facility? Well, it's possible.

I mean, they've had that problem come up with swabs that they've used at a crime scene where, you know, I think it was in Britain where somebody came up and they thought it was a serial killer. And later they found out it was somebody at the swab factories DNA. Wow. So that certainly can and does happen. But it's pretty uncommon. Most of the manufacturing, you know, nobody touches anything. But, you know, it doesn't always happen. You know, they have the people that take things out to check it, to make sure the packaging is right, to inspect the things. And so some things do get touched.

Some things do get handled. But most of that would be gone if it were washed. Yeah. I don't know if these underwear were straight out of the package or if they had been washed, which is a really good point. Had they been washed or were they straight out of the package? And where was that package? Was it upstairs in JonBenet Ramsey's underwear drawer where you may put stuff until you're going to wear it, put new underwear or socks until you wear them? Those are answers we don't have. But I agree with you, Dr. Monty Miller, that I would feel more convinced by DNA found on her body or on her person around her vagina or anus. I would feel more comfortable with DNA that was on the rope that was used to bind her. Let's talk about that for a moment. I assume that's part of

the 250 items that could be tested, the rope. Why is that significant, the rope, to you, Joseph Scott Morgan? Well, the real reason that they want to use the rope is because the person who would have tied her up would have come into contact with that and there would be good friction and pressure um and there might very well be some good skin cells on there you really should only find her and whoever's been in the contact with that rope so if the rope is new um then you're liable to get some good dna from the places where the knots were tied absolutely because with rope if you're tying ropes especially when you make the knot and pull it, your epithelial skin cells are getting on that rope. And as Dr. Monty Miller just pointed out, if it's new rope, then it's going to be only your DNA on there, most likely. Guys, you were just hearing that 911 call. Now take a listen to our friends

at KPRC. It is the ransom note that has been analyzed millions of times over the past 20 years since the murder of the child beauty queen. Still, an arrest has never been made. We went to handwriting analyst Alice Weiser. She analyzed the JonBenet Ramsey ransom note and was a contributor to Court TV 20 years ago. She did a comparison to Patsy Ramsey's handwriting prior to the murder and the ransom note. I of course cannot say by looking at this that she absolutely did it, but we found 55 commonalities between her writing and the ransom note. The D in her handwriting prior to this matches perfectly the D in the ransom note, the way it curves and goes around. The S is exactly the same. She says the M is also the same. I would have to look at this note and say I feel quite positive in feeling that the note was written by Patsy Ramsey.

Let's talk about DNA on the ransom note. Then I'll circle back to Sarah Ford and Dr. Bethany Marshall. What about the possibility of epithelial cells, skin cells, on the note? Is it too late? And remember, cops are telling us that nearly 1,000 items have already been DNA tested. Wait a minute. Does that mean with the latest technology? And if they were to say, well, we've used up the DNA in the testing, what about the possibility of replicating or regenerating that DNA? Let me think of a way, like you cut your fingernail. Well, two weeks later, your

fingernail has grown back. There is a way to replicate in the lab certain DNA. DNA that you may use up while you're testing it, but it can also be replicated before the testing. So you have enough, not every time, time but sometimes what about the possibility of dna joseph scott morgan joining us dna off the ransom note and if it's already been tested could it be retested with newer technology yeah i'm supposing that if they were able to maintain the sample and um you know i don't know, the time for being pristine has long since passed. Yeah. And here's another issue, Nancy, in this case.

We have to remember when the call went out, when the call went out, this was being treated like a kidnapping, right? You had a couple of uniformed cops that showed up. You realize how many people traipsed through that house during that period of time? Completely unprofessional. And you've got Patsy proclaiming on the call, oh, my God, oh, my God, there's a note, there's

a note. Well, how many people over the course of them looking for her handled this note? I mean, it's the most glaring piece of evidence. And it's the one thing that multiple people would have had access to. You know, you got friends coming over. Remember, it was like Christmas time. You know, you got friends coming over. Remember, it was like Christmas time. You know, there's people in there.

You got Christmas decorations up. They're serving coffee or whatever it is. And you've got all these people that are kind of orbiting this area. And that, for me, is kind of troubling. Applying devil's advocate to that, I would expect Patsy to have picked up the ransom note. And maybe even her husband. Maybe the cop on the scene. And because it was so unprofessionally handled, the cop may not have had on gloves or maybe they did. I don't know. But because of that, I would totally expect for Patsy's DNA to be on that piece

of paper. But what would be interesting is if nobody else's DNA was on that piece of paper or on the pen that was found. Let's talk about handwriting analysis. This case put handwriting analysis under the spotlight. I was fortunate enough to have tried handwriting analysis cases. And to you, Sarah Ford, the legal director of the SC Victims Assistant Network, Sarah, handwriting analysis, in my mind, has become a science, less of an art and more of a science. I mean, haven't you ever looked at something and went, oh, yeah, that's my husband's handwriting or that's my daughter's handwriting? I mean, even to the untrained eye, it's very often easy to determine, much less when every loop and whirl is carefully studied under a microscope.

Now, my first handwriting analysis case was of a bank robbery with a bank robbery note. Lucky for me, the bank robbery with a bank robbery note. Lucky for me, the bank robber was dyslexic. So every time he did his handwriting analysis, he was also flipping letters and writing. He also had a very vague familiarity with punctuation. So it said, don't, exclamation, touch, period, the alloram, reversing the letters, alarm, he did very much the same thing, injected unnecessary punctuation everywhere and reversed letters. So I didn't have to worry about how he crossed his T or dotted his I. It was really apparent. What do you make of handwriting analysis? Because other experts said this was not Patsy Ramsey's handwriting. You know, Nancy,

everyone's going to have a probably a different viewpoint's handwriting. You know, Nancy, everyone's going to have probably a different viewpoint on this. You know, an expert witness, you know, a jury would be able to determine their credibility and their analysis, and they would testify to that. But I'll tell you, I've tried those cases too. I've actually had my handwriting analyzed, and you can try to trip them up. You can try to do different things,

even have someone else write something, and they are good. It is write something. And they are good. It is a science. They're really good. And everybody on the panel, as I am forced to remind you, this ain't tea at Highgrove with the queen. Jump in. This is not just a textbook analysis of DNA or handwriting. This is a little girl whose case has never been resolved.

Someone sex assaulted her and murdered her. And no one has ever been brought to justice. And let me be clear, as I said on day one, Dr. Bethany, based on stats and just knowing what I do know of Burke, never did I ever believe it was Burke. And people that are grasping at that straw have been wrong from the get-go, as has been proven in court. Also, as I mentioned, because of her hymen alone being intact, that tells me an adult male most likely did not molest her. And in my mind, that rules out the father. Another thing that in my mind rules out the father, John Ramsey, is that in the ransom note, the ransom was his exact, the exact amount of his bonus that year, $118,000. What idiot would point the finger at himself by putting in his bonus amount or Subic Bay Training Center where he trained?

No, I don't think it was him for many reasons. So in my mind, circumstantial evidence rules those two out. But can you imagine Dr. Bethany Marshall is joining us, high-profile psychoanalyst out of Beverly Hills at drbethanymarshall.com, and she's the star of a Netflix show, Bling Empire. Dr. Bethany, can you imagine what John Ramsey is going through? He's already lost one daughter. I believe his older daughter died in a car crash. One older daughter passed away. He's lost JonBenet. His wife, Patsy, has passed on. His son

fought a valiant fight in court to stop people saying that he committed the crime. I mean, this guy's been through a lot. And now he can't get the DNA tested. Can you imagine the hell he's going through? I cannot imagine the hell. And just logically, he and Blake Bowles are pushing for this DNA to be released. If they were guilty, they would not be pushing for the DNA to be released. Absolutely. It's a valiant fight.

Did you see the picture of JonBenet Ramsey's father at CrimeCon? He was sitting next to his daughter's picture. The picture is blown up. And he looked so old and dejected and really all by himself. You know, you think of when this crime happened, he had his daughter, his wife, his son, and people in the house. It was a Christmas party, a household full of life. And then one by one, after losing JonBenet Ramsey, he's lost other family members. And sometimes we see this when there is one bad happening in a person's life.

It causes a negative cascading effect of similar events where they keep having accidents or losing people and losing their jobs you know it's as if they go into a depression or some kind of downward spiral and this is the opportunity to pull him out of that to give him some clarity but nancy you know people are anti-science who's anti-science i'm not anti-science? I'm not anti-science. I love science. Why are you saying that? You love science. Everybody on the panel loves science. But this is a very scientific inquiry.

It's to get the DNA and to analyze it using new techniques. What if you have old detectives, old people on the police force who have been, you know, covering this case, working on it, trying to crack a cold case. And they like the old method. You know what? You have a very good point. Another thing that you said, remember how, forgive me, everybody for using him, but he's just basically a buffet of examples, a potpourri of bad acting. Scott Peterson, remember how he would not speak at the candlelight vigil for his wife Lacey and his unborn son Connor because he was too busy in the back talking to his mistress on the phone. I find it very hard to, let me say, jive, to reconcile. If John Ramsey murdered his daughter, why would he be the one pushing for DNA, for new DNA testing?

And so I agree with you on that. And also the old phrase, you can't teach an old dog a new trick, you know, not suggesting in any way that you're, let's just say, a silver fox, Joe Scott Morgan. But I've seen that before where nobody wants to try anything new. And then I'll follow up with Dr. Monty Miller that if this DNA is released by police, that the killer could be identified in a matter of hours. I don't know about a matter of hours. It takes time. Those are the headlines. That's my question. Well, yeah.

And, you know, whoever wrote those headlines may not know anything about science. Yeah, exactly. But it is a process. And right now it seems as though that they've got the best shot that they've that they've ever had. What I hear what you're saying in order to make that come true, you would have to have the known you'd have to have the known DNA of John Bonet's body or an article at the crime scene. And you'd have to know who to compare it to. Yeah. Yeah. scene and you'd have to know who to compare it to yeah yeah but if you have those two variables a plus b you should be able to get c relatively quickly yeah yeah i would say relatively

quickly but i would use caution in doing this we've waited this long if the killer's profile is already in the system yeah if the killer's profile is already in the system in some kind of particularly some kind of genealogical database which I would assume is what they're driving at here, unless you've got some kind of predator that's out there in some kind of database that exists already in that context. What about it, Dr. Monty Miller? Well, I think that, you know, certainly if he's in the CODIS database, they would have already found him if they had the DNA. The genealogical database is the best way to go. Like you said, we've waited this long.

It really is a matter of days, though. It isn't going to be months or years or anything like that. So, you know, you've got 256 samples or whatever it is. So you need to run them, you know, just run a few and see what you get and run a few more. You can add these into that genealogical database and, you know, you're liable to find at least some relatives. But then you've got to go through that and decide which ones are reasonable. Let me ask you this. Audrey Conklin joining us. She is a Fox News digital reporter on this case.

Audrey, so let me understand what's happening today. Explain. Today, as I mentioned, at CrimeCon, at the CrimeCon convention in April, John Bonet's father, John Ramsey, asked the Colorado governor to allow an independent agency to conduct DNA testing on the materials in this case. The family really wants to retest certain pieces of evidence and there are more than 250 in this case for more DNA samples that could then be processed and potentially connected to other DNA samples and databases containing unique genetic information

for thousands of individuals who may be the suspect in this case or related to the suspect in this case. And so they really just want to further what police, what authorities can do to bring up new names or keep the case relevant. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us, at this, there is a new renewed push to solve the murder of a beautiful young beauty queen, JonBenet Ramsey, half-brother are petitioning the governor, Jared Polis, to hand over DNA samples the Boulder Police Department has been sitting on to Parabon Nanolabs to do DNA testing in the case. Why now? Well, it's not as if this is the first time he's asked. This is a renewed effort. Why now? What do you make of it? Sarah Ford,

Dr. Bethany Marshall, Joe Scott Morgan, and Dr. Monty Miller. Why now? Why the new and renewed push? What do you think, Audrey Conklin? I think it's because DNA technology is more advanced than it's ever been. And they recently had this opportunity at the CrimeCon convention to make themselves heard and make this renewed push for more answers in the case. And they're really trying to hold the Colorado government accountable and say, okay, let's take the next step forward. Nancy, I have to jump in on this. Just from a mental health psychological perspective, there are a lot of amateur genealogists who love to solve these crimes. And just like we saw recently with social media, people in social media solving crimes because they've taken pictures and videos and, you know, they begin to, you know, move at a pace faster than the police force. We might see a whole new groundswell of amateur genealogists kind of weighing in and trying to solve this crime as well, which I think is quite interesting. I agree. Nancy, go ahead, dear.

Yeah, look, I got to tell you, you and I were both at CrimeCon this year. And when I found out that he was on the dais where he was on the program, that is Mr. Ramsey, I felt like he was going to walk into a bus on that place because this is the first time he's been in a forum like this. He is emboldened at this moment in time. I think he knows something. That's just my thought. He certainly he certainly has intestinal fortitude walking into a room with 5000 people at crime. We were there. We were there.

We saw the whole thing and i'm just thinking sarah ford legal director of south carolina victim assistant network of a father a parent father or mother whose child whose little child and in this case it's six-year-old john bonnet is murdered in a brutal way and it's never solved. And hey, maybe he is grasping at straws, but maybe he's not. First, before you answer that, Sarah Ford, take a listen to our cut 17, our friend Jim Murray.

He's also demanding that the latest cutting-edge DNA technology be used to find JonBenet's killer. There's evidence sitting in a locker somewhere that has never been tested for DNA, and it could be tested. And you think that could solve this crime, and it hasn't been done. That's correct. Technology has advanced so far in 25 years that to not go back and apply the latest technology is just foolish.

I don't understand it either. Take a listen now to our cut 19 again, Jim Array. Who do you think murdered your daughter? I was asked that question early on. I said, I don't know anybody this evil. I don't think I've been around anybody this evil. One investigator told John Ramsey, John Bonnet may have been murdered in a personal vendetta to hurt him and his family. You may not even know who they are. And that's a tough pill to swallow. Do I believe it's some vendetta like out of a movie? No, I really don't. I think it's going to be much more simple than that. But to Dr. Sarah Ford, legal director, South Carolina Victim Assistant Network, can you imagine a parent seeking justice and the police won't release the evidence?

And we know that this was mishandled by local cops at the get go. They bungled the scene horribly. I don't trust them now either. It's absolutely tragic, Nancy. But I think we have to look at this, that if police are looking at this from with 1996 eyes, we're in 2022. You know, the way we look at cases back then is completely different. The way we try cases now is completely different.

The things we know. And so, you know, there is no expiration on justice for victims, period. And whether it's been two decades, three decades, whatever it's been, these family members have rights under Colorado law that they are victims and they have the right to pursue remedies under their statutes. And I think that this family definitely needs to file a motion in court to force the Boulder police to turn that evidence over. And also, Sarah Ford, at this point, Colorado's governor announced he will, quote, look into how much the state can assist using technology. How long is he going to look into it?

When is he going to finish reading the documents and make a decision? I mean, Audrey Conklin, the governor, said that a long time ago. Why has nothing happened? To tell you the truth, I don't know why nothing has happened. The Boulder Police Department has pretty consistently stated that they're investigating ways to use DNA technology to keep testing evidence in this crime. And they've processed more than 1,500 pieces of evidence. You know, they keep saying the same thing. The governor has also said that he would look into it. But I don't think any updates have been made since then.

And just so you know, John Ramsey has also called for child murders to be investigated as federal crimes to get government agencies, federal government agencies like the FBI to get involved in cases like this from the outset so that something like this doesn't happen again. You know, Dr. Bethany Marshall, when I hear politicians say they're looking into it, that's like when they say they're appointing a committee. Nothing's happening. Nothing is going to happen. Nothing's happening now.

Period. And Ramsey can't go to the local DA because they're obviously not insisting the police cough up the DNA to have it tested. You can't go to the cops. They're the ones not handing it over. So where, I mean, what is going through John Ramsey's mind now? I mean, he's running out of avenues. The governor said, I'll look into it, but nothing's happened. Nancy, there's always resistance to change, whether it's new science, whether it's a new way of looking at a case, whether it's respecting a family that you have disrespected historically, whether it's taking up new ways of looking at evidence, and all of a sudden you have to provide funding to do that

for other families as well in government and bureaucracy change is very very slow and look how old is this case i mean how many decades now 25 years old 25 years old and the governor The governor there, the Colorado governor, agreed to review the petition months ago, but nothing has happened. So what, if anything, Sarah Ford, can Ramsey do now? Go over the governor's head? That would be going to the feds. It could be going to the feds. It could be going to the Colorado Supreme Court and asking for this evidence to be tested. I mean, this is reliable, safe, and proven technology that they're not handing over.

And if they're not going to do anything about it, whether it's the DA or the police, then I think that this family has a right to ask for that and ask for it formally in court and make the court decide. To Dr. Monty Miller, what breakthrough technology could be used on these items that hasn't already been used? Well, I mean, it's really using the same technology because our technology is just, it's the same, only it's just gotten a little more robust. We're doing it a little better. You can get DNA samples uh results from a smaller amount of dna uh when you get results oftentimes you get more markers so you get more information and so um it's not so much different it's different from 96 but probably in the last 10 or 15 years

um it hasn't changed a lot as far as the technology. It's just it's gotten better. Like our cars, you know, have gotten better since the 50s. You know, the technology here has gotten better, though. It's very, very similar. But, you know, I'd like to weigh in on the fact that I think they should call, you know, a lawyer and get that before the court and get a court order to order them to allow them to do whatever testing that they can. And to you, Joe Scott Morgan, isn't it true that there are labs that exist now that specialize, specialize in compromised DNA, such as muddy DNA, old DNA,

very little DNA, dirty DNA, DNA that's been under the water. There are labs that specialize in compromised DNA that didn't exist a long time ago. I just don't see the holdup. I guess he's going to have to go to the feds. He's either going to have to go to the Colorado Supreme Court or he's going to have to jump over them to the federal district court there in Colorado and go into the federal system. Yeah. And I think that one of the things here is that they're thinking about private labs. And the state, I think, is going to be hesitant in that area where you can farm this out to a private lab that has perhaps better access to

better technology. And they don't want to take their hands off of this. That's the only thing I can think of. You know, why not roll the dice at this point? It's just like you said just a second ago, Nancy. We're 25 years downrange now. 25 years and still no closer. You know what? I agree, Joe Scott Morgan. If the state crime lab doesn't have the capability, just send it to a private lab and get it done. We wait, God willing, for justice to unfold. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.