Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BOMBSHELL! FOTIS DULOS LAWYER TO TESTIFY AGAINST HIS MISTRESS?

Episode Date: February 4, 2021

Fotis Dulos' former attorney may testify against the accused killer's former mistress. Michelle Troconis and former attorney Ken Mawhinney are co-defendants in the disappearance of Jennifer Dulos. Troconis, who was Fotis Dulos’ live-in girlfriend when Jennifer disappeared in May 2019, pleaded not guilty to the charges against her. Mawhinney, who appeared virtually in court on Tuesday, is facing a conspiracy charge. He, too, pleaded not guilty.Joining Nancy Grace today: Randy Kessler - Atlanta Trial Lawyer, Emory Law School Professor, Past Chair ABA Family Law Section, Author: "Divorce, Protect Yourself, Your Kids and Your Future", www.KSFamilyLaw.com, Instagram: @rkessler23, Twitter: @GADivorce, Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta Ga www.angelaarnoldmd.com  Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet" featured on "Poisonous Liaisons" on True Crime Network  Laura Ingle - Fox News Senior Correspondent, Host of "Murder in Connecticut: The Jennifer Dulos Story" on Fox Nation, @lauraingletv Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. The missing Connecticut mom of five, Jennifer Dulos' body has never been found. What are the grandparents supposed to tell her children when they ask, where's mommy? The case ain't over yet. In the last hours, a bombshell. When I say bombshell, I mean a bombshell. husband Fotis Dulos lawyer, his alleged partner in crime set to testify against his mistress. Take a listen to this. It was a Friday morning in late May,

almost the end of the academic year when Jennifer Dulos dropped off her five children for school surveillance cameras show. She returned to her rented home around eight o'clock, then vanished. We love you and we are doing everything we can to bring you home. Hours later, worried friends called the police after she missed several appointments. Her disappearance sparked an intense search, stretching across state lines, making headlines in the national news. New developments in the case of that missing mother of five. Overnight, her estranged husband speaking in a new interview.

Her estranged husband and his live-in girlfriend appearing in court. Cops immediately start with a timeline and trying to figure out if she left on her own. But then they discover her SUV seemingly abandoned. Drones, canines, and a helicopter scoured the area. Her vehicle found near a wooded park. That's how it all started. Yes, that's how it all started when Jennifer Dulos goes missing. And this is what we're learning today. Take a listen to our friends at NBC Connecticut WVIT, our cut 22. According to Schoenhorn, in the 90-minute video, which has not been released publicly, Mawinney says that the day before Jennifer Dulos was reported missing, he was at Fortis Dulos' Farmington home at Fort

Jefferson Crossing. He told this to state police, allegedly, according to Schoenhorn. It was there that Schoenhorn says Mawinney alleges Dulos and Traconis asked him to give them a fake alibi for the next day when they planned to get rid of Dulos' estranged wife, Jennifer, back in May of 2019. Schoenhorn also says that the next night, Mawinney claims Dulos called him to tell him the deed was done. Traconis' attorney says he's not surprised Mawinney would try to implicate his client and he doesn't believe the state plans on moving forward with its case against him. Questioning Mawinney's credibility and motive, Schoenhorn has asked prosecutors to release all versions of Mawinney's statement along with video surveillance that shows how long

he was with state police before and after they recorded that interview, documentation regarding the decision not to give him a polygraph test, and any communication that took place about his possible cooperation. Again, our friends at NBC Connecticut WVIT with me, an all-star panel to break it down and put it back together again. What does it mean? I've never heard of a defense attorney testifying against their own client. Even when that client has been sitting in jail, pulling at straws and claims their trial lawyer was ineffective. A lot of times you'll see the trial lawyer take the stand and say, yeah, I was ineffective. Anything to help their client get a reversal. What's going on in the case of Michelle Chaconis? Chaconis, the lover of Fotis Dulos at the time,

his wife, Jennifer, goes missing. Joining me, Randy Kessler, high-profile lawyer. Joining me out of Atlanta, Emory Law School professor, past chair of the ABA Family Law Section, author of Divor yourself your kids and your future and you can find them at ksfamilylaw.com wow that was a mouthful and it's all true joining me also from atlanta renowned psychiatrist dr angela arnold you can find her at angela arnold md.com professor forensics jacksonville state university author of blood beneath my feet

on amazon star of a brand new hit series on the true crime network poisonous liaisons joseph scott morgan but first to special guests joining us fox news senior correspondent host of murder in connecticut the jennifer dulo story on Fox Nation, Laura Engel TV. Laura Engel is joining me right now. Laura, does it never end? First this twist, then that twist. Now this. What's happening?

Hi, Nancy. Well, you know, all of this coming around what is called a grim anniversary, of course. We have made the mark as we were doing our reporting on January 29th. That was the day that Fotis Doulos had tried to take his life at his home. He was supposed to be in court that day. So that was just a year ago. And as we were getting ready to mark that anniversary and check in the case, you're right. A lot of activity has been happening with the courts, with these other two suspects in the case. And we were able to speak to John Schoenhorn for over an hour. John Schoenhorn is the attorney for Michelle Triconis, taking a look back at where we

are with this case and taking a look forward. And he, of course, still maintains that Michelle Traconis, Fotis' girlfriend at the time of Jennifer Dulos' disappearance, maintained their innocence. But what he told us in that interview, and then we saw some new video just released this week from Mr. Schoenhorn in court trying to get the charges dismissed. Some interrogation video that happened shortly after Jennifer Doulos went missing of what he calls state investigators badgering his client, giving her what he calls false information to get her to crack and give information that he claims she simply does not have. Hold on. Lauren Engel, for those of us that have been following the case from the beginning, we know all the names. But for people that are just learning about Jennifer Dulos,

the missing Connecticut mom of five, she drops her children off to school 8 a.m. in the morning. She comes back home. You see her heading into her home, and then she's never seen alive again blood has been found all over the home including her blood and her husband's blood and then it seems like the mistress michelle traconis was along for the ride well there's no such thing as along for the ride uh under the law straight out to you randy Kessler, Atlanta trial lawyer, if she was in the car and she helped Fotis Dulos get rid of evidence

the way that video seems to purport, she's in and up to her eyeballs. She is, but you know this lawyer's aggressive and I like his style and I like that he's putting it all out there. You take every shot you can to get your client off. I mean, he's exposing... You know what? You sound like you're talking on one of those singing competitions or the masked dancer or dancing with the stars.

Put it all out there. Show them what you've got. What are you talking about? This is a murder case. Put it all out there. Well, you know, he's asking the judge to dismiss the charges. He's going to ask the judge in the middle of the trial to dismiss his client. He's going to he's trying to prep the judge.

And he's showing this interview tactic. You know, where would you where would you bury a body? Well, that's a trick question. If she says the right answer, then aha, she knew it because she did it. And if she doesn't cooperate, well, she's not cooperating. I mean, he's trying to prejudice the trier of fact, which is the judge and the jury. So anyone that sees this knows. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Hold on. Kester, let me understand this. With me, high profile defense attorney Randy Kester. You're saying he is trying to prejudice who? The people that will make the decision. Who's he? The lawyers. What lawyers?

The prosecutor? No, no, no, no, no, no. The defense lawyer who's putting it out there saying, look at these videos. Look at this interview of her. They're harassing her. Who's they? Who's harassing her? The investigator.

Oh, okay. Right. Okay. Now I see where you're going, Randy Kessler. Give me a moment to wade through all that defense mumbo jumbo. You're now claiming the police investigators are confusing the mistress. Okay, with trick questions. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Guys, we are talking about not only the disappearance and what I purport to be the death of a missing mom of five, Jennifer Dulos out of Connecticut, but now legal shenanigans. Now, if you got led down the garden lane by Randy Kessler, he was trying to take me, Jackie, Joy, the whole panel along with him. What he's saying, Laura Engel, I'm pretty sure, is that the prosecutors, the investigators, the detectives are trying to trick the lover, the girlfriend, Michelle Traconis, into saying where Jennifer Dulo's body has been hidden. Now, let's correct everybody, Laura Engel's. Refresh recollections. Isn't it true, Laura? Laura, joining me, Fox News senior correspondent, host of Murder in Connecticut, the Jennifer Dulos story on Fox Nation, that there is video of Fotis Dulos, the husband, the cheating husband, going all over town, throwing out bloody clothes, bloody sponges, all sorts of blood

spattered evidence. It's Jennifer's blood on the evidence and in the car is none other than Michelle Triconis. On video, right? That is on video. You don't see her getting out on these surveillance videos. And it's really interesting that he chose to go to Albany, which is absolutely wired. There's a camera on every street corner and it seems to be in every store, every alley, showing him getting out of the car and removing these bags. Now, remember, the outside of the bags contains Fotis Doulos' DNA fingerprints, of course. And they also say that they found a couple of traces, pieces of DNA of Michelle Triconis on the outside of those bags. And John Schoenhorn, her attorney, told us last week that the police misrepresented the evidence that

was only partial DNA. There weren't full fingerprints, he says. But here's what's really interesting about our conversation with John Schoenherz, the attorney for Michelle Triconis. Now, he told us that the police in these interviews and your other guests brought up, you know, the police asked her, where would you get rid of a body? That's on the tape. He told us for the first time that in those interviews, the state police told her in graphic terms that Fotis Doulos murdered his wife, but then told Michelle Triconis falsely that the garbage bags disposed of on Albany Avenue, which is in Hartford, are filled with body parts. He says that caused my client, Michelle, to freak out during interrogation, get hysterical crying. And he

claims that the state police are repeatedly lying to her in order to get her to tell them what she knew. She said at least a dozen times in that tape, he counted 19 times on the interrogation recordings, that she says, I don't know anything. I would tell you if I knew. He claims that she was being badgered, that the police techniques that were being used were illegal, that they were trying to just work her over and get her all worked up. He said there's never been evidence of body parts. And to his point, there have not been body parts found. But he claims the police told her that to get her worked up so that she would confess to something he claims she doesn't know. I got three questions for you, Laura Engle, Fox News senior correspondent. And again, thank

you for being with us. You know, this like the back of your hand, Laura, two conflicting things I heard. This is my first question. There are, I believe you said there is partial DNA from Shelter Conus on the outside of the trash bags containing Jennifer Dulo's bloody clothes. Is that right? That's right. Now, then, how does partial DNA fit with not a full fingerprint? Because typically we say DNA in a partial print. Where are they getting partial DNA? Because in the world we live in now, there's really no such thing as partial DNA. There may be compromised DNA. There may be just

mitochondrial DNA. But I've never heard the phrase partial DNA. Did they mean a partial fingerprint? You know, look, it's John Schoenhorn's way of saying there are there's clues of DNA of Michelle Chaconis, but he's just trying to minimize what they are. That is his take. Very different than what state investigators. Yes, I'm sure the defense lawyer's interpretation is very different from the crime lab scientist interpretation. And the other thing is, you said when the lover, Michelle Chaconas, is being interrogated, it's all on tape, that you can hear everything. Do you hear on the tape where the investigators said body parts? That part has not been released. That was something that John Schoenhorn told us for the first time.

And he even said, I'm looking at the transcript right now of our interview. He said, I have never told anybody this before. This is going to be coming out because we're going to finally get our chance to release these interrogation tapes. And we got a little taste of it this week from this hearing where she is crying. And they're saying, just tell us what you know. And she just keeps saying, I will tell you I will be here i would be here a lot angle you think i care she's crying what do you think jennifer dulos's children and her mother and father are doing right now they're crying so she's crying she's been sleeping with a married man that kills his wife and she goes with him to dispose of her bloody clothes and bloody

sponges and bloody rags very bloody scene scene. From there to Albany and back. I don't feel sorry for her. She can cry a river for all I care. But if I'm hearing from her defense attorney that during this investigation, the cops leaned over and said, there were body parts. I'm not buying that unless I can hear it on the audio like I hear everything else. I think that's just something they concocted. Well, we're going to have to wait for that. That's going to be one of the more interesting parts of the trial, right? When we get all of that interrogated video

that will be played. And hey, it may be there, Randy Kessler, but aside from your own steadfast belief that this is wrong, why don't you explain to the panel what the U.S. Supreme Court says about tricking a confession? Look, it's got to be in good faith. You know, they have to have some basic... Did you just say good faith or good taste? Good faith. Good faith. You know, good taste would be nice, but I'm not giving them that credit for that.

Randy, just tell me what the Supreme said, okay? Just tell me the ruling. You cannot outlive lies. You can tell somebody anything you think they might believe to be true. Trickery is okay to get a confession. Beating someone, promising them things that are not going to happen like a plea deal, they can't promise, coercing them, that's not okay. Tricking them is totally okay.

Randy? And if you're okay with that and that's the system we want, there's a level to trickery. Okay? I mean, you cannot say, I have this evidence right here that shows that you did this, this, this, and this. I mean, that's got, that's a little. So you think the Supreme Court said, I've got this evidence that shows this, this, and this. That's not what the Supreme said. They said you can trick to get a confession.

Yeah. Well, you know, we have a system of justice here. Did you say yes? Did you say yes? Okay. So look, Nancy Grace, sometimes you're right. I think he's saying yes. Okay.

So, you know, they can trick her. They can trick her. They can't beat her. They can't torture her into confession. But they can can trick her. They can trick her. They can't beat her. They can't torture her into confession. But they can totally trick her. So if that's what, jump in, whoever's jumping, I think it's Joe Scott. I knew you couldn't hold out. Even though this is totally not your area of expertise, jump in.

No, it kind of is in this sense. Let me tell you why Draconis needs to be worried. Let's go back to what you said about the partial DNA. There is such a thing as partial DNA. And you know how they collected this? What they're referring to is that I suspect this is touch DNA. Now we can leave behind partial DNA. And let me explain this to you. When throughout the day, throughout our normal day of life, we slough thousands and thousands and thousands of skin cells every day. Okay. Juergens has made a fortune off of hand cream. Okay. Over the years, we lose dead skin cells. Well, one of the reasons they're talking about partial is that when that skin cell falls away, when it falls away, there is a partial strand of DNA in there.

That's what they're saying here. I can almost guarantee it. And what you have to do is take that very fragile. Are you telling me when they say when the defense lawyer said partial DNA, he's talking about epithelial DNA? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Skin cells. OK. I stand corrected. Randy Kessler. I'm not a sore loser.

I've been schooled by Joe Scott. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about the missing mom of five. Think about that right there. Missing mom of five, Jennifer Dulos, drops the children at school, comes back home. She's never seen again. The husband and Laura Engel, I need you, friend. Jump in.

She comes back home, never seen again. Her husband, Fotis Dulos, is, we believe, at the home. Then he takes an employee's car without permission, then later tells the employee to switch out the backseat, trade out backseat. How do you even do that? Then Jennifer's DNA is found in the backseat of the employee's car. And then he, Dulos, and his mistress, Michelle Chaconas, go and have the vehicle totally detailed and cleaned. Right? A work truck.

A work truck that this worker is like, this is something that we use for construction. We don't, we don't keep it shiny and clean. He was, he was actually offended. According to some reports, he was offended that Fotis had taken his truck to be cleaned. He said, and he wanted his truck back and they couldn't find the keys. And they said, we'll get it back to you. So there, there was a lot, we're going to hear a lot more about this truck and this worker. And, you know, it was definitely something that they believe was a major part of this crime. They believe that Fotis Doulos was lying in wait in the garage, that he had it planned out. He knew

that the five children after school were going to be taken to New York City to be with their grandmother, Gloria Farber. So he thought that he had plenty of time to do whatever he was going to be taken to New York City to be with their grandmother, Gloria Farber. So he thought that he had plenty of time to do whatever he was going to do. And you're right, there was a lot, there was evidence of a violent physical assault. There were numerous places where there was blood found that was cleaned up. And they also found all those cleaning supplies missing. The nanny had just said she had put in multiple rolls of paper towels in the pantry. They were all gone. Garbage bags were gone. So there was definitely a cleanup. And they believe, you know, we spent a lot of time in that neighborhood in New Canaan,

and we went around the back of the house. Her house was on on a court and if you cut through the back yard which is large there's a wooded area you keep going through that wooded area you get to another court and that could be where photos doulos entered into the back side of the property that's what we surmised on our investigation when we were there saying that this is a possible way he could have gotten in because all the security cameras from the other neighbors in the courtyard don't show anybody else coming in the front of the house so he must have got in as alleged through the back well i always love the moment i get to quote shakespeare oh what a tangled web we we when first we practiced to deceive. Now it's like two wet cats in a barrel. You've got the mistress, Michelle Traconis, and you've got Kent Mahwini. That was husband Fotis Dulos' lawyer,

who seems to be up in the plot. He's up to his tail hole in alligators. But if you need a refresher course, take a listen to our cut one. It's a CBS 2 New York reporter, Hazel Sanchez. Listen. The latest arrest warrant gives a clearer picture of what investigators believe happened on the day Jennifer Dulos dropped off her kids at school and then vanished. A home surveillance camera captured the last known photo of her walking up to her new Canaan home at 8.05 on the morning she disappeared. Police say Dulos borrowed an employee's Toyota Tacoma truck and drove to the home where Fotis Dulos is believed to have been lying in wait at 69 Wells Lane for his wife to return home. Police say Jennifer Dulos was the victim of a serious physical assault based on bloodstains and spatter found in the garage. According to the warrant, the crime and the cleanup are believed to have occurred

between 8.05 a.m. and 10.25 a.m. That's when surveillance images show Jennifer Doulos' SUV leaving the home. Police believe her husband was driving it with her body inside. Now the knives are out. You know, to you, I think I need a shrink. With me, renowned psychiatrist, Dr. Angela Arnold, joining me from the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find her at AngelaArnoldMD.com. You know, it does seemingly doesn't take much

because apparently Fotis Dulos' lawyer is turning on his mistress. And I guarantee you it's to save his own skin, Dr. Angie. Of course it is. Of course it is. And I'm sure, Nancy, don't you feel like they're all scratching their head because Fotis Doulos committed suicide? Yes.

Now nobody has any kind of defense. Uh-oh. And you know what we learned in medical school? Don't look for the zebras in the room, honey. This is right in front of us. And it sounds to me like it just has to be proved, but it is right in front of us. The truth is right in front of us. The truth right in front of us.

And joining me with what I believe will be that truth is Laura Engel, Fox News senior correspondent. You have to listen to her podcast, Murder in Connecticut, the Jennifer Dulo story. It's on Fox Nation. Hey, Laura, take a listen to this. This is our friend at NBC, Marissa Alter, Cut 23. Defense attorney John Schoenhorn today maintained the entire case against his client, Rassan Mawini, who was in custody until October, when his bond was reduced after meeting with state police. Schoenhorn says he still hasn't been told if Mawini made a deal. Did Mr. Mawini sing for his supper, to use an old phrase, and that's why he got out. Attorney Mawini's statement is one piece out of many

pieces pointing to the defendant's guilt in this case that the state mayor put on at trial. Traconis is also charged with evidence tampering and hindering prosecution. Today, Assistant State's Attorney Daniel Cummings argued all the charges should be consolidated for one trial. In essence, a joint trial would ameliorate the need to put on the same witnesses repeatedly to tie up judicial staff. It would expedite justice. Schoenhorn countered the motion is premature since he's filed to move two of the cases to the Hartford Judicial District. The judge made no decision on jurisdiction or combining the cases, but he did rule Traconis will keep her GPS ankle monitor while out on bond.

To Laura Engel, Fox News senior correspondent. What are the charges on the lawyer Mawinney and why? Yeah, they're they're dealing with hindering prosecution and tampering with evidence. They're kind of bulking that in. That's a very similar charges that Michelle Triconis is facing as well. And I do want to note that Kent Mawinney was, you know, kind of a friend of Dulos. He was somebody who dealt with Dulos in this boy, this divorce case with Jennifer Dulos was so messy, the custodial case, so messy, so drawn out. And he was involved in the initial stages of that. And so he was brought into Dulos's life during that time from what we have been what we see in the court records and also was having his own marital problems. So severe that he was also accused of spousal rape. He was accused of harassing. Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait.

The lawyer, Kent Mahwini, was accused of spousal rape. Did I hear that correctly? Accused, yes. Accused. shallow grave being dug on property that Mawinney and Dulos had access to. Again, it depends on who you talk to, but people who are members of a gun club, a hunting and gun club in the Connecticut area, of which Kent Mawinney was once a member of, in fact, a founding member of years ago and was not a current member of just before Jennifer Dulos went missing, reignited his interest in the club and said, hey, can I come and take a look at the property? I want to take a look around. I might

be interested in rejoining this club. This is a really wide open space kind of area, lots of trees, lots of dirt, and where people go hunting. So he allegedly went over to that club, got access to a key that went to a fence, and fast forward to after Jennifer Dulos goes missing, two hunters walking around stumble upon a tarp over a hole. They pull it back and they go, what's this? They pull it back and they realize that it's about six feet long. Bottom line, there was a grave dug. The cops get called and by the time the cops get back, the grave is filled. Gee, I wonder who did that.

Just around the time that Jennifer Dulos is murdered. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, back to the developing story surrounding the disappearance and I believe the death of a Connecticut mom of five, Jennifer Dulos. If you all remember at the time, to you Randy Kessler, high profile Atlanta trial lawyer, the defense for Fotis Dulos, the naughty, cheating husband, throughout everything you can imagine, kind of reminds me of Mark Geragos and Scott Peterson case. First, they said Jennifer just ran off with her boyfriend. What boyfriend? No evidence, no phone records, no self, no emails, nothing.

There's no boyfriend. Then they said it was a gone girl thing that she was pretending to be missing just to make Fotis Dulos look bad. Then they said, oh gosh, what did they say next? Oh, then they said she was insane, hysterical, like people always say about women. And then they said, oh, this was a really good one, Randy. They said it was revenge suicide. That she decided to kill herself, leaving her five children without a mother, in order to make him, Fotis Dulos, look bad. Now, I'm not a shrink like Dr. Angela, but I know what narcissism means. So she committed suicide just to make him look bad.

What about it, Randy Kessler? What do you think of all those theories? Well, I think all those theories have one thing in common, right? No body. I mean, you know, and I know there are lots of convictions. There are lots of convictions when there's no body. But if I was the defense, you know, you got to prove somebody killed somebody. And how do you best prove it other than showing the body?

You know, that's know that's that's a burden that's that's a burden for the prosecution and i think uh whatever the theory is someone's got to explain the disappearance and all those explanations yes they're conjecture but you know what they're just as wild to the defense as the fact that my client has something to do with the murder and you certainly know how to put perfume on the pig. I guess that's why you're so successful as a defense attorney. Now, you said conjecture, that all of those conflicting stories about Jennifer killing herself just to make photos doulos look bad, that's conjecture. You know, some people will call it an outright lie, dragging the victim through the mud, putting stories on the Internet for her children to grow up and read one day about their mother, their dead, murdered mother.

But that's just me. All right. I know you call it conjecture. You say tomato. I say tomato. It's really not that simple, is it? Straight back to Joe Scott Morgan, professor of forensic. You were telling me about partial DNA before I switched gears and went to Laura Engel. Can you follow up on that, please? Yeah, yeah, I can. And to esteemed counsel, Randy Kessler, I would argue this. You know, we do have a corpus delecti here, or at least an element of it, the body. I love it when you talk Latin to me. My husband's going to get mad. Go ahead. Hey, there we go. I've got my Black's Law Dictionary

right here. Yeah, this is what this is about, Nancy. We do have an element of the body. Let's keep in mind what Dr. Gill said, who's with the state medical examiner's office in Connecticut. Essentially, and I'm paraphrasing here, the amount of blood and the dynamic at the scene was essentially incompatible with life. And we have we they actually have identified that that blood, that copious, that huge volume of blood at the scene is tied back to Jennifer. Now, they've they've done that through DNA analysis. You know, there's enough of her that remains that they can do a comparative analysis. I mean, she's got children, she's got, you know, relatives and this sort of thing. However, this is the important part. Nancy, there is such a volume of blood at the scene. This is such a ghastly scene where we've got wipes, swipes, where there's attempts to

clean up. I'm sure they did things like luminol or blue star at the scene to recapture this. And we have bags of bloody claws and this sort of thing containing her blood. The normal human body holds about 1.2 to 1.5 gallons of blood. Just imagine if you will. Okay. Just envision you take a gallon of milk, of whole milk, and you drop it on the floor and this has never happened to you. It's horrible, but the gallon jug bust open and you have all of this, all of this blood or we're talking milk, but that's the amount of blood we're talking about. The doctor looks at this, the ME, without seeing a body. And he says, this amount of blood that're talking about the doctor looks at this the me without seeing a body and he says this amount of blood that you have here distributed every place this is incompatible

with life this is an in wherever this originated from on her is non-sustainable you can't sustain in other words you can't bleed that much and still be alive i think to boil it down for the jury guys take a listen in case you're trying to figure out what involvement does Fotis Dulos' lawyer have in Jennifer's disappearance? What involvement does the lover, Michelle Chaconis, have? Well, take a listen to Fox 61, Connecticut, WTIC, Jen Bernstein, our cut 24. Mr. Mawinney claims that although he had no involvement, that he was present at Fort Jefferson Crossing on the evening of May 23rd, 2019, and heard Fotis Doulos and my client talking about wanting to, quote, get rid of Jennifer Dulos. So get rid of, quote, unquote.

He claimed that that was crazy, that he wanted to have nothing to do with it. And he goes home that evening and the next afternoon, late in the afternoon, Fotis Dulos, according to the statement, calls him and says words to the effect of, we did it. And so as a result of that, there is now at least some indication that Mr. Mawinney is a state's witness. He admits during the course of the interview very readily that he's doing this because he wants to get out of jail, and he was rewarded for that. Well, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to get out of jail and being rewarded for telling the truth. Back to special guest joining us, Laura Engel, Fox News correspondent, host of Murder in Connecticut,

the Jennifer Dulos story on Fox Nation. Laura Engel, so do I understand that Mawinney was at Dulos' home when Fotis Dulos said he wanted to get rid of his wife? Well, we don't know about the conversation that was had. We do know that they did spend a lot of time together that week. And that is, you know, a lot of people have been saying, look, he's going to be this big witness. He's going to be able to tell us stuff as well as Michelle. But the other person that we want to look at as we get closer into this case and as we will get closer to the trial is that worker, Powell. Now, I spent almost 11 hours with Fotis Duos on December 20th, 2019.

He granted us an interview inside of his home and we spent a lot of time with him. And he did talk to us about this worker, not on camera, but after we were done. You know, he was talking about the fact that this guy was on his property and that he worked with him. He didn't directly point the finger at him, but kind of wanted us to take a closer look at this worker. I think that that was where kind of his defense was going to be going. But it was very interesting, Nancy. I talked to him on December 20th. And we learned, you know, when you're around somebody for that long, he was he was cordial. He was agitated. He kind of swayed back and forth with his emotions throughout the day. I handed him my

business card as I left. Now it's evening at this point. And he ended up calling me on my cell phone on Christmas morning, which completely threw me off guard. I mean, I was, you know, exchanging gifts in the neighborhood with my child and other children. And my phone rings. It's a Miami number. I don't know anybody in Miami. And I answer the phone and he says, hello, this is Fotis Doulos. And because I had just spent so much time with him, I knew his voice.

And I was so taken aback. I said, well, hello, are you calling to tell me anything new that we didn't talk about? And he said, I'm just simply calling to wish you a Merry Christmas. And then he asked me where I was. And I said, I'm in New York. I didn't want to give him my location. But it was just a really, really odd encounter. And then he was so adamant and wanted to talk to us again. He said, I'm looking forward to talking to you again when I can talk more freely

about the evidence in this case. Fast forward three weeks, three and a half weeks, and he commits suicide. So just a really bizarre turn of events in those 30 days for us covering this trial, covering this case. Do you believe, Laura Ingalls, that Fotis Dulos' defense attorney, Mahwini, is going to testify against Dula's mistress, Michelle Triconis. I believe that he probably will. There's been a lot of talk that he has been anxious to get out of the charges and not go back to jail. So I wouldn't be surprised if he did. But we've tried repeatedly to speak to his attorney who has not spoken to us, so I can't say for sure, but all signs point to that, right? We wait as justice unfolds. Right now, the so-called bone finder Bob Perry, after conducting experiments,

does believe that Jennifer Dulos' body may be somewhere on Dulos' property. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.