Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BOMBSHELL! NEW EYEWITNESS: I HAD SEX WITH LONG ISLAND SERIAL KILLER

Episode Date: November 9, 2023

Four potential new witnesses have come forward with information connecting Rex Heuermann to the Long Island Serial Killer murders One of the witnesses worked in a bank during the day and drove a taxicab at night. She signed an affidavit that she picked up Shannan Gilbert from a Sayville motel, but when she got the order from dispatch, was told the person she was picking up was so afraid she was hiding in a locked bathroom. The rider would only come out if the taxi driver flashes her lights and beeps the horn.   The cab driver says she showed up to the motel, flashed her lights, and beeped her horn but nobody came out of the motel. However, she did see "a giant man' fitting the description of Rex Heuermann come out of the motel.  When the girl finally comes out, she is crying. The driver believes this person was Shannan Gilbert Another witness claims Heuermann and his wife were swingers, and Karen Vergata took part in a party at Heuermann's home. A third potential witness contacted attorney John Ray and says she remembers being picked up by Rex Heuermann. She says he threatened her with a gun.  The fourth potential new witness claims she was a sex worker for many years, including the time the killings occurred. She said Heuermann was a serial user of sex workers, and he would sometimes have them come to his house, with his wife upstairs, Joining Nancy Grace Today: John Ray - Attorney for the family of Shannan Gilbert Dr. Joni Johnston – Forensic Psychologist and Private Investigator (performs risk and threat assessments on violent offenders); Author: “Serial Killers: 101 Questions True Crime Fans Ask” Robin Dreeke – Behavior Expert & Retired FBI Special Agent / Chief of the FBI Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program; Author: “Sizing People Up: A Veteran FBI Agents Manual for Behavior Prediction;” Twitter: @rdreeke  Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School Mary Murphy – Investigative Reporter, PIX11 News, New York City (WPIX TV); Recipient of 30 New York Emmy awards; Facebook: Mary Murphy Mystery, Instagram: @marymurphypix, Twitter: @MurphyPIX  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Rex Heuermann, the so-called Long Island serial killer, in the news again. This as yet another body emerges. Is that body linked in any way to the Heuermann case? In the midst of a new body being found just minutes from Heuermann's home, now four witnesses, seemingly impartial witnesses come forward identifying Rex Heuermann. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here at Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111. First of all, take a listen to this.

Human remains have been found in a wooded area not more than a 30-minute drive from suspected Gilgo Beach serial killer Rex Heuermann's home. The body, identified as 20-year-old Yonelli Ramos Moreno, was discovered in Sunken Meadows State Park on Long Island by park goers. The remains were along a trail at the eastern end of the park, which runs along Long Island's North Shore. At least six victims of the Long Island serial killer have been found on Gilgo Beach, which is along Long Island's south shore. Moreno's death has been ruled a homicide.

Interesting. This is a young male victim, Yaneli Moreno, discovered in Sunken Meadows State Park, just away from Rex Huerman's home. But it's my understanding that this is a more recent killing or is it? Will it somehow be connected to Rex Huerman? It's just minutes from his home. We know he's implicated in the murders of many other young women and possibly one Asian male found near those female dead bodies. But in the midst of investigating a new dead body near Rex Huerman's home, four witnesses have now emerged. Listen to the Gilbert family lawyer, attorney John Ray. This is a witness who has every reason to have no bias, no interest in the case whatsoever. She is not a sex worker. And instead, back in the 90s, in the 1990s, she was what is known then and now as a swinger.

And they would go to certain sex clubs in New York City where they would switch partners with other people of like kind. One of the most important places that they would go was called La Trapeze on West 27th Street in New York, right near Rex Heuermann's office. Okay, this is significant because this club, La Trapeze, is very close to Rex Heuermann's architectural office in Manhattan. And we know that a lot of the activity that is linking human back to the dead women, the sex workers, occur at his office. Remember, his wife and children are living in their home on Long Island. He catches very often the Long Island Railroad right there at Penn Station near his office to go home back and forth. And it's that hub, isn't it? Joining me, an all-star panel, but first to Mary Murphy, investigative reporter, PIX PIX11, also host of Hunt,

inside the 13-year search for the Gilgo Beach killer, and needless to say recipient of many emmy awards mary a lot of the cell phone pings a lot of the positioning of the suspected long island serial killer rex huerman happens around his office even uh the pizza that was discarded the food and drink that was later used to get dna wasn't near his office he was arrested near his office law trapeze is near his office so obviously if you look at his activity psychologically he uses his office as basically his bat cave that's a good way of putting it there was a box of cell phone pings located right near his office, right near Penn Station. And some of the victims who were killed in the Gilgo Beach case, their cell phones pinged near Penn Station and very close to his office. And we're told that one of the victims

whose names emerged after his arrest, Karen Vergata, that she was a streetwalker in Midtown. So regarding the newest, the newest thing, this witness that comes forward who goes to a swingers club where, you know, you swap partners, La Trapeze on West 27. How close is that to Hugh Herman's Manhattan Architectural Office? I would say it's only about seven or eight blocks away. Guys, that is maybe a 10-minute walk, maybe, if you're catching red lights. A 10-minute walk from his office. His office is often the hub of his activity. Joining me also, in addition to Mary Murphy, investigative reporter of PIX11, Robin Dreek, joining us out of Virginia, behavioral expert, former FBI special agent and chief of the FBI counterintelligence behavioral analysis program. And I love this book.

His book is Sizing People Up, a Veteran FBI Agent's Manual for Behavior Prediction. Man, we need you now, Dreek, because you can put words to what I'm trying to express. Let's go with Scott Peterson. Scott Peterson killed Lacey, his wife, we believe, in their home on Covina in Modesto. That was his lair. What was his other lair? His office, which had basically a storage area where he kept his secret boat, where he made cement, let me just say weights, we believe to weigh her body down.

What was his other lair? Where he would go fishing, his fishing hole, where her body was discovered and then later found not far away when it came up from the bottom of the water. I'm trying to verbalize that killers use the area with which they are familiar. You want to get rid of a dead body? Think about it. Everybody on the panel think, where would you go to get rid of a dead body? You know where I would go? Seven bridges in South Bibb County. It's swamp and there's seven bridges that go over it to link South Bibb County to the city of Macon. Why? Because I know where it is. How can you get rid of a dead body in a place you've never heard of explain what i'm saying drink because i believe his hub of activity is going to be not just his home uh in long island and gilgo beach where bodies were disposed of but his office right by this nightclub yeah 100 nancy and it comes down to what you said feeling comfortable comfortable and creating what he's established as a behavior arc of what where he feels safe operating because he's got reps in those areas.

And when we're dumping bodies in places, also, when you're doing it, you've got to feel safe in that area with the law enforcement in that area. So I think a lot of these things are actually putting a bigger point on law enforcement and what they saw and didn't see in questions there when it comes to the investigation. So, yeah, he's clearly displayed this behavior arc of feeling safe, operating in a secretive way from public view. You are hearing high profile lawyer John Ray. He is representing the family of Shannon Gilbert. Now you remember Shannon Gilbert whose body was found out on Gilgo. At first everybody said well yeah she's not really connected. This is just a coincidence. Who could buy that her body is near all the other women's bodies that are connected to Heuermann. And she just happened

to be dead right there. Okay. Now entering La Trapeze, the bar for swingers. What does that have to do with Heuermann? Listen. Sometimes several hundred people at a time would be involved in this place. It's heyday was right at the time that Karen Vergara is involved in this case. In this situation, this particular woman was dating a police officer from New York City who was in narcotics, a detective, and they would go to these switchy clubs, these swapping clubs. At or about Valentine's Day of 1996, the couple went to Le Trappiste, and I think it was on the wall at Le Trappiste where an advertisement was placed

to go to a house in Massapequa Park for partying, for switching, for swapping. And is it a true, Mary Murphy, that that is where Rex Heuarman lived with his wife? Yes, Rick Searman lived there and actually was raised there. He spent his whole life in Massapequa Park. OK, so this witness who was a swinger goes to La Trapeze. So what?

Wait for it. Listen. She went with her boyfriend out to Long Island. But before they went, her boyfriend picked up a woman in New York, in the city, and she was a sex worker. They went to Massapequa Park. They ended up going to Rex Uriman's house. In the house was the wife of Rex Uriman and the other girl, the other girl who we believe to be Karen Vergara. She, this girl, disappears downstairs at the house. Rex Uriman disappears. And according to our witness and other witnesses, when men are swingers, very often they switch sexually. They go back and

forth between male and female. And so Uriman leaves the main floor and disappears either into another bedroom or downstairs. The witness talks to Rex's wife. Okay, whoa. We're hearing all along the wife knew nothing about what was going on. But according to this witness, who is not a sex worker, wasn't getting paid by anybody, wasn't answering to a John, says that Rex Huberman's wife was part of this. Guys, this is a bombshell in this case.

Listen. As they're leaving, the witness points out that she could see in the window looking out the girl that had come with them. And she says to her driver, her partner, what are we doing? Are we taking her? And the partner says, don't worry. They're just playing a game. She stays there. No problem. With that, the girl runs out of the house naked and is running in front of the garage and now the witness says hey shouldn't we be taking her something's wrong here and the driver tells her nah they're just playing a game leave it and they leave they leave. They leave the girl there. We're talking about Karen Vergata, one of the dead women. And this is how it ends.

Listen. She never hears about the incident again. She distinctly remembers Uriman. She also had intercourse with Uriman that same day. On TV, she sees the picture of Karen Vergara, and she recognizes her and said, that's her, and she recognizes Rex Uriman. And so she comes forward. I interview her at great length. Detectives interview her. I interviewed her for a total of nine hours, and I found her story to be credible. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining us right now, high profile lawyer, John Ray.

You can find him at JohnRayLaw.net. And he is a chosen attorney for the family of Shannon Gilbert. John Ray, thank you for being with us. Thank you. Wow. This is a huge bombshell in the Rex Heuermann case. Because before, I was thinking, you know, John, you've tried a lot of cases and I love nothing more than DNA deoxyribonucleic acid which we have in this case don't have much of it but we have it and we have the wife's

hair on some and connected to some of the dead bodies. We've got the defendant, Rex Heuermann's hair connected to some of the bodies. But DNA, as you well know, can be argued away that it was a transfer, that it was an accident, that blah, blah, blah, blah. But when you combine DNA with an eyewitness that says, I had sex with you women. I know what he looks like. And I left caring for God and God helped me there that night. And she was never seen alive again. A witness willing to come forward and say, I was a swinger. Who wants to admit that on the stand? Ready to say that on the stand? To me, you know, when you have to put the devil in jail,

sometimes you got to go to hell to get your witness. Who do you think humans hanging out with? Nuns and priests and virgins? No. That, to me, gives this witness, your witness, more credibility, John Ray. Well, you should also know that it's odd why why they brought Karen with them if it was going to be, you know, a swapping between couples. And that now is explained fully and consistently through Mrs. Ellerup's lawyer, Robert Macedonio, he went on television recently and said that there's no way that John Ray's witness can be correct because because his client, Mrs. Ellerup, her human's wife, was pregnant at the time. So she would never have had sex.

That's perfectly. First of all, we know you can have sex if you're pregnant. But OK, hold on, John Ray. I got to write this down. This is significant. Hold on. First of all, we know you can have sex if you're pregnant. Okay, hold on, John Ray. I've got to write this down. This is significant. Hold on. So you're saying it's a couple swinging party, so why do you bring a sex worker with you when the women are going to be swinging and the men, they don't need a fifth wheel.

Right. But you're saying Elrutt was pregnant at the time and they needed that extra female. Am I getting this right? You are. But more importantly, it comes from the horse's mouth. It's Macedonio who's the lawyer for Mrs. Ellerup who posits that, who states that on national television. And so we also have that fact consistent with with the witness coming forward and saying that when she got there, Mrs. Elrop did not want to have sex and had turned away. The witness thought it was because the witness was African-American. But it turns out Macedonia gave us the correct explanation, which is that she was pregnant, didn't want to have sex. And by the way, that also explains why they picked up Karen Vergara in the first place, to bring her along to be the partner.

And we couldn't figure that out before we knew that about the pregnancy. So it's also very likely that the detective swapper who was driving the car to go there previously knew Hoyerman, that they already had a relationship. You mean Azen had swap partners before? Yes. Okay, hold on. John Ray, I'm not going to ask you the name, but do you know who the cop is? I do.

It's not out there yet right correct well he better expect a big fat subpoena coming his way and ain't gonna stay quiet for long guys with me is john ray the lawyer for shannon gilbert's family and now you see why he has interviewed this woman who is not a sex worker who has come forward and admitted yeah yeah, I was a swinger. I went to a lot of trapeze club. A lot of swingers go there. We all went to a party in Massapequa and this is what happened. I slept.

I had sex with Huberman. That's like eating a dirt sandwich to have to admit that. But in my mind, that adds to her credibility. Dr. Joni Johnson is with us, a very well-known forensic psychologist and private investigator. Dr. Johnson performs risk threat assessments on violent offenders, and she's the author of Serial Killers 101 Questions True Crime Fans Ask. You can find Dr. Johnson at drjonijohnson.com. Dr. Johnson, let me give you a good example. Okay, just recently we hear from that POC, Jorn Vandersloot, and he gives his confession, and I'm saying that with quotas. I'll believe one line on his confession. I killed

Natalie. The rest he fabricates to make himself look not as bad as he really is. He's the devil straight from hell. Dr. Joni, when you are assessing as you do statements, witnesses, defendants, victims. To me, it enhances this witness's credibility that she puts it out there. She's not holding back. She's not lying. I was a swinger. I went to this club. I went to this swingers party in Massapequa.

I slept with Rex Herriman, and I left Karen Vergara there. What do you make of it? Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, when you're doing any kind of forensic or legal investigation or assessment, you are evaluating the credibility of the witness. And that includes looking at things like what do they have to gain? What do they have to lose? Is the evidence consistent with what they're telling me? Are they willing to say things that might not put them in a favorable light? And all the things that you're talking about certainly indicate that this witness is willing to put herself in a light that other people might question or criticize. And so those are things that definitely add to her credibility. Guys, the bodies are piling up.

They're all pointing toward Rex Heuermann. And now four witnesses emerge. And I'll deal with the new discovery of another dead body there at Sunken Meadows State Park, just minutes from Heuermann's home in just a moment. I'm going to circle back to that. But these four witnesses, I can't tell you how important this is to the Long Island serial killer case. DNA, while its validity is hard to attack, its placement can sometimes be very easy attack. Do I have to say OJ Simpson? Uh-oh, Jackie is her head just spun around. I have to say OJ Simpson, and this is why. His bloody socks with the victim's blood on them were in his home after his wife and Ron Goleman were found murdered. But it was artfully argued at trial that the DNA

had been planted and placed. Do I believe that? No, I don't believe that. Was it successfully argued? Yes, it was the placement of the DNA. Why was it there? And a jury believed it. So while you can't really argue with the validity of DNA, you can argue with, was it contaminated? Was there a mistake at the crime scene or the crime lab? Was it planned? Just so many ways you can attack its placement. These eyewitnesses make all the difference in this case. We only know about a few of the victims. How many more

women have been murdered by Rex Hulman? And now let's get to it without any further pontificating on my part, take a listen again to our friend John Ray, witness number two. Take a listen to our cut to 18. The second witness who's come forward, this woman, she's not involved in any sexual activities whatsoever. She has nothing to gain by coming forward. She's not looking for a book or money or the usual things that you're hearing about out there. None of that. But she came forward because she's very disturbed about what she knows after she also saw Rex Yerman on and Shannon Gilbert. And here's her story. She's a banker by day, and at night, she worked extra in Suffolk County as a taxi driver to take care of her family,

with a one-parent family. And? As a taxi driver, she is called from her dispatcher to go to the Sayville motor lodge on sunrise highway and there's a girl awaiting her who's locked in a bathroom and will come out if she flashes her lights and beeps the horn and she goes there and does that several times it doesn't work but then suddenly a giant man who fits the description of Rex Uriman comes out and he's covering his face with his arms so he can't be seen and he runs to a van or

an SUV right nearby that's parked right there. So bank day, taxi driver at night. She goes to a pickup. It's at the Sable Motor Lodge on Sunrise Highway. And this is what happens. She continues to flash her lights and beep her horn. And out comes a girl crying, shaking, very upset and gets in her car. There they talk for a while. And then eventually they drive to the Ronkonkoma Railroad Station so that this girl can go back in to New York City. This girl was a sex worker who was servicing the big man. This girl turns out to be Shannon Gilbert. Now, Shannon

is lured into doing this particular tryst, and she's given an envelope or shown an envelope by the man that looked like it was stuffed full of money. And he tells her there's a thousand dollars in there. It's for you and your family, no matter what happens tonight. She looks in the envelope when he goes to the bathroom and it's stuffed with paper. And so she panics and realizes something's wrong. So she goes in the bathroom and he had become very aggressive, very angry. She goes in the bathroom, locks the door, and calls to get a cab, and that's how she comes out. They speak for over an hour, so the driver knows her well

and notices that she has a drooping eye, which is characteristic of Shannon, and also a characteristic of her family, by the way, going back for a generation or two. To John Ray, the chosen lawyer for Shannon Gilbert's family, and we're talking about Shannon Gilbert. Remember all along, she was the first body that was found, but authorities kept saying, yes, she's not connected. She's not connected. Well, apparently she is connected because this cab driver distinctly remembers picking Shannon up from being with Rex Heerman right down to the drooping eye. To Dr. Kendall Crowns is joining me, Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County, Fort Worth. Never a lack of business there, Dr. Crowns. Lecturer, University of Texas, Austin and TCU, Texas Christian University Medical School.

Pitosis refers to a drooping eyelid. It means the upper eyelid falls to a position lower than the other. Is that genetic, Dr. Kendall Crowns? It can have a genetic component to it. It can also be associated with trauma and medical conditions in which the neurological system is compromised, like in stroke. To John Ray, high-profile lawyer for the family of Shannon Gilbert, you're saying that Shannon's family in the past also had the drooping eyelid? Yes.

I checked with the sister, Cherie, and she mentioned that. So it was very consistent with the taxi driver's description. And there's no likelihood that the taxi cab driver saw that drooping lid from a picture, you know, a recent picture, say, posted on television. But it's possible, I suppose. But I also vetted this woman. And Rodney Harrison, the police commissioner of Suffolk County himself, sat with me for almost two hours vetting this woman's credibility as well. We did it together after I had already done it myself. So she's eminently qualified as a witness and a credible one. And her description fits Shannon

to a T. Even to the pullback here for the, you know, sex workers very often wear wigs. And Shannon was very much a user of wigs. So here she is coming out with her hair pulled back exactly as it would have been had she had a wig. So, you know, everything about that this woman said was credible. John Ray, I've been carefully going over literally dozens of photos of Shannon Gilbert. And what I notice is that very often she wears her hair in bangs that almost cover one eye. And when I first saw that, I thought it was just the style. Now I realize she may have been covering up or trying to cover up the drooping eyelid because, you know, people often try to do their best to cover up what they

perceive to be an imperfection. Also, I've seen her in many different and very, very different hairstyles and it's got to be wigs. I mean, in some of them she has like, her hair is, her head is full of ringlets and others, it's completely different. I mean, clearly she's wearing wigs, like you say, and that after prosecuting a lot of cases involving sex workers, I wasn't prosecuting them. They were typically witnesses in cases for me anyway. Wigs are part of the costume and they're utilized on a daily basis. So now we finally get the Heuermann connection to Shannon Gilbert. I mean, John Ray, all along when authorities were saying there's no connection, she just happens to be dead along beside Rex Uriman's other victims. Did you ever buy that?

The theory that the police espoused from the beginning was reduced to absurdity. And it still is. There isn't a scintilla of evidence that Shannon died other than by murder. Yeah, the theory that she got upset with a different John and wandered out into the marsh and died, that died of what? There was never any, none of that ever made sense. And remember, they couldn't find her body when they were looking for her out in the marsh, where she just disappeared. None of that made any sense. So that's two of the four witnesses. Dr. Kendall Crown's question to you, you've dealt with

literally thousands of autopsies. When you're dealing with a serial killer, here we see not only the same MO, modus operandi, method of operation of disposing of the bodies, but we see the same type of manner of death, cause of death. Is that significant when you're trying to identify the PERP, the manner of death? So the manner of death can be, is homicide, accident, natural suicide. Cause of death is probably what you're more referring to. Yes. Usually with causes of death, with serial killers, they do like to follow the same pattern.

They kind of have a routine. So you will see similar methods of killing an individual, similar methods of binding. As far as identifying them, you can cluster the cases together, possibly get DNA from them, but you can get people to copy, do copycat killings as well. So it doesn't necessarily identify them based on how they do it. Who is the next witness? Take a listen to R228. The fourth witness comes from another state. She was a sex worker for many years. She said that she would service Rex Uriman over 20 times and that he was a serial user of sex workers. He would

sometimes have him come two at a time to his house and his wife was home upstairs and in one instance got very angry at one of the sex workers because the wife believed that the worker had stolen an iron for ironing clothes and had it in the car with the driver. So the driver had to get out, everybody had to search the car. There was no iron, but the wife knew about it and knew about obviously what was going on in order for that to happen. Wow. And last, take a listen to our friends at Crime Online. The wife of Rex Heuermann has not been accused of any wrongdoing by police. They've even gone so far as to say they believe she was out of town when the murders of the Gilgo Four were committed. However, in an interview with the U.S. Sun, attorney John Ray points out he doesn't see how it's possible to ignore or refuse

to investigate Asa Ellerup in light of the purported evidence he has uncovered. Interesting to point out, hairs belonging to Ellerup were found on at least three of the women helping lead detectives back to Heuermann. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Mary Murphy joining us, investigative reporter who's been on the case from the get-go, PIX11. Mary, thank you for being with us again. Got two questions for you. And the first one is about Asa Ellerup, the wife of Rex Heuermann. She has not been charged. She's not been named a person of interest. But many people have wondered how she could not know what was happening. That was explained away by the fact that many of Heuermann's meetings with sex workers were when she was out of town. This paints her in an entirely different light.

We don't know what kind of relationship Ms. Ellerup had with her husband. We don't know the level of their intimacy. I can just tell you that when this indictment was announced back in July, the district attorney, Ray Tierney, took great pains to say he did not believe that the wife had any knowledge of what was going on. And even the police commissioner, Rodney Harrison, said he believed that Rex Heuermann was living a double life. I believe anything's possible. Perhaps there were sex workers that went to the house.

But from what I'm gathering from the top law enforcement people on the case, they did not think she had any involvement. I just wanted to mention a couple of things Rodney Harrison the former police commissioner who just resigned last week he was there for the vetting of the second witness that John Ray has met with and while he said that he wanted to look at all of these witnesses he didn't want to leave any stone unturned it should be noted that he was very cautious at John Ray's press conference. He didn't give up much information. He just said they would look at this information. And it was significant, though, that he was there with John Ray. I had never seen anything like that in my career. He actually left police headquarters to join John

Ray at his private attorney's office. Well I would not expect law enforcement to comment on potential witnesses at this juncture but you're right the fact that he's there with Ray when Ray is making the statements about four new witnesses speaks volumes he doesn't have to say anything for me to see that he's standing there in solidarity with ray also we learned about another creepy i'm not through yet on these four witnesses but another creepy fact has emerged take a listen our cut 242 from investigative reporter dave mack rex hewerman was so obsessed about showing off his hunting skills to a female colleague that he stalked her onto a cruise ship. Miro Henriquez tells CBS 48 Hours that Heuermann asked her

where she was going to be on her 40th birthday cruise. She told him, I'm going to be in the middle of the ocean, and you're not going to be able to find me in the middle of the ocean. Heuermann told her, oh, yes, I can. On the second day of her birthday cruise, a white envelope was shoved under her cabin door. It was a note from Heuermann. The note said, I told you I could find you anywhere. Okay, that's completely irrelevant to the trial on multiple murders, but wow, I wish a jury could

hear that because it tells me volumes about Rex Heuermann himself. Mary Murphy, what is the significance of the Saville Motor Lodge, where, according to one of these new witnesses, she made a pickup connected to Heuermann? The first thing that I thought of when I heard Saville Motor Lodge was the fact that just recently the feds locked it down shut it down for good because it was the scene of major sex trafficking over the years and so when the allegation was made that shannon gilbert was there and that she had allegedly met rex hugherman there i thought of all the human trafficking that was going on also the date uh john Ray in this affidavit, which was a sworn affidavit, noted that it was around 2009 in the fall. It would probably be September, October 2009 when this incident happened. And that was around the time earlier that summer that Melissa Barthelome

had disappeared. But she disappeared from the Bronx. She's one of the original Gilgo Four found on Ocean Parkway in 2010. So it becomes an interesting part of the timeline. Melissa Bartholomew disappears in the summer of 2009. And then in September, October 2009, this taxi driver allegedly saw a woman she identifies as Shannon Gilbert with Rex Heuermann at the Sable Motor Lodge. To John Ray, lawyer for the Shannon Gilbert family, in my mind, this is the icing on the cake for the state. Well, yeah, I suppose you could say so. But I just you know, you said that the the with Miss Enriquez, the Uriman's secretary, that the issue on the ocean cruise liner was irrelevant.

It's not. Actually, Rex Uriman, one of the items seized from him in the police inventory was survivalist equipment. Dr. Peter Hackett, who we have pinned as one of the people responsible

for Shannon's death, ran a company called Survivalist Dynamic. And he ran it with a man who was a sea captain for cruise ships. And the chances that Hackett and Heerman knew each other through this survivalist operation in Long Island are very strong. It's a very small group of people. They tend to connect with each other, meet with each other, et cetera. And it wouldn't surprise me if there was a connection.

There may very well be a connection in everything regarding tracking her down on a cruise ship may be true. But after all your years of trying cases, do you believe that evidence will come in in a murder trial? Not yet. Okay. And that is why it would be deemed irrelevant in trial. Not irrelevant to who Rex Heuermann is. That's why I played it.

Right. Because it tells me who he is. But it's not coming into trial because it has nothing to do with the victim, the Gilgo Beach victims. It tells me a lot about him, but a jury's never going to hear that. And I wish that they could. Dr. Joni Johnston, joining me out of California, what do you make of what you've heard? Well, I think there's so many interesting parts of this. And I'd have to agree with you, Nancy, that the whole issue of Rex Hurman tracking down one of his employees just to show her that he has the power to know where she is at all times speaks volumes about his psychology. And, you know, one of the things that has come up over and over in this case, and people talking about Greg Fuhrman and looking at some of the pornography he allegedly was looking at is this issue of sadism and getting pleasure out of causing other people to discomfort or pain. And that is very consistent with that.

Robin Drake, behavioral expert, former FBI special agent. What do you think? Yeah, I couldn't agree more. He keeps displaying a very consistent arc of behavior of control, power, sadism, and he targets and grooms, fitting all the profiles of someone that would do this. All these witnesses coming forward, though, really, it's helping the prosecution, I believe, like it's been stated. But at the same time, though, I keep coming back to we're seeing some law enforcement mishandling here as well. It really paints an interesting picture on what's been transpiring there. Yeah. And that is going to play into the defense because of the fact that there has been police misconduct in the distant past. But it was during these investigations. That's all they need to argue. This DNA is irrelevant, is planted, is tainted. They're going to use that. And that's

why these eyewitnesses that John Ray, a high profile lawyer is telling us about, become all the more significant because they corroborate the DNA. Mary Murphy joining us, Pixie Levin. Number one, the new body that has been found at Sunken Meadows is that of a young male. And it's believed it was a recent murder. Heerman's in jail. He didn't do it. But you know why I think it's significant, Mary Murphy? Because the defense can now argue, see, the killer's still out there.

It's not Heerman. Can't you just see that unfolding in court, Mary? Well, the first thing that I thought of when I heard about the body in Sunken Meadows State Park was, wow, could this be another victim? And, you know, I asked the police commissioner about that before he left office. He told me he did not think so. When I heard the name and when I heard the circumstances, I had to also think about the fact that there's a lot of gang activity and gang murders out in that area of Long Island in Suffolk County involving MS-13. We do not know the exact circumstances of the murder yet, but I was told that it was not connected to Gilgo. Hey, Long Island serial killer prosecutors, listen, you better solve that case so the defense cannot use it at trial.

We wait as justice unfolds. Hewerman back in court November 15. Goodbye, friend. This is an I Heart podcast.