Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BOMBSHELL OVERNIGHT ARREST after high school football star, Ahmaud Arbery, unarmed, shot dead: shooter claims citizens arrest.

Episode Date: May 8, 2020

An arrest has been made in the shooting of unarmed jogger Ahmaud Arbery. Two armed residents chased the former football star saying they thought he was a robbery suspect, claiming citizen's arrest. As he was confronted by the residents a struggle ensued and Arbery was shot in the abdomen. Joining Nancy Grace today: Ben Crump, Civil Rights Lawyer, bencrump.com Jason Vaughn - Ahmaud's High School Football defensive line coach Dr Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills, follow on instagram at DrBethanyMarshall James Shelnutt - 27 years Atlanta Metro Major Case detective, SWAT Officer Attorney Medical Examiner Dr. Tim Gallagher - Medical Examiner State of Florida  Levi Page - Investigative reporter Crime Online  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Goodbye, friend. Keep the faith. A shooting death has rocked not only a community, but a state and a nation. Of course, I am talking about the shooting death of a young 25-year-old man, which has now spurned incredible activity amongst local law enforcement. I'm Nancy Grace. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How did a young man go from jogging in a neighborhood to suddenly ending up dead on the ground, shot twice. What happened? With me, an all-star panel to figure it out. Of course, again, I'm talking about 25-year-old Ahmaud Arbery. With me, civil rights lawyer, you know him well from the Trayvon Martin case,

Ben Crump. On the case, you can find him at bencrump.com. Another special guest joining me is Ahmamad arbery's high school football coach a native of brunswick georgia jason vaughn dr bethany marshall psychoanalyst to the stars joining me out of beverly hills at instagram dr bethany marshall james shelnut 27 years metro major case sw now lawyer, the medical examiner for the entire state of Florida, Dr. Tim Gallagher and CrimeOnline.com investigator and reporter Levi Page. In the last hours, we learn charges and arrests have gone down. Take a listen now to the GBI. We were officially

requested to become involved late Tuesday evening when Mr. Durden and I had a conversation probably about 9 30 or so that evening. He graciously requested us to come in and we immediately accepted that request. I advised him that we would hit the ground running very hard Wednesday morning. So about 10 o'clock Tuesday night, I relayed that request down the chain of command to the deputy director of investigations, Scott Dutton, who is standing up here with me to my left. And then deputy director Dutton began putting together a team to begin the investigation from our perspective early Wednesday morning. Sometime during the morning hours of Wednesday, we were able to secure our hands on the file, the investigative file, which had been done previously, and the agent spent the

rest of that day pouring through that file to make sure they understood what had been done in the case and what they thought needed to be done in the case and what they thought needed to be done in the case, reviewing interviews and things of that nature. They spent the remainder of Wednesday until very, very late Wednesday night. I would know that voice anywhere. That is the voice of a longtime colleague, Vic Reynolds, who prosecuted with me in the inner city Atlanta district attorney's office for many, many years. An excellent trial lawyer and an excellent investigator. What a relief when the GBI took over this case. But why did it come to that? Let's just start at the beginning, how this whole thing started brewing until it boiled over.

Take a listen to the 911 call. or the other that house is addressed uh right at uh 2 19 or 220 satilla drive and you said someone's breaking into it right now no it's all open it's under construction and he's running right now there he goes right now okay what is he doing he's running down the street okay that's fine i'll get them out there I just need to know what he was doing wrong. Was he just on the premises and not supposed to be? And he's been caught on the camera a bunch of fortnight. Kind of an ongoing thing out here. The man that's building the house got heart issues. I think he's not going to finish it.

Okay, that's fine. And you said it was a male in a black t-shirt? He's not going to finish it. Okay, that's fine. And you said it was a male in a black t-shirt? He's not going to finish it. Okay, that's fine. And you said it was a male in a black t-shirt?

He's not going to finish it. Okay, that's fine. And you said it was a male in a black t-shirt? He's not going to finish it. Okay, that's fine. And you said it was a male in a black t-shirt? He's not going to finish it. Okay, that's fine. And you said it was a male in a black issues. I think he's not going to finish it.

Okay, that's fine. And you said it was a male in a black t-shirt? A white t-shirt. Black guy, white t-shirt. And he's done back runs. He's done runs back to the neighborhood. Okay. You were hearing the 911 call that started this whole thing. Now we know. Charges have been brought by the GBI, Georgia Bureau of Investigation of murder and aggravated assault in the jurisdiction of Georgia. Murder carries life behind bars, life without parole or the death penalty. Aggravated assault intentionally causing serious fear of death or bodily injury carries a penalty of one to 20 years. Repeat, Georgia is a death penalty state.

What an all-star panel joining me. Straight out to Ben Crump, civil rights lawyer on the case. You will remember him from the Trayvon Martin defense. Ben Crump, it's just so hard for me to take in this series of events. And then to claim citizen's arrest. That is what we understand. 64-year-old Gregory McMichael and son, 34-year-old Travis McMichael, are claiming. Yeah, Nancy, and it's just asinine. And I know we've covered many cases.

And this is one of the most shocking ones. When you think about you have that horrific video that literally has them like a lynch mob, almost chasing this young black man through the community where he is just jogging, minding his business, and these two vehicles are chasing him. You imagine, what is he thinking? Are they trying to kill me? What did I do? And they are running after him, and they say they believe he burglarized a home. Now, Nancy, he has T-shirts and shorts and jogging shoes on.

He doesn't have a burglar's mask. He doesn't have a burglar's bag, a burglar's tool, any of that stuff. And so it begs the question, when the police got there, the first police on the scene, they just took their word as the gospel. They didn't do any county investigation, apparently, because they let the killers go home and sleep in their beds at night. And when everybody, whether USA Today, New York Times, CNN, they said, well, we've called everybody. There have been no calls of burglaries in this community. Hold on, hold on.

One thing at a time, Ben Crump. You're right. I've investigated the number of burglaries in that community. There's only been one that has been reported to police, and it was the burglary of a vehicle parked out on the street and a gun was taken out of it. So I want to get back to the claim of citizen's arrest. That is what we understand Gregory and Travis McMichael are claiming in their defense. You said something being corrupt that I want to follow up on. You said that Ahmaud Arbery was being chased by two vehicles. Now, I think you may be right because somebody was taking that video.

The Michaels weren't taking it. Arbery wasn't taking it. Tell me what you can shed light on regarding two vehicles facing Ahmaud Arbery. Yes, ma'am. It was the pickup truck with Gregory Michaels in the back with a gun and his son driving. And another gentleman who we believe name is William Bryan, who we believe will be arrested as an accomplice. But he was the one who was trying to make sure he cut off Ahmaud Arbery.

And he's the one who videotaped the execution of this young man in broad daylight. And I apologize to Mr. Bond. I know he knows a mom personally, but it's just that's what it was. Hold on just a moment. Are you saying William Bryant, B as in brother, R-Y-A-N-T, or B as in brother, R-I-A-N? Bryant, B-R-Y-A-N, I believe. Gotcha, William Brian. Now, let me understand this. Chasing him, two vehicles,

how did the second vehicle get involved? I believe the McMichaels, well, the Gregory or Travis called him and said, hey, we see this black man running and let's go get him. We think he's burglarizing our community is what they said. But, you know, you go back and you ask yourself, Nancy, why do you have a shotgun and a.357 Magnum pistol to go, who has a T-shirt and shorts on who's jogging.

Well, you're right. But I guarantee you at trial, because this is headed to trial right now. These are just GBI charges, Georgia Bureau of Investigation. There's going to be an indictment. I guarantee you one way or the other, come hell or high water, and they will have a right to explain this on the stand. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys we are talking about the arrest of Gregory and Travis McMichael, ages 64 and 34, respectively, in the night.

Why? Why did it take so long? Joining me, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, Levi Page. Levi, what took so long? So, Nancy, the Glynn County District Attorney's Office had this, and because Gregory McMichael had been an investigator there for decades, they wiped their hands of this case, and a special prosecutor was brought in, Prosecutor George E. Barnhill of Georgia's Waycross Judicial Circuit, and he claimed that Mccmichael's son carrying yes they claimed that they were

carrying their weapons legally under georgia law that they were right to make a citizen's arrest and that this was in self-defense and there was insufficient stop right there stop right there because i got to go to james shelnut 27 27 years, Atlanta Metro major case, SWAT, now lawyer. Did you hear what he just said, what Levi Page just said? Citizens arrest. That is not the citizens arrest statute in the state of Georgia. It's just like saying, oh, I just saw Jackie Howard's shoplift. I'm going to go shoot her in the parking lot.

That is not what citizen's arrest is. Explain, James Shelnut, why this is so wrong. This will never stand up in a court of law. It's wrong on a couple of different levels. Number one, the citizen's arrest statute in Georgia says that in order to make a citizen's arrest, a private citizen must have a warrant. warrant however there are exceptions to that one is if the private citizen witnesses a violation of state law that is committed that they witness or is committed in their immediate presence okay based off everything that i've seen on the. They can't even get past the first hurdle, which is they didn't see this young man

commit any type of offense. And look, I'm not just jumping on the bandwagon. I am saying what I believe to be true. A citizen's arrest, and everybody's screaming about Georgia citizen's arrest. There are citizen's arrest statutes

all across the country. None of them allow a citizen to apply deadly force. In other words, kill somebody to apprehend a fleeing felon. And even if it is a felon, you have to see the felon commit a crime. To Ben Crump, civil rights lawyer, you know him from the Trayvon Martin trial. If you take the McMichaels by their own words, they say he looks like a guy we think broke in before. And we see him coming out of a house under construction, which means there's no walls or doors.

He's coming from that area jogging. That's how I read the police report, Ben. Absolutely, Nancy. And it's so hard when I talk to my clients, especially his father, to say why they didn't arrest him on day one. Because if the roles were reversed, he said he doesn't have any doubt that if this was a mosh and him who got in a pickup truck with this shotgun and this.357 Magnum and they chased Greg McMichael's son,

a young white man, and killed him in broad daylight, they would have been arrested for day one. They could have said citizen's arrest. They could have said self-defense, stand your ground. We cannot have two justice systems in America. One for black America and one for white America and that is underscored in this case over and over again. Ben Crump, I've got to say

you're absolutely right. If the roles were reversed and two black males chased down a white 25-year-old football star and shot him dead and they claimed citizen's arrest, oh, no, they would have been laughed out of the court. You're right about that. And nobody wants a two-tiered justice system. Guys, in the last hours, we know that the GBI, headed by Vic Reynolds, a longtime colleague of mine, has made an arrest and an announcement. These are GBI charges, which I believe will be followed by a formal grand jury indictment? Take a listen to this. Early Thursday morning, yesterday morning,

running a plan of operation and what they thought needed to be done regarding the remainder of the investigation. They hit that pavement hard yesterday, doing neighborhood canvases, talking to other individuals who had already been spoken to, some individuals who had not. And then after the course of that investigation yesterday, about 5 p.m., we had a command staff level conference call with the boots on the ground agents here in Glynn County. And we were advised at the command staff conference call that they had established and the facts had established sufficient probable cause to seek arrest warrants against both Greg and Travis McMichael for felony murder and aggravated assault. Guys, you're hearing the voice of Vic Reynolds now running the GBI Georgia Bureau of Investigation. But how did the whole thing start?

Listen to this 911 call because I'm learning a lot by listening to the McMichaels' own words before they took off in that pickup truck. 9-1-1, what's the address of your emergency? I'm out here at Satilla Shores. There's a black male running down the street. Satilla, where at Satilla Shores? I don't know what street we're on. Stop right there! End it! Stop! Sir! Sir, hello, sir. Sir, where you at?

Hello? Hello? I just hate to hear it. I hate to hear it. Those are the last things that Ahmaud Arbery, just 25, heard. And I think of my children, my little boy, my little girl, John, David, and Lucy. They're not that much younger. Running down the road and suddenly finding out they're being pursued by a pickup truck with two guys with guns, and then dying right there on the pavement. Just think about that for a moment. Hold that thought.

And then for the McMichaels, and I would not be saying this judging the evidence this way if I had not seen the video myself and you can see it at crimeonline.com they are now saying that this 25 year old football star Ahmaud Arbery fought violently. Well, I guess he did. You see a guy jump down out of a pickup truck with a shotgun. You darn right you're going to fight for your life. Why did this have to happen? I want to go to another special guest joining us. It's Jason Vaughn.

This is Ahmaud Arbery's high school football defensive line coach, a Brunswick native. You know, Jason Vaughn, I spent so much time in Brunswick, Georgia. I've written a book about the area in one of my murder mysteries because of the Methodist Center, which is there at St. Simons. And we'd take off every summer in a church bus, about 45 miles an hour down Old 41 to get to your hometown. And it's beautiful. The live oaks, the Georgia coast, largely untouched, pristine, now marred by a crime that has torn the country apart. Can you tell me about Ahmaud Arbery? Ahmaud Arbery was just a special young man. I was his coach and teacher.

And he just had this smile that when you've seen him, it lit up a room. Many teachers can relate that we just love on some kids a little extra harder, and Ma was just one of those kids who, he was so shy, but once you can get him, you know, talking, you can get that smile from him,

and he can sense when you were having a bad day, and he would stand beside me, you know, if I'm having a bad day, and he'll mimic me and say, hey, I'm Coach Vaughn today. Y'all get to class. And he would just get me smiling and literally change my whole entire mood. He was just that bright light in our community. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about the death of a young man, a high school football star. Two adult males, former lawmen, charged with murder and aggravated assault.

The Georgia Bureau of Investigations has now stepped in, headed by longtime colleague Vic Reynolds. Take a listen to this. Those agents then immediately yesterday evening, sometime around the six o'clock hour or so, began securing the warrants through the assistance of a Speer court judge in the Glen County area. Those warrants were secured. They went, came back to their command center staff and began putting together a plan of operation to effectuate the arrest. And about 7 45 that was in fact done yesterday evening without any incident. no one was hurt and neither the defendants nor any of the agents and so that was done properly and safely and we're very thankful of that those individuals were then turned over to the glenn

county sheriff's department and have been placed in custody at that particular jail so that's where we're at today you were hearing a longtime colleague vic rey Reynolds now running the GBI, Georgia Bureau of Investigations, who stepped in, as he should case, civil rights attorney, that she said she hasn't been able to bring herself to look at the video. Did you hear her say that, Ben? Yes, Nancy. And I don't think anybody in his family have been able to watch the video except his sister. And when she watched it, she was so outraged that uh it killed her mother and father over again because she was trying to describe to them how ahmad was executed and the fact that ahmad was running from them you know they say flight

a fight well he tried to take flight until they cut him off. And then at that point, you're fighting for your life. You're like, these guys got a shotgun. They're yelling at me. And it's just unbelievable when you think, what was Ahmad thinking? Why are these guys chasing me? What did I do wrong? I'm just exercising and jogging. I know Coach Bond probably knows it. Everybody has said in that community Ahmad was physically fit. He prided himself on staying in shape. He would run four or five miles every day. So it wasn't uncommon for him to be jogging. And so for him to be chased by, you know, Nancy,

it's hard to look at that video and not harken back to yesteryears when you did see, you know, these images of lynch mobs chasing young black men and killing them and then not having any accountability, going home and sleeping in their bed at night as if their life didn't matter at all. And that's what his mother and father and his family have to deal with. And I think that's why they can't bring themselves to watch that video. You know, to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining me from Beverly Hills on Insta at Dr. Bethany Marshall. Dr. Bethany, I think that there's also a psychological reason that they can't look at that video? Nancy, it would be too traumatizing to know what happened to their son, a nephew, a cousin, a brother, a family member, a member of the community, a student, a star athlete, all these things that are being described about Aubrey, to see what he experienced to put themselves in his mind, Nancy, that would be too traumatic. You know, some things we just cannot digest, especially if it's a family member.

We can't think it. We can't know it. It would completely overwhelm our ability to cope. The nation is outraged. The nation can't stand to see this. The nation cannot stand to know that this happened to this beautiful star athlete. How could his own parents look, hear, see, and witness and bear witness to such a horrifying, tragic ending to their son's life. It's unthinkable. And, you know, Dr. Bethany, I put all my love, my emotion, my energy into the twins and to just see all those dreams, not just mine, but theirs, just end.

And, you know, Bethany, I've told you many times, I've never brought myself to go to the scene of the crime where my fiance was murdered shortly before our wedding. I just don't want to see it. I don't want that in my head. There's already enough there regarding his murder. And Bethany, I remember when Lucy and John David were born so premature, they originally thought Lucy was blind. And at one juncture, they had to inject a needle into her eye area. And I just didn't think I could stand it. And my husband said, you can leave.

I'll stay. I'm like, no, I'm staying here. I'm staying with her. And I stayed with her and held her little, little bitty baby. He knows she's born at two pounds. And that nearly killed me watching that. Can you imagine Ahmaud Arbery's parents having to watch this video? Nancy, I remember on court TV, after you had the twins, you were so worried that something would happen to them, something bad, that I would be on set with you and you would write me notes about the dreams you had that bad things have, you know,

that somebody would kidnap the twins, that some harm would befall them. And you couldn't even bear to say it. You didn't want to say it on a hot mic. You didn't want people in the control room to hear it. But you just had to say it to somebody to get reassurance. You know, in the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, when you look at trauma and post-traumatic stress, one of the things that causes trauma is witnessing a traumatic scene. You don't have to be in it to be traumatized. Witnessing it is traumatic. So I think even people listening to this show, people who have seen the video, it's important for them to process with their friends, loved ones, with a therapist, what we're all seeing and talking about. I just hate it, Bethany.

So that we as a nation don't become traumatized. The mom and dad are going to look at that video to Dr. Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the entire state of Georgia, excuse me, of Florida. Dr. Gallagher, what exactly were the wounds that we know of as of right now to Ahmaud Arbery? Well, we know that Ahmaud Arbery was shot two times with a shotgun. And a shotgun is one of the most powerful weapons that you can have in your hands. For those of the listeners who are unfamiliar with the shotgun, a single bullet comes out of a regular handgun, but out of a shotgun comes many, many projectiles at the pull of the trigger. A close-range shotgun injury is almost 100% fatal. Having two shotgun injuries is certainly going to be fatal. Anyone who leaves their vehicle carrying a shotgun and

a.357 Magnum is up to no good. Dr. Gallagher, let me clarify in my own mind and for the listeners and viewers, what does a shotgun blast wound look like as opposed to, let's just say, a.22? Well, a.22 is a very small gun. It's probably one of the least powerful handguns or rifles that you can carry. Typically what we find is that a 22 projectile, a 22 bullet will enter into the body. It will cause damage, but it is too weak to exit the body. There's typically no exit wound with a 22. And a very small entry wound. A very small entry wound. Sometimes you really have to look for them. They're just that small.

But if you can compare that with a shotgun, and I'm going to just try to not be as detailed for the listeners, but there's a very— No, tell me the truth. I don't care what the truth is. Just hit me. All righty. Well, the entrance of a shotgun is extremely large. It's probably the size of a half dollar or even greater than that. There are many projectiles that enter the body and go off in different directions.

And then those projectiles actually exit the body in a very large pattern, maybe sometimes the size of, say, a teacup saucer. And when they exit the body, they exit with a lot of blood. They push some of the organs out of the entrance wound as well as some of the bones and blood vessels. So it's a very devastating, very fatal injury. We don't have many people that survive a close-range shotgun blast of any type. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. With me, Dr. Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the state of Florida.

You are hearing what happened to Ahmaud Arbery. We are talking about the death of a 25-year-old young man. In the last hours, the GBI has handed down information regarding an arrest on two charges, murder and ag assault. I just heard Ben Crump, civil rights lawyer, also on the case. Ben, was that you? It was, Nancy. Jump in. And I just want to interject, and I'm going to have to leave in a minute, Nancy.

I understand. Amon's birthday and his family has something special that they're going to try to do. I know they are. In his memory. And it underscores how difficult of a day this is. The rest was a small birthday gift. But as my client, his father, Marcus, said, we would just much rather have our son back. We wish we had him on his 26th birthday he said

we spent every birthday his whole life with him this is the first one they won't have with him and if i listen to the medical examiner explain the trauma that his body must have endured from those shotgun bullets. It's just so tragic that his life had to end that way. And you heard Coach Bond and everybody who has talked about Amon just say he was a wonderful young man. He was a giving, caring person. His father said if he had his last dollar in his pocket and you needed it, Ahmaud was the kind of guy who would give it to you. Well, Ben Crump, you better buckle your seat

belt because you know what's coming next. All right. Just like with Trayvon Martin, Ahmaud Arbery is going to be dragged through the mud. Do I like it? H-E-L-L-N-O. But it's going to happen. So after you get through this day with Ahmaud Arbery's family, when they're ready, you better sit them down and tell them what's going to happen. And they're going to have to endure it and stay strong with the eye on the prize. And that is justice. Justice in this case. And it's going to hurt.

Awful. It's going to be terrible on them. But they've got to keep their eye on the prize. And let me tell you something else, Crump. It is cold comfort to get justice when you want your son back, when you want your love of your life back. But that's what we've got. That's what they have. That's all they've got to look forward to right now.

To Jason Vaughn, I was just telling Ben Crump, civil rights lawyer, a lawyer on this case. You can find him at BenCrump.com. Jason Vaughn with me. I'm on Arbery's high school football defensive line coach. I know Arbery's going to get dragged through the mud. Everything he's ever done wrong is going to be pulled out of the closet and put on the front page. I'm ready for it. But I want you to tell me, why was he a football star? I know he was one of the MVPs and played in the All-Star game. Tell me about him.

You told me about his smile. What more can you tell me? I just want to tell you about his character. He was a leader on the team. Just one of the most vivid stories I can remember about Maude. At the end of practice, we're running these sprints. We got these guys running these sprints because they didn't have a good practice. And the whole time, Maude is just so encouraging, telling those guys,

hey, we got to keep going, keep your head up, you know, stand up tall. We had one guy who couldn't quite make the time. Maude sprinted all the way across the field, went and grabbed that man, had him and just took the man's arm and threw it around his shoulder and literally started to jog and pull him in with him over the line so that young man could finish that sprint on time. And that's the kind of guy Ahmad was. He was always running out and looking out for others,

trying to do it for others, using his strengths to make other people strong. And that's why I say I don't run this race. I run with Maude, a young man who had great endurance, a young man who was loved in our community. He would run all around our community and he would take the time to stop and play basketball with the kids. And he'll play three or four games with the kids until the neighborhood kids got tired. And then as soon as they got tired and went in, he would go right back on his run because that's the kind of guy he was.

Running outside in this beautiful area near the beach, it gives you so much clarity with the wind and everything blowing. And he could just literally just free his mind and run and just forget about all the problems of the day and just forget about all the problems of the week. And so he was out doing something he loved, something he enjoyed. And our whole community is saying the same thing. That Ma was a runner in our community. The kids knew him and loved him.

Neighbors knew him and loved him. They would speak to him as he went down the road. He was a son to our community, that bright smile in our community. And we know that the road to justice is going to be long. But once again, I'm not using my strength. I run with my. And this community does as well. Let me tell you, you're right about that. The road to justice is going to be long, rough, and rocky. And nobody can walk it for Ahmaud Arbery's parents.

They've got to walk it alone until they get to the end of the road. What you just said breaks my heart that he said, keep your head up. Keep your head up. Guys, we are talking about the death of a young 25 year old man, Ahmaud Arbery. And he, like every other 25-year-old man, was not always an angel. But for the most part, I've got to tell you, this was a great kid that was growing into a great man by all accounts. Now, how did this happen? According to these two defendants, Gregory and Travis McMichael, there had been a rash of break-ins in the area, and I know the area very well. A lot of construction going on there.

But when you compare what they said to the reality, only one police report, that's all we've been able to find, in that neighborhood, and it was of a car parked out on the street, and a gun was taken out of the car. What rash of burglaries. The McMichaels, as I understand it, Levi Page, also said that Ahmaud Arbery looked like the guy in the surveillance video. Hold on just a moment. To Jason Vaughn or Ben Crump, I believe I'm getting background noise from you.

If you could mute yourselves, that'd be great. Levi Page, go ahead. You're correct, Nancy. The McMichaels had said that there was a man outside the area near this home that was under construction that matched the description of Ahmed Harbury. But, Nancy, they said that he matched the description. How could they be 100% sure that it was him? Well, you know what? Let's just take them at their word. And this is why I'm doing that,

James Shelnut, 27 years, Metro Major Case, SWAT, now lawyer. Because even if what they said is true, that he looked like somebody that they thought was a burglar, if that's true, that still does not justify deadly force. Because when somebody's running from you and you go after them, there's no claim of self-defense. Even cops are not entitled now to shoot a fleeing felon unless they're presenting a danger. Yeah, no, you're 100 percent correct. And what they did was illegal in the first place. And then now Georgia law is going to prevent them from arguing. And common sense prevents them from arguing that, hey, we did something illegal.

Now this guy attacked us and we were acting in self-defense. Yes, that's not what happened. And number two, even if you're looking at this statute, the citizens arrest statute, you can only use deadly force if you are lawful or you're preventing a forcible felony. None of those things apply. This statute doesn't apply. And even taken on their face, they have no claim under citizens arrest. They are going to be prosecuted. You know, James Shelnut, everybody's on fire about the citizen's arrest statute.

There's a citizen's arrest statute in almost every jurisdiction in the country. But what happened with Ahmaud Arbery is not a citizen's arrest. Number one, citizen's arrest is very akin to vigilante justice, or as I call it, vigilante injustice in this case. You have to see the person committing a felony, and then you are to pursue them if you're doing a citizen's arrest, but not with a gun. In no statute is a citizen allowed to shoot down another citizen. Yeah, I agree. The only way that they're going to be justified in this, and they're not, by the way, but the only argument that they could make is, hey, we were acting lawfully under the citizens arrest statute,

and this guy attacked us. Well, they're going to be prevented from making an effective argument on that because what they were doing in the first place was illegal, and you can't be doing something illegal and then claim that you're attacked and that you're justified in using deadly force. And also, when you're the aggressor, you can't claim self-defense when your prey turns around and fights back. Guys, we are waiting as justice unfolds right now. There are GBI charges and we are waiting for a grand jury true bill. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

Guys, before we sign off, let me tell you about an incredible new true crime podcast hosted by our good friend, Karen Smith. You know, the word forensics often brings to mind white lab coats, latex gloves. But forensic detectives spend their days rushing from crime scene to crime scene with no resources to help them deal with the emotional fallout that follows. Brought to you by CrimeCon, this new podcast, Shattered Souls, a forensic detective's diary, follows forensic detective veteran Karen Smith as she revisits poignant and detailed journals to share the stories of victims you've likely never heard of, but who she can't forget, and the shattered souls left behind in their wake. CrimeCon Presents Shattered Souls debuts May 9 on your favorite podcast streaming platform.

Learn more at CrimeCon.com slash podcast. Here's a special sneak peek. In this nightmare, I'm back in the autopsy suite and her teeth unstick from her lips, and she gurgles at me, please help me. There's somebody out there on the ground in a police outfit. Oh my God. Okay, sir, tell me exactly what happened. My name is Karen Smith. For 11 years, I was a forensic detective in Jacksonville, Florida. But right now, I'm just someone with stories to tell.

Stories of victims you've likely never heard of. And the emotional toll that working around death and destruction has on the people tasked with finding the answers to what happened to them. There are things about it that are deeply rooted. There's just too much blood for that. And sometimes you just can't get over it. I was scared to death. We had a really worst case scenario.

None of it made any sense. And when we rolled her body over... When you see something like that, you get angry or you just shut it down. Detectives taped a wire to Jimmy Jackson's chest. How did you do it? That is the voice of a terrified man. I told you I'd do what I had to do. We had an unidentified victim, whodunit murder.

And that's a little bit unusual. It was a really forceful crash. This truck looked like it could have been a crack rental. We have a dead retired cop. Whoever did it was savvy enough to pick the casings up and take him with him. And she put her finger in my chest and she said, you find out who did this. Follow along each week as I dig into my journals and relive the emotions, the pain, and the triumph of these hard-won victories for the victims and the shattered souls of their loved ones left behind.

Subscribe to CrimeCon Presents Shattered Souls, a forensic detective's diary on your favorite podcast platform. Available on May 9th.