Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BOMBSHELL! Sex killer Jodi Arias ensnares new boyfriend. Part 1

Episode Date: January 8, 2020

Convicted killer Jodi Arias has a new boyfriend. Benjamin Ernst apparently visits the cold-blooded murderer several times a month in prison.Meanwhile, Arias, who's behind bars for slashing and shooting former boyfriend Travis Alexander to death, is waiting on an appeal decision. Her attorneys declared her murder trial "unfair," citing a media frenzy and a supposed corrupt prosecutor.Joining Nancy Grace to discuss: Kirk Nurmi: Arias' former Attorney & Author of "Trapped with Ms Arias"  Bobby Chacon: Former Special Agent FBI, Star of FB Watch Series, "Curse of Akakor"  Dr. Caryn Stark: Psychologist Joe Scott Morgan: Forensic Expert, Professor of Forensics & Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet" Alexis Tereschuk: Investigative Reporter at Radaronline.com Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Jodi Arias convicted in the murder of her lover, Travis Alexander, brutally murdered. So many stab wounds, they really couldn't be counted. Somewhere between 27 and 29 stab wounds and then shot in the head. His body left to decay naked in his shower stall. We are awaiting the outcome of a Jodi Arias appeal in Arizona. We ain't heard the last of her yet.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace what's going on um our friend of ours is dead in his bedroom we hadn't heard from him for a while we think he's dead his roommate just went in there and he said there's lots of blood i didn't go in but i can give you the phone to someone who went in there can said there's lots of blood. I didn't go in, but I can give you the phone to someone who went in there. Yes, please, can you? Hello. Hi, so what's going on? He's dead. He's in his bedroom in the shower. Okay, how did this happen? Do you have any idea? No, we have no idea. Everyone's been wondering about him for a few days. She said that there was blood, so is it coming from his head? It's all over the place. Hold on just a moment. Okay. You're a good friend of Travis's, right?

Yes, I am. Okay. Has he been depressed at all? Thinking about committing suicide, anything like that? I don't think he's been thinking about it. He's been really depressed because he broke up with this girl and he was all upset about that. But I don't think he's been really depressed because he broke up with this girl, and he was all upset about that. But I don't think he would actually kill himself over that. Has he been threatened by anyone recently? Yes, he has. He has an ex-girlfriend that's been bothering him and following him and flashing tires and things like that. And do you know the ex-girlfriend's name?

Her name is Jodi. Jodi Arias is her name, a name that will live in infamy i'm nancy grace this is crime stories thank you for being with us jody arias convicted in the murder of her lover travis alexander even converting to mormon the mormon religion to please her lover travis alexander a devout Mormon. He ends up dead, his body decomposing in the shower stall with about 28 to 29 stab wounds. Nobody was ever sure how many because of overlapping stab wounds and a gunshot wound to the head in the prime of his life. Why? Although the state doesn't have to prove motivation, it was speculated because he insisted on breaking up with her and dating a new woman actually planning a trip with a new person

but as i said it ain't over yet right now an appeal hangs in the balance with jody arias as we learn disturbing new information regarding jody Arias spending the holidays with her boyfriend behind bars. What? With me right now on All-Star Panel, kicking it off with Kurt Nermy. That is Jodi Arias' former defense lawyer and author of Trapped with Miss Arias. I guess that title says it all. Bobby Chacon, friend and colleague, former special agent, FBI, and star of the FB Watch series Curse of Akakor.

Dr. Karen Stark, renowned psychologist, joining me out of Manhattan. You can find her at karenstark.com. Forensic expert, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. If that title doesn't make you want to read it i don't know what would joseph scott morgan joining me right now to radar online dot com investigative reporter alexis tereschuk alexis tereschuk i can always count on you to do some digging how the hey did you find out that joe and what is wrong with men

why do they why are they attracted to jodi arias look i'm not saying she's not pretty not to me because i know she's a cold-blooded killer and she's cray cray but a lot of men think she's attractive they think she's got a pretty face they think she's got a great body is that all they think that's a question for The Shrink. Because clearly, Alexis Terescheck, even from behind bars, she can lure men. What do you mean she had holidays with her boyfriends, her lovers? What? So, according to the records that I obtained from the Arizona Department of Corrections, in the last three months, she has spent hours and hours and hours with this gentleman named Benjamin Ernst. Ben and Jodi met.

And in fact, she had hatched this plot while she was behind bars to marry Ben. And she had even talked about trying to get pregnant by him, thinking that that would somehow get her out of jail. So explain to me. Wait, Alexis. I'm drinking from the fire hydrant here. It's too much too fast. Did you just say get pregnant behind bars? I did. Okay, I thought that's what you said. Now you have a baby, right, Alexis? A beautiful baby boy, correct? I do. You do know where babies come from, right? So how is Jodi Arias going to get a bun in the oven behind bars? Not under, is Arpaio still in power out there?

He is not. He's not in power of the jail anymore. Who's the new sheriff? Paul Pinzone. Oh, yeah, I love Paul Pinzone. That's right. Paul Pinzone. Paul Pinzone is not going to allow anybody to get pregnant behind bars.

I don't believe. So explain to me, Alexis Tereshak, how can Jodi Arias plot to have a baby from behind jailhouse walls? Well, this is just sort of one of Jodi's harebrained schemes. I think she thought maybe somehow they could smuggle some sperm into the jail and it would happen. Jodi's crazy. And that's what she was hoping that could happen. Maybe she was thinking it would be immaculate conception. where did you get that information how do you know that she wrote this in a letter to her i believe that we're in mitigation specialists maria de la rosa she wrote in a letter that you know she was pregnant with ben's baby then maybe this would help her

in her sentence okay as much as i really want to go to dr karen stark psychologist joining us i'm sorry karen but i've got to go to Kirk Nermy. Arius, former defense lawyer who went through so much trying to defend her at trial, got a lot of hate mail, made a lot of enemies in his efforts to defend Jodi Arius, ending up with a big kick in the teeth. Kirk Nermy, now I'm beginning to understand your title of your book, Trapped with Miss Arius. What do you make of her scheme? I wouldn't even say that it's far-fetched because if anybody could do it, Arias could, to mitigate her sentence by getting pregnant

with her old boyfriend from behind bars. What do you make of that, Kirk? Well, look, I think it's consistent with the plan I talk in my book about this. Back then, it was more related to money and getting attention from men and getting their money. And this may be more of the same or it may be some plot or get out or some sort of scheme. And she's always got some sort of scheme she feels like she can play men with. And beyond that, obviously, Miss De La Rosa is not her mitigation specialist. She was her mitigation specialist. So she's got these people that she can convince of her victimhood and get them to advance her agenda. Well, we know that Jodi Arias

can spin a yarn. Does anybody remember her ninja story? Listen. I turn around. There are two people there. One was a guy and one was a girl. I couldn't tell that at first, but I could just see one was a girl and I saw the other was a guy because of their build and their voices. I remember they were wearing like maybe jeans. What did they say? One was in all black, one was in jeans.

Did they say anything? What words did you hear? What phrases? Um, who is that? Who is that? I thought he was by himself or alone or something. He was like, shut up, just finish it.

And Travis was screaming the whole time. He wasn't screaming like a girl. He was just like, like he was in pain, like he was in pain like he was like shocked you know he was he was still conscious and still alive. She just left him there. She's actually crying, Karen Stark.

Karen, she's so convincing that when she tells the police during interrogation that two ninjas dressed all in black broke in while she's, I guess, still having her sex marathon with Travis Alexander, trying to convince him not to take another woman to Cancun these two ninjas dressed all in black break in kill Travis and she escapes and Travis is screaming and did you hear go like this oh the whole time and she ran away she's actually crying as she recounts his story it's a big fat lie that didn't happen. What is wrong with her? She's a pathological liar. And so when she tells these stories, Nancy, for her, they're real. She's reliving what she sees in her mind and she can cry over anything. She's the most manipulative person. We know that.

So she comes up with lie after lie and it doesn't even cross her mind that maybe this won't be very believable because she just told about ninjas. And now she's changing the story again. And Jodi Arias will say anything to get attention and try and get people to empathize with her, see if she could change her sentence, fall in love with her. She's really good at that. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Aaron, you told me that you lived with Travis during the time he dated Jodi Arias. What was that relationship like? What did you observe, if anything?

You know, when they first met, Travis was on Cloud 9. Here was a very attractive young lady that he had met at that convention in Las Vegas. They shared a lot of similar interests and similar passions, a real drive and ambition in life. And so he thought he had found the one. And at the beginning of the relationship, everything seemed like it was going to go perfectly and possibly go all the way. You know, things deteriorated quickly. There were lots of trust issues. And she turned out to be not the person that he thought. Right there, Aaron. Let's not put perfume on the pig. What do you mean by there were a lot of trust issues? Well, you know, she's admitted in some of her statements that

she would go through his emails, his social media accounts, his text messages. There was a time when they were on vacation together and he was a sleeper in the shower and a text message came in from another girl and she responded to that girl as if she was Travis, telling her how happy that he was to be with her and she's the best thing that ever happened in an attempt to scare this girl away from Travis. Okay, what a wackadoodle. Okay, so she gets the now-deceased lover, Travis Alexander's cell phone. That's me speaking with Travis's friend, Aaron Dewey, and starts responding to a woman that had texted Travis Alexander as if she's Travis.

Now, I want you to hear, speaking of tall tales, take a listen to what, now remember, keep in mind, Arias has said to ninjas, broke in Travis's home while she's there having a sex marathon with Travis Alexander. And they slaughtered him and she managed to somehow, James Bond, sneaky snake, disappear, get away from the killer ninjas. But wait a minute, not so fast. What about this? i wasn't even close to him um what if i could show you proof you were there oh that changed your mind i wasn't there can you be honest with me joey i was not at travis's house there's not what okay now wait a minute. Bobby Chacon, former special agent FBI, current star of the FB Watch series Curse of Agakor, which is crazy in itself, but that's a whole other can of worms. Bobby Chacon, Curse of Agakor. Didn't she just say two ninjas broke in and murdered Travis and she managed to sneak away?

But wait a minute. She also said she was nowhere near there. And with a straight face, because I've watched the interrogation many, many times, she looks right at him and says, no, I wasn't there. And then suddenly the ninja story comes up. What happened, Bobby? Yeah, I think what she did was her initial lie, you know, was to say I wasn't there. And if you if you listen to that, if you listen to her response saying I wasn't anywhere near Mesa, that's not the way a normal person would respond. A normal person would say I was in San Diego or I was in Redding, California, or I was in New York. They wouldn't automatically say I was nowhere near

Mesa. Distancing herself already from it is a sign that she her mind is working to distance herself from that crime scene, which she knows she was at. So that response in itself, not saying I was in Reading or I was home with my grandparents in California. Rather, I was nowhere near Mesa would indicate to me as an interrogator that she's lying. And then so what happens is that's the initial response. I was nowhere near there. That's the initial lie. In her mind, she probably starts already analyzing that, saying, they're somehow going to figure out that I was there.

They're somehow going to prove, be able to prove that I was at his house somehow. So she adjusts her lie on the fly. Well, yeah, Bobby, didn't you notice when they said, the interrogator said, well, I could prove you were there. There was a long pause. There was a very long pause.

And I guarantee you there was some rapid eye blinking right there. So what do you do as a defense lawyer when your client, remember the appeal is happening right now. The appeal is hanging in the balance in Arizona. What do you do with a client who first says I'm nowhere nowhere near it, and then says, there was a home invasion by ninjas? Where else can you go? Listen to Kirk Nermy, the man himself, trying to dig his client out of the hole she dug with her own teeth. Something did happen in this moment of time. And the point of this, I think, is what this evidence shows you is that either what

happened is that Jodi Arias defended herself and didn't know when to stop or she gave in to a sudden heat of passion from a fight that began up in that bathroom and that what she did she did under that sudden heat of passion. Demonstrative of that is this idea, she doesn't remember any of it. So what I'm saying to you, ladies and gentlemen, is ultimately, if Ms. Arias is guilty of any crime at all, it is the crime of manslaughter. You're hearing Kirk Nermy trying to make a silk

purse out of a cow's ear. He's got a client that he's got to defend. The judge has ordered him to use all of his talents, all of his education, all of his expertise to defend Jody Arias. He gets in the ring and he tries. So what do you do with a client that's given multiple stories? None of them can coincide with the other. Kirk Nermy, joining me, author of Trapped with Miss Arias, a renowned defense attorney, defended Jody Arias. I've told you this story before, Kirk. I had a judge, Judge Alverson, who would tell every jury, it is your duty to make all witnesses speak the truth in puning perjury on no one. In other words, don't assume witnesses are lying because their story doesn't jihoss with some other witness.

Maybe they can both be telling the truth. Maybe one had a different vantage point. Maybe one heard something the other one didn't, and the stories are slightly different. But Arias, really, her stories are so widely divergent. There's no way to cobble them together to make a beautiful quilt. It ain't going to happen. So you went with self-defense. How difficult was it to represent Jodi Arias?

Well, it was very difficult. And in terms of we went with self-defense, remember, the client guides the story. She has the Sixth Amendment right to get on that stand. We saw her soaking up the media attention in that 18 days, and she wanted to make the claim of self-defense. But, you know, since you can't prove that a lie, like you were just explaining in your story, you have to let her get on the stand and say her piece because it is ultimately her life that is in jeopardy. Well, you're right about that. You cannot stop a client that wants to take the stand. Joe Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Joe Scott, when you hear someone like Jodi Arias, I just can't help but think that you're chomping at the bit because you know somebody that talks that much has got to have left a trail of evidence a mile wide.

Yeah, you're right, Nancy. And for her, she backtracked so many times and then offered these alternatives, you know, the ninjas, all these sorts of things. And I think that, you know, you kind of captured it there in the moment when she went to that pregnant pause where the police officer said, hey, listen, I can actually prove that you were there. She's thinking in her mind, oh, my God, have I stepped off into this thing? Because now, even if she doesn't know anything about forensics, she knows that she was there. And as our old friend LeCard said over 100 years ago, every contact leaves a trace. She has left something behind at that scene that is physically going to tie her to that event.

And not just that, as we find out, as the timeline goes on, there's this connectivity with her with these timelines, moving about, buying gas cans, and all these sorts of things that kind of tie her back to these events. It's a web that she just could not escape from. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. There's a lot of forensics suggesting that I was in his house. Of the evidence that they presented to me, I was asked the question, if you were presented with this evidence and you were a third party, what would you think?

And I need to be honest in it, the evidence is very compelling, but none of it proves that I committed a murder but none of it proves that I committed a murder. None of it proves that I committed a crime. What it does substantiate is what I did tell detectives. Did you, I have to ask you this, did you kill Travis Holt? Absolutely not. No, I had no part in it. Did he have any enemies at all? To my knowledge, no.

He had a strong personality, but he was very well-liked and loved. I just can't think of a single soul. So you had nothing to do with Travis Alexander's death? Nothing to do with it. Nothing whatsoever. She's adamant. I had nothing to do with it. At this moment, her appeal hangs in the balance.

Oh, oh, wait. Take a listen to this. You're the person who actually slit Mr. Alexander's throat from ear to ear. Yes. Wait a minute. What? Alexis Tereschak, is something wrong with my IFB? Because I just heard her say, I had nothing to do with it. No part of it. And then, did you slice his throat? Yes! It just comes out. Alexis Tereschik, now with all that in mind, you're telling me that some guy is visiting her behind bars and is in love with her? He is for years and years. And it's consistent. He spends his holidays with her.

He was there Veterans Day. You know, you get a day off from work to thank the people that have saved our lives and our country. And he travels and spends from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. in the prison with Jodi. And does this like. And I believe, according to your research, he also spent Labor Day with her. He did. Yeah, he spends holidays with her. Weekends, too.

He'll spend entire weekends throughout the month with her, a Saturday and a Sunday. Again, 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. One day, I think he got there at 9 a.m. He was a little bit late that day. But he spends the entire day with her, the whole weekend. This, on top of the fact that her appeal is very active at this moment, we're waiting to hear from the court. Now we learn in a headline that, Jackie, thank you so much for lifting my spirits

by giving me this headline. Jodi Arias new artwork website is now launched and live. It starts like this. Happy 2020. Quick post to let you know Jodi, Jodi's new artwork website is now launched and live at artbyjodiarius.com. Be sure to check out everything that's available. Limited edition prints, original colored pencil pieces with an extensive archive section. I bet they are archived because you know nobody. Actually, somebody is buying it. Now, a lot of it looks like she thumbs through.

And I'll have to go to you on this, Dr. Karen Stark, a psychologist joining me from Manhattan. At karenstark.com. It looks to me like she thumbs through magazines and traces pictures and then colors them in. Now, I'm certainly no art critic. You know that about me, Karen Stark. But I'm pretty sure she's tracing out of a magazine. But there's always people who are fascinated by the macabre. Right, Nancy? So they love the idea that she's in jail. So that's how you say that word. I've always wondered how you say that word.

Now, wait a minute. But what is wrong? No offense, Bobby Chacon, Kirk Nermey, and Joseph Scott Morgan. What is wrong with men? Like, there's not enough women. Jackie's single, people. people yep she's raising both hands what I'm saying is aren't there enough women on the outside do they have to go to a convicted killer that sliced her last lover well that I know of her last lover throat ear to ear what why

what is wrong with them Karen they are attracted to the fact that she's notorious. That's the appeal, Nancy. Women do it, too. Women write to men who have been in jail. Look at all the women that were in love with Ted Bundy. There's an appeal to these guys. They don't want to believe that this beautiful woman who can cry at the drop of a hat actually is capable of murdering or anyway, she would not murder them. Maybe she would murder them. They don't understand in the mind

of somebody who's a psychopath that this person can't love, that no one is real to them. And they find it extremely appealing. You know, Alexis Tereshchuk, as much as I'd love to keep talking about Jodi Arias getting pregnant behind bars, can I ask you, who are these people that publicized, quote, we are Team Jodi and we will, with will underlined, we will be victorious. Who are these people? These are, this is the craziest thing. These people have been supporting Jodi since the beginning. They are random. I mean, for lack of better words,

they're random internet trolls. But you know, in the beginning, when Jodi was going through the trial, they were raising money for her. They kind of figured out that you can't give money to a criminal and she can't profit off things, but they've raised money, quote unquote, for her defense. And it's up to like almost, I think a hundred thousand dollars. It has really dwindled lately though. There were, I think there were only $800 in donations made in 2019, but these are people from all over the world that believe that Jodi is innocent. They believe that what she did was in self-defense because Travis Alexander was a pedophile. And he...

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Kirk Nermy, please help me because now my chest is hurting. Thanks, Alexis, for the chest pain. Kirk Nermy with me. Arius's former lawyer, author of Trapped with Miss Arius on Amazon. Kirk, when Alexis Tereschuk,

Alexis, I'm afraid you just sold your soul to the devil by putting the name Travis Alexander in the same sentence with pedophile. Kirk, was there ever evidence that substantial evidence that Travis Alexander had ever been a pedophile? I mean, I know that I think some of his underwear had a superhero. I can't remember how it went now, but I thought that was really unfounded. Oh, look, it goes back to what I said before. Look, you know, testimony is evidence. And a client, even irregardless of their attorney's advice, can go out and tell the story they want to tell unless that attorney can prove it wrong. So as ill as advised as it might be, Ms. Arias was able to present that argument despite the lack of actual evidence in favor of that or in making that connection.

Well, as a matter of fact, take a listen to this. Travis was not a pedophile. That was just a story that she was told to come up with that would help her in her defense for the murder of Travis. Her father never molested her, laid a hand on her sexually in any way. That was also just a story that she came up with that would hopefully help her in her defense for murder. Her father never molested her, laid a hand on her sexually in any way. That was also just a story that she came up with that would hopefully help answer for murder and get her off of the charges. Jodi never thought that she ever would have been charged with these charges because of those allegations. That's from RaiderOnline.com.

Speaking with Donovan Baring. You know, to you, Kirk Nermey, I want to follow up. And I don't even like talking about the fact that Travis Alexander was never a pedophile at all, ever. That was a story fabricated by Arias to try to help her defense, to get the focus off her and on him, the innocent victim. That's right. And that's far from the truth. As a matter of fact, we did everything. I did everything I could to not have her advance that story. There is no evidence behind it. But Miss Arias, and we've talked a little bit about her being a sociopath and putting things forward. She has her way. She has her ideas. And that's what she's going to follow, regardless of the

costs on humanity. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. When was the last time you saw Travis? Was it three days ago? Um, yeah. Do you guys, when was the last time you saw Zach? I mean, Travis, they want to know. Last time I saw Travis was it three days ago? Um, that, uh, you guys, when was the last time you saw Zach? Like, I mean Travis, they want to know if that's the time they saw him. Last time I saw him was, what, last Thursday or Friday? The last time I've ever seen him was last Thursday.

Okay. Um, Mimi saw him last Tuesday, or last Monday. She talked to him last Monday. Okay. And everyone is out of the house? There's no one else in the house? No, no one's in the house. And what is your name? My name is Michelle. I need to ask a friend something here. I'm giving the phone to me. Okay. Hi. Hi. Okay. And this is, okay, the tub is in his bedroom?

Yeah. You were hearing part of the 911 call made by Travis Alexander's friends when they had not seen or heard from him in days. I want you to hear the rest of that conversation. Listen. I didn't go in, but from what I heard, his roommate went in, there's blood in his bedroom behind the door, and then he said it's all over, and then they went in the bathroom and he's in his bedroom behind the door uh and probably and then he said it's all over and then they went in the bathroom and he's in his shower so and his his um his bedroom is where in the house it's upstairs um and if you go up the stairs it's on the left it's the first door on your left. It's the only door on your left. Okay. And it's just a big master suite bedroom up there.

And he's talking to his friend right now. There's a girl that's been stalking him and he's trying to write some information. I hope my phone doesn't die. I'm on like one bar of battery. Okay. Well, I'm just going to keep you on the phone until officers arrive, either officers or paramedics arrive, okay? Okay.

I think I can hear the siren now. Travis Alexander, brutally murdered. So many stab wounds, they really couldn't be counted. Somewhere between 27 and 29 stab wounds. And then shot in the head, his body left to decay, naked, in his shower stall. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. now. We are awaiting the outcome of a Jodi Arias appeal in Arizona. prison visits with her boyfriend, the convicted killer, spending holidays and weekends with her old lover. And he travels to come and see her. Alexis, how far does he travel to get to Arias on weekends? I believe he lives about four hours away, but it is a four-hour drive each way for

him. So he spends, he must spend the night near the prison, but it is a very, because he's there two days in a row. He never just comes for one day. He's there. And you know who else he was just joined with? Jodi has random visitors. She has these supporters that have been her friends for all these years, but her family had not visited her in a very long time. I've been, I check on this. I report on this every quarter really. And nobody from her family visited her all of a sudden her mom and her sister and her brother visited her and the boyfriend was there at the same time who knows they maybe had a wedding behind bars alexis teres chuck right now the appeal is pending tell me about the appeal and the status of the appeal so jody has filed jody has some are you back on a first name basis with jody areas

you're calling her by jody this and jody that what do you think she's going to invite you over for dinner when she gets out or invite me to the prison because she had some fancy roast beef for christmas dinner maybe she'll invite you to the wedding but go ahead please i want to hear about the roast beef too but go ahead she has new attorneys they filed an appeal for her what they are claiming is not that she didn't kill travis alexander but that the prosecutor acted so poorly during the trial and that because of that it created a media circus and the media circus unfairly influenced the trial and they they did not mention you by name but they did talk they were talking about you okay wait a minute i didn't know i was dragged into this what do i have to do with it

it is all your fault you were the one that you were there every single day making everybody in this whole entire country care about this case talking about it non-stop don't remember jodi areas one gave you the finger and then also slit, made the slit across her throat. Wait, wait, wait, wait. I remember her shooting a bird at me. If she slit her throat at me, I must have blocked it. Okay, maybe it scared me. Alexis, what?

I don't remember that part. Yeah, that happened. She made a motion like a cutting across her throat motion with her finger. Oh, right, right, right. Now, you know, Kirk Nermy, if only that could have been brought in as a similar transaction. Okay. Kirk Nermy with me. Arias, former defense attorney.

Trapped with Miss Arias is his new book. You can find it on Amazon. Kirk Nermy, did you know your client gave me the finger during the trial? You know what? I'm sorry, Nancy. I had my focus on other things. But I bet you did. Let me tell you.

I mean, but what do you make of the lover visiting, driving? OK, I just got to ask you, Kirk, did she ever come on to you? Don't lie to me. I know you're, you know, happily in your relationship and all that, but did she ever come on to you? Don't lie to me, Kirk. I'm not going to lie to you. No, because you know what? She has an innate ability.

Yes, she did. Now, hang on a minute. She has an innate ability to test the waters. She knows which she immediately senses which men are subject to manipulation and which aren't. So she focuses on those that will drive four hours and spend the entire day in prison with her and doesn't pay mind to those she knows who won't fall for that crap. I think you're trying to tell me she didn't. But, you know, to Bobby Chacon joining me, former special agent, FBI, current star of FB series, Curse of Akakor. Bobby, come on.

You know the deal. When you don't know a horse, look at her track record. That's how Arias operates. If she's got a man, she will turn him. Come hell or high water, Bobby. Yeah, I mean, that's one thing you do look at. I mean, obviously, you can't bring it into a trial, but it's something that's germane to an investigation when we're looking at someone's background, whether they're capable of doing something like this or not. You look into their

background, you look into their previous relationships. Do they have a pattern of behavior that could have carried forth into the current situation that we're investigating? So, sure, all of that. And when you find somebody like this, usually when they're this level of crazy, they've had past relationships that have either been on this level or leading to this level. And so those types that you find ex-boyfriends or ex-girlfriends who are no longer in the picture, but have said, I ran away from that person as fast as I could when this stuff started happening. So these patterns of people that are this obsessive, they're very hard to hide. And so oftentimes, they're very obvious in the backgrounds, and then they lead you and they can lead you to things in the current situation. That's why they're relevant to an investigation. Jodi Arias can certainly point the finger. Listen. Three years into serving that life sentence, Arias is appealing to have the conviction overturned, alleging, among other things, prosecutorial misconduct and that the

court's failure to control news coverage created a circus-like atmosphere, which deprived her of the right to a fair trial. The appeal also alleges that certain TV personalities like Nancy Grace gave the trial a reality TV flavor. Grace reacting to that accusation on her SiriusXM podcast, Crime Stories, on Friday. How can you get away from the fact that her own admission and her camera convicted her, not me or anybody else. And just days after her conviction, a defiant Arias speaking to ABC News. So you really are never going to tell the truth about what went down in that bathroom? I don't know what you mean by that because I've told the truth. Okay. I didn't know that you were a hater when you came to interview me. Mm-mm-mm. You're hearing from our friend Paula Ferris at ABC.

It's everybody but Arias. But warning again, it ain't over yet. Stay tuned tomorrow for more of our conversation about Jodi Arias and the death of Travis Alexander. Tomorrow on Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. This is an iHeart Podcast. Tomorrow on Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.