Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BONE-CHILLING BRYAN KOHBERGER DETAILS EMERGE/ Best of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Episode Date: July 4, 2024

A new book claims Bryan Kohberger is not a random spree killer, but rather, he had one target in mind the night he allegedly killed four college students in their home off-campus in Moscow, Idaho. Author Howard Blum claims investigators believe in a non-targeted attack, the killer would have stopped at the first door inside the house, and it would have been instinctive to go into the first rooms after gaining entry, but that isn't what happened. Investigators point to the two surviving roommates, Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funke, as proof that Kohberger is after a specific target.  Listen as Nancy Grace and her panel discuss the points Howard Blum uncovers during his own investigation of the evidence submitted to a grand jury.  Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Howard Blum - Author: "When The Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for The Idaho Student Murders;" Instagram: howard_blum_author /X: howardblum    Brian C. Stewart - Trial Attorney and Managing Partner at Parker & McConkie,  https://www.parkerandmcconkie.com    Dr. Angela Arnold – Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA. Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital Chris McDonough  – Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective; Host of YouTube channel: “The Interview Room” Joseph Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” Twitter/X: @JoScottForensic See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Bone-chilling Brian Koberger details emerge. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Bombshell, a new tell-all book reveals a bone-chilling theory on Idaho murder suspect Brian Koberger. Author Howard Bloom joins Crime Stories for an exclusive interview. Howard Bloom is joining us right now from Manhattan along with an all-star panel to dissect what we know and what we are learning from Howard Bloom. You know, I have poured over every document, every search warrant, every return, every witness statement that I could get my mitts on.

I have flown to Idaho, to Moscow, Idaho in the midst of winter and trudged through the snow to look at the scene as best as I could to drive the route I believe oh yeah good times freezing then got in a SUV at night in the pitch dark at the time I believe Brian Koberger left that crime scene and started his circuitous route although an hour's drive to his apartment at nearby Washington State University in Pullman, which should have been about an eight minute drive. And somewhere along the way, he turns his cell phone back on. That said, after all that, I still learned so much from reading Howard Bloom's book. The name, When the Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for the Idaho

Student Murders. Wow. Even the title made me stop. And in the midst of everything we all do in regular life, you know, working, your children, your cat, your dog, your mom. I managed to finish this book in one day. I practically could not put it down. I had it in two forms. I printed out what I had and had it on my iPad so I could look at it no matter where I was. Howard Bloom, it's amazing. You had me sitting in the Costco parking lot in the heat, reading your book, trying to get to the next chapter before I came back home. Well, I appreciate that. That's very kind. You sit in the room as an author and you wonder if anyone will read what you write and then to hear someone talk about it so graciously. I'm very flattered. So thank you. Well, I've never

been accused of being kind before. So I will take that with a box of salt. I want to get right to it. There's so much in your book. I had to take copious notes. So I'll just start at the beginning. It was an amazing intro. And I was struck by the fact that you start your book from Koberger's father's point of view. And what I learned about his father really touched my heart, how he never got to go to college and he was so proud of Brian Koberger and was already referring to him

as Dr. Koberger amongst his coworkers. And it reminded me so much, Howard, of my father, how he didn't get, we're first generation college. And when I got through law school, in his mind, it was the most amazing thing ever. So proud, right? Now, here's my question with that lead up. Almost at the beginning, his father and his family, Kohlberger's family, suspected him of being the killer. I found that just, I was dumbstruck. Because, you know, when I read about a crime, I don't immediately think, oh, my son did that. In fact, I've never thought that. Tell me your thinking and why you say that. Michael Kohlberger makes this trip out to see his son to make the ride back with him. You know, this is a 28-year-old man, and his father is worried about him. He's making this trip.

It's fatiguing. It's expensive. But he's worried about his son. He's sitting next to him in this car, shoulder to shoulder. He knows the police are looking for a white Hyundai. And one of the first things he realizes when he meets his son is that his son's mood is volatile. That's his first sign that Brian is in a state. He goes out to meet his son in Washington state and he doesn't know which

Brian he's going to encounter. But that's his first sign. And he begins to see as his mood, the mood change and become deeper and more acerbic. He begins to wonder, oh my gosh. He begins to think the unthinkable. He begins to consider that his son could in fact be a murderer. And all this is building, building in his mind, and he's afraid to go there, as any father would. But he's getting these clues as if he were following footsteps in the snow, and the footsteps are becoming bloodier and bloodier. And he now realizes, could this really be true? And then all of a sudden they're driving along in Indiana and they see police sirens in the back and the car has to pull over. And he begins to feel what is going to happen next.

Wow. Guys, with me, Howard Bloom, who has literally written the book, the name of the book, When the Night Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho student murders. And I have learned so much more than we, the public have learned more than my sources have told me by exhaustive research by Howard Bloom. You're looking right at him. You stated that, these are your words, that you discovered this from what Koeberger's father stated to other people. What did he state about immediately suspecting his son was the killer? He went out to Idaho, Washington State at the beginning with suspicions. You have to remember that Michael, this is not his first trip out there. He even took his son out on the first trip in August when his son was just registering for school. He had real concerns about his son. His son was a former heroin addict.

His son had psychological problems. At the same time, he wanted to believe, against all hope, that his son was changing, that his son had reinvented himself. He had been a mediocre student, and now he was in an excellent graduate program for criminology. And Michael wanted to believe that his son was going to get a PhD. He was going be my Dr. Brian Koberger. And yet at the same time, in the back of his mind, he was thinking the unthinkable. And then things just fall into place. There was a shooting at blocks, just blocks from where Brian lived as they were making this trip across country, a man, a former veteran, went berserk and took hostages in a student housing, and a SWAT team had to come in, and they killed him. And Michael Kohlberger, as he told people who spoke with me, began to feel that there was something just

wrong in this part of the world. There were evil forces. That's how he put it at work. And his son was caught up in it. You know what? I've read a lot and investigated a lot about the family dynamics of Brian Koberger. Listen. Brian Koberger's family members are concerned about Brian's behavior prior to his arrest. Author Howard Bloom says one of Koberger's sisters confronts their father about the possibility that Brian Koberger is involved in the Moscow murders. But Michael Koberger's sisters confronts their father about the possibility that Brian Koberger is involved in the Moscow murders. But Michael Koberger apparently brushes off their concerns. Bloom says Michael Koberger is on edge when he picks up his son to drive back from Washington to Pennsylvania, claiming the senior Koberger has seen the headlines.

He knows four students are killed 12 miles from his son's house. And according to Bloom, Michael Koberger knows what a troubled son he has. Wow. You know, joining me, an all-star panel, in addition to this incredible author, Howard Bloom. Howard, I noticed that one of the points of contention was about the route. And when I was driving that route from the King Road murder scene back to his apartment in Pullman. I was wondering why he did that, why he drove an hour in the middle of the night. And I'm sure, you know, there's no street lights. It's in pitch black. And he only ran off the road a couple of times when a semi would come by, but he basically did the same thing with his dad. The dad flies out, does a quick turnaround. He's exhausted. He gets in the

Elantra with his son and the son refuses to go the direct and much shorter route. Do you think that had anything to do with Koberger believing he was being followed or monitored? I think Koberger being a criminology student was trying to take precautions. At this point, I don't think he had any belief or any knowledge that he was being followed. However, he was trying to be circumspect. He was trying to be one step smarter than the authorities. Again, in addition to Howard Bloom, now preeminent author, an all-star panel. And I want to go out to Chris McDonough

joining us, the director of the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective, host of The Interview Room on YouTube, who, like me, like Howard, has seen the evidence, has walked the scene, very familiar with the area.

Chris McDonough, you've had a lot of homicide cases. And very often, family members know their son is a killer, but they will never admit it. And I'm thinking about Koeberger's dad, who knew he had suspicions at the beginning his son was a quadruple killer. Yeah. And Nancy, I think what happens is right, that parental, you know, tendency kicks in in relationship to they want to believe it, but they don't necessarily want to believe it. And so it's kind of a, you know, a tug and pull from a parental physician. However, in this particular case, it's obvious dad had his radar was way up and had taken that trip to go out and pick up his son. Well, you know, think about it, Chris. And let me throw this to Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist joining us, AngelaArnoldMD.com. Have you ever seen parents

that tiptoe around their child all the time that they're just waiting for an explosion. And when I was reading the first chapter in Howard's book, When the Night Comes Falling, you could feel the tension of the father in the car with Koberger on this long drive, just waiting for an explosion. But we got to keep in mind the dad, Michael Koberger, had spent his whole life trying to prop up, support, help Brian Koberger. So he knew it was like walking through a minefield. Anything can make him explode. And when Koberger insisted on this circuitous route, which took hours and hours longer than a direct route, he went, okay, fine. You're the boss. Those are the words the father used to Koeberger.

Well, sure. Because Nancy, the last thing he was going to do was confront this guy because I have to wonder if the father, if the father knew all of this, was the father a little bit terrified of what could set Brian off and possibly was the father's life in danger at this point because apparently Brian was ag danger at this point because apparently Brian was agitated at this time. I wonder if the circuitous route had anything to do with some sort of OCD kind of disorder that this guy has. Howard Bloom, you also described Brian Koberger, his heroin habit, how he got into heroin. And when he managed to kick heroin after his father

turned him in for stealing the sister's phone and he had to go into some sort of a rehab, a treatment to get his life straight, he kicked heroin and decided his body was a temple. And that is when he became a vegetarian. And I had wondered where that started because now he's demanding certain types of meals behind bars and he's getting them and I remember an anecdote where the family couldn't cook with certain pots and pans because they had once cooked meat. I'm working up to it. You reveal that Koberger had two types of plastic surgery after he loses 100 pounds. What were they? Brian Kohlberger is intent, and this is the admirable part of him, he's trying to reinvent himself.

He comes out of this depressing hardscrabble existence, a family with two bankruptcies. He's going to a hardscrabble high school. His father is a janitor at the high school. He's sort of embarrassed by that. He becomes a heroin addict. And yet, to his credit, he works himself out of this. He then wants to, he's trying to approach girls at high school. They're ignoring him. He loses the weight and he still has this sort of flesh that's going over his midsection. And it's just not the sort of guy he wants to be. He wants to be a player. He wants to be one of the cool guys. And he thinks, so he has this surgery. These two surgeries are covered by insurance. And he reinvents himself.

He's in good shape, as you can see in the photographs. He works out. He does martial arts. And he still tries to become the man he wants to be. The plastic surgeries. He has these two plastic surgeries to get over his midsection so there's not this sort of envelope. Howard, you're so polite.

Okay, you outline it in your book. He had two surgeries, one of them being an abdominoplasty and the other, you know what? They're long. Let me rephrase this. You described two plastic surgeries that Brian Koberger has. Both of them, I believe, were were a were related to removing flaps of skin left over from the 100 plus pound weight loss, a flap of skin and tissue that went down over his private parts and his lower stomach. He wanted to get rid of that. And when he did get rid of that through plastic surgery. He had a serious buff body is the way I take it from your book. Is that what happened? That's exactly what happened. He had this vision that he would become a new Brian Koberger. And the tragedy is he almost succeeded. He gets out to Washington State, a new man, and he's trying to live a new life and yet he's pulled back in

to what he always is to his essence I believe. Brian Koberger allegedly enters the home and walks past the first rooms he sees coming into the Moscow Idaho house and goes straight up a narrow staircase and turns directly into the room of his target Madison Mogan. Author Howard Bloom says investigators believe Maddie Mogan is the target, and her best friend Kayla Gans-Ovis is killed because she's in the room with Mogan. Did Brian Koberger's parents suspect their son? An explosive new book suggests family knew more than they ever let on about their troubled son. Author Howard Bloom tells us more.

Guys, joining me is the author Howard Bloom, author of When the Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders. Howard Bloom has gone where many have not, tediously investigating everything about this case and the book is full of revelations. We were just describing how Koberger's own family thought at the get go before he was ever named a suspect or even a P.O.I. person of interest that he committed the quadruple murders. So proud of his son getting his Ph.D., flies out to Washington to drive Koberger back home to the Poconos area for Thanksgiving. And he's sitting there for all these hours in this white Elantra, which, of course, he knows has been named in the case. And looking over at his son, who is acting more and more volatile.

But I want to move on to the next point. Listen. In a shocking revelation, author Howard Bloom claims Brian Koberger is not a random spree killer. He had one target in mind the night he allegedly killed four college students in their home off campus in Moscow, Idaho. Bloom says investigators believe in a non-targeted attack. The killer would have stopped at the first door inside the house. It would have been instinctive to go into the first rooms after gaining entry. But that isn't what happened. Investigators point to the two surviving roommates, Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk, as proof Koberger is after a specific target.

You know, you really back your theory up with a lot of facts and the way they're laid out. It makes perfect sense. But all along, it has been believed, it has been accepted that Kelly Gonsalves was the target, the original target, and the others were just collateral damage. But you say no. Why? Well, at this point, Kelly is not even really living in the house. She's living up north with her family. She's going to graduate at the end of the term in December.

And Brian really wouldn't have come in contact with her necessarily. But he did go to the Mad Greek restaurant in downtown Moscow. It's sort of vegan food, which he liked, which he would adhere to strictly. And Maddie was a waitress there. And my belief is that they encountered one another in the restaurant. Were any words said? Did they have a conversation? I don't think that was necessary.

You know, both the prosecution and the defense have said for the record that there was no interaction between Brian Koberger and any of the victims. He did not follow any of them on social media. He, to their knowledge, never had any real conversations with them. sort of determined by obsessions, such as being addicted to heroin, such as losing 100 pounds, such as deciding to become the best student after being a mediocre student. And I think once he saw Maddie for whatever reasons, I mean, she's an attractive, blonde woman, charming, vivacious, ebullient, he becomes interested in her. And I think his fixation, he would see the parties, he would be in, I believe, on the periphery of events as parties were hosted at this house on King Road, a party house, and he would look at that and he felt it was

in some ways a constant rebuke to the life that he was leading and the life he wanted to live. He could never be a part of that. And he decided in his rage and his mania, I believe, to do something about it. And when he entered the house that night and he goes in through the kitchen, he passes two bedrooms, the bedroom where Zaina is with Ethan and also the bedroom where Dylan is. He doesn't stop. He goes up a flight, which isn't your natural inclination, into Maddie's room. And he finds her, but he's surprised to see that Kaylee is there. He had no idea that as he's sleeping over that she's staying for the weekend.

She had come to town to show up her new car she'd just gotten a used range rover and she was very proud of it and excited by it and she wanted to share that with her friends and he discovers maddie uh and then kills her kaylee fights back climbs out of the bed is pressed against the wall wall, and he kills her. And Haley is collateral damage. When he goes downstairs, the two other victims are collateral damage, too. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me is a now famous professor of forensics, Joe Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a hit series, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. But for my purposes and most importantly, he is a, quote, death investigator who has investigated over 1,000 deaths.

Jessica Morgan, you and I have gone over the evidence, both on air and off, trying to determine who was the target. First of all, it doesn't matter who was the target because they were all for murdered. But the reason we were looking for this needle in a haystack is to determine if if we knew the target, we could better figure out who was the perpetrator. Right. So you're hearing what Howard Bloom outlines in his chapter 15. And I think this may be dispositive from your point of view, the attacks on Gonsalves versus Maddie Mogan. They are very revealing. Explain. They're very revealing because of the level of violence, I think, that's involved here. You've got these two victims that are contained in that bedroom up there. And I got to tell you, based upon what Howard is saying,

the idea that this individual, Koberger, allegedly knew where to go in this house, because as you well know, you stood outside that house, Nancy. It's a very confusing layout. You would have to have specific knowledge of where her room would be at that particular time. Now, the fact that there was another occupant in there, maybe that's the case. And he was surprised by that. But it goes to this idea of I would like to try to understand if he had scoped this place out for a particular period of time. Also, this kind of dovetails with what Howard had said as well, that he saw parties going on and that this is kind of a projection. He understands the life in there.

There was a real chilling video that came up, I don't know, about a year ago. I don't know if you guys recall this, of them, the occupants of that house, actually giving internal views of that in a TikTok video. It made my skin crawl as a dad and as a college professor, because the individual that's seeing this can see the layout inside of that structure, which I think that we can all agree is kind of peculiar, to say the very least. Okay, you can't have it both ways, Joe Scott Morgan. Or you, Howard Bloom, do I dare to call you on the carpet after you've literally written the book? We can't have, he's full of rage and goes after these girls because he can't have them. He can't have the party life, the popularity, the thing he's been seeking since he lost that

hundred pounds and had those two plastic surgeries. It's not happening for him. You can't have the rage. Plus, I really like the way you laid this out. I'm trying to. Ah, here we go. Near the beginning of your book, you talk about Brian Koberger delving into, quote, the criminal mind and will be a, quote, scientist exploring why criminals do what they do. It's been kicked around that his motive, not that the state needs to prove a motive they don't, but juries like to hear it. So practically speaking, you better hand one over on a silver platter on top of the Christmas tree. You can't have him full of rage and methodically trying to carry out the perfect murder and get away with it very calmly and methodically. So which one is it? What about it, Bloom? He was filled with mania, which is not the same thing as rage. And you're trying to understand, make a rational explanation for completely irrational acts. What Brian Koberger tried to do that night is to commit,

I believe, the perfect crime. I believe he wanted to get Maddie, he wanted to kill her, and then once he gets into the house, once he finds another girl there, all his plans fall apart. That's why he leaves the knife sheath behind. He did think things out, and as the police well know there wasn't any blood a trail of blood left by the perpetrator in the house all they had was the touch DNA on the knife she there was no trail of blood going up the hill or where his where a car was parked he to this day they have not found the murder weapon to this day they have not found the murder weapon. To this day, they have not found any clothes covered with blood from that house. And the house was filled with blood. We've all

seen the pictures of the rivulets of blood leaking out from the foundation of the house. So he did have some planning. He knew enough, he thought, to turn off his phone from 247 to 448 for those two hours when the murders were taking place and he was getting. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, Howard Bloom, you're the fire hydrant. You're giving me the information faster than I can take it in. I can't drink from a fire hydrant. You've got to give it to me teaspoon by teaspoon. And I'm telling you, this book, amazing. But Brian C. Stewart joining me, high profile lawyer joining us who practices in this jurisdiction as well as in Utah. Brian, I hear what Howard is saying. I hear what Joe Scott Morgan is

saying. And I've got to agree. I empathize. I get both the theories. The reality is the state never has to prove a motive, but jurors want to hear a motive. So do you believe that when this case shows its trial, which it is, despite the defense dragging their feet and dragging the judge along with them, he's going along with it. Do you believe the state has to pick a theory as to motive? Because these two are not consistent. Or are they? Rage versus method. Well, motive can be an important part of the circumstantial evidence that leads a jury to understand why a perpetrator commits a crime. But as you said, it's not necessary to prove that they committed the crime. Here, where Brian Kohlberger seems like somebody who's studying criminal justice and perhaps sees himself as the smartest person in the room or a narcissist,

his motivation may be to commit the perfect crime. And he would know that choosing someone in another city who he doesn't have a relationship with would create a lot of distance between him and the potential victim. That's the first thing that police look for is relationships in a murder. And he might have chosen Maddie as someone who's young and blonde and beautiful and might get him a lot of notoriety as he evades justice. And so if that's his motivation, that could certainly be, you know, the reason why he chose somebody and doesn't have necessarily rage for Maddie,

but has rage for the system or mania, as Harold says, to beat the system. What happened the fateful night of the University of Idaho four murders? New theories revealed in a special episode with author Howard Bloom. And joining us, Howard Bloom has meticulously investigated so many facts of the case that we didn't know about, including Koberger's past, how he lost 100 pounds and had two different plastic surgeries to remove a flap of skin from his stomach that went down over his genitals. He didn't want that look.

He lost 100 pounds on his own, had two plastic surgeries to reinvent himself as a modern day Adonis. But according to his friends, what I'm reading and when the night comes falling, his friends didn't like how that transformation changed his personality. He became, I know it all, very aggressive. And that was born out at Washington State University. He treated his friends in high school that way after he got his new look. He became, in his mind, the it guy, but somehow he couldn't pull it off. What, if anything, did that have to do with the murders of four beautiful University of Idaho students? Okay, to this whole panel, including Howard Bloom joining us. I've got to have more than what Joe Scott Morgan is telling me that the attack on Kelly was much more savage than the attack

on Maddie Mogan. Why? All four of them were brutally stabbed dead. I need to know who is my target. And in this book, Bloom describes a blood trail. He also describes the blood literally leaking down the outside of the house, which I observed when I went to Idaho. But that's it. Let's talk about the blood evidence, Howard Bloom. What about the blood evidence convinces you as to who the real target was? Well, one point that you just made about the wounds on Kaylee being so severe, Kaylee fought back. She was not, she was originally in the bed with Maddie. She gets up from the bed. The room is very narrow. She tries to get towards the wall, but she's trapped by Koberger, and she's fighting back, and she is not dying easily. It's a very violent death, and he's enraged that he even has to, I believe, that he had to encounter her. He did not expect her. And to then find this woman fighting back like a tiger is putting him in his mania, is exacerbating the situation. He thought he would go in there and kill Maddie, who was her presence rebuked him. I think that's what was going on that night in that house. Nancy?

Yeah, jump in. So there's a couple of things, you know, from my thought process in this. One is, you know, that evening, Koberger, he's, I don't think he's manic depressive or in a manic state in any way, shape or form, my personal opinion. I think he's very organized. He selected his target set on purpose. And the reason I feel that way, there's a couple of things. One is both Madison and Kaylee, they're attached at the hip from elementary school. They go through,

they select the same college. They have the same kind of birthday parties together. They're in the exact same house. And that evening when Koberger pulls up, if he's our guy, he's got to see her car. He's got to know, based on the surveillance that he's been doing, that she potentially could be there as well. And so we have to now ask ourselves. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I disagree. I disagree because I don't know that Koberger knew about her new car, Range Rover. That was new. And well, I mean, it's a used vehicle. At this point, Kaylee is not really living in the house. She's living in Corgilline. She just comes in for that weekend. And he didn't know that. He didn't expect it.

And when he's circling the house, I believe he's not really doing that night three times. He comes and goes. I believe he's not doing surveillance. I believe he's trying to find the will inside himself to turn off the motor, to stop the car, to climb down the hill and commit this crime. Each time he circles the house, it's not to see what's going on. He doesn't even really notice the cars, but it's really an internal battle he's fighting. If he had seen the cars, if he'd even seen the door dash delivery, it was a door dash delivery at 4 a.m. He might have reconsidered it. He was locked in. Hold on. Howard Bloom, Howard Bloom, you were taking our program down a pig path. Now, I guess you joining us from Manhattan that you have never been down a pig path. But what a pig path is, is certainly not a direct line or goes in any organized manner.

It just goes all over the place. But you know what, Howard Bloom, that's the way an investigation is. When I would sit around a table talking with investigators and witnesses, other DAs, one topic leads to another topic leads to another topic. And it's hard to marshal your evidence, which you did a great job in your book doing. But guys, he brought up another thing. He brought up, Bloom brought up that Koberger circles the house three times. And yes, I'm going to get to that store clerk who in my mind helped crack this case, who you say wants to remain anonymous, and I don't blame her. Long story short, how did you confirm, Howard Bloom, that a white Elantra or car similar to a white Elantra circled the King Road address three times leading up to the quadruple murder? How did you confirm that? Well, part of it is in court documents and the public affidavits.

But I also spoke with the gas station attendant who gave the surveillance video to the police, too. So a lot of that is public record. What is not public record, clearly, is what was in the driver's mind at that time as he was circling. Something you have to remember, in all the surveillance videos, there's not one photograph of the license plate of the car. There's not one photograph of the driver. You can't see who it is holding the steering wheel. The FBI has tried everything to try to pull a picture from inside the car of who was driving that night, and they couldn't. So Kohlberger, I believe, was the man in that in that Hyundai Elantra. And he was trying to find the will to cross over into the man who was thinking about this horrific crime to becoming the sort of man who could commit it.

And it was a difficult, difficult journey he was taking internally that night. Families of the slain Idaho four victims await justice as a judge sets a date for trial. Yeah, and that judge, many argue, is kowtowing to the defense. When are these families going to get justice? That's a whole nother can of worms. With me, Howard Bloom, the author of an incredible new book, When the Night Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders. Okay, all hands on deck to analyze what Howard Bloom was telling us. Now, Howard Bloom, you crossed over into the gas station video, which is later when I believe Koberger's leaving the scene. I'm going to go back

to you stating in your book that you believe K-worker white Elantra circles the crime scene three times that we know of before the murders occur. Now, not the gas station video. You are telling me that's caught on video. Is it as you described at the end, near the end of chapter 20, a guy who owns a rental complex, I think three apartments, a rental complex nearby, and he's got a camera on top of the rental complex looking down. Did his video catch the Elantra circling three times before the murders? Yes. And in this video, too, they still can't make out a license plate. They still can't make out in the darkness the driver, but they are able to make out the car. When the FBI in Quantico was trying to figure out from these videos what kind of car it is, they tried three different times until they finally come up

with a Hyundai Elantra from 2011 to 2015. At first, they thought it was just 2011 to 2013. And that's one of the reasons why Brian Kohlberger takes so long to find him, because the authorities in Washington state were really looking for the wrong car. Hey, Joska Morgan, and everybody jump in. I'm going to circle back to you, Brian Stewart, about mens rea, about intent. Is it even needed? Do we need explicit intent or is it implicit by describing three times he circled that we know of. And it's caught, I believe, on the top of that rental facility. There's a camera up on the roof.

And I looked everywhere when I was out there, Joe Scott Morgan. I went very slowly and it was slippery and icy. And I fell more than once. I looked all the way up and down the street for surveillance videos. It's very narrow. I've told you this story. I could stand on one side of the street, look into the kitchen window across the street and tell you what kind of liquid soap they had sitting on their sink at the kitchen window. It's that close. I did not see the overhead surveillance camera on that rental. It's on the roof. It's incredible. Now, he was talking about the FBI tried everything

to enhance the tag in the driver. How? How? What do they do to enhance? They're washing this thing through various programs that they have, Nancy, in order to try to tighten down the image because I'm sure that it's very granulated. Particularly given the nighttime status of this where you're not going to be able to pick up without some kind of light enhancement like an infrared or something like this that will be able to give you finer detail. So it's going to be greatly compromised. And look, you know, you have to think about the house itself. This house is kind of shaded in darkness from the rear. You're not going to see a lot there. There's not a lot. It's not like being in a huge city where you've

got streetlights that are all over the place. It'll be illuminating this environment. So it's going to be a tough ask if you're thinking about attempting to get an image that's that's capturable so that they can do what they need to do in order to identify this individual. OK, Joe Scott, just please stop. You know what? I can see I can see a tiny little crater on the moon, but I can't get the tag number or the visage of Koberger's face. Why? Because these houses don't have the Hubble telescope on them. Nobody likes a smart aleck or a know-it-all, Joe Scott. Well, the cameras that you're talking about, they're not the highest of quality. I mean, look how many are turned out every single day. They're in shops all over the place. It doesn't mean that it's going to be a great quality. Did Brian Koberger's parents suspect their son? An explosive new book suggests family knew more

than they ever let on about their troubled son. Howard Bloom, his book is so chock full of evidence and facts supporting what many of us have been thinking and pondering and so much more. When the night comes falling, my Howard Bloom. Howard, we were just talking to Joe Scott Morgan about why the FBI could not enhance that video better than it did. I get it. But I heard you saying something in the background. What was that? Well, not only couldn't they enhance the video, the FBI has this program that they developed really for anti-terrorism activities. And they tried three different times to analyze the car, and they got three different years. Originally, they had the car was not a Hyundai Elantra, they made it a Nissan Sentra.

And then finally, there was a 2011, and then a 2013, and then they finally at the end said 2011 to 2015. I can assure you the FBI's fumbling will come up in court. I'm sure the defense will raise this and try to impugn the identification of the car. Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. The FBI fumbling? I don't see them fumbling here. What do you mean by that? Well, fumbling in the sense that their technology was just not up to snuff, and they gave declarations.

The first original be-on-the-lookout notice was not for a 2015 Hyundai Elantra. It was for a 2011 Hyundai Elantra. Hold on, Howard Bloom. You mentioned a detail, and I'm not sure if you thought I was just going to ignore it or didn't catch it. But you said the FBI was trying to enhance. They tried it three times, I believe you said. to the type of video surveillance that was ultimately introduced in the Kyle Rittenhouse case where we had satellite surveillance from nearly 9,000 feet in the air to figure out what really happened. And there was video. Did the FBI go to the extent of grabbing sat video? This was much more rudimentary. What they had was a surveillance photograph and they tried to enhance it. These were grainy photographs and they thought they run them through this machine, this process, this computer program that was developed at vast expense by the Department of Defense

and Homeland Security originally for terrorism activities, and they thought they could get the identity of the car. And then they passed it out in their original be on the lookout at the Moscow police sent nationwide for a 2011 to 2013 Hyundai Elantra. That was a mistake. That wasn't the year of the car they ultimately decided was Kober. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. New and very disturbing details emerging surrounding the Brian Koberger quadruple murder case. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. What happened the fateful night of the University of Idaho four murders? New theories revealed in a special episode with author Howard Bloom.

Thank you for being with us. With us, author Howard Bloom has just come out with an incredible book, full, chock full of not only theories, but facts supporting the theory, supporting the hypothesis of the prosecution that Brian Koberg, in fact, murdered four young University of Idaho students. Howard Bloom, you describe in depth what happens with the two surviving roommates, Dylan and Bethany. Listen. In the early morning hours between 4 a.m. and 4.30 a.m., Dylan Mortensen says she calls out to her friends who she thinks are being too loud. After hearing more loud noises, Mortensen again tells her roommates to calm down. She's trying to sleep. She turns and locks their door. Hearing loud noises noises, Mortensen again tells her roommates to calm down. She's trying to sleep. She turns and locks their door.

Hearing loud noises again, Mortensen opens the door and sees Brian Koberger, allegedly, and believing him to be a partygoer who is leaving, says nothing, shuts and locks her door again. The girl that lived. According to prosecutors, Brian Koberger went into the home on King Road with a mission to commit the perfect murder. Could he actually commit mass murder and not leave a trace behind? And what about the two that live, Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk? Listen. Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk are both home Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk are both home while their friends are murdered upstairs and are left unharmed.

Sources tell ABC News and author Howard Bloom that Mortensen and Funk were using their cell phones to communicate before, during, and after the murders. Many have wondered, since Mortensen and Funk were both in the home and on their cell phones when the murders were taking place, why is there an eight-hour delay before police are called in? Martinson and Funk were both in the home and on their cell phones when the murders were taking place. Why is there an eight hour delay before police are called? And why were other friends called before police?

Howard Bloom joining us with an all star panel. And guys, remember, we're not having high tea at Windsor Castle. Jump in with your own theories and questions. The state could use them. Howard Bloom, I'm curious as well, and you devote a lot of time to this in your book when the night comes falling about the delay on Dylan Mortensen's part. She actually sees the killer leaving the home. There is a serious delay, and during that time, a lot of evidence could and most likely was lost. Question to you. You described the police grappling with that seven to eight hour delay.

Describe that. The police are dumbfounded. They can't understand how this girl could see a killer in the house and do nothing about it. Her behavior is irrational. And I think, though, ultimately, the police and I have concluded that a rational explanation is impossible. I think she was locked in a state of terror. I also believe Koberger, as he descended and passed her on his way out of the house, was locked in his own state of mania. He was surrounded by his own armory of hate, if you will. If Dillon had spoken out, if she had tried to penetrate

the moment that he was locked in, I think she would have died. I think she would have become another victim. Her terror, her silence saved her life. You know, I haven't really thought about it in the way that you just stated it, which is chilling. Joe Scott Morgan joining me, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a hit series, Body Bags podcast. Joe Scott, we've gone round and round about Dylan Mortensen more so than Bethany because Bethany, while there, did not see the perpetrator leaving. That's why more focus has been on Dylan Mortensen. What do you make of what Howard Bloom just said? I agree with him.

If she had uttered a sound, she would be dead right now. I agree. Here's my perspective. I think that there's an element to this where Koberger, if he did in fact commit these crimes, was in such an exhausted state. He has tunnel vision at this point in time. He's trying to clear himself of the scene. Think about all of the energy that he has expended at this point in time, starting on that top floor where there's just a slaughter that has taken place allegedly at his own hands, and then to be surprised by the other two residents on this floor with Zaina and Ethan, he has to encounter them and make his way past them.

I don't know that people and I hope people never do understand the amount of energy that would go in to try to commit this kind of heinous crime. And so he's locked in. I think that probably if she had, in fact, spoken, she would have just become an obstacle to him that he's trying to defeat to make his way to that door so he can get out and get in that car and leave. Much the way, according to Howard Bloom, Keely Gonsalves became, let me just say, an impediment because of the ferocity of the attack on Kelly Gonsalves. And her father said that he believed Kelly was the target. Now, Bloom is saying Maddie was the target and Kelly was in the way. So that supports what you're saying.

But I want to follow up with Dr. Angela Arnold. I want you to hear this Howard Bloom and Brian Stewart. You often have to go to state of mind as a trial lawyer. Dr. Angela Arnold is with us renowned psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find her at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Dr. Angie, let's analyze what we've just heard. How or could I use that at trial to explain to this jury why Dylan Mortensen did nothing? Now I have defended Dylan Mortensen from the get-go. Dylan Mortensen is a crime victim. Let's not forget that before everybody heaps on what she did wrong. Okay. She did nothing wrong.

She had been out like many, many thousands of vandals. That's the college mascot drinking and having a good time. There was a football game that weekend. She comes home. It's really late at night around 4am. She's been partying. She hears a noise. She hears the dog.

She hears her roommate saying something and she gets up. In that state of mind, how does she know who he was? That he was a killer? How does she know he wasn't just someone visiting and leaving? People were ordering food. People were going to sleep. They've been partying all night long. It's four in the morning. Is that why she didn't call 911? Now the crux, the rub is going to be what's in the cell phone communications between Bethany and Dylan. But can you think of, as a psychiatrist, a rational explanation as to why Dylan did not call 911?

Yes, I can, Nancy, because these are, let's just remember, these are kids that are in college. They're partying. It's close to the end of the semester. Would anyone in their right mind think, oh, my God, there's a killer in the house, and my friends have been killed? I am sure that didn't even enter their minds. There was noise. Apparently, there was always a lot of coming and going from this house because they're just kids in college having a good time right that was the that was the culture there so she did nothing wrong i have a feeling that with all of the communication back back and forth and everything she had no idea who he was he

wasn't he she didn't recognize him he was just somebody walking through the house and she was probably a little bit scared because of the noise that she had heard. She was a little bit in shock. I don't know. I don't know about her being scared because if she was scared, she would have called 911. I think she was a little bit drunk. And maybe she was Nancy.

And so if she was, it's not like she was out driving and drinking she was in her home hey hey hey hey hey slow down sleeping it off slow down Nellie you're preaching to the choir right now I'm on Dylan's side on this back to Howard Bloom yes I can explain away why she didn't call 911. But what do we know about her communications with Bethany during that time? The other roommate, does it prove she did know an attack was occurring or does it prove the contrary? You are raising one of the great mysteries of this case. All I have been able to find out is that testimony about those texts were given to the grand jury. The grand jury heard about it. The grand jury reviewed some of those texts. What they said, I'd be dishonest if I said I knew. My feeling is, though, that Dylan and Bethany are both victims. Their lives are changed forever by these events. And, you know, we keep on looking for a rational explanation for Dylan's behavior. It wasn't a rational night.

I think I know something. I think I can do something, Howard Bloom. And I may be proven very wrong come trial time. But let me go to a trial strategist on this. Brian C. Stewart, veteran trial lawyer who is joining us from this jurisdiction in Idaho. He practices there in Utah. Brian, you've tried a lot of cases, and if you want to win a case, you marshal your evidence. You have a plan what you're going. I recall, uh, when I would write out, yes, I would write out every question

verbatim for every witness. Of course, you know, you have a plan when you go into a fight, but when you get a punch in the nose, the plan goes to hay, right? So you have a plan. Let's think about these communications, the communications between Dylan and Bethany. We know they were communicating by phone. Thanks to Howard Bloom, we now know those were not phone calls. They were texts. Those texts were given to the grand jury who indicted Koberger. Think this through. I have a strong suspicion, a deduction that those texts were about, what is the noise? Did you hear the dog? What's going on? Are they still awake? Blah, blah, blah. Because Brian C. Stewart, if those texts were about, oh, my star, somebody's in the house. Did you hear a scream? I thought I heard a fight and text to that genre.

I believe those texts would have been used as establishing a timeline. We would have heard about the nature of those texts if they were probative. In other words, if they proved anything. I think that's right. We would have heard more about them. They would have given us more information about what the girls experienced during that period. But to me, the fact that they were locked inside their rooms and sending texts rather than talking or going to find each other tells me that they were still in fear and didn't believe they were safe. Brian, I don't know if you know that my 92 year old mother lives with us and my husband just gave me the greatest gift ever. I don't like jewelry, fancy cars or clothes. Don't even say fur.

He gave me a granny cam. I love it. I can see what granny is doing at night. Has she fallen on the floor? Is she wandering around aimlessly? Do I need to go get out of bed at 3 a.m. and go check on her like I did the first eight years she lived with us. How easy is it to text? Why do you want to get up when you're wearing nothing but a t-shirt, go out in the hall, knock on your roommate's door and go, Hey, wake up. I've got a question.

What's going on up there? Technical term. I don't know if you've got it in Idaho and Utah. BS. Of course they're texting. I text back and forth with the twins. We're in there. They're in the back of the house, right? That's not, I don't find that disturbing at all, at all, Brian. I don't either. But if they had heard some struggle, if they had heard any screaming, it would make entire sense to me that they would lay low and be paralyzed by, by fear during those hours. Okay. Chris McDonough joining me, director of Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective, star of the interview room on YouTube, where I found him. Chris McDonough, haven't we both agreed

that these two roommates, Dylan and Bethany, they were the low man on the totem pole in that they got the bottom bedrooms. And the house looks very different from the front than it does on the side than it does from the back. In the front of the house, Chris McDonough, as Howard Bloom so vividly lays out in his book, whoever has to live down there, you can't keep the light out. Even if you use darkened curtains, every time a car pulls up in that driveway, that parking area, and a lot of people do because it's a very steep and narrow road. It's one of the only places to

turn around and go back down the descent of the hill. This house is near the top of a hill and people are turning around and pulling in. It's a party house. Every house around it is a party house, constant traffic. So the low man on the totem pole gets these two bedrooms and that would be Dylan and Bethany. Ergo, therefore, Chris McDonough, they keep their doors locked and their curtains pulled almost all the time. That is an entry point to get to the other floors. So people visiting the second, third floor residence often come through that door. So they keep their doors locked, Chris McDonough, and their curtains closed. And that's why. And Bloom lays it out in his book. That's why the doors were locked.

Yeah, absolutely. You're correct, Nancy. I would agree with you that, you know, the point of entry would, you know, for an individual like this who has taken so much time to, you know, plan this out potentially, to come through that front door, you know, just doesn't make sense. The back point of entry would make much more sense, which also brings us to, you know, the communication thought process. If I can comment on that for a moment, You know, today, you know, this generation just communicates via text. Remember, up until 4 o'clock, 4 a.m., they're still getting people knocking on that door, i.e. the food delivery, etc. So it wouldn't surprise me one iota if at some point when these texts are revealed that they're communicating with each

other, they're trying to communicate with their roommates. And quite frankly, when it goes quiet and Koberger comes down those stairs, they may have even been thinking the party's over. This is the last guy out. And they may have even gone back to bed. And so that in of itself, the fear factor could play into this. Or quite frankly, like you mentioned earlier, maybe there's alcohol on board and they're just exhausted. They're just they're just college students. They're going back to sleep. And that would account for the delay. And much has been made of the fact that Koberger was wearing a mask.

Why would she have not been suspicious of that? Do I have to say COVID? Yeah, absolutely. And that does play into this. Now, early on, we heard Kelly Gonzalez's parents speaking out, stating she was the target. And I understand that because her wounds were so much more heinous than Maddie's. But according to this new bombshell theory, Maddie was in fact the target. Also, we are learning from Howard Bloom's new book, When the Night Comes Falling, that there is blood evidence that Ethan Chapin jumped up and confronted Brian Koberger to protect his sweetheart, Zanna Kurnodal.

To Howard Bloom, I know that you have researched this so much that it may have become, you know, SOP to you, but to us, the revelations that you make in your book are, let me just say, illuminating. Tell me the facts that support your theory that Ethan was stabbed as he was trying to protect Zanna and that after he attacked Ethan, he goes and says, don't worry, I'm here to help you to Zanna and then kills her. What facts support your theory? Ethan coming up to confront Koberger was testimony that was made to the grand jury. There's also evidence in the coroner's report that was shared at the grand jury that he was killed with one massive cut to his neck that caught his jugular vein. Zana speaking out, first saying there's someone here, and then the assailant saying, don't worry, I've come to help

you. That's in the police documents. I think that's arguably one of the most chilling parts of this entire night, the suspect approaching Zanna and saying, don't worry, I've come to help you. I think that shows his maliciousness, his total commitment to the crime and to taking this victim and to making sure that anyone who encounters him is not going to live. You go into each of the victim's backgrounds painstakingly. And Zanna had an upsetting background as a child. Both of her parents had been in and out of jail. And what does she do?

She survives. She works harder and harder and harder. She's taken in by her aunt and she is victorious against all odds. And I am just imagining, imagining Joe Scott Morgan, her lying there in bed with her sweetheart, Ethan. And, you know, I think you were with us at some point at CrimeCon before last, Joe Scott, when I finally got to meet Ethan's mom, who is just amazing. No, you were not with us. But then later when you were speaking, she stood up and started talking and during your address and what a woman, the strength that mom had. She just, just remembering her and what she said to me at crime con still strikes me to this day. To you, Joe Scott, regarding the evidence, the blood spatter, the blood trail, the blood transfers, and what Howard Bloom is saying, I want to merge those. Because if I were telling this to a jury, I would have to.

I would have to describe what Howard Bloom says about how Koberger comes into the room and he is confronted by Ethan to protect his sweetheart, Zanna. Ethan is murdered by a slicing stab to the jugular. And then the killer, as Ethan crumples to the ground, moves forward to his next target, Zanna Kernodle. And she's afraid. And he says, don't worry, I'm here to help you. Explain how I can prove this at trial. I think that when you think about progression, we talk about in forensics a commingling of evidence.

And from the start with this case and you're trying to tie in the timeline, you're going to have commingled blood evidence that you're going to find at the scene. And what I mean by that, Nancy, is that the two victims upstairs, if they were in fact the first. He, Koberger, allegedly would have had blood evidence on him, and not just on him, but also this weapon. As he's advancing into Zanna's room, he's already taken Ethan's life with the slice to the throat. He's going to advance on her. We know that there's very specific contact between the perpetrator and Zanna. She fought back as well, Nancy. We have indication that at least through one report that she had a defensive wound on her hand that actually went down to the level of the tendons. That means that more than likely, more than likely, she probably grabbed hold of this blade and then it's withdrawn and it slices through the palm of her hand.

And we have to think about this scientifically. It's hard to dismiss the emotion, but you have to think about it as far as the progression. If you want to try to zero in on this and get an idea as to the order of these events, I think probably the biggest thing that this jury is going to see in this case when they see these crime scene images, Nancy, is that both of these locations, both of these rooms are going to be bathed in a lot of blood evidence. The big question is, how did he clear that house without transferring a bunch of blood evidence to either other locations in that house or certainly within the confines of that car? How did he escape that without having blood all over the place at his apartment, for instance? That remains to be seen. You know, Brian C. Stewart joining us, veteran trial lawyer, managing partner at Parker and

McConkle. He practices in this jurisdiction, Idaho and Utah. You know, the defense is really going to have a heck of a time because the predatory nature of what was said to Zanna. Think about it. Think about it. I would lay it out for a jury just as I believe it happened. Koberger walks into that dark room. Ethan jumps up from the bed. He approaches Koberger to protect his sweetheart, Zanna Kurnodal, who's still lying in the bed. He's immediately sliced across a jugular and falls to his death. Right here, he then advances on Zanna, who's lying in bed. And he says the deceiving words, don't worry, I'm here to help you, before he murders her. He is well within his wits. He is prepossessed of mind and he has the wherewithal to lie and deceive Zanna.

The predatory nature of his advancing silently towards Zanna Kernodle is bone chilling. I think the evidence clearly shows that he was clear-minded and intentional about everything that he did that night. And while we have to prove mens rea or a mental component in order to get a conviction, that doesn't necessarily include the motive or motivation for why he did the crimes. The mens rea would mean that they have to prove that he intended the actions that he did, which he clearly did, and then that he intended to take those lives. And it's impossible from the evidence that's available

to say that he didn't intend to stab them, that he didn't intend to take their lives. And it should be chilling, bone chilling, and to understand the ruthlessness of his actions. How you doing? How y'all doing today? Good, good. Take a look at your driver's license real quick if I could. See, he's right up on that van, man. He was right up on the back end of that van. Hold you over for tailgating. this your car okay cool where are you headed well we're coming from wsu where are you headed he later says we're going for Thai food and the dad's like, what? You were seeing body cam video

when a Hancock County, Indiana Sheriff's Department body cam, when they pull them over and asked to see Koberger's driver's license. Now it was argued back and forth and I claimed vehemently that this was no coincidence because there were two pullovers by local L.E. law enforcement in one trip home. When does that happen? How often do you get pulled over? I rarely get pulled over. So you get pulled over twice and you never even get a ticket. Oh, no, that stunk to high heaven. With me right now, Howard Bloom, author of a brand new book, When the Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders, which is amazing.

And in his book, he outlines how these two pullovers nearly cost the FBI their investigation or so they thought. Take a listen to more of the pullover. What's WSU? Okay, I'm having a hard time hearing you because of the traffic. So you're coming from Washington State University? Yeah. And you're going where? Oh. We're going to be going to Pennsylvania.

Oh, okay. Open on that. Yeah. We're a little, we're slightly much in the right direction. To Howard Bloom, I'm going to circle back to the fact that, unasked, he starts talking about SWAT teams swarming the area. Methink thou doth protest too much in the immortal words of William Shakespeare. Nobody asked, nobody asked yet. He's just regurgitating, vomiting the information when nobody asked. But I want to circle back to the so-called hat box operation that you describe so well in your book, When the Night Comes Falling.

Explain, and why did the FBI, who absolutely was following Koberger, as he and his dad across the country, thought that their entire operation may go up in flames? Well, as you point out, the FBI decided that Koberger was a person of interest. They decided this earlier before they even told the Moscow task force. They kept this to themselves for either one of two reasons. The first reason was that it was the identification was based on a genealogy, genetics, investigative genetic genealogy, and they thought that wouldn't hold up in court. Or a much more cynical explanation would be that the FBI didn't want to share the credit for Koberger's arrest with anyone else. So they go off and follow him. And they have cars, they have a plane in the air that's following his route. And suddenly, they see Koberger being stopped. And they don't know what's going on,

and they don't know what to do. They think a local cop, a local sheriff had seen the, be on the lookout for notice and swooped in on this Hyundai Elantra. Or they're also wondering, how is Koberger going to react? He is a suspect in a quadruple homicide. Is he going to put his foot on the accelerator and tear out? Or perhaps he's going to shoot anything as possible of the officer who's coming in to give him this traffic ticket. The FBI decides to stand back and see what happens. To their great relief, Koberger is allowed to go through, and they figure, well, this is just a traffic stop of some kind. Then nine minutes later...

And it's almost laughable, Howard, because the FBI actually has a bird in the air watching. And they see one pullover by the Hancock County sheriffs, and Koberger goes on his way, and then there's another pullover by the Hancock County sheriffs and Koberger goes on his way and then there's another pullover. Don't you know they're like what is happening down there? Why are they pulling over our quadruple murder suspect? I'm sure they were just and they couldn't say anything and they're watching from a bird, right? Yes, they have a Cessna flying overhead. You know, it's a hawk waiting to swoop down in case anything happens in effect.

And they've been building this case for six weeks and they're finally getting closer. And they think the whole case is going to be blown apart before they've connected all the dots. And they are filled with a sense of panic. Well, you know what, Howard? They were right. And this is no offense to Indiana at all. But I understand where the FBI is coming from. And you know how much I hate the feds.

But that said, Chris McDonough joining me, director of Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective and star of The Interview Room on YouTube. Chris, if they had stopped Koberger and he nutted up and they arrested him or sped off, anything could have happened because we can't, we can't predict what Koberger is going to do. Just like his father, he had no idea what his son might do. We would never have gotten the evidence that we got when they finally got home to the Pocono area. Remember they were surveilled. They went in finally or in the early morning hours, they catch him, I think in his shorts or underwear, wearing plastic gloves and separating his trash from everybody else's trash. And they see him go throwing trash in the neighbor's receptacle. None of that would have happened if local authorities had arrested Koberger for a traffic violation or if Koberger spun out and brought about his own arrest.

So I understand why they were worried. Yeah, and absolutely. And not only that, you remember this officer is leaning in. So if he would have seen anything in plain view, you know, what Doc Morgan was talking about, you know, any blood transfer or anything like that, well, the clock starts ticking right then and there. If this officer starts diving into this traffic stop, that you may have this fugitive task force surveillance team, you know, overhead and behind them going, hey, what the heck is going on here? So, and quite frankly, I hate to say it, but I've seen this as well as many others

numerous times where, you know, this thing could have gone south really fast, but fortunately they cut them loose and they were able to connect those dots later on. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What did you say about some SWAT team thing? Yeah, there was a mass shooting and everything. Where?

Where? Interesting. Well, it's horrifying. He's just on the university, right? Talk about volunteering. That's Koberger talking about the SWAT team as it related to a different homicide. But as you can see, he's going on and on and on about murders and SWAT teams that he wasn't asked about. And let's listen to more. Listen to the body cam. So y'all work at the university there? I actually do work there.

Okay. Okay. Yeah, I hadn't heard about that incident. Just yesterday? Yeah. It's really hard to hear it. Remember, that's a body cam that Ellie is wearing on her shoulder. And you hear the deputy say, interesting, interesting. And you hear Koberger's father, Michael, say, well, it's horrifying. So Koberger knew very well how his father would view a murder, much less a quadruple

murder. So, while the FBI and their bird in the air, the helicopter at Cessna, is watching two times police pull over Koberger en route home. Howard Bloom, in his book, When the Night Comes Falling, describes a, quote, hat box operation. Only if you're in law enforcement would you know what that means. What does that mean? And what is it? How does it relate to Koberger? The hatbox operation goes back to the days of the G-men, when the FBI used to wear fedoras and they would trail people on the street. They'd have the fedoras over their Brylcreem hat. Well, their surveillance techniques have changed. They now have cars, unmarked cars, planes, and even electronic devices. But the term stays. It means you're going to follow this guy. It's a complete operation.

You're not going to lose sight of him. The irony is the FBI loses Koberger for a while. They don't pick him up until a couple of hours later because he's taken a different route than the one they expected. And they pick him up through a license plate reader in Loma, Colorado, and then they stay on him. And it really befuddles me why in the last minute, after all of his father's research about the best route home, it was a long drive. He, Koberger, comes up with a very roundabout circuitous route home. It takes hours longer than necessary. And his father is so walking on eggshells around his son, Koberger, that he goes, okay, you're the boss. Fine. We'll go your way. Even though it made no sense. And that was not the route the FBI was expecting. And they lose Koberger.

Reminds me of the Securitas route. I believe he took the night after the murders to get back home. Oh, my stars. We've got all the digital evidence to get to. They're turning the phone off. They're turning the phone on the cell phone towers. And it's really interesting. Speaking of that, Howard, in your book, you talk about a pitch that Koberger makes to the local PD trying to get a job, an internship, and you quote what he says in his pitch.

And I found it really interesting how he would help rural police departments better analyze cell and digital data to incorporate it into cases and prosecutions, which tells me, of course, he didn't get the job, by the way, but it tells me how intricately familiar he is with digital evidence and supports the theory that he intentionally turned off his phone when he left the King Road address and when he went into the King Road address. Yes, no. Very much so. Also, that short note he writes reflects his arrogance, his sort of condescending attitude as he, the criminology doctoral candidate, he knows more than the local police. The irony is that within months that would be used against them, the evidence that they had compiled from cell phones and cell phone tower data.

Howard, you reveal a receipt that was found regarding a purchase of a uniform at Walmart. How does that play into this investigation? Well, Kohlberger has a blue Dickies work uniform, a work outfit, a one piece sort of body suit that he bought. And police are now theorizing that he wore that suit on the night of the killings. That's how he was able to escape without any bloodstains on his car, whatever. Before he got into the car, he removed the suit, put it into a plastic bag, garbage bag, they theorize. And that also explains that long route home that you've mentioned previously. He found a place to dispose of this Dickies work suit that was covered in blood and also the murder weapon.

You refer to a Dickies work suit. I believe it was purchased at Walmart. And that would explain not only why his clothes were not covered in blood, but the Dickies work suit, I think, is a jumper that you put on over your clothes if you wish. And that was never recovered. But to the receipt, did the receipt reveal when the uniform was purchased? It was purchased as best I've been able to ascertain. I'm sure they have the exact date. It was purchased within a month of the murders. That's what I was told. I don't have the exact date. So not any time that he was working in systems. Remember, he had a job where he was kind of like a repair guy way back when. This suit, this Dickey's work suit, was purchased

just before the murders. And another thing, you go into great detail about the complaints filed against him at Washington State University by female students. And it went on and on and on. It wasn't an overnight thing. The faculty, the administration there went to great pains to document what was, what was stated and to give him a chance to explain it. But you describe Howard the whole way home, how Koberger was seething about what had been said about him by these female students and, more important, how he was going to beat the rap and how they could not fire him. He was going to fight back. Little did he know they had already sent an email telling him it's over or sent him a letter telling him it was all over. But that seething that you describe in your book was riveting.

Yes. When he takes this trip across country with his father, he's filled with rage. At the same time, I believe he thought he was going to be able to return to Washington State after the Christmas break and he would start teaching again. He thought if there were charges up against him, he could talk his way out of it. That's what he kept on telling his father. I can beat this. They can't fire me without my having a hearing, and I can act as my own defense attorney, and I can convince them that I should not be fired. He needed this job, this job, this teaching

assistant paid for his $29,000 a year or so tuition and board. You know, I looked at your sources at the end of your book, and I don't see the sources for what was said in that car, his seething anger about these women. How dare they complain about him? Are you keeping many of your sources secret? Well, I've made arrangements with the people I spoke to that I cannot reveal their names. What I did do is pretty much where I started into this is what the FBI did. They built a family tree of genetic clusters. And so they worked their way to Brian Koberger. I did the reverse. I went after the relatives of people who were related to the Koberger family.

I kept on knocking on doors, reaching out to them until I got some of them who were in conversations with the Kobergers to talk to me. And that was my primary sources. Also, there were people in the town who had also spoken to them in the whole Stroudsburg, Albrightville area of Pennsylvania. In his book, Howard Bloom describes at the very beginning the austere room where the murder case was worked at police headquarters. And he says law enforcement divided their facts, marshaled their evidence into two categories, empirical and rhetorical.

Empirical, the hard evidence. Rhetorical, the why. And that's what we are doing tonight. Again, Howard Bloom, thank you for your book and for joining us again to part two of the analysis. And we barely scratched the surface, the analysis of what you have learned about the Koeberger investigation. Thank you to our other expert witnesses, but especially to you for joining us as we seek justice in our own way. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.