Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BONE-CHILLING BRYAN KOHBERGER DETAILS EMERGE Part 2

Episode Date: June 28, 2024

A new book claims Bryan Kohberger is not a random spree killer, but rather, he had one target in mind the night he allegedly killed four college students in their home off-campus in Moscow, Idaho. Author Howard Blum claims investigators believe in a non-targeted attack, the killer would have stopped at the first door inside the house, and it would have been instinctive to go into the first rooms after gaining entry, but that isn't what happened. Investigators point to the two surviving roommates, Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funke, as proof that Kohberger is after a specific target.  Listen as Nancy Grace and her panel discuss the points Howard Blum uncovers during his own investigation of the evidence submitted to a grand jury.  Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Howard Blum - Author: "When The Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for The Idaho Student Murders;" Instagram: howard_blum_author /X: howardblum    Brian C. Stewart - Trial Attorney and Managing Partner at Parker & McConkie,  https://www.parkerandmcconkie.com    Dr. Angela Arnold – Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA. Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital Chris McDonough  – Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective; Host of YouTube channel: “The Interview Room” Joseph Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” Twitter/X: @JoScottForensic See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. New and very disturbing details emerging surrounding the Brian Koberger quadruple murder case. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. What happened the fateful night of the University of Idaho four murders? New theories revealed in a special episode with author Howard Bloom. Thank you for being with us. With us, author Howard Bloom has just come out with an incredible book, full, chock full of not only theories, but facts supporting the theory, supporting the hypothesis of the prosecution that Brian Kober, in fact, murdered four young University of Idaho students. Howard Bloom, you describe in depth what happened with the two surviving roommates,

Dylan and Bethany. Listen. In the early morning hours between 4 a.m. and 4.30 a.m., Dylan Mortensen says she calls out to her friends who she thinks are being too loud. After hearing more loud noises, Mortensen again tells her roommates to calm down. She's trying to sleep. She turns and locks their door. Hearing loud noises again, Mortensen opens the door and sees Brian Koberger, allegedly, and believing him to be a partygoer who is leaving, says nothing, shuts and locks her door again. The girl that lived. According to prosecutors, Brian Koberger went into the home on King Road with a mission to commit the perfect murder? Could he actually commit mass murder and not leave a trace

behind? And what about the two that live, Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk? Listen. Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk are both home while their friends are murdered upstairs and are left unharmed. Sources tell ABC News and author Howard Bloom that Mortensen and Funk were using their cell phones to communicate before, during, and after the murders. Many have wondered since Mortensen and Funk were both in the home and on their cell phones when the murders were taking place, why is there an eight-hour delay police are called? And why were other friends called before police? Howard Bloom joining us with an all-star panel. And guys, remember, we're not having high tea at Windsor Castle. Jump in with your own theories and questions.

The state could use them. Howard Bloom, I'm curious as well, and you devote a lot of time to this in your book, When the Night Comes Falling, about the delay on Dylan Mortensen's part. She actually sees the killer leaving the home. There is a serious delay, and during that time, a lot of evidence could and most likely was lost. Question to you. You described the police grappling with that seven to eight hour delay. Describe that. The police are dumbfounded. They can't understand how this girl could see a killer in the house and do nothing about it.

Her behavior is irrational. And I think, though, ultimately, the police and I have concluded that a rational explanation is impossible. I think she was locked in a state of terror. I also believe Koberger, as he descended and passed her on his way out of the house, was locked in his own state of mania. He was surrounded by his own armory of hate, if you will. If Dillon had spoken out, if she had tried to penetrate the moment that he was locked in, I think she would have died. I think she would have become another victim. Her terror, her silence saved her life. You know, I haven't really thought about it in the way that you just stated it, which is chilling. Joe Scott Morgan joining me, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a hit series,

Body Bags podcast. Joe Scott, we've gone round and round about Dylan Mortensen more so than Bethany because Bethany, while there, did not see the perpetrator leaving. That's why more focus has been on Dylan Mortensen. What do you make of what Howard Bloom just said? I agree with him. If she had uttered a sound, she would be dead right now. I agree. Here's my perspective. I think that there's an element to this where Koberger, if he did in fact commit these crimes, was in such an exhausted state.

He has tunnel vision at this point in time. He's trying to clear himself of the scene. Think about all of the energy that he has expended at this point in time, starting on that top floor where there's just a slaughter that has taken place allegedly at his own hands. And then to be surprised by the other two residents on this floor with Zaina and Ethan, he has to encounter them and make his way past them. I don't know that people, and I hope people never do, understand the amount of energy that would go in to try to commit this kind of heinous crime. And so he's locked in.

I think that probably if she had, in fact, spoken, she would have just become an obstacle to him that he's trying to defeat to make his way to that door so he can get out and get in that car and leave. Much the way, according to Howard Bloom, Keely Gonsalves became, let me just say, an impediment because of the ferocity of the attack on Kelly Gonsalves. And her father said that he believed Kelly was the target. Now, Bloom is saying Maddie was the target and Kelly was in the way. So that supports what you're saying. But I want to follow up with Dr. Angela Arnold.

I want you to hear this, Howard Bloom and Brian Stewart. You often have to go to state of mind as a trial lawyer. Dr. Angela Arnold is with us, renowned psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find her at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Dr. Angie, let's analyze what we've just heard. How or could I use that at trial to explain to this jury why Dylan Mortensen did nothing. Now, I have defended Dylan Mortensen from the get go. Dylan Mortensen is a crime victim. Let's not forget that before everybody heaps on what she did wrong. OK, she did nothing wrong.

She had been out like many, many thousands of vandals. That's the college mascot drinking and having a good time. There was a football game that weekend. She comes home. It's really late at night around 4 AM. She's been partying. She hears a noise. She hears the dog. She hears her roommate saying something and she gets up in that state of mind. How does she know who he was, that he was a killer? How does she know he wasn't just someone visiting and leaving? People were ordering food. People were going to sleep. They've been partying all night long. It's four in the morning. Is that why she didn't call 911? Now, the crux, the rub is going to be what's in the cell phone communications between Bethany and Dylan. But can you think of, as a psychiatrist, a rational explanation as to why Dylan did not call 911?

Yes, I can, Nancy, because these are, let's just remember, these are kids that are in college. They're partying. It's close to the end of the semester. Would anyone in their right mind think, oh, my God, there's a killer in the house and my friends have been killed. I am sure that didn't even enter their minds. There was noise. Apparently there was always a lot of coming and going from this house because they're just kids in college having a good time. Right.

That was the that was the culture there. So she did nothing wrong. I have a feeling that with all of the communication back, back and forth and everything, she had no idea who he was. He wasn't, he, she didn't recognize him. He was just somebody walking through the house and she was probably a little bit scared because of the noise that she had heard. She was a little bit in shock.

I don't know. I don't know about her being scared because if she was scared, she would have called 911. I think she was a little bit drunk. And maybe she was, Nancy. And so if she was, it's not like she was out driving and drinking. She was in her home. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Slow down.

Sleeping it off. Slow down, Nellie. You're preaching to the choir right now. I'm on Dylan's side on this. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Back to Howard Bloom. Yes, I can explain away why she didn't call 911. But what do we know about her communications with Bethany during that time, the other roommate, does it prove she did know an attack was occurring

or does it prove the contrary? You are raising one of the great mysteries of this case. All I have been able to find out is that testimony about those texts were given to the grand jury. The grand jury heard about it. The grand jury reviewed some of those tests. What they said, I'd be dishonest if I said I knew. My feeling is, though, that Dylan and Bethany are both victims. Their lives are changed forever by these events. And, you know, we keep on looking for a rational explanation for Dylan's behavior. It wasn't a rational night. I think I know something. I think I can do something, Howard Bloom. And I may be very, be proven very wrong come trial time. But let me go to a trial strategist on this. Brian C. Stewart, veteran trial lawyer,

who is joining us from this jurisdiction in Idaho. He practices there in Utah. Brian, you've tried a lot of cases and if you want to win a case, you marshal your evidence. You have a plan what you're going. I recall when I would write out, yes, I would write out every question verbatim for every witness. Of course, you know, you have a plan when you go into a fight, but when you get a punch in the nose, the plan goes to, Hey, right? So you have a plan. Let's think about these communications, the communications between Dylan and Bethany.

We know they were communicating by phone. Thanks to Howard Bloom. We now know those were not phone calls. They were texts. Those texts were given to the grand jury who indicted Koberger. Think this through. I have a strong suspicion, a deduction that those texts were about what is the noise? Did you hear the dog? What's going on? Are they still awake?

Blah, blah, blah. Because Brian C. Stewart, if those texts were about, oh, my star, somebody's in the house. Did you hear a scream? I thought I heard a fight. And text to that genre. I believe those texts would have been used as establishing a timeline. We would have heard about the nature of those texts if they were probative. In other words, if they proved anything. I think that's right. We would have heard more about them. They would have given us more information about what the girls experienced during that period.

But to me, the fact that they were locked inside their rooms and sending texts rather than talking or going to find each other tells me that they were still in fear and didn't believe they were safe. Wait a minute. Brian, I don't know if you know that my 92 year old mother lives with us and my husband just gave me the greatest gift ever. I don't like jewelry, fancy cars or clothes. Don't even say fur. He gave me a granny cam. I love it. I can see what granny is doing at night. Has she fallen on the floor? Is she wandering around aimlessly? Do I need to go get out of bed at 3am and go check on her like I did the first eight years she lived with us?

How easy is it to text? Why do you want to get up when you're wearing nothing but a T-shirt, go out in the hall, knock on your roommate's door and go, hey, wake up. I've got a question. What's going on up there? Technical term. I don't know if you've got it in Idaho and Utah. B.S. Of course they're texting. I don't know if you've got it in Idaho and Utah. B.S. Of course they're texting.

I text back and forth with the twins. We're in there. They're in the back of the house. Right. That's not I don't find that disturbing at all. At all. Brian. I don't either.

But if they had heard some struggle, if they had heard any screaming, it would make entire sense to me that they would lay low and be paralyzed by, by fear during those hours. Okay. Chris McDonough joining me, director of Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective, star of the interview room on YouTube where I found him. Chris McDonough, haven't we both agreed that these two roommates, Dylan and Bethany, they were the low man on the totem pole in that they got the bottom bedrooms. And the house looks very different from the front than it does on the side than it does from the back. In the front of the house, Chris McDonough, as Howard Bloom so vividly lays out in his book, whoever has to live down there, you can't keep the light out. Even if you use darkened curtains, every time a car pulls up

in that driveway, that parking area, and a lot of people do because it's a very steep and narrow road. It's one of the only places to turn around and go back down the descent of the hill. This house is near the top of a hill and people are turning around and pulling in. It's a party house. Every house around it is a party house, constant traffic. So the low man on the totem pole gets these two bedrooms and that would be Dylan and Bethany. Ergo, therefore, Chris McDonough, they keep their doors locked and their curtains pulled almost all the time. That is an entry point to get to the other floors. So people visiting the second, third floor residence often come through that door. So they keep their doors locked, Chris McDonough, and their curtains closed. And that's why. And Bloom lays it out in his book.

That's why the doors were locked. Yeah, absolutely. You're correct, Nancy. I would agree with you that, you know, the point of entry would, you know, for an individual like this who has taken so much time to, you know, plan this out potentially, to come through that front door, you know, just doesn't make sense. The back point of entry would make much more sense, which also brings us to, you know, the communication thought process. If I can comment on that for a moment, you know, today, you know, this generation just communicates via text. Remember, up until 4 o'clock, 4 a.m., they're still getting people knocking on that door, i.e. the food delivery, et cetera. So it wouldn't surprise me one iota if at some point when these texts are revealed that they're communicating with each other, they're trying to communicate with their roommates. And quite frankly, when it goes quiet and Koberger comes down those stairs, they may have even been thinking the party's over.

This is the last guy out. And they may have even gone back to bed. And so that in of itself, the fear factor could play into this. Or quite frankly, like you mentioned earlier, maybe there's alcohol on board and they're just exhausted. They're just college students. They're going back to sleep. And that would account for the delay. And much has been made of the fact that

Koberger was wearing a mask. Why would she have not been suspicious of that? Do I have to say COVID? Yeah, absolutely. And that does play into this. Now, early on, we heard Kelly Gonsalves' parents speaking out, stating she was the target. And I understand that because her wounds were so much more heinous than Maddie's. But according to this new bombshell theory, Maddie was, in fact, the target. Also, we are learning from Howard Bloom's new book, When the Night Comes Falling, that there is blood evidence that Ethan Chapin jumped up and confronted Brian Koberger to protect his sweetheart, Zanna Kurnodal. To Howard Bloom, I know that you have researched this so much that it may have become, you know, SOP to you.

But to us, the revelations that you make in your book are, let me just say, illuminating. Tell me the facts that support your theory that Ethan was stabbed as he was trying to protect Zanna and that after he attacked Ethan, he goes and says, don't worry, I'm here to help you to Zanna and then kills her. What facts support your theory? Ethan coming up to confront Koberger was testimony that was made to the grand jury. There's also evidence in the coroner's report that was shared at the grand jury that he was killed with one massive cut to his neck that caught his jugular vein. Zana speaking out, first saying there's someone here, and then the assailant saying, don't worry, I've come to help you. That's in the police documents. I think that's arguably one of the most chilling parts of this entire night, the suspect approaching Zana and saying, don't worry, I've come to help you. I think that shows his maliciousness, his total commitment to the crime and to taking this victim and to

making sure that anyone who encounters him is not going to live. You go into each of the victim's backgrounds painstakingly. And Zanna had an upsetting background as a child. Both of her parents had been in and out of jail. And what does she do? She survives. She works harder and harder and harder. She's taken in by her aunt and she is victorious against all odds. And I am just imagining, imagining Joe Scott Morgan, her lying there in bed with her sweetheart, Ethan. And, you know, I think you were with us

at some point at CrimeCon before last, Joe Scott, when I finally got to meet Ethan's mom, who is just amazing. No, you were not with us. But then later when you were speaking, she stood up and started talking and during your address and what a woman, the strength that mom had. still strikes me to this day. To you, Joe Scott, regarding the evidence, the blood spatter, the blood trail, the blood transfers, and what Howard Bloom is saying, I want to merge those. Because if I were telling this to a jury, I would have to. I would have to describe what Howard Bloom says about how Koberger comes into the room and he is confronted by Ethan to his next target, Zanna Kernodle. And she's afraid.

And he says, don't worry, I'm here to help you. Explain how I can prove this at trial. I think that when you think about progression, we talk about in forensics a commingling of evidence. And from the start with this case and you're trying to tie in the timeline, you're going to have commingled blood evidence that you're going to find at the scene. And what I mean by that, Nancy, is that the two victims upstairs, if they were in fact the first, he, Koberger, allegedly would have had blood evidence on him and not just on him, but also this weapon. As he's advancing into Zanna's room, he's already taken Ethan's life with the slice to the throat. He's going

to advance on her. We know that there's very specific contact between the perpetrator and Zanna. She fought back as well, Nancy. We have indication that at least through one report that she had a defensive wound on her hand that actually went down to the level of the tendons. That means that more than likely, more than likely, she probably grabbed hold of this blade and then it's withdrawn and it slices through the palm of her hand. And we have to think about this scientifically. It's hard to dismiss the emotion, but you have to think about it as far as the progression. If you want to try to zero in on this and get an idea as to the order of these events, I think probably the biggest thing that this jury is going to see in this case when they

see these crime scene images, Nancy, is that both of these locations, both of these rooms are going to be bathed in a lot of blood evidence. The big question is, how did he clear that house without transferring a bunch of blood evidence to either other locations in that house or certainly within the confines of that car? How did he escape that without having blood all over the place at his apartment, for instance? That remains to be seen. You know, Brian C. Stewart joining us, veteran trial lawyer, managing partner at Parker and McConkle. He practices in this jurisdiction, Idaho and Utah. You know, the defense is really going to have a heck of a time because the predatory nature of what was said to Zanna. Think about it.

Think about it. I would lay it out for a jury just as I believe it happened. Coburger walks into that dark room. Ethan jumps up from the bed. He approaches Coburger to protect his sweetheart, Zanna Kurnodal, who's still lying in the bed. He's immediately sliced across a jugular and falls to his death. Right here, he then advances on Zanna, who's lying in bed. And he says the deceiving words, don't worry, I'm here to help you before he murders her. He is well within his wits. He is prepossessed of mind and he has the wherewithal to lie and deceive Zanna. The predatory nature

of his advancing silently towards Zanna Kernodle is bone chilling. I think the evidence clearly shows that he was clear-minded and intentional about everything that he did that night. And while we have to prove mens rea or a mental component in order to get a conviction, that doesn't necessarily include the motive or motivation for why he did the crimes. The mens rea would mean that they have to prove that he intended the actions that he did, which he clearly did, and then that he intended to take those lives. And it's impossible from the evidence that's available to say that he didn't intend to stab them, that he didn't intend to take their lives. And it should be chilling, bone chilling, and to understand the

ruthlessness of his actions. How you doing? How y'all doing today? Good, good. Take a look at your driver's license real quick if I could. See, he's right up on that van, man. He's right up on the back end of that van hold you over for tailgating is this your car okay cool where are you headed well we're coming from wsu where are you headed he later says we're going for Thai food. And the dad's like, what? You were seeing body cam video when a Hancock County, Indiana Sheriff's Department body cam, when they pull them over and asked to see Koberger's driver's license. it was argued back and forth and I claimed vehemently that this was no coincidence because there were two pullovers by local LE law enforcement in one trip home. When does that happen? How often do you get pulled over? I rarely get pulled over. So you get pulled over twice and you never even get a ticket. Oh no, that's stuck to high heaven. With me right now, Howard Bloom, author of a brand new book, When the Night Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders, which is amazing.

And in his book, he outlines how these two pullovers nearly cost the FBI their investigation, or so they thought. Take a listen to more of the pullover. What's WSU? I go to the university, basically. And we listen to the students. That's very important. That is what's in the area.

Okay, I'm having a hard time hearing you because of the traffic. So you're coming from Washington State University? Yeah. And you're going where? Oh. We're going to be going to Pennsylvania. Oh, okay. Open on that.

Yeah. So we're a little, we're slightly much driving. To Howard Bloom, I'm going to circle back to the fact that unasked, he starts talking about SWAT teams swarming the area. Methink thou doth protest too much in the immortal words of William Shakespeare. Nobody asked. Nobody asked. Yet he's just regurgitating, vomiting the information when nobody asked. But I want to circle back to the so-called hatbox operation that you describe so well in your book.

When the night comes falling, explain. And why did the FBI, who absolutely was following Koberger as he and his dad across the country, thought that their entire operation may go up in flames. Well, as you point out, the FBI decided that Koberger was a person of interest. They decided this earlier before they even told the Moscow task force. They kept this to themselves for either one of two reasons. The first reason was that the identification was based on genealogy, genetics, investigative genetic genealogy, and they thought that wouldn't hold up in court. Or a much more cynical explanation would be that the FBI didn't want to share the credit for Kohlberg's arrest with anyone else. So they go off and follow him. And they have cars, they have a plane in the air that's

following his route, and suddenly they see Kohlberger being stopped. And they don't know what's going on and they don't know what to do. They think a local cop, a local sheriff, had seen, be on the lookout for notice and swooped in on this Hyundai Elantra. Or they're also wondering, how is Koberger going to react? He is a suspect in a quadruple homicide. Is he going to get on the, you know, put his foot on the accelerator and tear out, or perhaps he's going to shoot anything as possible of the officer who's coming in to give him this traffic ticket. The FBI decides to stand back and see what happens. To their great relief, Koberger is allowed to go through and they figure, well, this is just a

traffic stop of some kind. Then nine minutes later. And it's almost laughable, Howard, because the FBI actually has a bird in the air watching. And they see one pullover by the Hancock County sheriffs and Koberger goes on his way. And then there's another pullover. Don't you know, they're like, what is happening down there? Why are they pulling over our quadruple murder suspect? I'm sure they were just and they couldn't say anything. And they're watching from a bird, right?

Yes, they have assessed and they're flying overhead. You know, it's a hawk waiting to swoop down in case anything happens in effect. And they've been building this case for six weeks and they're finally getting closer. And they think the whole case is going to be blown apart before they've connected all the dots. And they are filled with a sense of panic. But you know what, Howard? They were right. And this is no offense to Indiana at all, but I understand where the FBI is coming from. And you know how much I hate the feds, but that said, Chris McDonough joining me, director cold case foundation, former homicide detective and star of the interview room on

YouTube. Chris, if they had stopped Koberger and he nutted up and they arrested him or sped off. Anything could have happened because we can't, we can't predict what Koberger is going to do. Just like his father, he had no idea what his son might do. We would never have gotten the evidence that we got when they finally got home to the Pocono area. Remember, they were surveilled. They went in finally or in the early morning hours, they catch him, I think in his shorts or underwear, wearing plastic gloves and separating his trash from everybody else's trash. And they see him go throwing trash in the neighbor's

receptacle. None of that would have happened if local authorities had arrested Koberger for a traffic violation or if Koberger spun out and brought about his own arrest. So I understand why they were worried. Yeah, and absolutely. And not only that, you remember this officer is leaning in. So if he would have seen anything in plain view, you know, what Doc Morgan was talking about, you know, any blood transfer or anything like that, well, the clock starts ticking right then and there. If this officer starts diving into this traffic stop, that you may have this fugitive task force surveillance team, you know, overhead and behind them going, hey, what the heck is going

on here? So, and quite frankly, I hate to say it, but I've seen this as well as many others numerous times where, you know, this thing could have gone south really fast. But fortunately, they cut them loose and they were able to connect those dots later on. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What did you say about some SWAT team thing? Yeah, there was a mass shooting and everything. Where?

Where? Interesting. Well, it's horrifying. It's the universe. Talk about volunteering. That's Koberger talking about the SWAT team as it related to a different homicide. But as you can see, he's going on and on and on about murders and SWAT teams that he wasn't asked about.

And let's listen to more. Listen to the body cam. So y'all work at the university there? I actually do work there. Oh. I do work there. It's a PhD in cryptocurrency. Okay.

Okay. Yeah, I hadn't heard about that incident. Just yesterday or? This happened more than a year ago. About an hour and a half ago. We're still wrapping it up. I'm not sure there's two shootings, but they did shoot somebody. And then we don't know about that, actually.

It's really hard to hear it. Remember, that's a body cam that Ellie is wearing on her shoulder. And you hear the deputy saying, interesting, interesting. And you hear Koberger's father, Michael, say, well, it's horrifying. So Koberger knew very well how his father would view a murder, much less a quadruple murder. So while the FBI and their bird in the air, the helicopter at Cessna, is watching two times police pull over Koberger in route home. Howard Bloom, in his book, When the Night Comes Falling, describes a, quote, hatbox operation. Only if you're in law enforcement would you know what that means. What does that mean and how does it relate to Koberger? The hatbox operation goes back to the days of the G-men, when the FBI used to wear fedoras and they would trail people on the street.

They'd have the fedoras over their grill cream hat. Well, their surveillance techniques have changed. They now have cars, unmarked cars, planes, and even electronic devices. But the term stays. It means you're going to follow this guy. It's a complete operation. You're not going to lose sight of him. The irony is the FBI loses Koberger for a while. They don't pick him up until a couple of hours later because he's taken a different route than the one they expected. And they pick him up through a license plate reader in Loma, Colorado, and then they stay on him. And it really befuddles me why in the last minute, after all of his father's research about the best route home, it was a long drive, he, Koberger, comes up with a very roundabout circuitous route home.

It takes hours longer than necessary. And his father is so walking on eggshells around his son, Koberger, that he goes, okay, you're the boss. Fine. We'll go your way. Even though it made no sense. And that was not the route the FBI was expecting. And they lose Koberger. Reminds me of the circuitous route. I believe he took the night after the murders to get back home. Oh, my stars. We've got all the digital evidence to get to the turning the phone off, the turning the phone on the cell phone towers. And it's really interesting. Speaking of that, Howard, in your book, you talk about a pitch that Koberger makes to the local PD trying to get a job, an internship. And you quote what he says in his pitch. And I found it really interesting how he would help rural police better analyze cell and digital data to incorporate it into cases and prosecutions, which tells me, of course, he didn't get the job, by the way, but it tells me how intricately

familiar he is with digital evidence and supports the theory that he intentionally turned off his phone when he left the King Road address and when he went into the King Road address. Yes, no. Very much so. Also, that short note he writes reflects his arrogance, his sort of condescending attitude as he, the criminology doctoral candidate, he knows more than the local police. The irony is that within months that would be used against him, the evidence that they had compiled from cell phones and cell phone tower data. Howard, you reveal a receipt that was found regarding a purchase of a uniform at Walmart. How does that play into this investigation?

Well, Kohlberger has a blue Dickies work uniform, a work outfit, a one piece sort of body suit that he bought. And police are now theorizing that he wore that suit on the night of the killings. That's how he was able to escape without any bloodstains on his car, whatever. Before he got into the car, he removed the suit, put it into a plastic bag, garbage bag, they theorize. And that also explains that long route home that you've mentioned previously. He found a place to dispose of this Dickie's work suit that was covered in blood and also the murder weapon. You refer to a Dickie's work suit. I believe it was purchased at Walmart. And that would explain not only why his clothes were not covered in blood, but the Dickie's work suit, I think, is a jumper that you put on over your clothes,

if you wish. And that was never recovered. But to the receipt, did the receipt reveal when the uniform was purchased? It was purchased as best I've been able to ascertain. I'm sure they have the exact date. It was purchased within a month of the murders. That's what I was told. I don't have the exact date. So not any time that he was working in systems. Remember, he had a job where he was kind of like a repair guy way back when. This suit, this Dickey's work suit, was purchased just before the murders. And another thing, you go into great detail about the complaints filed against him at Washington State University by female students. And it went on and on and on. It wasn't an overnight thing. The faculty, the administration there went to great pains

to document what was stated and to give him a chance to explain it. But you describe, Howard, the whole way home, how Koberger was seething about what had been said about him by these female students and, more important, how he was going to beat the rap and how they could not fire him. He was going to fight back. Little did he know they had already sent an email telling him it's over or sent him a letter telling him it was all over. But that seething that you describe in your book was riveting.

Yes, when he takes this trip across country with his father, he's filled with rage. At the same time, I believe he thought he was going to be able to return to Washington State after the Christmas break, and he would start teaching again. He thought if there were charges up against him, he could talk his way out of it. That's what he kept on telling his father. I can beat this. They can't fire me without my having a hearing. And I can act in my own as my own defense attorney. And I can convince him that I should not be fired. He needed this job, this job, this teaching assistant paid for his

twenty nine thousand dollars a year or so tuition and board. You know, I looked at your sources at the end of your book, and I don't see the sources I spoke to that I cannot reveal their names. What I did do is pretty much where I started into this is what the FBI did. They built a family tree of genetic clusters, and so they worked their way to Brian Koberger. I did the reverse. I went after the relatives of people who were related to the Koberger family. I kept on knocking on doors, reaching out to them until I got some of them who were in conversations with the Kobergers to talk to me. And that was my primary sources. Also, there were people in the town who had also spoken to them in the whole Stroudsburg, Albrightville area of Pennsylvania. In his book, Howard Bloom describes at the very beginning the austere room where the

murder case was worked at police headquarters. And he says law enforcement divided their facts, marshaled their evidence into two categories, empirical and rhetorical. Empirical, the hard evidence. Rhetorical, the why. And that's what we are doing tonight. Again, Howard Bloom, thank you for your book and for joining us again to part two of the analysis. And we barely scratched the surface, the analysis of what you have learned about the Koeberger investigation. Thank you to our other expert witnesses, but especially to you for joining us as we seek justice in our own way. Nancy Grace signing off. Good night, friend.

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