Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BONUS: Death by text. Supreme Court will not hear Michelle Carter's appeal

Episode Date: January 20, 2020

Michelle Carter sent dozens of texts to Conrad Roy urging her boyfriend to kill himself in the days before the teen killed himself. Carter was convicted in his death and now the Supreme Court has refused to hear her appeal. , Nancy Grace discusses the unusual case with Maryland criminal defense lawyer Robin Ficker and reporter John Lemley. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. And Michelle Carter was convicted in the death of her very tender-hearted 18-year-old boyfriend, Conrad Roy III, who parked his truck, filled it up with carbon monoxide, and killed himself after several failed suicide attempts. Evidence at trial shows Michelle Carter sends text messages leading up to the suicide, demanding he go ahead with his plan, spoke to him on the phone the day he took his own life, and was most likely on the phone listening as he died. A police station about a block away from where his truck was found in a grocery store parking lot. But in the last hours, a major break.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Can you imagine sinking all your love, all your heart, your time, your energy, your money have your teen son meet up with a woman who bombards him with literally thousands of texts urging him to commit suicide, even giving him a tutorial about how to make a generator work so he can hole up in his vehicle and die of carbon monoxide poisoning. Well, it didn't set well with a fact finder and Michelle Carter was convicted in the death of Conrad Roy III, who parked his truck, filled it up with carbon monoxide and killed himself after several failed suicide attempts. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Thank you for being with us. In the last hours, a major development in the case. The defense appealed this case all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court, and in the last hours, the Supreme Court rules. Straight out to John Limley. What's the latest, Limley? Nancy, the defense of Michelle Carter appears to have come to an unsuccessful end. The Supreme Court announcing that they will not take up Carter's case. This ruling keeping in place her involuntary manslaughter conviction. The appeal, honestly, seems to have been a long shot from the very beginning. Four of the nine justices would have to agree on oral arguments, and this only happens in about 1% of the cases. But Carter's case was one of the first of its kind, not just in Massachusetts, but the world.

The idea that someone could be convicted of killing someone without inflicting any harm physically made the verdict a landmark decision. And that's not all. Go ahead, John Limley. Nancy, it was just hours after the Supreme Court left her conviction in place that it was announced that Michelle Carter is being released from jail next week. The Bristol County Sheriff's Department telling us that Carter will be released next Thursday. That's January 23rd. She was originally sentenced to 15 months behind bars with release set for May of this year. But inmates at the Bristol County House of Corrections where Carter is serving time are able to earn time for good behavior.

Bristol County tells us that there have been no problems and that she's been doing all that's been asked of her while at the facility. According to the sheriff's office, she's been attending programs, getting along with inmates. She's been polite to the center's staff and volunteers and that they've had no discipline issues with Carter at all. All of this meaning that she can exit the prison some four months early. Go ahead and do it. Why haven't you already killed yourself? You always say you're gonna do it and then you don't. Just a few of the thousands of texts sent by Michelle Carter to her young and very impressionable boyfriend. Listen. The involuntary manslaughter trial of

michelle carter the 20 year old plainville woman accused of causing her boyfriend conrad roy's death by pushing him to kill himself back in july 2014 she used conrad as a pawn prosecutors say it was all an act though from a teen who wanted attention from her boyfriend's death. Prosecutors in her trial claim that she told the 18 year old to kill himself numerous times over text messages and phone calls. Texts between Carter and Roy show she pushed him to drive out to a remote spot and poison himself

with carbon monoxide in his car. Do it, babe. Do it. Go ahead. Aren't you gonna do it? How does a young woman become so evil that nothing will please her until her boyfriend kills himself? She wanted his head on a platter. How did we get here? As his truck was filling with carbon monoxide, he was scared. He got out. It was the defendant on the other end of the phone who ordered him back in. Did she use her boyfriend as a pawn in a sick game, persuading him, just a young boy, a teen,

a sensitive boy that had bouts of depression, that had tried to kill himself before. Did she use him, convince him to commit suicide in order to get attention as the, quote, grieving girlfriend, even carrying out a dry run two days before Conrad Roy III committed suicide. Joining me, a renowned attorney, Robin Thicker, out of the Maryland jurisdiction, who practices all across the country. Thicker, have you, first of all, welcome. Thicker, have you actually read the thousands of text messages she sent him on top of phone calls, emails, the works, trying to get him to kill himself?

I certainly have read them. But here, I think the case is simple. The question is, do you believe or not that actions speak louder than words? Look at his actions. He drove the truck there where he could do this. He installed the generator that was going to produce the gas. He put up the windows. He attempted suicide many times before. He researched hundreds of times the Internet how to do this. He turned on the engine. He's responsible. His actions caused the death, not her words.

Really? Knowing that he was so incredibly prone to depression, let's take a listen to some of the things that she actually said to him. Okay, let's hear her words that Mr. Ficker is so anxious to discount because there are plenty of them, such as, you need to stop thinking about this and just do it because overthinking always kills overthinking. You can't think about it. You just and just do it. Because overthinking always kills overthinking. You can't think about it. You just have to do it. You said you were going to do it. Like, I don't get why. I don't get why you aren't. So, and another, so I guess you're not going to do it then.

All that for nothing. I'm just confused. Like you were so ready and determined. Then the guy, Conrad Roy, a teen boy who was in love with this girl. He wants to get out of it. He wants to not kill himself. She says, you kept pushing it off. You say you'll do it, but you never do. It's always going to be that way. If you don't take action, you're just making it harder on yourself by pushing it off. You just have to do it. Do you want to do it now? I mean, she's like the devil on his shoulder. Quote, it's probably the best time to do it now because everyone is sleeping.

Just go somewhere in your truck. No one is really out there right now because it's an awkward time. And if you don't do it now, you're never going to do it. And you can say you'll do it tomorrow, but you probably won't. And Conrad, I told you, I'll take care of your family. Don't worry about them. Everyone will take care of them to make sure they won't be alone. People will help them through it. We talked about this. They'll be okay and accept it. People who commit suicide don't think this much. They just do it. Did you know all that?

This is a lot of chit-chat. If he had done nothing, her words would have meant absolutely nothing. Her words to you mean something only because of his causative acts which caused his death he turned on the engine he drove there he put the windows up he took the drugs that made his thinking unclear he researched this if a terrorist had researched how to set off a bomb and then did it he would be the cause not someone on the telephone. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Welcome back. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

In the last hours, a bombshell. The United States Supreme Court takes a stand on an appeal brought by Michelle Carter, a young woman who insists her teen boyfriend commit suicide. In the last hours, the Supreme Court essentially lets her conviction stand by refusing to listen to her case. But how did it all start? Prosecutors say a Massachusetts woman pressured a friend to take his own life because she wanted sympathy. She used Conrad as a pawn. What about this? Before I read more of her malicious texts, I have spoken at length with

his defense attorney. I've spoken at length with his family. The family blames her, thinking but for Michelle Carter, their boy would be alive. The mother went for a walk with him on the beach just before he committed suicide and had no indication anything was going to happen. But then he gets on the phone and the text with Michelle Carter. He goes, you got to do it right now. In fact, she says, if you want it as bad as you say you do, it's time to do it right now. Don't be scared. You made this decision. If you don't do it tonight, you're going to be thinking about it all the time and you'll be miserable the rest of your life. Not only that, we're talking about Michelle Carter, a 20-year-old woman charged with manslaughter

of a teen boy who killed himself. She sent him thousands of texts, emails, encouraging him to take his own life, even telling him exactly how to do it, exactly how to jerry rig a generator so he will be able to kill himself quote you can also just take a hose and run that from the exhaust pipe to the rear window of your car and seal it with duct tape and shirt so it can't escape you'll die within like 20, 30 minutes, all pain-free, Conrad, all pain-free. In fact, she actually got mad, Robin Ficker, when a friend of Conrad's tried to move her tribute baseball tournament to her dead boyfriend,

to the dead boyfriend's hometown instead of her hometown and she actually got mad at him and wrote in a text you're not trying to get credit for this are you it's my idea i mean really seriously robin you know there's no law in Massachusetts against someone assisting in a suicide. There's no law here. But for his acts, you use the term but for, but for his acts, he wouldn't be dead. If words, standing alone, did not. Her words didn't cause death. If she had called me and said the same thing, I wouldn't have committed suicide. In my mind, she preyed on an innocent boy. Depression in teen boys is very common. She knew he had tried to commit suicide in the past and all it took was

basically a feather on his back for him to jump off a cliff in my mind it's like instructing someone how to create a bomb and then telling them when where how and then standing back when the bomb goes off wiping their hands of it saying oh i had nothing to do with that it's like the getaway driver out in the car during the bank robbery oh i wasn't there i didn't have anything to do with it i mean do you not see that analogy robin thicker i see your analogy but it doesn't carry the day she was also taking drugs herself to treat her psychiatric condition, and she wasn't thinking clearly. at, let me just say, controversial, that is stating that because she was on the antidepressant Celexa, which is prescribed widely, it's Dr. Peter Breguin, I believe is his name, Peter Breguin or Breguin, very controversial psychiatrist, claiming that she was basically involuntarily

intoxicated at the time because she was on an antidepressant. That's going nowhere. All right. That's a crazy argument. That's not working. It may not be working, but it's certainly one that the defense has to make. They have to throw in all possible winning arguments. Well, that's true.

To be competent. It's an argument in the alternative. If the judge doesn't believe that he caused his own death, then perhaps the judge can take some solace in that argument. I think the state's attorney is just doing their job. You're right. And that's a very common and accepted and traditional defense theory. You try this, that she's not the one that actually manually killed him. Two, you would go, the fallback argument is Robin Ficker, who is a very well-known defense attorney throughout the country, arguing that she was under the influence of Selexa.

Okay, nobody's going to buy that. But also, what about the traditional concepts of causation? That is why I believe, Robin Ficker, that the defense took the case away from a jury and they waived a right to a jury trial and they are having a bench trial with a judge only. Why do you think they did that, Robin? Well, I think they may have made a mistake because jury has to be unanimous. I have found, and I have a jury trial starting here shortly, I have found that there's always one or two holdouts, one or two people who have serious doubt.

It's more difficult to convince 12 people than just one. They may have made a mistake in going with the judge. You know, I have the exact opposite reaction for this reason, and I'm not saying you're wrong, but I was thinking, Robin, that it was a very wise move to go with Ben's trial because it takes out all emotionality. Because when you read, for instance, when he got out of the car and said he didn't want to kill himself that night, She says, get back in the car, get back in there and just do it. When you read things like that, it's very incendiary. A judge may be able to put emotions aside and focus on the fact that she was not there at the time of the suicide. Okay. He may be able to look at it more calmly than a jury would,

but I see what you're saying. It's easier to convince one than 12. And the whole concept, Robin, I mean, I've looked up a few similarities. There were some 1960s cases where people were charged playing Russian roulette and the other people at the table were charged with the victim's murder. There was also a case where a man loaded a gun for his wife and offered her tips on how to use it before she killed herself. Those have come under fire for the reasons that you're stating, Robin. In those cases, there was actually some act committed by the accused. Here, there really were no acts. She didn't purchase the generator or the truck or drive it there.

She did nothing. As a matter of fact, you talk about their relationship. It was simply a textual relationship. They weren't physically in love. They saw each other very few times. This was an imaginary relationship. If you're saying they never had sex, we're taking her word for that. But also, they did meet many times, but they texted, you're right, many, many more times than they met.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The defense of Michelle Carter appears to have come to an unsuccessful end. The Supreme Court announcing Monday they won't take up the case other than 17-year-old from Plainville, convicted in 2017 in the death of Conrad Roy, after a judge ruled her demanding text messages were enough to hold her criminally responsible for Roy's suicide. It's not terribly surprising. NewsCenter 5 legal analyst Vince DeMori says the appeal was a long shot from the start. Four of the nine justices have to agree to the oral arguments, which happens in only about one percent of cases. They hear cases all across the country when the various different courts are treating the cases differently that's when it's most important for the Supreme Court to step in but Carter's case was one of the first of its kind not just in

Massachusetts but the world the idea that someone could be convicted of killing someone without inflicting any harm physically made the verdict a landmark decision and while this is likely Carter's final legal battle it doesn't have to be Massachusetts is one of the few states where there's no time limit to ask for a new trial. So if the highest court makes another ruling about what constitutes free speech versus criminal behavior, she could always give it another go. As the case law develops and as the sort of situation on the ground, so to speak, changes, she may in fact seek to come back to the state court here and try again. The one thing she may want to get back is her name. The Supreme Court takes a stand in the case against Michelle Carter,

who is believed by Conrad Roy's family to single-handedly have pushed their teen son to suicide. It goes all the way up through the court system. That means there's the trial court, the state appeals court, the district court of appeals, and then the circuit court of appeals. And finally, the U.S. Supreme Court

weighs in. How did we get here? What happened to poor Conrad Roy? Prosecutors in her trial claim that she told the 18-year-old to kill himself numerous times over text messages and phone calls. Texts between Carter and Roy show she pushed him to drive out to a remote spot and poison himself with carbon monoxide in his car. Do it, babe. Do it. Go ahead. Aren't you gonna do it? There were thousands, I'm talking 10, 20,000 texts, thousands of emails, phone calls, the works.

But when I hear these words and I think about, I think about my boy and my daughter. You know, they're going to be teens in just a year. Robin Ficker. Think if someone says, the more you push this off, the more it's going to eat at you. You're ready. All you have to do is turn on the generator and you'll be free and happy. No more waiting. No more pain. 20 minutes max and you'll be in heaven. Everything will be fine. If you want it as bad as you say you do, it's time to do it now. Don't be scared. You've got to do it tonight.

If you don't, the rest of your life will be miserable. You know what? If somebody said that to one of my children, I would want them under the jail, okay? What about that, Vicar? There was no real relationship there. You have been a teenager, and I have too. When there's a real relationship, you want to spend as much time as you possibly can with that other person on a daily basis, not infrequently like these two were spending.

This was not a relationship. It was a make-believe relationship. She refers to him as her boyfriend. And then she played it up as the grieving girlfriend. That was meaningless talk. They were not boyfriend and girlfriend. They were just people in the cloud talking to each other. Listen.

Tonight is the night. It's now or never. When he delayed, she expressed frustration and even anger. You better not be bullshitting me and saying you're going to do this than purposely get caught. She pressured him not to procrastinate. In one text, when he simply asked her, how was your day? She replied, when are you going to do it? Stop ignoring the question. She helped him devise a plan to kill himself using a combustion engine to poison himself with carbon monoxide gas. She encouraged him to Google ways to make carbon monoxide, but she also

proposed other painless and even effective suicide methods, such as hanging or by using a bag. Hanging is painless, and it takes like a second if you do it right. When they finally decided on a portable generator as a mechanism of his death, she told him to take some Renadryl just in case. When the original generator malfunctioned, she told him to get a different gas machine. It was then that he found the gas-powered water pump.

She encouraged him to conceal the suicide plan from his parents. She told him to lie to his mother about where he was going so that she would not interfere with him leaving the house to commit suicide. She warned him not to let his father see him get the gas machine. She advised him on how not to get caught, telling him not to do it in his driveway where he would be easily found. She instructed him to go to a secluded parking lot. Just park your car.

Sit there. It's not a big deal. She made him promise that he would go through with the plan. You need to do it, Conrad. Okay, I'm going to do it today, he said. You promise? Conrad, I promise, babe. I have to now.

Carter, you can't break a promise. Go somewhere. You know you won't break a promise. Go somewhere. You know you won't get caught. You can find a place. I know you can. And he made good on that promise. Just after 6 p.m. on July 12, he left his mother's house, telling her that he was going to his friend's house.

Instead, he drove to the Kmart parking lot. His last text at 625 was to the defendant, okay, I'm almost here. She then asks, did you delete all the text messages? But it doesn't end with text messages. After that last text, Conrad called the defendant at 6.28 p.m., where they spoke for 30, I'm sorry, they spoke for 43 minutes. Immediately after that phone call at 7.12, the defendant called him back and their phones connected for another 47 minutes. Three minutes later at 8.02, the defendant texts a friend that she was just on the phone loud noise. She heard moaning.

And after 20 minutes, he wouldn't answer when she called his name. I would suggest that the records will show that call was the last call that Conrad Roy ever made. He never used his phone again. And at 825, the defendant was texting another friend. I think he just killed himself. Your Honor, this case is a suicide case. It is a suicide. It is not a homicide.

And older than Michelle Carter, who has had a long, long history of suicidality, suicide attempts, suicidal ideation, finally caused his own death. Michelle Carter was not present. Michelle Carter had been texting with him. She did not physically see this individual for over one year. The evidence will show at times to the texting. Conrad Roy even acknowledges that

Michelle doesn't have influence over her. And the evidence of the texting is overwhelming that Conrad Roy was on this path to take his own life for years. And I would also suggest to this court, go through this case methodically and read in a chronological order. The Commonwealth is trying to have it so that the evidence is all about Michelle Carter. There is so much evidence about Conrad Roy and his decisions and his choices that he made. For instance, the water power pump that caused

the death of Conrad Roy, we are told. How did that pump, what will the evidence show how the pump physically got into the car? The evidence will show that the pump was placed in the car by Conrad Roy. Two days prior, how did a generator get into the back of his truck? Not the water pump that ultimately took his life. What about a generator two days before? The evidence will show that Conrad Roy tried to take his own life two days prior. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us and our awesome guest today. In the last hours, the U.S. Supreme Court brings down the hammer on a young woman, Michelle Carter, who coaches, aids, abets, ridicules, and bullies her teen boyfriend into his death. And to top it all off, now we learn Michelle Carter set to walk free early release. Take a listen to our friends at WHDH7 Boston. This is Kimberly Bookman. Carter is heading home in days. We understand while she was here,

she had a cellmate and got along well with the prison population. This case legally is not over. Michelle Carter's attorney vowed to appeal her conviction for involuntary manslaughter, even if it meant taking the case all the way to the Supreme Court. But today, the highest court in the

land announced it will not hear Carter's appeal on what is now known as the suicide texting case. Her attorney issued this statement on the ruling. The U.S. Supreme Court not accepting Michelle Carter's petition at this time is unfortunate. Clearly, many legal scholars and many in the legal community understand the dangers created by the unprecedented decisions of the Massachusetts courts. To that end, we will be weighing our next steps in correcting this injustice.

I'm surmising that they would want to go to the Supreme Court to try to have the case overturned so that there would be no record for her. But whether the slate was wiped clean or not, Carter has spent the last year serving time in the Bristol County House of Corrections. Time served is time served, so there's no way to turn that clock back. In 2017, a judge ruled that Carter caused her boyfriend, 18-year-old Conrad Roy's death by urging him in a phone call to get back into his carbon monoxide-filled truck and go ahead with his plan to commit suicide. There were text messages that Carter sent leading up to Roy's death where she encouraged Roy to kill himself. Sentenced in February to 15 months

in prison, Carter is getting out early for good behavior. Michelle Carter's been a model prisoner. She's been involved in programs. She's gotten a certificate in food services and she's been very active in social programs as well as some self-help programs. Take a listen to Conrad Roy's family speaking to our friend Dr. Oz. But she tried to console me. She told me that how much he loved me. I did nothing wrong. But when she sent me a message in August and she said, I tried to save him. You tried to save him. Don't feel guilty. And I was like, red flag. What is going on? So I sent the message to the detective and I said, she had some, she knew, she knew knew that he passed she knew that he was going to commit suicide we had no idea we we spent the day with him the day he died I walked the beach

with him we smiled we laughed Camden you spent the last day of your brother's life with him yeah we all three of us did did you have any idea um. He even took us out for ice cream after. Then right after that, he went and went to the parking lot, I guess. Now we learn Michelle Carter set to walk free early release. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.