Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BONUS: The case against Colorado dad Chris Watts

Episode Date: September 29, 2018

The case is building against Chris Watts, the Colorado father accused of killing his wife and two daughters, as the judge orders Watts to give DNA samples to investigators. Nancy Grace updates the story with medical examiner Dr. Jan Gorniak, forensics expert Karen Smith, psycho analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, lawyer Ashley Willcott, and reporter Ellen Killoran. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. If you have heard about the murder of Jessica Chambers, do not miss the new docuseries on Oxygen. It's the true story of a teen girl, a cheerleader in Mississippi, who is burned alive. And the story of the man accused of this heinous crime. Is it the right guy on trial? Who is he? And who is Jessica Chambers? And how does such a horrific crime occur? With more questions than answers, this is a case that has captured national headlines, taken over social media, and leaves a small town divided. This is a must-see TV event. It features exclusive interviews that take you inside the investigation as the search for answers and justice goes on.

Unspeakable Crime, The Killing of Jessica Chambers, Saturdays at 7, 6 Central on Oxygen, the new network for crime. My daddy is a hero. He helps me grow up strong. He helps me snuggle too. You are hearing a four-year-old Belle sitting in the back seat of the Watts family car, singing a hero song for her father, Christopher Watts. She's dead. She was murdered.

In bombshell news right now, did her father, the so-called hero Chris Watts, confess to fatally strangling his wife in a rage after heart-to-heart with his father. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Straight out to Ellen Kaloran, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. The very latest suggests that Chris Watts, who is now charged with first-degree murder in the death of his wife, Shanann, and their two little girls, plus the first boy to enter the scene, Shanann was pregnant with a baby boy. At first, Watts says he strangled his wife in a fit of rage after he sees her on the baby cam murdering the girls.

That really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know what what let me back it up ek because that's actually not the very first thing he said the very first thing he said when his wife and daughters two little girls were missing was to beg for their return listen to chris watts let's get it from the horse's mouth. Shannon, Bella, Celeste, if you're out there, just come back. If somebody has her, just please bring her back. I need to see everybody. I need to see everybody again. This house is not complete without anybody here.

Please bring her back. Well, you know, if you really want to see them, you know where to look, Chris Watts. At the oil field where you bury their bodies in vats of oil. I mean, at least that's what the prosecution says. You know what, Ellen? Joining me, Ellen Kalor in CrimeOnline.com, renowned forensic expert from the Florida jurisdiction, Karen Smith, judge and lawyer and founder of childcrimewatch.com, Ashley Wilcott, Fulton County medical examiner, Dr. Jan Gorniak, and joining me

from Beverly Hills, psychoanalyst, Dr. Bethany Marshall. Okay, Ellen, let's just start at the beginning because the first thing that struck me, and Ashley, go ahead and laugh into your fist. When I first saw Shanann, I'm like, she's beautiful. And a little, let me just say a tiny bit envious, because she's so together. Because she had this beautiful matching outfit. And there was a picture of her in her den. It looked straight out of an ad you know those ads for furniture ads like you know rooms to go and it just was this beautiful

setting and she's like the perfect mom and she had gotten this awesome new job with like a patch that gives our nutrients and minerals to your body and she was finally making a lot to me a lot of money seventy thousand dollars a year and it was kind of a pyramid thing like um amway where not only do you sell the health patch but you also recruit other people to sell and then you get a portion not you get a portion of what they make what plus what you make and then they recruit and the company gets bigger and bigger and bigger so she's going to all these awesome destinations for conferences and she's got these beautiful girls and this this father or the chris watts it seems like a great husband there's a picture of

him in the backyard cutting the grass how many many times have I cut the grass? Cursing the entire time. But long story short, she had it all together. And now to top it all off, the answer to their prayers, they're getting a boy. They always wanted a boy. And she's got two girls and she's pregnant with the baby boy. I mean, Ellen, what the hay happened? That's right, Nancy. By all accounts, it was a picture perfect family, picture perfect marriage. The home was well appointed. Shannon was beautiful, well put together. The daughters and photos always in adorable outfits. Everything looked like it was going really, really well. Oh, wait, Ellen, Ellen, Ellen, Ellen, hold on. Dr. Bethany Marshall, I'm sure you'll want to analyze this.

Okay, there's this family at our church. They have five daughters. Five. They're precious. Every Sunday, they come in. They all have their own little matching outfits that the mother makes. All right. Or somehow gets it together to go out and finds the little matching outfits. And Bethany, don't get all into all the mindset of matching your children's outfits, because if I had it together, I would have matched the children when they were growing up. But mommy just, you know, was trying to keep them alive.

OK, and make it to the studio. And they're well behaved. They're perfect. They are. I'm not saying there's anything going on behind it. Right. And that is what goes through my mind that she was this mom, like the five little girls mom. They're totally devoted to the family. And I mean, it's it's envious it's envious well there's two different realities in that household there's there's the mom like the mother of the the five children that attend your church there's the mom who p.s is nice and brilliant she's nice and brilliant i mean couldn't i just hate her for p.s sake could there be something? No, she's perfect. And she's a DIYer. She can like,

drill things and hammer things. She's got this awesome college degree. I mean, the works. Okay, okay. Let me just throw that in. Go ahead. Well, I mean, you have Shanann, who has all these resources. She's smart. She's, she's becoming a big earner. She loves her children. One half of the story in that household is love. She loves her kids and she has another boy on the way. And the other half of the household is full of hate. And when you talk about the beautiful outfits, the father was going along with this. He was acting like this family was perfect and in a perfect world. But what we know about sociopaths, we have a phrase in my field that's called wearing the mask of sanity.

The sociopaths are very good at looking as if they're normal. They often have beautiful children and beautiful wives who are devoted to the family, while secretly they have a whole other life going on underneath. Sociopaths know they're not normal. So they learn to move and act in society as if they think like other people. And that's why it's always so shocking when something like this happens. You know, hold on, Ellen, I know I started this with you and I haven't even let you say five words yet. But Ashley Wilcott, something about our discussion right now. And I deal with dead bodies, crime scenes, autopsies, mass murder, serial murder, spree murder, torture murder, the works. I've seen it all

with a straight face and I never once even get queasy. But this is making me tear up, Ashley. I don't know what it is about this. Oh, this one's really bad because it hits too close to home. You do have somebody and it's not that different because she's working, she's taking care of her children, she has a husband, She has all of these things that you have, right? And that a lot of our listeners have. And so here they have all these things and it looks like the family's a normal family and functioning and getting through life and doing these things and enjoying their children and loving their children. And yet underneath the surface, you've obviously got a lot of other things going on and he's killed the family.

OK, I know this is the question for the for the ages. Why can't they just be happy? I don't get it. Dr. Bethany, why can't I mean, sometimes when I'm weary and I'm overwhelmed, I'm like, look what I have to be grateful for. I'm so happy. Why couldn't they just be happy? Why did it have to end up with the girls in a vat of crude oil and the mother in a shallow grave? Why? Well, one half of the family was happy. Shanann was happy. The children were happy. It's the father who wasn't. Nancy, sociopathy, the personality disorder of being a sociopath, is essentially a disorder of detachment. Sociopaths are detached from everybody around them, their own children, their parents, their spouses. They don't connect like you or I do. And they have very shallow emotional lives. So they can't just hang out at home with

their children. They always have little side gigs going on affairs, financial misdealings, crimes, habits of pornography. There's always, did you ever see blue velvet where there was this one world that was like bright and shiny, the sun was shining, and at the very last scene, the camera pans to under the front lawn, and there's this whole underbelly of worms and beetles and bugs under the front lawn? Two separate worlds. That's what this family was like. A bright, shiny, loving world, and then a personality disorder dad slash husband who couldn't attach to his family. When we talk about violent crime, it's almost as if we're drinking from a fire hydrant. It's just too much, too fast, too furious.

If you have heard about the murder of Jessica Chambers, don't miss the new docuseries on oxygen, the true story of a teen girl, cheerleader, Mississippi, burned alive. The story of the man now accused of the heinous crime. Is the right guy on trial? Who is he? And who was Jessica Chambers? How does such a horrific crime even occur? More questions than answers. It's a case that has captured national headlines, taken over social media, and has now left

and is leaving a small town divided. It's a must-see TV event with exclusive interviews that take you inside the investigation as the search for answers and justice goes on. Don't miss it. It is Unspeakable Crime, The Killing of Jessica Chambers, Saturdays, 7, 6 Central, on Oxygen, the new network for crime. Guess what, girls? Mommy has a baby in her belly. A baby! Are you guys excited?

Yeah! Yes? Are you really excited? Oh my goodness. Come give me a hug. Oh! Oh! I love you, girl. I got the baby a hug. You want to give give me a hug. Oh. I love you. I got the baby a hug. You want to give the baby a hug? I love you, Bella.

You are hearing Shanann Watts. She's telling her two little baby girls that she is going to have a little baby boy, the unborn child she was carrying at the time she was murdered. Now, I want you to compare that, juxtapose it against her telling the husband. Chris Watts, listen. We did it again. I like that shirt. Really? Really. That's awesome.

So pink means? That's just the test. I know. They they're just the pink is going to be girls i don't know just the test that's awesome guess i guess guess when you want to it happens yeah okay that was a little underwhelming guys you're listening to shenan watts telling her husband chris watts age 33 they're having a third child he's like awesome okay you know ellen killoran sorry but i i got carried away with their perfect life ellen killoran let's take it from the top shenan had been on a business trip and it's my understanding she got home that evening with a friend girl who drove her to the house, who had been out of town with her to the home. She gets in around 1 a.m. ish.

Now, according to the husband, Chris Watts, now suspected in the three murders, they have a quote emotional discussion until 5 a.m. when he leaves for work at an oil field. What happened after that? He says that they were speaking in the early hours of the morning and then he went to work. Later that day, Shanon was supposed to go to a doctor's appointment. She was supposed to meet a friend. None of those things happened. So her friend goes to the home in Frederick, Colorado and realizes that they're not there. Shanon and the girls are not there, and no one knows where they are. Chris initially says that he believes that his wife may have gone on a play date, but he doesn't have any details. He doesn't know the name of the

people. And he continues for a couple of days to claim that he has no idea what happened to his family and goes on TV and begs for their return. Let's take a listen to Chris Watts begging for his wife's return. And it wasn't like her not to answer a phone call or a text. And when her friend Nicole showed up at the door, I was like, all right, something's up. And I came home and it was like I walked into a ghost town. Like everything, she wasn't here. Kids weren't here. It was like, it was just, they were here and then they were gone. Like, Shanann, Bella and Celeste, if you're out there, please just come home. You're hearing Chris Watts begging for his family's return.

That's not at all what was really happening. Ellen Kaloran, what led authorities to an oil field where Watts worked? Well, we'd have to back up for one second because what led them to, I think, question his story was the fact that he had been staying with a couple of friends, neighbors, and they felt that something wasn't quite right. And they called police. And then they questioned Chris Watts and brought him in, obviously starting to believe that the story he was claiming to be true was not at all. And after multiple interviews with police, he initially was not telling the truth, they don't think. But eventually he did tell them where the bodies were.

He led them there and it was the property of the place where he had worked. What we know is that police then go digging at the oil field, and there they find the girls in a vat of crude oil, their dead bodies there, and the wife buried in a shallow grave. To Dr. Jan Gorniak joining us, Fulton County Medical Examiner. Dr. Gorniak, I'm so grateful that you're with us. Putting a body into crude oil, does that preserve it? Does it hasten the decomposing process? What does that do to a child's body? I've never had a body in crude oil before. I can assume that it will hasten the decomposition. It's nothing that's going to preserve it. So freezing will preserve the decomposition. So anybody that's in fluid, any sort of fluid, the body is going to go through changes.

So I believe that the decomposition process will be accelerated. Karen Smith, with the bodies in vats of oil, forensically, what does that mean to you? It means it's going to be an extraordinarily challenging investigation, Nancy. You know, these vats of oil, these two little girls, I don't know if they were wrapped in something when they were placed in there, if they were placed in there with clothes on or without clothes on. We don't have any of that information. So to say that investigators and the medical examiner staff have an unbelievable challenge ahead of them is an understatement. However, there may be, maybe, some forensic evidence left behind

that can be garnered and link these deaths directly to Chris Watts. At this point, we don't have a cause of death, which is, you know, critical to the forensics. And until we have that, it's just speculation at this point. I'm just hoping that, you know, I'm sure they're doing their due diligence and doing everything possible to find out what happened to these two little girls. We know what happened to Shanann. He's confessed to strangling her. But until we have those medical examiner's reports, we're kind of in the wind on that. Judge Lawyer, founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com. We know that his, Chris Watt's, defense team asked for the girls' necks to be swabbed for DNA. What does that tell you, the outside of their necks?

Yeah, it's to talk about strangulation. So here's what's fascinating in this case to me and really bothers me. The defendant in this case says he strangled his wife, right, at some points in time. Then he says, but she strangled the children. Really? You think that because it's just like, oh yeah, you're going to make up. I think he strangled the children. He's going to make up and say the wife strangled the children. So the significance is to find out what DNA is there, because I promise you, Nancy, she did not strangle those children. I promise you he did. His argument is that when he tells her he wants to leave her, she goes in a fit of rage and strangles the children.

Ellen Kaloran, you have been investigating the case. What, if anything, have you learned about his sex affairs? Well, we know that at least one affair has been confirmed by authorities. He was having an affair with a co-worker, something that he initially denied during police questioning. Two other people have come forward. One woman spoke to Raider Online and said that she had an affair with him after meeting him on Tinder. And then another man who Crime Online actually spoke to as well says that he had an affair with Chris Watts for 10 months that ended several months before

the family was killed. So let me understand. We've got a co-worker he's having an affair with, according to the co-worker. You have another woman. I don't know where she's from or how they're co-workers. Oh, it's Tinder. And then you have a man. Now, let me ask you something, Ellen. You've talked to the guy on many occasions. Did he tell you anything he couldn't learn from the internet? Sure. He told me about conversations that he had with Chris about his marriage. He told me that Chris initially denied being married. He said that he was separated and that he eventually figured out that he was married and that Chris did admit to it. And he said that Chris told him that he was in an unhappy marriage, that he was married and that Chris did admit to it. And he said that Chris told him that he was in an unhappy marriage, that he felt insignificant, that Shanon would allegedly

be emotionally abusive to him, and that he felt trapped. Felt insignificant. Take a listen again to his daughter Bella singing Daddy is a Hero. My daddy is a hero. He helps me grow up strong. He helps me um snuggle too. He reads me books. He ties my shoes. If you're a hero, blue and blue, my daddy, daddy, he'd love you. To give you some background, the Frederick Police Department received a missing person call just before 2 p.m. on Monday, August 23, 2018. Our agency launched an investigation conducting interviews, neighborhood canvases, in an effort to locate Shanann and her two girls, Bella and Celeste. We also contacted the FBI and the CBI to assist in this case. In addition to providing investigative agents and crime scene responders, a missing endangered alert was announced on Tuesday afternoon. Frederick PD conducted additional canvases where flyers featuring Shanann, Celeste, and Bella were distributed throughout the evening. Finally, in the late hours of Wednesday evening, the husband, Chris Watts, was taken into custody.

You are hearing from the Colorado Police Sergeant there in Frederick, Ian Albert, on Chris Watts' arrest. And in the last hours, a stunning new development. Although the husband, Chris Watts, has changed his story multiple times, apparently after a heart-to-heart talk with his father behind bars, he makes a full confession. To Ellen Killorn, what do we know? That's right. We know that when Chris Watts was initially interviewed by police,

he wasn't cooperative. But then he said, if you let me talk to my father first, I'll talk to him and then I'll tell you the truth. And he did speak to his father. And we don't know what was said in that conversation. But we do know that after he spoke to him, he went back and he admitted to detectives that he had strangled his pregnant wife, but claimed that he did so in a rage after seeing that she was strangling one of their daughters while another daughter laid limp on her bed next to them. Well, to me, that's not a full confession. Are you saying that he's still saying the wife strangled the little girls? That's right. Nothing has changed.

So I feel that we have been misled. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, the story that he's telling is diametrically opposed to what we know as the evidence. He's still blaming his murdered wife for the deaths of the two girls. What's that about, Dr. Bethany? You know, Nancy, he may be the type of perpetrator who will just continue to lie and lie and lie and will never get the full truth from him. Basically, he's claiming that he's such a great guy, such a wonderful dad, and so special that when he told his wife he wanted to break up with her, that she flew into a rage and started to strangle the girls just to get back at him. I mean, that is such a fantastical story. And that he flew into a rage and strangled her because she was strangling the daughters. I mean,

embedded in this kind of a story is that he's great. He was protecting his daughters. He lost it because the wife was killing the daughters to get back at him. It just doesn't stack up to the kind of family life that you're talking about where she was so attached to her kids. I mean, come on, Ashley Wilcott. It's going to be a cold day in H-E-L-L that this mom comes home from working to support the family. And then she strangles the girls, and he happens to see it on the nanny cam. Oh, yeah. Sorry, Nancy.

It's BS. I mean, wet. And to feel him say, well, I felt, to hear him say, oh, I felt insignificant. I have no patience. I have no tolerance for this entire story, for his half, you know what, confession. He clearly, in my mind, strangled all of them. I do not believe she's working her tail off for those children, for him, for the family. I do not believe that she returned home and strangled them.

To Karen Smith, what about the possibility of evidence under the little girl's fingernails? Under their nails, do you think there's any chance we're going to get his DNA? Yes, there's always a chance, Nancy. And you know what? I'm right with Ashley on this. My patience for this case is at its limit. And, you know, as a forensic investigator, I'm supposed to remain unbiased. But in the face of all of this, in the face of all of the evidence, it points right to Chris Watts. And there are a couple of opportunities that investigators have here, not only the fingernails of Celeste and Bella, but if they're asking for DNA swabs of the necks, there's a reason for that. Either the children were wrapped before they were placed in the barrels and there

is a chance that there is DNA on their necks. Or, you know, depending on the decomposition process, you're dealing with possible deep bruising that may be available in photographs using UV light or IR lighting, and that can show hand size. That's a possibility. And, you know, I've also heard rumors that there may be, and this is kind of a stretch, but there may be an opportunity to use what's called superglue fuming on their necks to find out if there's any what we call ridge detail left from the perpetrator on the skin. Now, after four days, that may be a very remote possibility, but the possibility still exists. So if investigators are using all of these tools, it is really my hope that all of those clues lead right back to Chris Watts, right where it belongs. Explain to those that are not familiar with the super glue fuming, how does it work? It's kind of a complicated process. It started back in the 90s with some experiments by Ivan Futrell and Art Bohannon of the Knoxville Police Department, Ivan Futrell from the FBI. They took cadavers and they did experiments placing their fingerprints

on the skin of these cadavers. And what they did is they used what's called super glue. And they use a fuming method. They would put a tent over the body and put some drops of literal super glue onto a warming plate and it creates fumes. It disperses itself into this tent and it will settle on the ridge detail of the fingerprints on the skin. Now, again, it's a very complex process and it doesn't always work. There's very few possibilities for this to happen. However, if those ridge details are available on the necks of these children after they do this process, then there's the possibility of enhancing those fingerprints using powders and the possibility of them sending them off to a latent print examiner to see if we can compare them to Chris Watts' known print. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, not only are we taking calls at 909-49-CRIME, we're getting a ton of Facebook messages.

And here's one from Fruit Loop, who I would love to meet. On the video, Shea Shanann tells Chris Watts they're expecting. Why doesn't anyone talk about his narcissistic reaction when he says, quote, when you want it, you. Fruit Loop says he's placing blame on her. And also, why is she doing all these videos to praise him? It seems like a narcissistic hold he has on her, playing on her illness, which I believe she had lupus.

Well, I think that's very insightful of Fruit Loop because women who are in relationships with sociopaths or pathological narcissists do tend to always try to fluff them up, to inflate them, to make them feel better. And we know this idea of like, well, when you want it, you get it. I don't hear that as blaming her. I hear that as a trite, rehearsed, stereotyped statement that doesn't really mean anything at all. And sociopaths, because they have such a shallow emotional life, they tend to talk this way. They use trite, rehearsed sayings because they're really not feeling anything at all. He wasn't excited that she was pregnant. I mean, he put his daughters in vats of oil. He does not love this family. So I hear just very flat affect and complete disinterest

in the pregnancy. A lot of you know my part of my story, my health challenges, bad relationships, things that could have knocked somebody down completely hardcore. But the thing is, is I believe that everything in life happens for a reason. And I also believe people are placed in our life for a reason. You're hearing Shanann Watts talking about meeting her husband as she battled her lupus. You know, Dr. Bethany and Ellen Killorn with me, Karen Smith and Dr. Jan Gorniak. The most recent development is that triple murder suspect Chris Watts is now trying to keep secret his visitors behind bars. Now, as of right now, the judge, Marcelo Kopkow, has ruled against the motion. But he is claiming, Chris Watts is claiming that the guests he has, his visitors behind bars, will reveal a, quote, crucial element in his legal representation. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, why the cloak and dagger?

Why is he filing a motion to keep secret all of his visitors behind bars? I've never heard that. That's public record. I call this the Casey Anthony syndrome. You remember when she was behind bars, she kept pressuring her mother to get in touch with her boyfriend. Even when she was incarcerated, she was much more interested in her love life than in the fact that her little girl was missing. And the fact that Chris Watts wants his visitors to be kept secret.

I keep wondering who are all these people out there that he might be having affairs with. He might be trying to pursue that he's trying to continue some side hustle with, even though his wife and daughter are dead. He's still more invested in his own life. And also this whole thing of like, she made me do it, like the dog ate my paper, that kind of thing, you know, blaming another person. I hear all of this is just continued attempts to cover up all of his motivations instead of to be transparent. He'll never be transparent. It'll be one lie after another. Another possibility as to why he is keeping, wants to keep all of his visitors a secret, which is public record to Dr. Jan Gorniak, Fulton County Medical Examiner. I recall every time I had a homicide, I would have to go visit. I didn't have to. I would because I wanted to go visit the

medical examiner to go through every single line of the autopsy report so I could understand it in plain English, not medical terms, to convey it to a jury. I wonder if he is working with an expert, much as I'm describing right now, to try to find a way out of these murders. Well, it's a possibility. And I think it's a great idea that prosecutors and even defense attorneys meet with the medical examiner to, one, know what the injuries were, how they could have occurred. Is it consistent with this, consistent with that? And also know what we're going to say when we're on the stand. So knowing exactly how injuries could occur is very important. So I can understand if the defense side is working with the medical examiner just to know what injuries there were and how, or there's another

way they could have occurred. So you have this story, but is it consistent with this doctor? And we could also say yes. So in a way, that could help the defense side also. In the last hours, triple murder suspect Chris Watts unsuccessfully seeks to keep secret his visitation list in the jail. Judge, Judge Marcelo Kopkow, has just ruled against the motion from Watts' lawyers requesting the sheriffs at the jail to be barred from disclosing information about visits to him in Colorado's Weald County Jail. Now, we all know that Watts is 33 years old and he's been there since he was arrested in the murders of his pregnant wife and his two daughters now in the decision judge cop cow though he does describe confidentiality and loyalty of people that work with the defense team nonetheless he denies the request, it's because it's a public record. Instead of ordering the visitation logs being secret, he instructed the prosecution move to review the logs as necessary with the defense being able to seek redactions. So I'm not sure exactly how the judge is landing on this. It

sounds like he's redacting possibly the experts that come to visit behind bars while keeping everything else public. Very, very unusual move to Ellen Kaloran. Do we have any idea where his defense is headed? Well, one thing that we could possibly look at is the fact, as one of the panelists was saying, who's coming to visit him and why does he want to keep that a secret? When Crime Online spoke to the man who had an affair with, who claims to have had an affair with Chris Watts, he said that prosecutors have wanted and the defense team have been wanting to talk to him. And he told me that he didn't want to talk to any authorities without Chris Watts being present because he wanted both of them to be in the same place because he felt that Chris would try and lie

and misrepresent the situation. Now that's pure speculation, but it seems like it's one possibility because up until very recently, reports had been saying that Chris Watts wasn't taking many visitors at all. So why the sudden secrecy? Who came out of the woodwork? Another development that we're getting in the last hours, and this goes to you, Karen Smith, a forensics expert, when the bodies of Shanann Watts and the two little girls were discovered at that Colorado oil field, police found something reportedly on the scene that might further link the deaths to Shanann's husband. It was a bag with a possible footprint, according to a prosecution motion that we have obtained. Now, in that motion, the state is asking to take a print of Chris Watts' bare feet

to determine if his footprint matches what is on the bag. It makes me think that the bag must have somehow gotten entangled with the bodies in the home because why would he be barefoot at an oil field karen smith how's this going to work that's a great question that's the first i've heard of that it has to have come from the home i mean we we know that he took the bodies to the oil field we know that that's where they placed. So if this came from the home and he was barefoot at the time, you know, I don't know. You know, these are the questions that I have. Was it a bloody print? Was it a latent footprint, which means invisible until it's enhanced? And I'm not quite sure how that would play into the scene unless it came from the daughter's room, unless it came from an area of the house

that was remote from Shanann at the time? That's a great question. I'll look forward to see how that plays out. With me, Dr. Bethany Marshall, Dr. Jan Gorniak, Karen Smith, and Ellen Kaloran. Ellen, prosecutors claim he murdered his family when his wife got back from a business trip, but now evidence is also emerging that he may have already killed the two little girls and that shenan comes in and finds them dead he had been with them for the entire weekend taking care of them they were little little with a lot of demands a lot of uh feeding and caring for two little girls that age. Did he just lose it, taking care of the little girls and kill them, Ellen? I mean, obviously he didn't want to be

in a marriage to start with. Now he's got another baby on the way. Well, exactly. That explanation that the little girls died before Shadon even got home is certainly a lot more plausible than the claims that he made that that mother who loved her little girl so much would hurt them in any way. There was a very short time between when Shannon came home and when he took them to an oil field and buried their bodies, just a few hours. So it certainly seems more than reasonable that investigators would be looking at the possibility that those little girls were already dead when their mother got home. The forensic evidence in the investigation unfolding rapidly, and we wait as justice

unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.