Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Boy, 12, Dead After Just 24 Hours at Wilderness Boot Camp, Found Without Pants

Episode Date: March 8, 2024

The parents of a 12-year-old boy think Trails Carolina might be just the place to help their son. Trails Carolina claims to be a Leader in Wilderness Therapy offering an Adventure Wilderness Program for children who have behavioral and or emotional difficulties. The parents say their boy is transported by two men from New York to Trails Carolina Camp at Lake Toxaway, North Carolina. Their son arrives at the camp in an agitated state. The 12-year-old is loud and disruptive, but he is assigned to a cabin with other children as well as four adults.  In less than 24 hours, the 12-year-old boy from New York is dead. Sheriff Chuck Owenby says an autopsy is being conducted because the death "appeared suspicious" since the boy died at the camp less than 24 hours after he arrived. A counselor explained to investigators that the boy was required to sleep on the floor inside a sleeping bag. The sleeping bag is inside a small tent called a "BIVY." According to search warrant documents, around midnight the boy started to experience a panic attack. After the panic attack, a counselor told investigators that the boy was checked on throughout the night starting at 12 a.m., with additional checks on his well-being at 3 a.m. and 6 a.m.  At 7:45 a.m., the boy was found dead.  According to the search warrant, when investigators arrived at the scene, CJH was stiff and "cold to the touch." He was lying on his back, his arms were on his chest, and his "knees bent upwards toward the sky." Also in the search warrant, investigators noted spots of bleeding under the skin, "possible petechiae" in the boy's lips and eyes. This is considered a sign of asphyxiation. The warrant also notes a CPR mask was covering the boy's face and he was not wearing any pants or underwear. His pants and underwear were lying next to his shoulder Early in the investigation, detectives with the Transylvania County Sheriff's Office attempted to interview other juveniles at Trails Carolina when the boy died. However, camp staff members refused to allow investigators to interview or even see any of the other juveniles. Trails Carolina says the search warrant contains "misleading statements" saying they won't discuss some details "out of respect for the family and the investigation."  In a statement, Trails Carolina says they did not prevent children from speaking to investigators claiming they asked parents for permission for any children involved to speak with law enforcement and state agencies, and "complied with each parent's preference. as we are required to do." Children were moved to the area to protect them from seeing what was happening, not to avoid investigators. In response to the recent suspicious death of a 12-year-old at Trails Carolina, North Carolina health officials ordered the removal of all children from the nature therapy program. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Gertie - Victim of sexual assault at Trails Carolina, Survivor of the troubled teen industry, TikTok: @this.is.me.surviving2 Jenkins Mann, Esq. - Attorney Representing Sexual Assault Victims of Trail Carolina Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills, CA); Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall; X: @DrBethanyLive  Eric J. Davis -  Private Investigator, Licensed in NC and SC; Retired FBI Supervisory Special Agent, and Partner at Richardson & Davis Investigative Consulting Group, LLC Dr. Todd Barr -  Board-Certified Anatomic/Clinical/Forensic Pathologist  Meg Appelgate - Co-founder and CEO of Unsilenced; Victim of the troubled teen industry and advocate for survivors; TikTok and IG: @megappelgate, TikTok and IG: Unsilenced_now   Nick Ochsner -  Executive Producer & Chief Investigative Reporter, WBTV; Has been investigating Trails Carolina since May 2021   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Did you ever go away to camp? I did 4-H camp and I got to go between fifth grade and sixth grade. It was one week. It was the biggest thing that happened to me in rural Bibb County. It was very well supervised. I had a great time and excelled in tree identification. Explain to me why a 12-year-old boy is dead after roughly one day, not even one day at camp. Now, there are reports this 12-year-old little boy had a panic attack. Really? Now, I'm just a JD. I'm not an MD. But as far as I know, a panic attack does wellness camp in North Carolina, we find out there have been multiple claims of sex assault on children.

Children, you know, my parents worked so hard. My mom is a bank teller working her way up the ladder. My dad working a night shift for the railroad. They had to work hard just to pay for 4-H camp. And I remember it was $36 and something cents. Yes, that had to be taken out of the grocery money. I remember it happening. So I could go to 4-H camp. You send your children to camp and you think

you're doing something good for them, giving them enrichment, making new friends, going for wellness. This boy is dead and I want answers, not a bunch of BS about a panic attack. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111. First of all, what do we know happened? Listen. The Transylvania County Sheriff's Office said when they arrived at Trails Carolina for an unresponsive participant, medics found evidence that CPR had been performed,

but the child appeared deceased for some time. But now, in an odd twist of trust, the wilderness therapy camp in North Carolina is refusing to allow investigators to talk to staff or juveniles present when the 12-year-old died. According to a search warrant, the boy suffered a panic attack the night he arrived at the camp,

and the next morning he was found cold, stiff, and frothing at the mouth. Not being able to talk to staff or campers, it is unclear what caused the boy to present with frothing from the mouth. According to an affidavit from the detective that got the search warrant, froth about the mouth could indicate he ingested some sort of poison. Guys, I have an all-star panel to make sense of what we are learning right now, including a young woman who went as a child to Trails, Carolina. She's going to tell us about her experience. But why all the focus on the camp now that a little

boy is dead oh yeah i would have to go burn the place down if something happened to my child after i send them to camp but i'm trying to understand something um first straight out to nick oxnard executive producer chief investigative reporter, WBTV. He has been investigating Trails Carolina since 2021. Kind of hate to ask why since 2021. I'm sure I'm going to get to that. But first, Nick Oxnard, thank you for being with us. How is this place built?

I know it's a North Carolina wellness camp. And for anybody that can't see me, you can only hear me. Don't worry. I'm doing air quotas because there's nothing well about this where a 12 year old boy died. Now we're learning it's more like a cruel boot camp. Well, so this camp, this camp is billed as a wilderness therapy camp. And so in theory, parents send their children there to get therapy and address maybe mental health or behavioral issues. I've interviewed a number of people who attended this camp over a number of years now. And one of the last questions I ask every person who went there is, did you get much therapy? And the best

I can tell is this camp provides about 30 minutes to an hour of therapy about once a week. Okay, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. You know, Nick Ochsner, you got me drinking from the fire hot tub because every other word you say, I'm trying to write it down very quickly. Nick Ochsner joining us, chief investigative reporter and an EP at WBTV. Curious, why did you start investigating this so-called wellness camp in North Carolina in 2021? What led you there in 2021? Yeah, I got a call from a concerned parent who was looking at sending their child there and started doing some research and said, we have some questions about this place. And so it got on my radar.

And then I learned that a child had died at this facility or in this program back in 2014, a 17-year-old. And it piqued my interest even more. And then the more we started talking to folks, the more it was clear that there was a story here. You know, I'm very curious about the teen boy. I believe you're referring to Alec Lansing. Is that correct? Yes. So is he the teen boy that left the campground and somehow ended up in a creek? Yeah. He had an accident and then landed in the creek. I think he was climbing a tree and landed in the creek

and he died of hypothermia. Is that Alec Lansing? That is. That's Alec Lansing. Yeah, I got a big question about that too, Nick Ochsner. Because it takes a minute to die of hypothermia.

You don't just fall into the creek and die. It takes time. So how long was it that they didn't notice a teen boy was missing and how far was his body found from the camp do you know that yeah well and that's the thing at the time that was another when i started looking into it that made my eyebrow go up right is that the sheriff's office at the time Alec Lansing went missing and was ultimately found dead, they said, look, had the camp called us as soon as they knew he was

gone and we started a search right away, we probably would have been able to find him. Instead, they waited, you know, 12, 18 hours before calling 911. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. That's making me sick to my stomach because I don't know if you know Nick Oxner, but my children just turned 16 and they are babes in the woods. They, you know, maybe I've kept them in a bubble too much, but to think this boy, this teen boy was out there in that cold creek water for that long and nobody called the sheriff oh yeah now I see why you were on the story guys I want to get back to the 12 year old that was found cold and I think stiff which is an issue for the medical examiner because that would give me time of death which is really important in reconstruct medical examiner because that would give me time of death,

which is really important in reconstructing what happens. We're not getting any cooperation from the camp, but I want to go to Gertie. Gertie is a special guest joining us. Gertie was assaulted. This is her story. I have no reason to disbelieve it. At Trails, Carolina. I also want to go to Dr. Bethany Marshall to explain to me.

She's a renowned psychoanalyst joining us out of L.A., Beverly Hills. What is therapy camp? Because if these children are getting one hour max, 30 minutes to an hour of therapy a week, that doesn't sound like therapy camp to me. But that said, Dr. Bethany, before I go to Gertie, set it up for me. Dr. Bethany at drbethanymarshall.com. What is therapy camp? Why would you send your 12 year old boy to therapy camp? I'm not second-guessing the parents because we actually have a friend, Dr. Bethany, that sent their daughter to a therapy camp, not this therapy camp. It turned her life around, and I'd like to report she's doing very well her freshman year at college right now, and we went through a lot with that family. They went

through hell trying to figure out how to help their daughter. And this one therapy camp they went to, she went to, really helped her. But this doesn't sound anything like that to me. You know, Nancy, probably the therapy camp, or most likely called wilderness camp, they sent their daughter to had a lot of oversight, trained clinicians, people coming in and out. But wilderness camp, which is what this was, is where parents send their children when all other forms of treatment have failed. Say they've sent their children to an inpatient psychiatric facility, to group therapy, to an individual therapist, to family therapy, and the child is still experiencing profound deficits, either from learning disorders, psychiatric difficulties, social difficulties. Okay, Bethany, I believe we've discussed when you're talking to me, you need to dummy down. Okay, I'm just a JD. They didn't teach any of this in law school, either at Mercer

University or when I got my LLM at NYU. Nobody said anything about anything you just said. Please talk regular people. Talk Dr. Bethany. Let's say you have a child with psychological difficulties. Nothing seems to help. You send them away to a camp that's in the wild, hoping, as you said earlier, like your 4-H camp, that they will have loving adults around them. They will go hiking, and while they're hiking, they'll be talking to a therapist or sitting by a lake and then talking to another therapist and processing everything and they'll come back better. But while your friend had a great experience at her camp, most of these camps have no oversight. They are just a group of people in a profit-making setting who take kids for quote-unquote therapy,

but often it becomes a culture of abuse. And Nancy, let me tell you how they get these kids to the camp. They go and they kidnap them. Oh, Dr. Bethany, I noticed when I was studying the case that, and Nick Oxner, back me up, I don't know if this is correct or not, but two men, what men, took the 12-year-old to the camp all the way from New York to North Carolina? What men? I couldn't get clear on that. Is it somebody envoys that the camp sends to, as Dr. Bethany says, take the child? Yeah, it's a practice called or referred to as gooning.

And basically you hire two people to show up in the middle of the night. I know this from talking to several of the former participants that I've interviewed. These kids get woken up basically in the middle of the night by two strangers who, you know, basically drag them out of their house and put them on an airplane. And the next thing you know, you're in the woods of North Carolina. Hey, Nancy, can I say something about that? I just... Yeah, because I want to get to Gertie real quick. Okay. Very quickly, I worked with Paris Hilton on her new show. So this is not privileged material. This is made public that she was kidnapped and taken to one of these camps, as we all know,

and suffered extreme abuse while in the camp. But she told me that she's sleeping in the middle of the night. Two people come in. They're all dressed in black. They kidnap her. She starts screaming, my parents are going to find me. My parents are going to find me. You're going to go to jail. She looks over her shoulder and her parents are standing in the hallway watching the whole thing play out okay i just wish you could see dr bethany everybody here in the studio there's ely there's jamie there's sid and they're all like and you you just gave me chills over my whole body body. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

I want to go to Gertie now. Gertie. Hi, Nancy. Hey, love. Gertie explains to me that she is a sex assault victim and the assault occurred at Trails Carolina. I refer to her as a survivor. A survivor who's telling you her story. So maybe just maybe this won't happen to another child. Gertie, what happened? Can we start with who took you to Trails Carolina? I was transported to Trails Carolina by two transporters.

They didn't take me in the middle of the night, but I had no idea that they were going to be at my house. What happened? Tell me what happened. My mom told me that there were two people who wanted to talk to me. And I went downstairs with her. And they told me that I was going to a summer camp. And that I would be gone for no more than a week. And then I packed a bag and got in their car. I understand why a lot of parents have difficulty getting their child to camp because the child, of course, doesn't want to go. Then they'll start screaming and throwing a fit,

maybe physically fighting with the parent. But the scenario that Dr. Bethany Marshall correctly described, as has been told by Parents Hilton, sounds forcible like a scary kidnap. Gertie, what happened when you got to? The transporters handed me off to two new staff and they brought me to a building where I was strip searched. Okay, let me just say right there, nobody strip searched me when I went to 4-H camp. Nobody strip searched me when I went to a real summer camp either. How did that go down? They told me that I had to take my clothes off and I didn't know what to think. I was kind of frozen in shock. I figured, I mean, I'm going home in a week.

I'll call my parents as soon as this is over. I'll just get it over with. But then I wasn't allowed to call my parents at all the entire time I was there. And it wasn't a week. I was at trails for three months. Were you getting therapy while you were there? I met with a therapist once a week, but from what I experienced with that therapist, I would not call it legitimate therapy. You have described to us that you were sex assaulted. What

happened? One of the other kids in my group had sexually assaulted two other kids before me. And the staff and my therapist knew that this had happened. And they did not separate us from the kid who was doing this. And I was very scared of this kid. I told them that I told them that I didn't feel safe at trails, and they assigned me to sleep next to her. I don't want to go too far into detail about it. with several, multiple trail survivors. Gertie's was the second lawsuit I filed with almost an identical fact pattern to the first lawsuit I filed, which involved my niece. And I've had probably 10 conversations since then

with various girls who have had an experience so similar, it's almost eerie. You're hearing Jenkins Mann, high-profile lawyer, joining us out of Columbia, South Carolina, representing victims of Trail Carolina. It's Jenkins Mann, and you can find him at mannblake.com. So Jenkins, Gertie, and your niece are by far not the only young girls who have stated they were sex assaulted at Trails Carolina. No, absolutely not.

And, you know, as Dr. Bethany said, and contrasting your 4-H camp experience with what these kids have gone through, I mean, these camps are designed to humiliate you. What Gertie's not telling you is that not only is she strip searched the moment she gets there, but she is forced to squat and cough while naked in front of 21-year-old field staff that has no counseling training whatsoever. These are just kids who get a little training on the job there and are in no way counselors or watching these girls and boys squat and cough naked. And it just goes from there. These camps are designed to humiliate you, to break you down, to take you to your lowest, and then in some sick, perverse way, hoping to build you back up better and stronger, but again, without any real therapy or any real guidance to do any of that. Nancy, if I could just interject, in a proper psychiatric facility, the initial session is with a psychiatrist where the child is evaluated psychiatrically. When they're admitted, every child has their own room. There are lights in the

hallway. Nurses with white uniforms check all night long. The only time they're with the other kids is while they're doing some recreation or in group therapy. That's it. And then other professionals are coming in all the time making notes in their chart. This is such a deviation from that and such a culture of abuse. And we have only got to the tip of the iceberg. Remember, we're here today about a 12-year-old little boy, 12, fifth grade, that is dead. Guys, I want you to take a listen to our friend Sydney Sumner from Crime Online. The parents of a 12-year-old boy think Trails Carolina might be just the place to help their son. Trails Carolina claims to be a leader in wilderness therapy, offering an adventure wilderness program for children who have behavioral and or emotional difficulties. The parents say their boy is transported by two men from New York to Trails Carolina camp at Lake Toxaway,

North Carolina. Their son arrives at the camp in an agitated state. The 12-year-old is loud and disruptive, but he is assigned to a cabin with other children as well as four adults. In less than 24 hours, the 12-year-old boy is dead. Sheriff Chuck Owenby says an autopsy is being conducted because the death appeared suspicious since the boy died at the camp less than 24 hours after he arrived. And what are we learning about the condition of the boy's body? Listen. Investigators have yet to name the 12-year-old that died at Trails Carolina, referring to him by the initials CJH. An unidentified camp counselor told investigators that C.J.H. was loud and irate when he first arrived at the camp and he refused to eat dinner. The boy calmed down later in the evening and the counselor was able to provide him with some snacks that the boy ate. The counselor explained to investigators that the boy was required to sleep on the floor inside a sleeping bag. The sleeping

bag is inside a small tent called a bivy. According to search warrant documents, around midnight the boy started to experience a panic attack. Two counselors stood nearby while the boy was experiencing the panic attack, but the counselor made no mention of anything being done to directly help the boy through the panic attack. No, that's not what I'm talking about. Listen to this. After the 12-year-old has a panic attack around midnight, a counselor told investigators that the boy was checked on throughout the night, starting at 12 a.m., with additional checks on his well-being at 3 a.m. and 6 a.m. At 7.45 a.m., the boy is found dead.

According to the search warrant, when investigators arrived on scene, C.J.H. was stiff and cold to the touch. He was lying on his back, his arms were on his chest, and his knees bent upward towards the sky. Also in the search warrant, investigators noted spots of bleeding under the skin, possible petechia on the boy's lips and eyes. The CPR mask was covering the boy's face, and he was not mask was covering the boy's face and he was not wearing pants or underwear. His pants and underwear were lying next to his shoulder. No, no, everything you just heard is wrong. I'm not saying the facts are not correct. The facts are correct, but that is not consistent with death by a panic attack. No. Joining me, Dr. Todd Barr, board certified

anatomic clinical and forensic pathologist. Dr. Barr, help me explain how wrong that scenario is. It is not compatible at all with a panic attack, which means ergo somebody's lying, which means there's something nefarious occurring right now. Why lie about it? Unless you're covering something up, Dr. Barr. Well, yeah, there's a lot of inconsistencies with these reports. Number one, my biggest concern is that when they state that they found him cold and stiff, cold and stiff means that the body's been dead for anywhere between eight and 36 hours. You don't get cold and stiff in an hour and 45 minutes.

If he was checked on at 6 a.m. as it was reported, he should not be cold and stiff. If he was dead, he would be flaccid. Rigor mortis doesn't set in for at least two hours after death. Now, a caveat is if you're in a cold environment, that slows the process down even more. So it's an even slower process. And I would imagine in North Carolina in February, the temperatures were probably in the 40s that night. Could you get that for me, Jamie? The temp on that night, the night that CJH died at Lake Talks Away.

Go ahead, doctor. Thank you. If he was cold and stiff at 7.45 a.m. as it was reported, then that means he had to have been dead at midnight when he was, quote unquote, having a panic attack. Oh, let me clear something up. Nick Ochsner joining us, WBTV. Was he cold and stiff when LA law enforcement got there? Or was he cold and stiff when counselors found him?

And how long was the delay, if any, when they called sheriff? Because you were telling me about Alec Lansing, how sheriffs weren't called for at least 12 plus hours. How long did it take them upon discovery of C.J.H.'s dead body did they call sheriffs? Well, that's why I think the detail about Alec Lansing's death and the delay is important here, Nancy. We only know what he was like when he was found by first responders where they said rigor mortis had already set it. He was cold and stiff we don't actually have a clear understanding of when or a clear answer to when he was actually discovered by camp counselors yet because again we have two facts here that don't really square based on what the doctor is telling us right we know that he was in rigor mortis by the time first

responders show up about 7 45 8 a.m But we also have camp counselors saying they checked on him at midnight, 3 a.m. and 6 a.m. And hopefully what we get after the investigation is an explanation on how those two facts can square. That is a lie. They don't square. Counselors cannot check on him and he'd be alive at 6 a.m. I believe it was 6 a.m. They said they checked on Sid and then he'd be in full rigor and cold to the touch at 745. That's impossible. And Nick Oxney, you're telling me that's when LA or first responders, law enforcement or first responders got there at 745, which means counselors had to find him before that. He could not, Dr. Todd Barr, be in full

rigor in less than an hour and a half if they checked on him at six. There's no way. It's just not, it's physiologically impossible. 28 degrees, doc, 28 degrees that morning. You know, and here's another interesting, you know, I don't know what the frothing is all about. You can get pulmonary edema from hypothermia, from drowning, heart failure. There you go again. Pulmonary edema. What's that? That's when your lungs fill up with fluid after you die and you get frothing of the mouth. That's still inconsistent, doctor. That takes a period of time for pulmonary edema to occur, number one, and two, for it to go up your throat and come out of your mouth and nose. That takes additional time.

It's not going to happen in an hour and a half. No, you're absolutely right. And when I was preparing for today, I was reading some of the materials sent to us, and it says one of the staff members reportedly told detectives that he was cold to the touch and stiff. So I'm assuming that is one of the camp staff members that found him dead at 745. So they're reporting to the detectives they found him cold to the touch and stiff at 745. It just doesn't jive. Somebody is lying.

I think I know who. But that said, Eric Davis joining me out of this jurisdiction, an expert private investigator, retired FBI special agent. OK, that says it all right there. Partner at Richardson and Davis investigative consulting group. That's a mouthful. You can find me at richardsonanddavis.com. Eric, thank you for being with us. Okay, how do I figure out who's lying?

I don't think it's the medical examiner. I don't think it's the EMTs. They don't have a dog in the fight, no skin in the game. They arrive and this is what they found. And I know for a fact that rigor stiffening of the limbs doesn't happen. And this is in the light most favorable to the camp. If he was dead they check on him at six and he dies at 601 okay which did not happen he still wouldn't be in rigor at 745 that's a lie they found him and he was dead at 601 it would take a minimum of six to eight hours to get into full rigor that would take us into one or two in the afternoon what about his underwear and his PJs?

Totally off his body, up around his head. That's my question, Nancy. What's going on there? What's he doing in a bivvy tent with no pants on, no underwear on? All the prior incidents of sexual abuse or at least alleged sexual abuse. Why is he in this bivvy tent, zipped up in a bivvy tent? That's another question I have. It's going to make it really hard for the camp counselors to observe what's

going on with him, be zipped up in a bivvy tent. Is that some sort of punishment? I mean, why is he in this bivvy tent? We've done a lot of investigations, and I have over 60 experience surveys filled out, and one of the most common things that I've heard is something they called burritoing, and it's when they're wrapped in a tarp so tight that many of them report that they can't breathe. And that's the first thing that came to mind for me. Guys, you're hearing Meg Applegate. She is co-founder and CEO of Unsilenced, Victim of the Troubled Teen Industry, and Advocate for Survivors at unsilenced.org. Eric, I'm going to circle back to you.

Meg Applegate, this is your bailiwick. Jump in. Yeah, I mean, I've spoke to countless victims, and one of the most common things I'm hearing is this burrito, and many are reporting that for the first week or so, they're required to hearing is this burrito. And many are reporting that for the first week or so, they're required to be in this burrito. And they basically take a tarp, which is mentioned in the report, which is what triggered me thinking about this. And they are wrapped up so tight. And then they usually have a staff member sleep on one side of the tarp. And the point of this

is to ensure they don't try to run away. And any kind of movement will obviously wake up the staff. Okay, question. Hold on. Dr. Bethany Marshall, how does that help a troubled teen not to be able? You know, when the twins came home from NICU, the nurses said you're supposed to wrap them really tight, swaddle them. And they were really not happy with that. I couldn't stand by to see them swaddled tightly. So I would immediately unswaddle them and they were really not happy with that. I couldn't stand by to see them swaddled tightly so I would immediately unswaddle them. Why would you do that to a teen? Nancy they're

trying to keep him from running away just as Meg just said but it gets worse. What they probably did was strip him and did not allow him to have pajamas so he was naked from the waist down to keep him from running away. He probably had to have clothing from the waist up i don't know anything about them stripping him at night uh gurney did that happen to you at trails carolina did they make you sleep half clothed no okay yeah it's been reported to me by x staff that apparently it is required for them to be in clothes at all times. You can't even be in boxers or without your shirt. So that's what's been reported to me by ex-staff members that have come forward. Oxnard, jump in. Do you know anything? No, that is a question that has

another question that we still are trying to get answers to. Yeah, I've never heard of that being a technique at any of these wilderness camps where you are forced to take your clothes off to go to sleep. Jenkins, man, I think I heard you jumping in. Yeah, I was just going to say, unfortunately, as horrific as all this is, we shouldn't and can't be surprised by any of it. It's exactly what they did with Alec Lansing when they waited all those hours to contact the police. North Carolina is a mandatory reporter state. And in neither Gertie's instance, nor Clara's instance, nor any instance that I'm able to find,

have they ever reported any of the sexual abuse that occurred to these girls, to these children at the camp. We shouldn't be at all surprised, unfortunately, that they clearly waited a period of hours and hours and hours before reporting what happened to CJH. And they do it because it's a cloak of secrecy. They have this complete cloak of secrecy where they don't want any regulation, they don't want any oversight, and they do anything and everything they can to keep what they're doing from light of day. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Another survivor of this camp, Trails Carolina, Catherine Riley, says that she was taken from her home,

much as Gertie was, much as this little boy was, that she was not allowed to shower for 17 days. Another survivor claims that he had defecated in his pants and was forced to wear the same pair of pants for two weeks. Back to Eric Davis, PI in this jurisdiction. I wonder, and tell me, Jenkins Manning, Nick Ochsner, do you know if a rape kit was performed on this child? It should have been. It would have been standard. It should have been, especially if he's found with his pants down. Off pants and underwear, off lying by his head. Right. In North Carolina, you're probably not going to get the toxicology reports for up to a month, and it could be longer for the medical examiner's final report.

So what you got is basically the word of the detectives coming from, you know, what the ME told the detectives. Right. But I have so many questions. I mean, the way you're going to figure out who's lying is you've got to interview all these people. You've got to interview anyone who was there. You've got to interview all the staff, and you've got to interview all these people. You got to interview all anyone who was there. You got to interview all the staff and you got to interview past people. They're not allowed. They would not allow LA law enforcement to interview the other juveniles. Listen to Sydney Sumner. Early in the investigation, detectives with the Transylvania County Sheriff's Office attempt to interview

juveniles at Trails Carolina when the boy died. However, camp staff members refused to allow investigators to interview or even see any of the other juveniles. Trails Carolina says the search warrant contains misleading statements saying they won't discuss some details out of respect for the family and the investigation. In a statement, Trails Carolina says they did not prevent children from speaking to investigators, claiming they asked parents for permission for any children involved to speak with law enforcement and state agencies, and quote, we complied with each parent's preference as we are required to do. Children were moved from the area to protect them from seeing what was happening, not to avoid investigators. I'm very curious, is Eric Davis in a potential homicide. Can juvenile witnesses be disallowed for speaking to sheriffs or EMTs? Not by the camp, but they are juveniles. So in North Carolina,

you would need their parents' permission. But the law enforcement should be getting that permission directly from the parents. So in other words, the kid can't consent to an interview without their parents' permission, but it sounds like the camp's asserting that on their behalf. But yeah, they need to be able to talk to the kids, obviously. You got to talk to the witnesses who are there, who is in the bunk with them. In all my years prosecuting, I never had a parent disallow me to speak to a child witness. Never. Correct. I find it very unusual that no parent allowed their child to speak to law enforcement in light of a potential homicide. I want to go back to Gertie, a survivor of sex assault at Trails Carolina.

Gertie, do you believe you're the only victim? I can't speculate on what happened when I wasn't at Trails, but I do believe the survivors who I've spoken to since I was at Trails, and I believe the other two kids who were assaulted at Trails in the same group as me before I was assaulted. To you, Jenkins Mann, high-profile lawyer representing victims of Trail Carolina, how many victims are you representing, excuse me, alleged victims are you representing right now? Right now we've got six.

Were they all sex assault victims? All of them sex assault victims. All of them with prior notice to Trails Carolina before it happened. One of them assaulted by a staff member. Nick Oxner joining us, WBTV. How much does this camp cost parents? Upwards of $10,000 a month. So this is not a cheap thing and it's not covered by insurance.

And typically, from what I understand, my reporting showed that kids are there for about three months. Nancy, can I interject about that? Yes. Well, my wealthy clients, wealthy patients in Beverly Hills, often these camps are vying to kidnap the kids and take them because it's so lucrative. So one mother said, well, they said they'd take him for $9,000, but this other person offered to take my child for $20,000. So there's this kind of like extortion almost from the very beginning against the child's mental health. Yeah, and I would just interject, I think it's significantly more expensive than Nick is saying. I think it's closer almost to $30,000 a month.

Gertie, how long were you at Trails? I was there for three months. I think it was exactly 83 or 84 days that I was in their program. I don't know how much it cost. I was there in 2016, so it would have been less than it is now. But I know that my parents couldn't afford it by themselves and they needed my grandparents' help to pay for it. And that's also not counting the usually the therapeutic boarding schools they recommend after wilderness programs as well. How did your parents react when you told them you had been sex assaulted? They were horrified. My mom the other day told me that my therapist completely duped her, my therapist at Trails.

I'm thinking through everything that we're hearing. I want to go back to Meg Applegate, co-founder, CEO of Unsilenced. Meg, what happened to you? Well, pretty much what you heard. I was woken up in the middle of the night. The two strangers told me we're going to do this the easy way or the hard way. And they told me the hard way involved handcuffs. So I went along, put me in the back of an SUV, drove me off, and I went to end up in two different programs for the course of three and a half years. Nick Oxner, it just seems so incredible to me that the lies here are so obvious, yet no criminal charges have been

filed. Well, and that's why part of my current work investigating the death of this 12-year-old boy is, you know, staying on regulators, right, state regulators who's allowed this camp to operate freely with very little oversight and staying on criminal investigators and monitoring the court system and court documents and court paperwork to see what new details are coming out and to get to the bottom of what investigators know and what the truth is here. Question, what is the local district attorney doing about this? That would be a good question. Again, all we know so far from what authorities have said, what investigators have said, and what's been filed in court, which is really all anyone's saying at this point, is from the search warrants that have been unsealed. But we've not heard anything from the local prosecutor. It's a multi-county judicial district. So the prosecutor there oversees three different counties, including the one where

this boy died, where Trails Carolina is. Nick Oxner, who is the district attorney? Yeah, the district attorney for this judicial district is Andrew Murray. He actually is the former U.S. attorney to the United States attorney for the Western District of North Carolina, a seasoned prosecutor. Really? I just so happen to have his phone number. 828-694-4200. Repeat, 828-694-4200. 100. Why is this case not being classified as a homicide? What will the autopsy report reveal to Dr. Todd Barr, board certified anatomic clinical forensic pathologist? What do you make of it, Dr. Barr? I have a couple of points. The part of this that really is most disturbing to me is when somebody, it might have been you, Nancy, that said they found possibility of petechia around the mouth and the eyes. That's particularly worrisome for me.

Doesn't that indicate asphyxiated, smothered, in some way applied pressure to his neck to cause those blood vessels to break and cause these little hemorrhages to occur. The one thing I just, I do want to state one other thing, and I'm not justifying what happened to this boy, but there is this thing called paradoxical undressing when people are suffering from hypothermia. And I've done many cases where people have been found with their clothing off. When you're in really cold temperatures, and you're suffering from hypothermia, your brain can interpret that as being hot. And many people, when they're in these cold environments, start to take their clothes off because they feel warm and hot.

I've thought about paradoxical hypothermia because I've encountered it on several occasions. And I'm curious if the 12-year-old boy, all we know him by is CJH, was suffering from paradoxical hypothermia where you're so cold you think you're hot. It has happened. Why? I would assume the first thing you take off would be your shirt, right, when you're hot? Correct. And that's why I find the idea of the petechiae are very troublesome. And also, he could develop this pulmonary edema,

this frothing fluid that comes out of the lungs from being asphyxiated as well. So, you know, this frothing is a nonspecific finding that happens in many forms of death. But it's really the petechiae that trouble me the most. I agree. This smells too much like foul play to me. I would really love to know what was found at autopsy. There are other internal findings that you can find that may indicate hypothermia, but there are also other findings that you can see at an autopsy. Not with a petechia busted, Dr. Barr. I want to know if he had hemorrhage in his neck muscle, because that would also be an indication of asphyxia.

Can you think of any reason if he had had this 12-year-old boy, paradoxical hypothermia, that the petechia in his eyes and around his mouth would be burst? Why? I can't. No. Thank you. Yeah, you would never get petechia from hypothermia. Never. Which completely rules out paradoxical hypothermia. The petechiae. We asked the camp, Charles Carolina, to come on with us to give a statement. Guess what? They didn't want to answer my questions. I wonder why. If you have or think you have

information relating to the death of this little boy, 12 years old, please call 828-884-3108. And reminder, the elected district attorney elected because in that jurisdiction, they trust him to do something. Andrew Murray, 828-694-4200. Or you can go all the way to the North Carolina Attorney General. 919-716-6400. We wait for justice to unfold. Goodbye, friend.

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