Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Boy, 5, FOLDED DEAD IN A SUITCASE, Just ID'd

Episode Date: October 27, 2022

A 5-year-old Georgia boy found dead in a suitcase in Indiana earlier this year now has a name, Cairo Ammar Jordan, and his mother is accused in his death. Dejuane Ludie, 57, Anderson of Atlanta, is on the run. Indiana police say another suspect, 40-year-old Dawn Elaine Coleman of Shreveport, Louisiana, is in custody.   Investigators say the little boy died from an electrolyte imbalance. The medical examiner says that the imbalance was most likely due to a “viral gastroenteritis” caused by excessive vomiting or diarrhea.  Toxicology tests came back negative and the boy had no severe injuries. Police do not believe the boy was alive when he was placed inside the suitcase.  A mushroom hunter found the hardshell suitcase, which features the famous “Welcome to Las Vegas” sign. The boy's mother posted online recently saying she believed the child was really a 100-year-old demon. TIPLINE:  Indiana State Police [phone] (within Indiana) or Detective Matt Busick, Indiana State Police in Sellersburg [phone] or [phone] Joining Nancy Grace Today: Steve Kramer - Former FBI Attorney and Federal Prosecutor, President: Indago Solutions, Indago.ai; (led the team that identified the Golden State Killer), Co-Founder of the FBI's Forensic Genetic Genealogy (FGG) Program Dr. Thomas Plante - The Augustin Cardinal Bea, S.J., Professor of Psychology and Religious Studies, Santa Clara University; Adjunct Clinical Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Stanford University School of Medicine;  Editor, Spirituality in Clinical Practice;  Author: " Human Interaction with the Divine, the Sacred, and the Deceased: Psychological, Scientific, and Theological Perspectives." Detective Matt Busick - Investigations, Indiana State Police (Sellersburg, IN)  Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” Twitter: @JoScottForensic Max Lewis - Reporter, FOX59 (Indianapolis); Twitter/Instagram: @MaxLewisTV, Facebook.com/MaxLewisTV  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A tiny little boy folded over, folded up into a suitcase. Just let that sink in for a moment. It was a suitcase with the iconic sign on it, Welcome to Fabulous Las Vegas. A tiny boy, a five-year-old boy folded up dead in a suitcase. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. A stunning twist in the case of the boy in the suitcase. Listen to our friends, WHAS. Shocking story that's been developing since the weekend.

New evidence released by Indiana State Police moments ago in the discovery of a little boy's body in the woods in southern Indiana. The chilling reality that he may have been dumped there from somewhere else. This photo of a suitcase, Indiana State Police tell us the body of the little boy was found inside this suitcase. And for the first time, they have given a specific location, the 7000 block of East Holder Road in Washington County, Indiana, the wooded area there that's southeast of Salem. Now, the discovery was made by a person hunting for mushrooms over the weekend. Also new today, an autopsy was performed. Police have not released any results, nor they've released no possible cause of death,

and they still do not know his identity. We do know that police say the boy is only five to eight years old. They add that he could have been from anywhere, not just southern Indiana. Investigators say they have been searching the wooded area where the boy was found, but the information has not led them to any answers. And that is how the mystery, the puzzle began. But I'm still overwhelmed by just the words, a little boy folded up dead in a suitcase, a Vegas suitcase found in Indiana, but they have no idea where this little boy was from. Take a listen to our friends at WDRB. Right now, Indiana State Police isn't giving too many details on this case, but investigators do believe that somebody out there knows something that can help them figure out who this child was.

We are looking for the public's help in finding out the name of this child, this little boy, who deserves answers. He deserves our help. Sergeant Kerry Hulls said Saturday night a mushroom hunter in the woods in rural Washington County discovered the body of a young boy. He noticed something and went to investigate, and that's what he found. So very disturbing, very shocking, very traumatic event, very sad event. The man who found this boy, Jeff Meredith, is in agony, knowing he was one of the last people to see this child's face. When I first saw that little fella, immediately I felt that he was telling me, help me. I need help. It sounds like it's out of an Agatha Christie mystery. A mushroom hunter.

How likely is that? Very unlikely. Finds a suitcase. Opens the suitcase. And finds a little boy dead inside. The first place you start is what was the COD, cause of death? Listen to our friends, WHAS 11. A boy found dead in southern Indiana remains nameless.

His story and the suitcase he was found in have gained national attention. Hundreds of tips submitted and still no answers. Except for one. We now know how the boy died. At this time, there's no evidence that leads investigators to believe that he was alive when he went into the suitcase. Sergeant Kerry Hull says investigators got the autopsy and toxicology reports on May 20th. Seven days later, they share this unnamed boy died from an electrolyte imbalance. Most likely due to gastroenteritis, which in common layman's term would be vomiting and diarrhea, and that resulted in dehydration.

Fatal dehydration. And he says the toxicology report found nothing significant. So if a little boy dies of vomiting and diarrhea, nobody noticed that he was vomiting and had horrible diarrhea till he was being starved. There was nothing in him anymore. And he just died. Where was he? And I guarantee you didn't crawl into a suitcase and die and close that suitcase and maneuver it into the woods in Indiana.

That didn't happen. So we have a COD cause of death, but still no name. Well, in the last hours, literally that little boy now has a name. Listen to our friends at the Indiana State Police. At this time, we can also identify the young man that was found in the suitcase. He was Cairo Amar Jordan.

Cairo Amar Jordan was from Atlanta, Georgia. He was five years old at the time of his death, and Cairo would have turned six this past Monday on October 24th. Again, Cairo Amar Jordan. He was five from Atlanta, Georgia. A man hunting for mushrooms made the discovery in Washington County, Indiana on April 16th. But it wasn't until today that investigators identified the little boy found inside as Cairo Jordan from Metro Atlanta. People who live in that Indiana community have waited since spring for answers. They named the child Angel and strangers were overcome with emotion as they held this memorial service 46 days after his body was found. Now their local mystery

has turned into a nationwide search to find the child's mother. You were just hearing our friends at WSB2 as well. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, including Max Lewis from Fox 59 in Indianapolis. But first, I want to go to Detective Matt Busick joining us from the Indiana State Police. Detective Busick, thank you for being with us. Yes ma'am, thank you. Detective, do you recall when you first learned, I mean let me ask you something off point, do you have children? Yes ma'am, I do. How many? Six actually. I'm guessing one of those is a little boy. Yes, I have three boys and three girls. Do you recall when you first learned, Detective Busick, that a five-year-old little boy weighing 40 pounds

was found folded up dead in a Vegas suitcase? Yes, ma'am. I do recall that. Tell me about it. Well, like I said, I don't want to get into too much here because I'm still running an investigation. I want to try to stand partial. I'm asking you when you first learned about it. Well, yes, it's very disturbing.

Yes, it is. I pictured my own children to Dr. Thomas Plant joining me, professor of psychology and religious studies. And you'll see why he is so very critical in our discussion today. Adjunct Professor of Psychiatry at Stanford University, Editor of Spirituality and Clinical Practice, author of Human Interaction with the Divine, Sacred, Deceased. Dr. Plant, thank you so much for being with us. Well, thank you for inviting me.

Yes, sir. When I first heard about a five-year-old boy folded over dead like an old coat in a suitcase, abandoned, no idea where he came from, and critically, no one had reported him missing, all I could think about were my children, Plant, does the nature of crimes like this ever keep you from a clear head? Well, of course, we're all emotional human beings and we all have emotional reactions and we all can probably relate as parents,

like yourself, like myself, and like so many others, to what would it be like to discover our own child in such an awful, horrific condition. And so, of course, we always can relate, and yet we have to be objective and thoughtful and try to do the best we can to understand the situation and act accordingly. Straight out to Max Lewis joining us, reporter with Fox 59 in Indianapolis. Max, I'm sure you recall when this Vegas suitcase was first discovered in Indianapolis with, obviously, you don't know whether the child is from Vegas or Indianapolis or somewhere else. In the last hours, we're learning it was Atlanta.

Yeah, I mean, it was, I remember when the story came in and, you know, the police had put out the picture of the suitcase. It was shocking. This kind of thing doesn't, you know, we don't see this kind of thing every day. We rarely see this. And yeah, there were so many questions. It was such a mystery. Where is this kid from?

Why was he found out in the woods in rural southern Indiana? There were just so many questions for so long. And police really, from what we could tell, had nothing to go on. And luckily, they were able to, you know, to find out some things and officially give this little boy in the suitcase the name. To Joe Scott Morgan joining us, professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, host of Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, what's the first thing detectives would do

in a case like this? Well, you know, the way it's been presented is that the suitcase was essentially found in a really, really isolated area, Nancy, abandoned, if you will. And can you imagine walking out into a forested area for those that haven't seen this image of the suitcase? And it's typical Las Vegas, you know, the appearance of this thing. It's bright, it's eye-catching, and it's oddly positioned in this specific location. So, you know, you have to ask the question,

how did this item wind up in this very rural area? And it's standing alone there. Just can you imagine just on this forested floor where this guy's looking for mushrooms? You'd secure the area first off and then document it as best as you can because this is highly irregular to find this. It's not like it's just discarded on the side of the road down in a ditch or something. It's sitting out in a wooded area.

So you think, I think probably that it is purposed to be there. That is that maybe somebody wanted this to be found? Well, I don't know if it took a mushroom hunter to find it, Joe Scott Morgan. I doubt pretty seriously anybody ever thought it would be found. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Steve Kramer, former FBI and federal prosecutor, president of Indago Solutions, who led to the identification of the Golden State Killer. Steve Kramer, how do you go about, how did they identify the body as Little Cairo? In this particular case, I think it was a combination of fingerprints that were on the suitcase. I think that was the main thing.

I'm not sure if they actually used DNA on this or not. Mm-hmm. I think you're right. I think you're absolutely right, Steve Kramer. Steve joining us from Indago Solutions. Guys, take a listen to our friends at WSB. 37-year-old DeJuan Anderson is now charged with murder. As that no crime scene evidence technologies were spared in this case. According

to court documents, police identified Anderson through fingerprints on trash bags used to wrap the child's body. An autopsy report shows Jordan did not suffer any signs of physical trauma. The autopsy listed the cause of death as electrolyte imbalance that caused a viral gastroenteritis. Yeah, and that is dehydration. Police believe after dumping that body that Anderson went to California with a woman named Dawn Coleman. Investigators were able to arrest Coleman in San Francisco, but they have yet to track down Anderson. They are still looking for her. So mommy's fingerprints, Steve Kramer, you called it, were all over that trash bag. So I guess then, Steve Kramer, you called it, were all over that trash bag.

So I guess then, Steve Kramer, they find mommy and then they can deduce that it's baby Cairo. Was that your thinking, Steve? Yeah, correct. That's, I think, the logical deducement. Once they did some additional background information on Anderson, I think it was clear that she was traveling apparently all over the country with her child and with her friend, Don Coleman, whose fingerprints also, I understand, were found on the suitcase. Oh, okay. Right there. Wait a minute. So, Max Lewis joining us, investigative reporter with Fox 59. We know that mommy and her friend, her running buddy,

left fingerprints all over the trash bag. But I mean, think about that image, putting the child in a trash bag and in a a suitcase. And leaving it. Max Lewis, I want you to take a listen to our friends WLKY and THR. On April 14th, investigators say cell phone towers and a home security camera placed Anderson and Coleman in Pekin, Indiana, near the wooded area where Jordan's body was found. This whole case is all about justice for Cairo. That's the only thing this case has ever been about.

Investigators found a fingerprint on a trash bag in the suitcase with the boy's body. In June, the fingerprint match was made to 37-year-old DeJuan Anderson. Another fingerprint from the trash bag in the suitcase matched 40-year-old Don Coleman. The cell phones of both women placed them in the area matched 40-year-old Dawn Coleman. The cell phones of both women placed them in the area of Pekin April 14th, two days before the suitcase was found. Coleman's social media accounts include photos and videos of her with a Las Vegas suitcase. Straight out to Max Lewis. So what role did cell phone pings play in the identification of the mother as a suspect? It played a huge role.

The police, you know, they were both in the Metro Louisville area for quite a while. And so once they sort of, you know, got their fingerprints, made the connection to them, they started piecing all of this stuff together. They had, as you've heard, been crisscrossing the country together. Once they got into Louisville, they, you know, pinged there, which is, you know, close to where this suitcase was found in the wooded areas, not too far outside Metro Louisville. And they used those cell phone towers and were able to show that they were in the exact vicinity where that suitcase was found. Obviously, no coincidence there. And I bet anything, Joe Scott Morgan, Professor of Forensics, that the two cell phones were traveling together.

The devil and the devil's minion. Hey, you know what it reminds me of, Joe Scott Morgan? It reminds me of the case, and you may wonder why at first, of Vanessa Gim, the beautiful, young, military female. She was murdered by another guy in the military, her superior, as I recall, Aaron Robinson. She was murdered, dismembered, burned, and buried in basically a shallow grave. They tried to put cement on top of her. And when I say they, here's my point. Do you recall the name Cecily Aguilar?

Yes, I do. Robinson's married girlfriend. Can you imagine the two of them with that fire trying to burn Vanessa's body? And it went so high up, the fire actually burned the leaves in the trees above where they were trying to burn her. Again, it's like witches dancing around the cauldron. Yeah, how do you get two people to enter into an agreement where they're going to do this to this baby like this?

And Nancy, I don't want to gloss over this whole gastroenteritis thing. Thank you. I don't either. Go ahead. As horrible as it sounds, it would have been more merciful if that even exists in this context to put this baby out of his misery. Gastroenteritis essentially what he had was stomach flu, and we can all identify with that. But it was untreated, Nancy. You remember when our babies were little and we'd go out and get them pedialyte perhaps or make the pedialyte popsicles because they've got a tummy problem and his bowel was so inflamed and that's what they found at autopsy that was what was evidence there his bowel was so inflamed that it led to his death and he would have been vomiting plus he would have had severe stomach cramps where he would be doubled over and probably the worst of this is that he would have had like explosive bowel movements as well explosive diarrhea essentially

and he was going on this is this is the horror he's going untreated they couldn't even give this baby electrolytes which you can find in any number of things like Pedialyte. Or take him to the doc in a box. No offense, all you MDs, they hate being called that. Yeah, it would have been that simple. They could have just hung an IV on this baby and he would have potentially survived. But they stood by, sat by the two of these women and let him suffer like that just think about your intestines swollen red hurting why do you get that just got it's as a result of this absence of electrolytes no I mean how do you get the diarrhea and the uncontrolled vomiting to start with where does that come from well this is as a result of the viral

gastroenteritis. And they're saying viral. So he literally had some type of virus in his body, okay, like a norovirus or one of these things that floats around that leads to a viral infection. And many times it will set in in your gut like this. And so as you're losing all of these fluids, he's becoming dehydrated, Nancy. So he's losing these little electrolytes. And there's a variety of them. You've got sodium and chloride and potassium. But basically, they're kind of the guardrails that keep our heart functioning, our brain functioning. He could have had a seizure. Well, Joe Scott, sorry to interrupt you, but according to Mommy, you're perfectly wrong.

Oh, really? Because she believes it had nothing to do with the virus, and it had everything to do with the devil. Take a listen to our cut 33, WTHR and WHAS. Social media posts from both women indicate they thought the boy was demon possessed. Eight days before the body was discovered, Coleman posted, Nothing is what it seems and we are catering to evil beings and children avatars that aren't even children. And five days before the body was discovered, Anderson posted, I have survived the death attacks from my five-year-old throughout the five years he has been alive.

I have been able to weaken his powers through our blood. The probable cause affidavit shows Anderson sent Facebook messages claiming her son was a demon who tried to harm her. She wrote to an Indiana pastor saying she believed he was actually 100 years old and she used blood for some kind of exorcism. In reality, he was a defenseless five-year-old boy. Do I have to say the words? Lori Vallow, cult mom Lori Vallow and her, what was he, Jackie, her fourth or fifth husband, Chad Daybell, his wife mysteriously died in her sleep. She was as healthy as a horse. She just ran a marathon and then she dies in her sleep. They killed her. I don't know how they did it, but they did it. It's a crutch using some completely opposite religion of what Christ intended.

Not that I'm an expert, but I'm pretty sure this is not what he had in mind. Calling your five-year-old child the devil and demanding an exorcism. With us, Dr. Thomas Plant. You heard him earlier, professor of psychology and religious studies, clinical professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Stanford, and the editor of Spirituality and Clinical Practice, author of Human Interaction with the Divine, the Sacred, and the Deceased, Psychological, Scientific, and Theological Perspectives. Dr. Plant, what do you make of this? Well, you know, I think the bottom line is, you know, psychopathology can be a really terrible and brutal thing, and you can't diagnose

someone from afar. But what it sounds like is that this, as well, what, given the data that's been presented, is that it sounds like this person has a psychotic disorder. Perhaps it's schizophrenia, could be bipolar, could be, since she has another person involved with this, according to the report, you would wonder about what's called a shared delusional disorder, or a phileadu, where two people share the same delusion. Right. Are you speaking French or Latin? Phileadu, where two people share the same delusion. Right. Are you speaking French or Latin? Phileadu.

That's two. Phileadu is French. It means a folly of two, and that's a diagnosis also called shared delusional disorder. Dr. Plant, I am just a JD. You are the professor of psychology and religious studies. Hold on just a, it's so much at once. Folly of two.

Folly I do. And you're, cause I can accept that one person could be schizophrenic or have some type of psychotic disorder, but two of them together in the same room and they agree to kill a baby and fold them up like a blanket and put them in a suitcase, that, to me, is unreasonable. That there would be two people, equally psychotic, which leaves me with one answer.

They're murderers. They knew what they were doing. They're hiding behind some crazy religious belief, and they're mean as hell. Well, as I mentioned, you can't diagnose from afar, but according to the American Psychiatric Association, there are a legitimate diagnosis called phileo-do, or now it's called shared delusional disorder, and you do see it, and I've seen some of those cases. A lot? Have you seen a lot of them?

No, no. It's pretty unusual, but it's there. Just like, for example, schizophrenia affects maybe about one out of a hundred people, which is, and folio do, or shared delusional disorder would probably be about one out of a thousand people or so. That may or may not be the diagnosis, but I think the bottom line is you've got major psychopathology here uh... and i think that's probably pretty clear and uh... the question is uh... you know uh... what do you what do you do when you have a situation where people have such severe disorders and they have children in their of possession or in their custody

uh... that brings into issues of uh you know, child protection and so forth, which are often challenging to deal with. There was probably early signs. This probably wasn't the first sign that this child was in trouble. To Steve Kramer, former FBI attorney and federal prosecutor, president of Indago Solutions. You know what? I am a Christian.

I'm seeking the truth every day, trying to live it. But this theory of hiding behind your religion in order to do horrible things, I'm not quite sure how to call that out. And we see it all the time. I mentioned cult mom, Lori Vallow, using her apocalyptic religious beliefs, and she gets slung up with Chad Daybell, the prophet. And for those of you that can't see me,

I absolutely used air quotas on that. And I've seen over and over and over Steve Kramer, parents that have some religious belief and they ended up starving their children or beating them all in the name of, dare I say it, God. And frankly, I mean, I hear Dr. Plant. I know he's a lot smarter than me for sure. But it just doesn't make sense to me that a mother who could drive, hide her baby, still on the land, by the way. She's crazy, but she can elude police and plan her next spot. She's still not caught. She's got Indiana State Troopers standing on their ears trying to find her.

There's a nationwide alert for her. So how crazy is she? Is she crazy like a fox, Steve Kramer? Does she have some psychosis? And if so, do you really believe both of them are delusional? I heard what Dr. Plant said about filial duty, folly of two, shared delusional disorder. Not Biden? I would convict both of these women. Literally, their fingerprints are all over the garbage bag they stuffed this child into. Your turn, Kramer.

Yeah, I mean, to call this a religion, come on. That's nonsense. I mean, this is, you know, babbling. Not you, Dr. Plant. Not you. No, no, no. Of course not. Just know that.

The last thing I want to do is get a preacher mad. Okay? I don't even need that in my life. Go ahead, Kramerramer just let's make sure dr plant knows it's not about him but what he said is exactly what they're going to claim at trial if they're ever both caught go ahead exactly i mean putting the stuff out on facebook and twitter about you know their child is you know an avatar uh and my child's somehow possessed, or I had to do some healing and I had to do some killing. I mean, the stuff they're saying, I mean, this is actually, unfortunately,

not that uncommon. You know, we see cases like you mentioned, the Lori Vallow, Chad Daybell case, where she killed allegedly her own children. We see other cases. A lot of times when we find children, find children, young children, like I said, are incapable of taking care of themselves, that are abandoned someplace, dead, the bodies, when we eventually identify the parents, they are off with having some affair, the child was an inconvenience, or they're on some drug high, again, the child's an inconvenience. So that aspect is not really uncommon. And I think in this particular case, I mean, you look at it,

I mean, after she was released from jail on April 11th, you know, she said, I had to do some healing and killing. And that was around April 12th. And, you know, the body was found two days later, April 14th. And I'll just point out one key thing with this. And you mentioned it earlier too, Nancy, is they didn't think they were doing anything wrong. Then why did they hide the baby or the five-year-old in a suitcase and put it out in the field? And why are they on the lam now? What are they running from if they haven't done anything wrong?

So clearly she knows that she's done something wrong. But what I find most interesting is her accomplice, John Coleman, they were both wanted on warrants of neglect of a dependent in obstruction of justice. And Coleman was arrested on the 19th of October. Less than a week later, those charges were upgraded to murder against um miss anderson so obviously she probably said something to the police exactly what happened with this child that allowed the police and the prosecutors to upgrade the charges from neglect to murder but i mean there's such a history steve of hiding behind some kind of religion while your child dies. Let's see, there's two-year-old, I made a list last night, Ella Grace.

Her parents, Jonathan and Grace Ford, thought it was God's will their little two-year-old die. Then there's nine-year-old Jason Lockhart out of Oklahoma, much the same. Sixteen-year-old Neil Bigley, much the same. And they hide behind religion while their child dies. That's what I'm seeing. I mean, Max Lewis, Fox 59, joining us from Indianapolis. What's the reaction to mommy claiming her child was possessed? Well, you know, I am sort of speechless myself.

And I think that's the way everybody else was. You know, she had tried to reach out to this priest in southeastern Indiana who was a well-known performer of exorcists, Vatican-trained exorcist, and wasn't able to get a hold of him. And so that claim, I think, or that sort of claim from her and the Facebook post that you were mentioning, I think was really shocking to everybody. I do want to make a point about something that Dr. Plant said. He said that this child was likely in danger before, or there were likely signs before. Well, there was. She was actually, these two women, mom and Don Coleman, actually got into a car chase, record show down in South Carolina. They were running from the police going over 90 miles an hour on the interstate.

And the kid and the little boy, Cairo, was in the car with them. I mean, that doesn't spell danger. I don't know what does. So, you know, clearly, I think what Dr. Plant said is correct. This boy was in danger before, had been in danger. And unfortunately, it appears the right steps weren't taken. And he ended up in this suitcase dead. Why wasn't the baby taken away then, Max Lewis?

I mean, his siblings have been taken away. Why not him? I don't know. You know, it's really a mystery and something that probably authorities in South Carolina maybe need to answer for. Because when this car chase ended, you know, Anderson was the one driving. The mom was the one driving. And then Don Coleman was in the passenger seat. The baby was in the backseat. When this police chase ended, because they ran out of gas they basically just dropped don coleman and the child off at a motel and took the mom to jail and um so he she was the child was given right back to them wow sounds like defects department family children's services

on it again now we have another dead child. Seemingly, nobody but me cares because it keeps happening every day. Children in horrible, dangerous situations are left there because Child Protective Services does nothing. Now, speaking of exorcism, take a listen to our friends at Fox 59. The affidavit in the case details a series of strange social media posts police say Cairo's mother sent about demons, exorcism, and dark magic in the days before he was found. On April 12th, Anderson reached out to an Indianapolis priest, Father Vincent Lampert, from the Archdiocese of Indianapolis on Twitter. Father Lampert is one of dozens of priests who are exorcists in the U.S. As you may know, an exorcist is someone trained to cast out demons. Father Lampert told us it's rare that a child dealing with, quote,

demonic possession. There's no such thing as an emergency exorcism. It really begins with the person having a psychiatric evaluation by a qualified psychologist or psychiatrist, and then having a medical examination by their family doctor. Father Lampert says when someone contacts him, he encourages them to talk to their pastor and their family doctor. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace To Dr. Thomas Plant joining us, Professor of Stanford University and author. Dr. Plant, what exactly is an exorcism? Have you ever been present during an exorcism?

No, I haven't been present during an exorcism, but I have worked with an exorcist, and he refers patients to me. I refer patients to him. And an exorcist is trained to perform a ritual. As you know, the Catholic Church has lots of rituals, and this is one ritual of training, so that they're trained through the Vatican and so forth, the Vatican approved. And exorcists like this gentleman you just mentioned, and including the exorcists that I've worked with, will say that 99.9% of the time of cases are major psychopathology, and what's necessary is a psychiatric evaluation or medical evaluation and so forth, and their troubles are really in that arena. And I think that's true. When it comes to religion, sadly and tragically, some people use religion for great harm, and some people use religion for great good. And I think that it's sort of like a car.

You know, a car can be a great thing. It gets you where you want to go. But a car in the hands of a drunk driver is a terrible weapon. Same is true with religion in this case. As you said, this woman may have been using those imagery and things like that to justify her behavior, which is horrific. But, you know, sadly, that is a common phenomenon across the world. And it always has been, where people project their troubles and

whatnot onto kind of religion and then justify their actions in that way. You know, Dr. Thomas Plant, there is one thing I know for sure, and that is that I know very, very little. I know how to try a murder case and any other criminal case. I know the law like the back of my hand. That's pretty much it. Oh, I know how to cook. I know how to do that. But this is so far out of my league, what you're talking about.

You know what, Dr. Plant? I also find it interesting that sort of an intellectual snobbery, many people do not believe in exorcisms or demons or devils. It does sound fantastical, that's true. But so does flying to the moon. So does the Hubble telescope. So many things sound fantastical. And I think that it's narrow-minded for yourself do believe it is very, very real.

Somehow I've gotten off into the validity or invalidity of exorcisms, about which I know nothing. I do know about crime. And what you said is entirely true, Dr. Plant. Joe Scott Morgan, I know forensics. I know crime. And that's what I'm going to fall back on when I don't understand the rest. I want you specifically to take a listen to Courtney Spinelli, Fox 59. A child who for months was only known as the boy found in a suitcase in rural Indiana now has a name.

Five-year-old Cairo Jordan. His suit hasn't really sunk in yet. Cairo's paternal grandparents and great uncles say they only learned he died one day ago. The child they call a sweet boy would have turned six this week. I would have wanted to know what kind of person he would have come to be. Things like whether he would have grown up to play football like his dad did when he was younger. Authorities are still trying to find Kyra's mother, Dajon Anderson, now charged in his murder. All she had to do was just, you know, let us know and we would have easily took him. How many children, Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator,

have you been at the murder scene, the homicide scene, the death scene, the autopsy where mommy or daddy is the killer, but the rest of the family did nothing. They knew there was a problem. How could this family not know mommy was arrested for a felony in South Carolina and got the child back? And that's counting on the fact that the individual had contact with her family. But lots of times you'll have these individuals that will know. I mean, they will know that what's going on within that household is wrong.

And nobody interdicts it because nobody wants to get crossways with the family members. Nobody wants to create a problem with the family members and all for what? Now, in this particular case, you've got this baby who was abandoned like garbage. Let's just face it. That's the way he was treated out in the middle of the woods. And you can't tell me there weren't red flags leading up to this. I've seen this over and over and over again, Nancy. We know that the mother moved around a lot. I want you to listen, Jackie.

I want to cut forward to our cut number 38, Fox 59. Listen. In a series of posts, Anderson indicated she believed Cairo was possessed. Family wishes anyone seeing these posts would have reached out to offer help. That could have saved Cairo. That could have saved his mom. Could have brought him back to Georgia. Could have helped him in whatever way he needed.

As they work to grasp what happened to Cairo, they're grateful for the strangers who never stopped fighting for justice. We definitely want to thank the people in Indiana who did give him a proper burial that was so nice of them. It shows what humanity really is. Okay, my head is spinning right

now because you've got the grandparents, the other family going, wow, I wish someone had done something. What about you? You don't have social media. You didn't know that this mom was posting her son is the devil. Well, now he's dead and she is on the run.

Tip line 888-437-6432. May justice unfold. Goodbye, friend.