Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Boyfriend charged in pregnant teacher's murder; Should ex-Manson follower go free?

Episode Date: September 14, 2017

Tyler Tessier publicly pleaded for his missing girlfriend's return, but he's now charged with the killing the pregnant Maryland teacher. Nancy Grace discusses Laura Wallen's murder, including r with crime scene expert Sheryl McCollum,  psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall & reporter Leigh Egan. Only Calif. Gov. Jerry Brown stands in the way of ex- Manson follower Leslie Van Houten's release from prison nearly 5 decades after she and other Manson family members were convicted in a Los Angeles murder spree. A parole panel has approved her release but Gov. Brown has the power to veto their decision. Grace discusses the decision with major crimes investigator Karen Smith and Alisa Statman, author of Restless Souls: The Sharon Tate Family's Account of Stardom, the Manson Murders, and a Crusade for Justice. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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just great resources to help you protect what you care about, your family. For special savings, be sure to enter code NANCY, N-A-N-C-Y at checkout. LegalZoom.com. LegalZoom.com. Laura Wallen didn't show up to teach her social studies class on Tuesday, the first day of school at Wild Lake High. I spoke with her on Saturday, just through text message, and then briefly on Sunday, and then I had one text message in the morning on Monday. The missing teacher's father and sister say she was four months pregnant. Totally torn our world apart. It's like a TV drama that you wish you could shut off, but you can't. Detectives found the body of Laura Wallen in a shallow grave.

Her body has now been recovered. Tyler Tessier, Mrs. Wallen's boyfriend, was arrested for her murder. In the last hours, the answer we did not want. After all of us have been reading, researching, praying, commenting, investigating, we learn the body of a beautiful young teacher, Laura Whalen. Just 31 years old of Old Knee, Maryland, body has been found. Take a listen to what Montgomery County Police say. Today, around noon, detectives and members of the Montgomery County Police Search and Rescue Team were searching a wooded area near Prices Distillery Road in Damascus.

They located a patch of freshly dug ground in a secluded area of a field. Cadaver dogs indicated on the area and ultimately detectives found the body of Laura Wallen in a shallow grave. Her body has now been recovered. At 5 30 p.m. this afternoon, Tyler Tessier, Mrs. Wallen's boyfriend, was arrested for her murder. Since Ms. Wallen's boyfriend was arrested for her murder. Since Ms. Wallen was reported missing by her family nine days ago, we've determined that Mr. Tessier was the last person known to have been with the victim. They were seen together on surveillance camera video on Saturday, September 2nd, in a grocery store near the victim's home. It is suspected by investigators that she was killed the next day.

The victim's sister received texts from Ms. Wallen's phone on Monday morning, September 4th. We have determined that these texts were sent by Tyler Tessier, the suspect in this case. Since this investigation began, Mr. Tessier, the suspect in this case. Since this investigation began, Mr Tessier has provided information to detectives that led them to suspect his involvement in this case. In addition, Mr Tessier was determined to have driven the victim's car to the Columbia area. He admitted to removing the front tag and disposing of it. Tessier also texted an acquaintance asking for a ride to Baltimore late Sunday night. He said that he needed help

to quote, to clean up a mess. The acquaintance declined to assist him. Mr. Tessier also admitted to disposing of the victim's driver's license and her iPhone. The break in this case came when it was determined that Tessier had made several trips to an acquaintance property on Prices Distillery Road in Damascus. Investigators showed up there today with a search warrant for the property which was a dwelling along with open fields and woods. During the search, the team observed tire tracks on a nearby property. They observed a

freshly dug ground on the property, which was some distance from the property that they were originally searching. We spoke with the owner of the property where the ground had been disturbed and we were ultimately able to recover the victim's body. The property owner of that property has no involvement with the case. Warrants for Mr. Tessier's arrest were obtained this afternoon and he was taken into custody at around 5.30 PM this evening. He's being charged with the murder of Laura Wallen.

I want to thank the detectives and all of the members of the public, both here and in Howard County, who assisted us with information related to this case. I also want to thank my homicide detectives who worked around the clock on this case and were able to bring it to closure. I also want to thank my homicide detectives who worked around the clock on this case and were able to bring it to closure. And in closing, while this arrest does provide some answers, I'm aware of the impact that this had on Ms Wallace community and all we know that many of you are grieving with Laura's family tonight. So I'll answer any questions that you might have.

Was there anything in the news conference on Monday in which raised some eyebrows and made you think something was wrong here that would lead you to believe that Tyler Tessier was a suspect in this case? Because he did speak to the media. That's correct. And the decision to allow him to participate in that news conference was a calculated decision made by the detectives in this case for the express purpose of hearing what he had to say. It was done with the approval and knowledge of the victim's family. And what was in that text message?

There was a text message that was sent. day that Laura Wallen went missing. You all wouldn't tell us what was in it, but the family said it was troubling. She sent a text message to, um, I can't remember if it was her sister or her friend saying that, uh, Tyler had taken her to an open field up in the Damascus area and she says I'm not sure why we're up here but he's taking me to this place in the middle of nowhere something to that effect the friend said take a picture and she did. She was pregnant did he give any indication why he allegedly did this? I can only speculate as to the motive.

We have not gotten any information from him about the motive of this case. Fox 5 was able to confirm that he's living with a woman in Damascus. Has that woman been questioned in this investigation? He's actually got three different places where he was living. He lived three different locations typically during the week. Everyone who he lived with has been interviewed in this case. What led you to that particular area in which the cadaver dogs then said, you know, we're going to look into this?

Why there? area in which the cadaver dogs then said you know we're going to look into this what why there we had been able to determine over the past week that he had made several visits to that area and we also determined that he would occasionally or during some period of time would stay there and so we got a search warrant for that property which including a dwelling and quite a bit of wooded area and fields and the search search team our search team actually did search the perimeter of those entire woods and at some point noticed tire tracks that went into an area of the woods and followed and that's what led them to the area where we recovered her body.

Chief, did you point in on Mr. Tessier as a suspect by the press conference on Monday or was he still a person of interest? He was definitely a person of interest. We had already identified a couple of inconsistencies and information that he'd given us and again it was a calculated decision by the detectives to allow him to speak at that press conference. We were going to be very interested in what he had to say at that press conference and again it was done with knowledge and concurrence with the family. They knew as well.

So the family knew he was a person of interest prior to his death? Can you just clarify the timeline of, for instance, that text message that you said that was sent to the friend? You said September 2nd was the surveillance video at the grocery store. What was that text message saying? That was also on September 2nd, which was a Saturday. And then we had nothing, no activity from her phone on Sunday. And then on Monday morning, I believe it was her sister, received texts from Ms. Wallen's phone that were determined later to have cut

that Tyler was the one that was sending those texts. We have been able to confirm that Laura's disappearance happened around the same time she found out that Tyler was living with another woman. Can you confirm that? She had known that for some time. Was there any evidence on the body that would give you some kind of a gauge, like evidence of blunt force trauma or anything? There was not. So we're going to have to wait for the autopsy to get that information.

You talked all about motive in this case. I can't talk about motive because I don't know what the motive was. I know that people have speculated the fact that he was in another relationship. People talked about the fact that the victim was pregnant. That's all speculation. I don't know what the motive was in this case. Thank you all very much. Thank you. joining me is director of the cold case institute cheryl mccollum psychoanalyst out of la dr bethany marshall and crime online investigative reporter lee egan cheryl mccollum did you hear what police

said about why they had the boyfriend speak nancy this was an awesome piece of police work you and i have talked about it ad nauseum that the devil is at the dinner table. This is somebody they knew and trusted. And Nancy, when they allowed him to speak, he literally said a gaping hole. I'm just sick

about it. I am sick about it. Dr. Bethany Marshall, I mean, when we analyzed it before, I was heartened by the fact the family kept saying they think she's alive and hiding out. I mean, in my mind, I mean, I argued with Cheryl when she said that, but I wanted to believe it. Bethany? Well, I did too, but the family knew during the public plea that the boyfriend was a suspect. And did you see the body language,

Nancy? I mean, Laura Wallen's parents are huddled together, and the boyfriend is sitting like a foot away from them. He's holding the mother's hand. The father reaches behind the mother and comforts the boyfriend. And during that time, the father knows that the boyfriend is a suspect in his daughter's disappearance. I just think the family was so courageous to go along with the police suggestion. And you and I have talked so much about this over the years, but when a woman is pregnant, she's at the greatest risk for homicide. And during that public plea presser, it wasn't just the parents of Laura Wallen there. It was the potential grandparents of this little baby.

I just can't imagine the agony they were experiencing. Speaking of the boyfriend, who is now murder suspect number one, listen to what police tricked him into saying at the presser. Now I'd like to ask Laura Wallen's boyfriend, Mr. Tyler Tessier, to step to the podium to say a few words on Laura's behalf. Thank you all for coming here. Laura, if you're listening, it doesn't matter what's happened.

It doesn't matter... It doesn't matter what type of trouble. There's nothing we can't fix together. Myself and your family. There's so many people, so many people that miss you. There's so many people that were out. We haven't slept. We haven't eaten. We're just looking. We're praying that you're safe. and I'm asking you to just let us know that you're safe. If somebody has her, please understand that you've taken away a huge person in so many people's lives, friends and family, students that she has. I know what she means to me. I know what she means to everybody else. We just want to know if she's okay. We just want her back. Thank you. Lee Egan joining me, investigative reporter from Crime Online.

Lee, what did you make of, actually let's hear it, when they actually ask, a reporter asks the boyfriend a question. What she's been like over the last couple of weeks, your interactions with her? Um, like Mr. Wallen said, she was super excited for the start of the school year. I know she had talked to some principal and her teachers, like her coworkers, about her her being pregnant and how excited she was. shock that... I mean, I think leading up to the weekend that she's missing, I mean, I don't believe anybody has any inclination to think that something was wrong or... Do you remember any of your last conversations with her? I'm sorry? Any of your last conversations with her?

I don't know where she is. That's all. I don't know. Like, I don't know where she is. That's all. I don't know. Like, I don't... I know we're all trying to do everything we can to find her, and I just pray that... I pray that she's safe and she comes back. That's all I care about right now I'm sorry Laura and I have known each other probably for 10 years now. We've, you know, any normal relationship, just take one step at a time and take the progress that comes with you. been to doctor's meetings we've been sonograms and all the prenatal care that you know you could ask and i'm sorry

lee what did you think of that i thought that that it was strange, the way he acted. He was more upset and dramatic than the parents were. It's like he already knew that the answer would come soon, that she wouldn't be found alive. That's my personal take on it. I just think that the way he answered the reporter's question, saying that he didn't know when the last time he spoke to her was, all he knew was that he wanted her back safe. That was a red flag for me. This is what we know.

Her body has been found out in a field. And now the search is over. We want justice. We'll be back on the case. And now, on Crime Stories. Is Charlie Manson crazy? Whatever that means. Sure, he's crazy as mad as a hatter.

What difference does it make? I took the knife and I started stabbing and I turned into an animal almost. You know, I just completely let out on that woman's back. Did you tell the women to do their witchy things? I said, if you're going to do something, leave something witchy. Just like I would tell you, if you're going to do something, leave something witchy. Just like I would tell you, if you're going to do something, do it well and leave something witchy.

Leave a sign to let the world know that you were there. Have a good day. It was a crime scene like no other. As a matter of fact, it went down in history. A crime scene that was so barbaric, so bloody, so shocking, so heinous that it has spawned books, articles, movies, the works, the Charles Manson killings, including the murder of a beautiful young mom, Sharon Tate. For all of these years, family members have begged, begged the California Pardon and Parole Board

not to release any of the Charles Manson family, as they call themselves. But in the last days, the Pardon and Parole Board of California has done just that. Charles Manson follower Leslie Van Houten granted parole. It's not over yet. Because even if Pardon and Parole in California grants parole, it must go through the governor. Right now, that governor is Jerry Brown. Is it political suicide? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories, and I, for one, have not forgotten the victims of Charles Manson and his so-called family. It wasn't just Sharon Tate. There were many victims.

Most people don't even remember their names. But joining me right now is someone who knows their names very, very well. The author of Restless Souls, the Sharon Tate family's account of stardom, the Manson murders, and a crusade for justice. Repeat, Restless Souls, the Sharon Tate family's account of stardom, the Mansonders, and a Crusade for Justice. That really says it all. With me is Elisa Statman. Also with me, forensic expert Karen Smith. I got to know Karen when we were performing a series of scientific experiments to prove or disprove in our own minds the validity of a conviction of a young man

who was convicted of murdering his own mother. We conducted those experiments for days and days, and I was so impressed by Karen Smith. Ladies, thank you for being with us. I just want to say at the get-go, I'm a little awestruck of both of you because you're so incredible in your field. And I've been thinking about Sharon Tate. I've been thinking about the LaBiancas. I've been thinking about all of the Manson family victims and what this means to them and their families and what it means to justice in general to know that a Manson family member has walked free. I want to go first to Elisa. Again, thank you for being with us. Your book is incredible. I guess the only place to start when I would be confused and trying a case and I didn't even know where to start.

I did one thing. It could be organizing the file. It could be going down a list of witness that existed and trying to enhance it. Find numbers, find locations. It could be walking to my car in the parking deck and getting in and going out on the street to take pictures. Just one step, one step. And you know what's funny, Elisa? The other day, my little girl Lucy and my son John David said, Mom, Mom, Mom, we've got to write a proverb, a proverb for extra credit.

And I immediately thought of this one. A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, which has been so true. And for the other, I gave all the glitters is not gold. Those are two to live by. So let's start with one step, Elisa. Let's start at the beginning. Let's go through as we wait for the governor's response. Let's start at the beginning. What happened? On the night of August 8th, 1969, Charles Watson, Patricia Kramwinkel, Susan Atkins, and somebody who's not known very well, Linda, went into Sharon's house and murdered five people. And that would be Stephen Parent in the car, Sharon Tate, Jay Sebring, Abigail Folger, and Wojtek Frykowski went into the sanctity of their own home, bound these people up, and murdered them in the most horrific way possible.

Sharon Tate, eight and a half months pregnant, stabbed her 16 times. Over 109 stab wounds, bullet wounds, beaten over the head, blood left on the walls. The bloodiest crime scene that's ever been seen. And then the second night they go out again. Wait, wait, wait. The second night. How did they manage to walk free for there to even be a second night, Elisa? They walked out into the night, went to a neighbor's house, washed the blood off their car and went back to Spahn's movie ranch, never to be detected.

It's just, I'm trying to soak that in. I'm trying to sink it in. When you say the bloodiest crime scene, weren't there words written on the walls in blood? There was the word pig written on the front door at Sharon Tate's house. The next night at the LaBianca house, there was many words written on the walls on the refrigerator in Lino LaBianca's skin. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What in her skin? In Lino LaBianca's skin, Patricia Crenwinkel carved the word war into his skin and then left a carving fork embedded in his stomach and a knife traversing his throat she left a fork stuck in his stomach and a knife stuck in his throat you know what karen smith to hear elisa statman describe it you know i've been on so many murder scenes, seen so many dead bodies, so many autopsies, so many crime scene photos.

But I've never seen anything like that. I've never seen, yes, I've seen a mass murder, but I've never seen it at that scale, Karen. Karen Smith, forensic expert joining me, renowned forensic expert. What does it say to you about who the killers are? Nancy, these people are remorseless. They are vicious. They are cruel. And a crime scene like that goes beyond the scope of any that I've worked. I've worked over 20,000. And I would have been completely aghast and taken aback had I seen something like that. To write pig. I mean, you stab an eight and a half month

pregnant lady 16 times. I remember when I was at six months, I couldn't even walk anymore. I think I told Karen this when we were together at some point when I was pregnant, I was already in a wheelchair. I couldn't breathe. I didn't know I'd had blood clots in my lungs, but I couldn't breathe and I couldn't walk. And I'm just imagining Sharon Tate. And we always hear about Sharon Tate, but who are the other victims, Elisa Statman? Jay Sebring, he was a renowned men's hairstylist. He was working on becoming an international franchise with Sebring International. He had so many hopes and dreams, everything, his entire life reaching out for him.

We have Abigail Folger, who spent her entire life helping others. She went into Watts, which was, you know, a pretty scary place to go for a young woman. She would go, you know, these were where the riots were and where the gangs were, and she would go there every day to help others. She, you know, she spent most of her life helping others. And you know what the newspapers wrote about her? That she was an heiress providing drug money to her boyfriend. You know, those are, let's remember also, you know, what was said about these people. But I want to go back to, you said when they were stabbing Sharon, what nobody remembers and nobody touches upon is what these killers said as they were killing them. And the horrendous things that they were saying as they did it, like saying that,

you know, plunging the knife into Sharon was a sexual release. Susan Atkins, you know, those are the things that when Karen says that these are callous, horrible human beings, we have to go back to what they were, what they have testified to saying as they were taking the life from these

people. You know, I didn't know that fact, you know, I've dealt for so long with Vincent Bugliosi, who is, he's an icon to me. And yes, I know every human has their faults. But I really looked up to him. And it seems like with his passing, the fervor behind, the strength behind keeping these guys in jail seems to have waned. Right now, Leslie Van Houten, a member of the Manson family, has been paroled by the Pardon and Parole Board of California.

I don't know what they're thinking, but it's got to go through governor jerry brown now i want you to hear what my producer my ep has come up with alan duke please roll the sound of leslie van houten talking to her lawyer about the murders and as you alan duke put, sounds like she's just talking about going on a shopping excursion. Listen. And I took the knife and I started stabbing and I turned into an animal almost. You know, I just completely let out on that woman's back. Stabbing, I didn't really have any idea in my mind, but it's a real feeling. It's not even like cutting a piece of meat. It's much tougher. I had to use both hands, all my strength behind it to get it in. And so once I started, the feeling was so weird that I just kept doing it.

She was dead within minutes. And then I remember seeing her laying flat in front of her closet, all bloody on her stomach. And her head was covered so I didn't see her face. I kind of wished I had it because I could have seen what I'd done more. Katie tried to get the knife in her throat, and it wouldn't go. I remember the man laying on the sofa gurgled, that deep, bloody gurgle. And so then the house looked freaky. And then Katie and Tex, when I came out of the bedroom, they were taking a shower.

And then after that, we were hungry. And so we went and we took some cheese and milk out of the refrigerator. With me, guys, is Alan Duke. Alan, she's talking spontaneously and naturally to her lawyers. Tell me exactly what she was just saying. Don't leave anything out. This was 1971, and she was briefing her new lawyer on the case, and it was being recorded. So she was just talking about how it felt to kill, how it felt not just like cutting meat, but it felt different than cutting meat. But what's striking to me is—

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. She said it was like cutting meat. Different than cutting meat. Elisa Statman, tell me. By the way, everybody, with me is Karen Smith, forensics expert, and Elisa Statman, author of Restless Souls, the Sharon Tate family's account of stardom, the Manson murders, and Elisa Statman, author of Restless Souls, the Sharon Tate family's account of stardom, the Manson murders, and her crusade for justice. Tell me the significance of hearing

Leslie Van Houten briefing her new lawyer. You know, what she was saying was, is that it was different. First of all, let me go back. She's explaining the murder of Rosemary and Lino LaBianca, specifically and mostly what it was like to stab Rosemary LaBianca on that night. And she said it was different than cutting a piece of meat. It was so real. And once I started, I couldn't stop. And I let... Oh, wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Elisa, I mean, I know you and Alan have listened to that bit of sound many times, but I'm just hearing it for the first time that she... And I want everybody to hear it. That she turned into an animal and let loose on the woman's back okay hold i'm just

trying to take it in what you're saying i guess this proves i i've never gotten jaded because just hearing it i think of like my mom or my husband or my children and this happening to them. Okay. Tell me again. What did you just say, Elisa? That she, as far as what the tape said, she said that it was like, it was not like cutting a piece of meat, which she had done before.

It was different than cutting a piece of meat. It was very real. And it was so real that she just wanted to keep doing it. I think that what is significant about this tape and why people need to hear it and to listen to it carefully is because this is the woman that the parole board just decided to let loose on our society. And what happens is, is that these parole boards don't look back to what happened that night. They look forward to what's happened to the criminal inside the institution and all of the wonderful things that they've done. And they need to look back, and so does the public, and remember

what these crimes were about and how horrific they were. You know, Alan, she's bringing up a really good point, Alan Duke, because I remember when Simpson, Orenthal James Simpson was paroled in Vegas and he was sitting there looking meek and mild. Of course he did kind of like pick a fight with a parole board, but they choose to ignore it. But everyone was talking about he's done his time, he, which of course he had, and that was the minimum amount of time until he came up for parole, the minimum. But that aside, when I look at him, I think of the moment that Ron Goldman is stabbed over

and over. And I think about the moment Nicole Brown's head is nearly sliced off and the screaming and the blood and the frenzy and the awfulness and the children raised without a mother, and they have the power. The Pardon and Parole Board has the power, and everybody laughed at me. That's fine. I knew that was coming when I said, I think they should keep him in.

I knew it was coming. Okay, fine. I'm not in this to be crowned Miss Sweet Potato or Miss Congeniality. I never thought that was going to happen the moment I became a prosecutor. All bets were off for congeniality. But in this case, it's even more stark to me because so many deaths, so many butchered, butchered people, Alan. Well, this is not like the O.J. Simpson in one way,

in that he was only convicted of stealing some autographed stuff in a casino, but it is definitely like it in that they weren't really looking at the original crime. They only wanted how well was he doing in prison. Back to Elisa Statman with me is Elisa, author of Restless Souls, the Sharon Tate family's account of stardom, the Manson murders and a crusade for justice and Karen L. Smith, forensics expert. You know, again, I always hear about Sharon Tate and everybody does because she's just absolutely physically beautiful. And that's the picture that we always have in our mind of her pregnant just

one of the most beautiful people I've ever seen and but there are other victims other victims that died a horrible death for instance Leno and Rosemary LaBianca I don't understand her. Tell me Leslie Van Houten's role in the murders, Elisa. Here's the crazy thing about Leslie Van Houten. As you know, they had been out the night before at Sharon's house. What Leslie Van Houten has admitted to is that when they decided to go out the second night, she knew that they were going specifically out to murder and she willingly went. There's no other reason why they were going. She can't put it off on. She thought it was going to be a robbery or whatever thousand other excuses. She knew they were going to murder and she wanted to go. And that says something a lot right there. The second thing is,

and I think that this is what has bothered the governor in the past few times that he shot down her chance of parole, is that she minimizes her role in these murders by saying that she only stabbed Rosemary 14 to 16 times in the lower back after she was dead. Only? Now, wait a minute, though. According to court records, and correct me if i'm wrong leslie van houten actually tied a pillowcase around rosemary's head and then she held rosemary down with a pillowcase can you imagine the terror of being surprised ambushed in your own home having a pillowcase pulled over your head a woman holding you down as other people stabbed her dozens of times, and then she picked up a butcher knife and stabbed the woman 14 to 16 times after

holding her down with a pillowcase over her head. Right now, let your voice be heard. You have a say in this. You can have a voice. California Governor Jerry Brown at the State Capitol, 916-445-2841. Repeat, 916-445-2841 or email governor at governor.ca.gov. Repeat, governor at governor.ca.gov. At this important juncture in criminal justice. One of the most notorious mass murders in U.S. history is once again coming to a head. Leslie Van Houten, one of the main members of the Charles Manson so-called family who committed mass murder, has been paroled by the California Pardon and Parole Board. It's now up to Governor Jerry Brown as to whether he will allow Van Houten to walk. But if you take a look at Van Houten,

you see her dressed up like a mild-mannered librarian when she's at the pardon and parole board. Listen to this. a murder that had no sense behind it. We were all almost fascinated by the thought of killing people. It had to be done. And we were the only ones that saw that it had to be done. Me and Katie and Sadie and Clem, we all went out that night. We went driving around, couldn't find any place. And I was tired. So we went to sleep. When I woke up, I heard Charlie talking to Sadie. And he said, they think it's a robbery. They're tied up. Just go on in. I've got their wallet. Just make it quick and easy.

So we went in, and the woman, she turned around and said, what are you guys doing here? The text was real calm. We're just going to take your money. We were supposed to go meet the woman and put a hood on her, because all of a sudden, she jumped up. She got the lamp, and I put her back. What's happening to Leo? And we kept, he's all right. And then Katie tried to stop him and the knife ended.

Straight out to author of Restless Souls, the Sharon Tate family's account of stardom, the Manson murders, and a crusade for justice, Elisa Statman is with me along with renowned forensics expert Karen Smith. Elisa, explain to me what Leslie Van Houten was just saying. She was, in a nutshell, Nancy, she was explaining the night of the LaBianca murders before and after they got to the house. And she was saying that they drove around looking for a victim, so she knew that they were going to murder, that they got to the LaBianca house, And she had been so calm during the driving around looking for people to butcher that she had fallen asleep. So they're driving around at night in California. And remember, Leslie Van Houten and Charles Manson were both sentenced to the death penalty.

Okay. Vincent Bugliosi prosecuted this. God rest his soul. They were given the death penalty, and then the U.S. Supreme Court, in its wisdom, reversed the death penalty for a period of years, so their DPs were thrown out, and they got life behind bars. Van Houten has spent, after she escapes death for all the murders, has spent her entire time behind bars trying to get out.

So back to you, Elisa. You're saying they're out driving around looking for somebody to butcher. That's what they're doing. Yes, that's correct. Okay, go ahead. And while they're doing that, Leslie Van Houten falls asleep. She wakes up when they get to the LaBianca house and manson has already been inside and he tells them that he's tied them up that they think it's only going to be a robbery and that they're very calm and he tells them to go in and kill them the tape then continues and it says that she went in

they got rosemary la bianca they put a pillowcase over her head, and they took her into the bedroom. Once they were in the bedroom, they started to kill Lino LaBianca in the living room. And Rosemary heard her husband being murdered and started screaming, what are you doing to Lino? At which point, they tried to start stabbing her. And Rosemary broke free of her hand bindings, grabbed the lamp cord that was attached around her neck, and started swinging at them to try and save her life. Oh, my story. So she grabs a lamp.

They tackled her. The victim grabs a lamp and starts swinging at everybody to make them stop as they're killing the husband. And what happens? They tackled her, they held her down, and they stabbed her to death. Her, Leslie Van Houten, and Patricia Kremwinkel. Now that's a visual that will give you nightmares for the rest of your life. A victim wildly swinging a lamp to keep these vultures off the husband and to save her own life.

Yeah, you know what? I'm going to be thinking about that tonight before I go to sleep. Wildly swinging a lamp to get them away, but it didn't work. Van Houten and the Manson family, out the second night of butchering on a killing spree invade the home of Lino and Rosemary LaBianca. First they terrorize them horribly before killing them. Then Van Houten holds Rosemary down as other people stab her. Then Van Houten plunges a knife into Rosemary over a dozen times. Then they write messages on the walls using the victim's blood. It wasn't just murders. It was terrorism, and I'll tell you why. Because Elisa Statman, Charles Manson, in some crazy way, was trying to start a race war. Yeah, a lot of people don't know this.

That's the whole intent behind these murders. He didn't even know these people. And he wanted the murders to get the project started by putting the city in a state of panic. A race war. Have you ever heard anything so crazy in your life, Karen Smith? I mean, when you see a crime scene, you're looking for clues. You're looking for evidence, you know, fibers, blood spatter. But the motive, they murdered all these people to start a race war?

Who would have even imagined that? That's true, Nancy. And, you know, Vincent Bugliosi did a brilliant prosecutorial move by bringing that into the courtroom and putting those pieces together for trial to get the people behind bars that needed to be there. You know, some people may question that everyone that was involved may not be behind bars quite yet. But at this point, letting Leslie Van Houten out should be off the table. You said that she received the death penalty and then it was rescinded in the 70s. She got lucky once. Now they're deciding to let her out again. I've worked hundreds of murders.

I've never heard or seen anything to this scale in my career. And I cannot imagine how the victim's families feel about this. And I think that they're being very discounted. And I think that, you know, I don't care. You can dress Leslie Van Houten in a nun's habit in a wimple and give her a doctorate in divinity. I really don't care what she's done in prison. I don't care. She's vicious. She's a horrific human being. And she is exactly where she belongs. Well, the whole thing is if we don't have enough problems, okay, simmering resentment over the past and ongoing racial tension and anger. Now we have a woman and the Manson family whose intent in these crazy, horrible crimes was to instill terror and panic, to instigate fear.

That's what it was all about. A lot of people don't know that. And as you were just saying, in 1972, the state's process for the death penalty was decided to be unconstitutional. And everybody had their DPs reversed. Everything went sideways. Her lawyer died during the trial and appeals court just gave her a new trial. I mean, it goes back and forth. It was a very rocky road and now she's up for 844-528-41 or write governor at governor.ca.gov. Listen to Charles Manson in his interview with ABC's Diane Sawyer.

I'm not a violent human being. Did you tell the women to do their witchy things? I said, if you're gonna do something, leave something witchy. Just like I would tell you, if you're gonna do something, do it well and leave something witchy. Leave a sign to let the world know that you were there. Have a good day. Did you tell them which words? No. Pig? No. Helter Skelter? No. Arise? No.

That's not my vocabulary. That's not my generation. I keep telling you that. My generation. Leslie said, in the car on the way to the LaBianca house, you said, this time, make sure they're not scared like last night. Oh, no. It might have been something like this.

Yeah, I remember something like that, but I don't remember exactly the right words. I don't remember exactly the right words, but that's a simple philosophy from China. That's a Chinese philosophy. If you're going to go to war and you're fighting your enemy and you kill him when he's afraid, you know, it's a bad omen. It's bad.

It's bad. So you try to absorb the fear with, I think the Hindus use that word, karma, to balance the karma. Did you tell them to mutilate so that it would be memorable, so that people would know something was going on? Did you tell them to do it in a memorable way? Hey, I told you what I told them. If you're going to move and you're going to do something, do it with your soul and your heart.

Do it right, man. Don't half-step on it. Did they do it right? I don't know. That's up to them. They live with that. They're responsible for their actions. I'm responsible for my actions. Is Charlie Manson crazy? Whatever that means. Sure, he's crazy as mad as a hatter. What difference does it make? You know, a long time ago, being

crazy meant something. Nowadays, everybody's crazy. So, I mean, you know, like, you know, synonymous. I mean, it's an irony, man. It's a paradox. I mean, are you crazy? Dressed in black? You think I don't know everything that goes with that black you're dressed in? Yeah. Where's your black gloves? Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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