Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BREAKING: 2-PART SPECIAL "I SURVIVED BTK SERIAL KILLER" part 1

Episode Date: November 16, 2023

 A young nurse, separated from her husband, joins friends and co-workers for an evening out after their shift. She's standing alone as her friends dance when she's approached by a well-dressed man. They dance and then continue their conversation. He says his name is Bob White and would like to see the nurse again. She agrees and a few days later, the pair meet at a local coffee bar type restaurant. A few strange comments, and a few odd questions later, the nurse realizes she has made a mistake. Her contact with this strange man must end.   Then the nurse make a stunning discovery. Bob White is really Dennis Rader.  Gina Rodriquez is the nurse and she joins Nancy Grace to tell her story of how she met and survived BTK, the sadistic serial killer that held Wichita and the nation captive in a decades long nightmare.   Joining Nancy Grace Today: Gina Rodriguez - Had a coffee date with BTK in Wichita February 1974  Dale Carson- High Profile Criminal Defense Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County), Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself”, DaleCarsonLaw.com, Twitter: @DaleCarsonLaw  Dr. Joni Johnston - Forensic psychologist and private investigator, performs risk and threat assessments on violent offenders, Author: “Serial Killers: 101 Questions True Crime Fans Ask”, Drjonijohnston.com Sheryl McCollum - Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Host of new podcast: Zone 7, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips  Sheriff Eddie Virden - Osage County, Assembled the BTK task force,  www.ocso.net   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Have you ever cheated death? I have. I can think of twice. Once when a witness pulled a long gun on me and my investigator and I jumped off a porch. And the other when I nearly drowned and my now husband saved me. I can think of those two times I cheated death. There are a lot of near-hit stories, aren't there? Well, you are about to meet a woman who has, without a doubt, cheated death in the form of BTK, Bide, Torture, Kill. The dog catcher turned serial killer Dennis Rader.

That's right. This woman met up with him for a date of sorts. She got a sixth sense just before they left alone. And she lived to tell the story. This coming out now, apparently the dog catcher turned serial killer believed investigations into him were cooling off just days before Sheriff Eddie Verdon

announces a national task force to connect him to unsolved cold cases. Now, remember, BTK, Dennis Rader, is lounging right now while we're all working. He's lounging, getting three hots and a cot. No threat of the death penalty. Writing his memoirs, speaking to authors and admirers who have apparently fallen under his spell. Yes, that's true. He's lounging right now. But watch out, BTK, because some jurisdictions still have the death penalty. Talking about old Sparky, the needle. Don't get too comfy. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here on Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111.

First of all, take a listen to this. During an investigation, investigators do not like to share information with the media because they don't want anything to jeopardize the investigation however unless you're in the media or law enforcement you might not know what can be released to the public so homeowners of a property in butler county kansas say sheriff's deputies and investigators were on their property for seven hours looking for evidence related to a missing persons case they couldn't remember the name of the person they were looking for but they did remember the person was 16. Cynthia Don Kenny was 16 when she vanished. The property owners added that the Osage County Sheriff's Office came to the property in March. At that time, search dogs were brought out, but the property owners say nothing was found. Alina Burrows with CSI Crime Scene Confidential

told KSN-TV, quote, we have received information that Dennis Rader has been on this property at some point in time. The National BTK Task Force is here to follow up on those leads. This, as one of three women depicted in sketches made by BTK Dennis Rader showing girls bound in little shorty nightgown looking outfits is positively identified. One of his drawings, he would apparently take photos of himself dressed in the victim's clothes, wearing wigs, he would wear makeup, and he would bind himself and take selfies. Then he would also sketch, draw what we believe to be some of his still unidentified victims bound about to be tortured and killed. But right now, a woman who I believe truly cheated death, an angel was there with her when she parted ways with Dennis Rader. Gina Rodriguez is with us and she is telling you her story. Also with us, who will be weighing in,

renowned Sheriff Eddie Verdon, who has assembled the BTK National Task Force. Cheryl McCollum, a member of the Task Force, forensic expert, star of Zone 7, and you can find her at coldcasecrimes.org. She's the founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Dr. Joni Johnson, a forensic psychologist and investigator and high-profile trial lawyer out of the Jacksonville jurisdiction, Dale Carson. Why is he here? He's also a former FBI agent. But first, to our special guest, Gina Rodriguez. Ms. Rodriguez, thank you for being with us.

I'm glad to be able to speak. Boy, am I glad to hear your voice, because you're the first known survivor that can tell me about BTK. Everybody else is dead in horrible, horrible fashion. Gina, you have no idea how important your testimony, your story could be, it may help other women jog their memories. Tell me about when you met Dennis Rader. It was February of 1974, and my coworkers, we were nurses at a local hospital and after our evening shift we would go to this disco bar just to chill out before we went home to call it a day. And it was a Saturday night and one of my coworkers and I, we were, we had the

evening off, the weekend off, so we decided we would go to this disco bar that was connected to a hotel. And I'm sitting there with her and she goes out to dance, leaving me sitting alone. And this man that I had watched, he was pacing back and forth. He wore a maroon suit and had on white shoes. He came over to ask me to dance, and it was a slow dance, and he talked to me and he asked me what my name was and told me, tell me about yourself, which I did. And I just told him that, you know, my age and that I was just recently divorced and where I worked. And, um, and then I said, well, tell me about yourself. What is your name? And he said, Bob White. And he, he's

trying to explain to me why he has white shoes on. He said people, he wore white shoes, had them on because he lived in California and the people in California wore white shoes all year round. And then the dance, well, first of all, I said, well, what kind of business are you here in Wichita on? He said one word to me. He said McConnell. And that's an Air Force base here. So he escorts me back to my chair after the dance, and in a little bit, he comes over. He tells me he has to leave, but that he would like to see me again.

And against my better judgment, I've never been taught to do this, I gave him my phone number. And he told me he would call me on a Tuesday. That was the day I had to return to work, evening shift. He calls me, and we agree to meet at a restaurant. This restaurant was in a mall, a very popular mall, just down the street from the hospital. He tells me he might be a little late, but I arrived around 1 p.m., and when I go in, I'm expecting to be there first because he told me he might be late. Well, when I walked in there, he was standing there waiting for me, and he was totally different.

He did not even look like the same man. He was dressed in what I would call work clothes that someone would be working out in the cold. He had a hat on that had ear flaps to protect the ears. He had like a heavy jacket. He had gloves on. He had, I believe, khaki pants and boots. And he had a bag with him that looked out of place. And I looked at it and he told me that it had his books in it. And I said, well, I thought you had said you might be late. And he said, yes, I had to take a bus all the way down hillside from WSU. You know, I couldn't help but notice he had a very expensive wristwatch on.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, with us, you are hearing Gina Rodriguez, who many, including myself, believe cheated death on not one, but two encounters with Dennis Rader, the dog caster turned serial killer, commonly known as BTK, bind, torture, kill. Now, Gina, you've told us this was Feb, February 1974.

You and your friends, your fellow nurses, often would stop by a disco after work, especially on weekends, to basically decompress. This night, you go to the disco. It's connected to a hotel. Your friend gets up to dance, leaving you alone. You are approached by a man you now know to be Dennis Rader. You had seen him pacing back and forth in the disco. He approaches you wearing a maroon suit and white shoes, which you distinctly recall. He gave a name, Bob White, which sounds like a fake name, but that said, he explained he was wearing white shoes because he was from California and quote, people in California wear white shoes all year long. Okay. You uncharacteristically give him your phone number when he had to leave. Then you agree to

meet him for lunch at a restaurant near the hospital in a popular mall. Smart. There are a lot of people around. You thought he was going to be late. You arrive around 1 p.m. He's there, but this time no more in a suit of white shoes. He looks completely different, as if he had changed his whole look for you. He was wearing work clothes with a big bag, a hat with flaps over the ears, a heavy jacket, as if he were working out in the cold. He says he takes a bus all the way down from WSU. What in your area is WSU?

It's Wichita State University, and Hillside is a very popular street well-traveled. So he took a bus he says from Hillside to meet you at the mall. What mall was it? Harry Street Mall. It's just east of St. Joseph Hospital. Okay so you're at lunch. What happens? We go to sit down. And by then I'm becoming really nervous because it wasn't like I had remembered him at all. I even thought, do I have the right man? But he seemed to recognize me. So we sit down and he starts some conversation about a parochial school and tells me he hated them because he was once in an orphanage. And then it leads on into he asked me, he said, he said, who do you live with?

And he wanted specifically who I live with. I told him my mother my dad my two children and my brother he said is there ever any time that you're alone and I said no people are around me all the time so we have a little bit more conversation and then he said do you know of a place that we can be alone? He said, because I do these things, or we are going to be doing some things that no one can see, hear, or know about. And I insisted I didn't know of any place. Then we go on into the conversation. He tells me that he does photography and that he uses a Polaroid and that he often did some of these things at his parents' house. He never

mentioned California again. Where did he indicate his parents were? He didn't indicate. I just assumed California, but now I know his parents were in Wichita. And his parents lived in Wichita around Seneca Street. So then we changed the conversation. It's hard to have conversation with him. And I realized I was too afraid to leave. What do you mean by that? You were too afraid to leave? I was afraid that if I tried to leave, he would follow me and maybe get me alone. I was really afraid. So I thought you're going to have to sit here until it's time for you to go to work. So I thought I've got a lot of conversation to try to make with him. So there was pauses and suddenly he appears very upset. And he says to me, I have a problem with this city. And I'm thinking, well, you're from California. And I said, well, what kind of problem?

And he said, city politics. And me, I was just trying to make conversation about things in Wichita. And I said, did you hear about that family that was murdered a few weeks ago? And he says, yeah, they found a boot print in the snow outside the window. And then he said, and yeah, the detective sure had a mess to clean up. And I said, oh, I said, well, how would you know that? I said, do you work with law enforcement? And he said, no. And I said, well, how did you know that then? And he said, the chief of security at WSU. And so we talk about a few more things and suddenly he gets angry or looks angry with me. And he said, you find a place because I do these things and I take pictures

and record while I'm doing them and then he indicates that the bag he had with him it was sitting on the floor in the restaurant he says I have my things my equipment and in this bag and I'm sitting there, you know, just frightened and thinking, how am I going to get out of here? And so we have some more conversation and he asked me if, he said he had to go to Helzberg's, which was a jewelry store in the mall to visit her friend.

And he called her by name and said, do you know her? And I said, no, I didn't know her. And finally, it's really, I'm really, I have to leave. It's, I'm almost late for work. And I jumped up real abruptly. I think I ran out of the restaurant. I don't know if the coffee was even paid for, but, um, I start on the way to the car and he follows me. And I looked up, put my hand up, like, stop. I, I said, I'm going to be late for work. And he said, well, I'll call you on Thursday. And I thought, okay, I've got to come up with an excuse before then.

Then he tells me he's going back into the mall to go visit his friend at Helzberg's. So I go on to work. And two days later, it's Valentine's Day. I remember that specifically. It was my first Valentine's after my husband left me. And when he calls me at one o'clock, I promptly tell him, I can't see you again. I am taking my husband back. My kids really need him. And sarcastically, he says this poem to me. It's something about little lady in a shoe locking up and tying up my kids. And I said, well, what do you mean by that? What is that supposed to mean? And he said, well, you know, little lady can't handle her kids, so she has to

take hubby back. And shortly after that, I said, well, and he said oh Gina and I said yes and he said roses are red peonies are pink I cannot remember the third line but the fourth line was I'll sure be blue without you and we hung up and I thought about this man but I always pictured him being back in California and when something would happen in Wichita I would think of him but think oh no he's in California well then things around a few years well let, let me take this back. Two years from that date, and I don't know who this was, but my husband and I, I had taken him back. We went to a Valentine party at a sorority. And my babysitter, her parents were going to be at the same party, and they asked me if my babysitter could spend the night with us because they were going to be out really late.

I said that would be fine. Well, we went to the party. When I come back, we walk in the door. I meet the babysitter. There's tears in her eyes. Her lip is trembling. She said, there's been a man calling for you all evening long, keeps asking for you. And she said, I looked out the window and there was a man standing in your yard. And I don't know if I just had a false sense of security. I can't remember,

but I knew my husband was there and that things would probably be okay. We didn't see anything unusual when we pulled in the drive. So we all go to bed. My babysitter's sleeping on the couch. My children are sleeping in their rooms and about 2.15, 2.30, I wake up and I hear a car pulling in the drive. You can hear there's crackling from ice on the driveway. And I nudged my husband. I said, there's someone here. Let me get it because I didn't want anyone to persuade anyone that they needed inside the house.

So I go down the hallway and he's banging on the front door and I said, who is it? And they wouldn't say, use any words. I said, who is it? What do you want? And they're just pounding on the door. But they're making a growling type sound like they were angry. And then when the door, when he couldn't get in the door, he reaches over to my living room window and is trying to get in that. And then he goes over to my little girl's room and tries to get in there. Did you see his face? No, I didn't. But my little girl said she saw the shadow of him, and it was a man. She said, there must have been a full moon because she said, I could see his shadow, and he was trying to get into my bedroom.

And she said, I was trying to tell you, but you were already down the hall. What month would this have been, Gina? It's February around 12th through the 14th because we've been through to a Valentine party. And it was in 1976. It was two years later, almost to the date. Got it. So I'm standing there just frozen because by then this person is at the front door and he sounds like he's using tools to try to get in through the doorknob you know like he's doing something to the doorknob and I thought oh my god he's they're trying to get in here anyway and about that time my husband flies down the hall and he said get the hell out of here. I have a gun. And that person flew off the porch and must have backed out of the drive.

I don't even think I heard the car go. And I did call the police and tell them what had happened. And they said, do you want us to come out? And I said, oh, I guess it's not necessary. They're gone now. So that's pretty much, I mean, there were some other things that happened in between there, things that I thought must be my imagination. Well, like what? When I would come home from work sometimes, it would seem like someone had been in my house.

Things just didn't seem right. And I have a necklace that's missing. It's not an expensive necklace, but it had been given to me for a Christmas present. And I thought I might have some articles of clothing missing. And at that point, some point, I had a driver's license missing. But my purse, I always kept my driver's license in my purse. And I never was without it. So I don't know how anyone would have got access to my driver's license. When did this happen? This would have happened between probably 1974, 1977. It was sometime during that.

It was probably, it just kept happening on and off. Someone was calling me on the phone, and they were playing that song, Lay Down Sally, a lot. And then some man kept calling and just harassing me. And I kept saying, you've got the wrong number. Quit calling here. And I said, there's no Sally here. And finally, I told him I was going to call the telephone company. And I called the telephone company, thought I was talking to an employee making a complaint. And the man that had been calling me, every time I'd say, you wrong number he said oh I'm so sorry well when I was talking making the complaint the

employee or what I thought was an employee said oh I'm so sorry and I mean I thought well that's the man I'm making the complaint about. At some point, and I don't remember when, I don't remember the time frames other than those dates that I gave you, but somewhere in between this window. So some man knocked on my door. He said he was from the phone company and that they had noticed trouble on my line and that someone had tampered with my phone lines outside my house. Guys, you are hearing Gina Rodriguez, who met up with Dennis Rader. Dennis Rader, known as BTK by Torture Kill and has lived to tell the tale. Gina, when did you realize that the man you had met not once but twice and possibly more unbeknownst to you is in fact Dennis Rader? I began to get suspicious around 1977 when the Wichita police started making information available, like Wichita

had a serial killer and this is what he was like, this is what he did. They said he said poems about his victims and I thought, well, this man said poems to me. And then when BTK said, what shall I call myself? Shall I call myself the hillside strangler? Should I call myself the poetic strangler? Or should I call myself BTK? Well, I identified with that because he had said poems to me, this man had. He had said he had to take a bus all the way down WSU. And I began getting suspicious, but then I would say, no, that man's in California. Shortly after that, we moved to Arizona. But when I would come back for a visit, I would ask everyone, what do you think happened? And

they said, well, we heard he's either in prison or he's dead because it was just so silent. And then in Arizona, about maybe three years later, my daughter calls me. She's crying and she says, Mother, BTK's back. And I said, oh, no, honey. I said, that lawyer just made a book. And she says, no, he's back. So I get on the internet. I look, and sure enough, he has resurfaced.

So they're asking for tips. So I call on a Saturday morning, and I give my tips. I was sure I knew who they were looking for by then. But I couldn't give him a name because he told me his name was Bob White, which, you know, that's kind of a joke now. I fell for it. And so I was watching everything about their investigations. And when they found him, I was waiting on the pictures. And sure enough, I seen his pictures from what he looked like when I met him that day. You know, that that time frame, I seen his Betler County picture. That was him. I looked at some of his other pictures and just a little tiny older version of him and then his later vision but um vision uh version but um i watched

him on his court trial he walks like him he talks like him he looks like him just older uh you know i mean i can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be. When you saw his picture of his younger self, did you know that was Bob White? Absolutely. Joining me right now is an all-star panel to make sense of what we have just heard from Gina Rodriguez. 100% certain that she met up on a date with BTK, not meeting him once, but twice. First, to now renowned Sheriff Eddie Verdon. Sheriff Eddie Verdon, I know that you and Cheryl, like myself, are part of the new National Task Force. So I know there are things that you can't discuss,

such as ongoing things right now, additional victims you're looking at. But what this woman, Gina Rodriguez, is telling you, from a survivor's point of view, should open up a world of possibilities as to other victims, women that have gone missing and never been recovered in this area during this time period. Because now we are seeing it's not just him finding people on his dog catching route, about him going to bars and finding women. We are learning a whole new MO, modus operandi method of operation.

What does this mean to you, Sheriff? Well, it's not surprising at all, Nancy. Right now, I'm looking at one of the items collected back in 2005 in the search forms off one of his drawings, and he's got a newspaper clipping or detective magazine clipping that says, tragedy in Lover's Lane, naked nurse had a date with murder. As you know, Hedge, I believe, worked at the hospital. I'm not sure if it's the same hospital. But my understanding is she worked at a hospital or met in medical field uh there in wichita area as well who is this hedge one of his convicted uh victims yes and in my mind that

connects gina even more so to btk because apparently to you cheryl m McCollum, that was a hunting ground. The nurses leaving the hospital at night. Absolutely. He was known to stalk. He was known to drive around. He was known to get fixated. The story that she just told, the reason it's so critical to me, is when you are looking at any cold case, as you well know, Nancy, you and I talk about this all the time. People coming forward, additional witnesses help fill in and build that timeline. And what she's doing, again, she's giving us a date and a time and a location that fits, that makes sense to us. And that is so critical. And I just appreciate Ms. Rodriguez's bravery.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I want to talk about Maureen Hedge, who is, of course, another victim of BTK. Sheriff, that is a case that has already been adjudicated. What can you tell us about that? I'm specifically interested in similarities between Maureen Hedge's case and what Gina Rodriguez is telling us. Well, I mean, she worked at a hospital, is my understanding. A widow, I know that, without a husband at home, which is one of the things that he kept and saved with his trophies and with his drawings. And you can associate crimes or similar crimes to those. You know,

one thing we located was a clipping where it says, when fantasies become reality. Sheriff Verdon, isn't it true that in Maureen Hedges' case, we learned that her phone connection, the phone line, had been cut? The phone line was cut that allowed Dennis Rader to sneak in the back door. Yes, you know, he cut on a lot of the convicted cases. He cut the phone lines okay gina rodriguez i know you've made the id of btk and i know that the phone company told you your line had been tampered with when you hear that this is an mo specifically as it relates to marine hedge but others as well. What goes through your mind? That was one of his things that he did was cut or mess the telephone lines and play games on the phone. To you, Cheryl McCollum, I got to tell you, many of the things that Gina has just told us, I don't know that she realizes. You know, when you have a victim telling their story, they're

telling you their individual story while we as prosecutors or investigators are connecting all these dots to other similar cases, fingerprint cases. The fact that her children were there, the fact that he thought maybe her husband was back, maybe, maybe not, that would not have concerned BTK. The fact that she may be there with children, in my mind, would only, it would be even more incendiary to him. He would kill a whole family, no problem, and molest and kill the children as well, specifically going for the mother. Well, when you look at the Hedge case and what Ms. Rodriguez is telling us, Dennis Rader

lived in the same community as Ms. Hedge. So it was easy for him to keep an eye on her, even very casually. She's working in her yard. They're passing each other. He lived on the same block as Hedge. Absolutely. So what would Ms. Rodriguez, what she's painting this picture is with the phone calls and perhaps going by there, it could very well be a similar MO that he's keeping tabs on her. He's playing this cat and mouse where I can catch you and let you go anytime I want until I decide it's time to kill you. Take a listen to Dennis Rader in his own words. She was chosen. I went through the different phases, stalking phase, and since she lived down the street from me, I could watch the coming and

going quite easily. As before, I was going to have a sexual fantasy, so I brought my hit kit. And lo and behold, her car was there. I thought, gee, she's not supposed to be home. So I very carefully snuck into the house, kind of like a cat burglar. And after checking the house, she wasn't there. So about that time, the doors rattled. So I went back to one of the bedrooms and hid back there in one of the bedrooms. She came in with a male visitor.

He left. I waited until three hours in the morning and then proceeded to sneak into her bedroom and flip the lights on, or I think the bathroom lights. I didn't want to flip her lights on. She screamed and I jumped on the bed and strangled her manually. You indicated this woman lived down the street from you. Did she know you? Casually, we'd walk by and wave. She liked to work in her yard as well as I liked to work. It was just a neighborly type thing. It wasn't anything personal. I mean, just a neighbor. You know, there's so many similarities between what Gina Rodriguez is telling us and what

we know about BTK. Joining me right now, former FBI agent, former police officer in Miami-Dade, author of Arrest Proof Yourself. You can find him at DaleCarsonLaw.com. Dale, jump in. You know, Gina's repetition of the facts is so precise that it leads me to believe that she really was frightened when she met that individual. And as a result, it's concentrated that memory in a way that's immutable. And I find that just absolutely fascinating that she went through this ritualization of conversation with him where he lays out all the parameters.

He's in a bar and he is looking for potential victims. And what I find really fascinating is that this same methodology got more complex as time went on, as we know from the other cases. And frankly, this tells me that there are many other victims who may have had a close call with this sort of encounter with the individual who may now, as Magic Cheryl says, come forward and recount similar circumstances. Another really interesting point is that BTK said, look, tell me where we can go to be private he's not setting up in advance where they're going to go he's asking the victim to tell him where it is they can go to find some

privacy and that's a new aspect altogether from my perspective and we know a new hunting ground in in discos and clubs near that hospital. But that's an ordinary hunting ground for serial killers. I mean, they set a pattern. That's where they find them. I mean, we see this with Bundy. We see the similarities between the two killers. And, you know, if the evidence would find that genie on his necklace, it would be really fascinating

if he saved that as a trophy that would tie things together even more directly. I think that Cheryl does, that this is going to bring forth other witnesses that may be able to give him a timeline of where he was, what he was doing, and what his methodology was, because his

methodology is something women generally need to be aware of. I mean, you know, no disrespect to you, but there were a whole bunch of red flags that flew in your face that you sort of ignored. And the result of that is, I think that we all want to believe the best. Hold on, Dale Carson. Not everybody is like you or me or Sheriff Verdon or Cheryl. We're in this business. I'm constantly on alert. When I wake up in the morning, when I go to a hotel, the first thing I do is look under the bed. I mean, that's the way we live.

Perhaps you're right. Because that's what we're used to. But normal people not in this business, they don't do that. FYI, Dale Carson. That's why they're at such risk and why we need to educate people that when these red flags appear to take a step back. True. Because they're clearly in danger. True.

In my view. Dr. Joni Johnson with us, forensic psychologist and private investigator, author of Serial Killers, 101 Questions True Crime Fans Ask. Dr. Joni Johnson, weigh in. Well, several things just jump in my mind. This was 1974. I'm not sure that even, you know, I would have been cautious or certainly as cautious as I am now. I think there's been a tremendous amount of progress made

in terms of educating people about dangers and safety and those kinds of things and I guess the other thing is you know that first encounter Gina that you had with some mr. white didn't that you know nothing seemed particularly off about it it doesn't seem like and then when you met him again I can only imagine the shock it must have been to see this person who doesn't even you know look the same act the same or that. So, I have to kind of take the opposite, you know, opinion of Dale to some extent in that I think you did see a ton of red flags, and I think you

listened to them, you know, in terms of thinking of ways to get out of that lunch with him, being afraid. The detail that you used, just like Dale was saying, the detail that you used in describing your memories of that to me are so credible. Because I think when people have strong emotions in a situation and clearly you are afraid, they do remember things, remember details, the white shoes, the suit, the things he said. I mean, everything that you're telling me, you know, just wreaks the credibility. And so those are the two things that pop to mind immediately. But, you know, I do think that, again, just to kind of reiterate that, you know, red flags, you know, can be waving and we're all different in terms when we recognize that. But I don't know that I see anything or heard anything from what you did

that makes me feel like you put yourself in any unnecessary danger. You know, giving your phone out to somebody that you just met, I think we've all done that at certain points, hopefully not anymore. But other than that, I think that, you know, you need to take some credit for the fact that you did listen to your instinct. Please join us again tomorrow for part two of Gina Rodriguez, who gives her chilling story of her encounter with BTK by torture kill Dennis Rader. She is the woman who lived. Goodbye, friend.

This is an I Heart Podcast.