Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BREAKING 2-PART SPECIAL: 'I SURVIVED BTK SERIAL KILLER' Part 2

Episode Date: November 17, 2023

A young nurse, separated from her husband, joins friends and co-workers for an evening out after their shift. She’s standing alone as her friends dance when she’s approached by a well-dressed man. They dance and then continue their conversation. He says his name is Bob White and would like to see the nurse again. She agrees and a few days later, the pair meet at a local coffee bar-type restaurant. A few strange comments, and a few odd questions later, the nurse realizes she has made a mistake. Her contact with this strange man must end. Then, the nurse makes a stunning discovery. Bob White is really Dennis Rader. Gina Rodriguez is the nurse and she joins Nancy Grace to tell her story of how she met and survived BTK, the sadistic serial killer that held Wichita and the nation captive in a decades-long nightmare. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Gina Rodriguez - Had a coffee date with BTK in Wichita in February 1974  Dale Carson – High-profile Criminal Defense Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, and Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County); Author: “Arrest-Proof Yourself;” Twitter: @DaleCarsonLaw Dr. Joni Johnston – Forensic Psychologist and Private Investigator (performs risk and threat assessments on violent offenders); Author: “Serial Killers: 101 Questions True Crime Fans Ask” Sheryl McCollum – Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder and Host of “Zone 7” podcast; Twitter: @149Zone7 Sheriff Eddie Virden– Osage County Sheriff’s Office; Assembled the BTK task force See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Bind, torture, kill. Dennis Rader, the dog catcher turned serial killer. We know he murdered 10 people. He's confessed to that. How many more victims are out there still unaccounted for? How many families wonder what happened to mom? What happened to my sister? What happened to my daughter, my granddaughter? Maybe you can help us. Coming forward now, Gina Rodriguez to tell the story

of her hookup, her encounter with BTK. Can it dislodge memories from other women? Can they help us establish more of a modus operandi method of operation and help us connect BTK Dennis Rader to other victims? I know they're out there. I've got no doubt in my mind right now. BTK Dennis Rader is undergoing a valiant attempt to avoid the death penalty, which so far he's managed to escape. In the days leading up to many of his murders, Dennis Rader would take special care to stalk the victim, figuring out their routine, even scoping out their workplace. Listen.

If you read much about serial killers, they go through what they call the different phases. That's one of the phases they go through as a trolling stage. Basically, you're looking for a victim at that time. And you could be trolling for months or years. But once you lock in on a certain person, then you become stalking. And that might be several

of them, but you really hone in on that person. They basically become the... That's the victim. That's what you want. Here, we see the same thing happening, Sheriff Verdon, with Gina. He has told me directly that he has stalked victims for years. Again, the bar is spot on because, you you know he went over one project he called it the blackout bar where where he was working on a victim from that location uh so you know what what she's saying

matches you know not just his patterns but but it matches with what we already know and has confirmed through his own stuff that that that he used bars found victims from bars that that he stocked them for years you know we've got again what i shared about you about the news paper clipping to one of the drawings you know where where a nurse had a date with death uh it's it's you know it's's exactly what I would have expected. And again, her coming forward, we know through his writings and timeline that he created, he's got markings of kidnappings where there wasn't a death involved with it. You know, Cheryl McCollum, when you and I worked together in the courts and in the justice system, we weighed witness and victim's credibility very carefully. I would go over a story over and over and over with a victim or a witness before I would

put them on the stand to see if their story ever changed or if they added to the story. Adding to the story wouldn't really bother me. That would just mean that they hadn't been asked the right question yet. Changing the story is a whole nother thing. But you also look for detail in the story. For instance, in important times of your life, sometimes you can remember a minute detail. Like I can remember what I wore to my fiance's funeral. It was the dress of my sister's. I never wore it again. But right now I can remember it.

It's funny, Cheryl, funny, odd, that a lot of other facts are all a blur to me. It's just a big blur. Did you hear Gina describe so perfectly what this guy had on a maroon suit and she remembers white shoes, but yet when she meets him for lunch, he has a completely different outfit. He has a different affect. He looks like he works outside. Do you think that had anything to do with his job as a dog catcher? I had the opportunity to speak with Rodriguez twice before today.

What sticks out for me, I believe that his whole persona was different because his motivation was different. This was no longer to meet somebody, to stalk somebody, and select somebody. This was to get that person alone and harm them. He looked different. He acted different because what he was about that evening was completely different. Take a listen to the dog catcher killer. Changed my clothes, what I call my hit clothes. Hit clothes? Hit clothes. Basically different, you know, things that I need to get rid of later.

Not the same kind of clothes that I had on. I don't know what other better word to use than crime clothes or hit clothes. I just call them hit clothes. What was his outfit as a dog catcher, Sheriff Verdon? So at that time, Nancy, so you have the time frame correct. So he came back from the military. He worked for Laker's Grocery Store for a while. And then he got on with Coleman uh camping supplies and then moved to

Cessna and he he lost his job with Cessna in 73 uh towards the fall and that's when he started college on his GI bill his wife was working and and from the end of 73 until he got hired in the later part of 74 for ADT, he was unemployed during the time that she's describing. And then he worked for ADT from 74 until approximately 88 when he was laid off from ADT. Then he went to work for the census through 89 and 90. And he started with Park City as a dog catcher in 91. Gotcha. So that would not apply to this time period. You really attracted my interest on something you just said. You mentioned he had been in the military and he worked at Cessna and he told Gina that he, she said, why are you here? And he says, McConnell, McConnell Air Force Base. What do you make of that, Dale Carson?

Well, I listened to this and I'm fascinated to hear these details. The ADT connection obviously allows him to understand pairs on phone lines and the ability to cut phone lines for early alarm systems and to run pairs to other locations where he could listen to victims' phone calls is really fascinating to me because the technology back then allowed you to know if you knew a phone number you could find a location now that's no longer as true as it used to be but it certainly was true then and of course his employment with these various agencies allowed him to have access to the tools and equipment particularly ADT necessary to trap those lines and to use them to his own devices. So when I first heard Jenna talk about the guy that she called and reported the bad phone calls to was the same voice, I thought, well, that can't possibly be right. But now that I understand that his knowledge and information,

the 88-8 DT trap lines, which used the telephone pairs, could have been easily used by him in order to maintain surveillance on his victims. Take a listen to Dennis Rader in his own words. Anyway, I walked from a car as a telephone repairman. As I walked there, I donned the telephone helmet. I had a briefcase. Went to one other address just to kind of size up the house. I'd walked by it a couple times, but I wanted to check it a little bit more.

As I approached it, I could hear a piano sound. And I went to this other door, and we were recently working on telephone repairs in the area. And I went to her and knocked on the door and asked her if I could come check her telephone lines inside. Now, isn't it true that Rader had joined the Air Force when we say he was in the military? He was in the Air Force.

He did his basic training at Lackland, and then he moved on to another air base. And then when she asks him, tell me again, Gina Rodriguez, how McConnell Air Force Base came up. When I was asking him about himself and he had told me he lived in California but was here on business in Wichita. And I said, what type of business are you on? And all he said to me was McConnell, which is the Air Force Base. He didn't volunteer anymore. Just McConnell. You know, it's another interesting fact. There's so much she said is interesting dr joni johnson when he was saying that while he was claiming to be

from california he said he was angry at the city of wichita because of local politics which means he's not living in california but that said when she, Gina Rodriguez, asked him, did you hear about that family that got killed? He knew about the track in the snow and he let it slip that, wow, cops sure had a lot of a big mess to clean up. There are several interesting things he says, and some of them are contradictory to each other. You know, you're right. If you're from California, you wouldn't expect to know as much about local politics as he's claiming he does. And then the murder situation. The other thing that kind of jumped out to me was he talks about growing up in an orphanage or spending some time in an orphanage. And then he makes some comment

about doing things in his parents' house. So I'm not sure what was going on with him in terms of not being able to keep his story straight, but there were several contradictions in some of the things he was saying. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Sheriff Verdon joining us, who has now assembled the BTK Task Force. Sheriff Verdon, what do we know about his upbringing? Well, you know, the real story is his father was in the military when he was born. They lived in Columbus, Kansas. His father came back from service and returned to that area and

then moved from Columbus to Wichita for employment and they moved to Wichita I believe somewhere when Dennis was four or five years old and they were there but one one thing unfortunately from the last 11 months i've learned a lot about dennis raider some things that really stick out to me from what she said dennis had went to california uh on his return back from overseas to military. So he had been in California when he returned in 70. Additionally, Mr. Otero's watch was taken. She mentioned he had a nice watch on that was a military type watch that was taken from Mr. Otero. And we know Dennis said he kept that watch for years. Addition to that, Mr. Otero had also been in the Air Force and had some relationships

with people still there. So, you know, when the time frame is that she's given us would have been shortly after that Otero murder. So, you know, of course, that would be on my mind as well, that he had just retired from the Air Force. He's missing a watch, you know, and Dennis is describing, from what it sounds, you know, how gruesome the scene was at the Otero murders. So there is just so much with what she's brought forth. You know, I hope to be able to meet with her soon, go over a lot of details. You know, I know from going through a lot of the things that we've researched, he did have a lot of men's watches.

There was a tremendous amount of jewelry recovered. So again, it's a good possibility. So her story to me is very spot on, matches what I've learned. And again, I think there's possibilities that we might be able to confirm her being with him through, number one, the bag maybe that he had. He retained those things for a long time. We've got pictures and descriptions of watches. So I'm looking forward to looking harder into what happened to her. And again, the phone calls, there's other victims out there that we've learned had received different phone calls. Rader himself told me that like the Oteros, he had called them at one point, you know, basically confirming

they were home and seeing if a mail answered, stuff like that. So there's a lot here that is really huge to me. Take a listen to Dennis Rader. That time I approached him and told him I was wanted in California. I needed some car. Basically the same thing that I told the Oteros. I went through the house, kind of cleaned it up. It's called the right-hand rule.

You go from room to room. Picked everything up. I think I took Mr. Otero's watch. I guess I took a radio. I forgot about that, but apparently I took a radio. Why did you take these things? I don't know. I have no idea. So you went through, were you looking for something? Well, some personal items, yes. I took some personal items from there.

Did you take personal items in every one of these incidents? I did on the hedge. I don't remember anything at Vicki's place. We have Charles. We've got the watch and the radio. I don't think I did any at Bright's. Vianne's? No, I don't think so. Fox? Yes, I picked some things from Fox.

It was hit and miss. Speaking of that signature in my mind, and I'd like to was hit and miss. Speaking of that, it's a signature in my mind. And I'd like to hear Cheryl and Dale jump in on this. And Gina, did you ever find that driver's license or that missing necklace or those missing clothes? No. What clothing specifically went missing? It was a, and I had received it as a Christmas gift. It was a red bra.

A red bra? Uh-huh. It was a red bra. A red bra? Uh-huh. It was a Christmas present of mine. And the necklace, do you remember the necklace? What was that like? Yes, it was on a long gold chain, and it was a circular that had several different rhinestones in it, kind of like a mother's ring or something. It was multicolored, like ruby, emerald, diamond,

and it was in a cluster on a round circle. And you mentioned the red bra, the necklace, and the driver's license. Did you ever find your driver's license? Never. You know, it's very well known, Cheryl McCollum, that driver's licenses and jewelry and lingerie are prime souvenirs taken by serial killers. And we know BTK took all of these things from his victims. Well, Jenna, you know, never left her purse without some place where anyone could have access to it. So what that argues is that she's correct. Someone was in the house and may even have been in the house when she was

there asleep and the pocketbook fully unattended. And Cheryl McCollum, we also know, speaking of the souvenirs, that he would toy with his victims. He would stalk them for a long time, call them, tamper with their phones, everything that Gina is saying. And I have no reason to doubt her because her story is very rich in detail. It's very rich in detail. And like I said, I've had a chance to read her emails, to talk to her twice. Now hear her again today. Her story has never changed. And one thing about Dennis Rader, I'd like to always point out, he gave himself a nickname. It could have been anything, but he picked BTK for bind, torture, kill. Those are action words. That's the order in what he did to his victims. It's a confession. Okay, so what does

that have to do with what I just asked you about taking the souvenirs and how her story fits exactly in with other cases that he's already confessed to. Because if you listen to the confessions, he tells you exactly what he did, what he took, what he kept. That's all public. That's how we know about the watch. So when he tells you what he's about, and then Ms. Rodriguez comes on and says, this is what he told me. This is the order that he wanted me to do something. It fits. He's telling her, I've got a bag. And nobody can see it.

Nobody can hear it. We need to be alone. I've got tools in here that I'm going to use on you. That goes right to bind and torture. She just fortunately saved her life. Listen. I had a briefcase, whatever I had laying around, ropes, tape, cords, I threw that in there, you know, whatever that I had that I brought in the house.

And you brought that to the bride residence also? Now, there is some, I think it was some basic stuff, but I don't remember bringing total stuff like I did to some of the others. Was this a kit that you had prepared? Yes, I called it my kit kit. Another interesting point, and I want to circle back to

him musing about should his moniker be the poetic strangler because he wrote and recited a poem to Gina on her last known conversation with him over the phone where he mentioned something about roses are red panties are pink missing third line and without you I'll be blue something to that effect is that normal for btk sheer verdon is it true that he wanted to be called considered being

called the poetic strangler he came up with with many different options for himself and then settled on btk uh again we know his relations with with threes triangles uh you know btk is a three and that's that's the one he chose and we believe it's it's because of his fascination with the eternal triangle and kind of the uh the whole basis of of how he lived his life you know to this day, when three comes up, he gets excited. So I think he settled with BTK simply because of the threes. But he considered many things, trying to figure out what would best suit him. What do you make of that, Dr. Joni Johnson, that he wished to be known as the, quote, poetic strangler? That's quite the dichotomy.

It really is. I mean, I think that just hearing the conversation he had with law enforcement or this idea of what am I going to call myself, I think it just speaks to an incredible amount of narcissism, you know, in terms of just... And also, you know, unfortunately, the level of enjoyment I think he's experiencing around this. And I think this really did consume his life, even though he led his life in somewhat

of a dichotomy. I think he really was thinking about this all the time. To Dale Carson, the dichotomy of wanting to be known as the poetic strangler. This guy's a brutal killer. He'll wipe out a whole family and then dress himself up in their clothes and bind himself with ropes. I don't know how he did it. One, he was practically hanging upside down and then took Polaroid photos of himself. I mean, why would he want to be known as anything connected to poetry? Well, the many cases that I've handled dealing with sex offenders reflects that they have a fairly broad range of interests. And they're willing to try most anything. They're very curious people from my perspective.

And it's fascinating that when they engage in this activity, they want to memorialize it. And hence the use of photographs so that they can look at themselves looking at themselves. I've actually seen photographs of individuals looking at themselves three times in the same different photograph with mirrors. So there's a lot of pleasure derived from that revisiting the pleasure that they receive from their behavior, even if it's just to themselves. So his behavior doesn't surprise me at all. Take a listen to Dennis Rader speaking with no emotion, speaking in open court under oath. You took some photographs. What kind of camera did you use? Poor Lord.

Did you keep those photographs? Yes, the police probably have them. Alright, what happened then? That was it. She went through, I tied it, she was already dead, so I took pictures of her in different forms of bondage, and

that's probably what got me in trouble was the bondage thing. You know, Sheriff Eddie Vernon joining us, the elected sheriff in this jurisdiction, who has now assembled a national BTK task force. Sheriff Verdon, he told Gina he had taken the bus. I find that significant because that changes his hunting ground. The fact that he could have been using a bus as transport, in my mind, changes a lot. He's not just working in his little neighborhood as many people thought that he was.

We know that's for a fact. We know that he took a cab ride. You know, he left a Boy Scout camp on at least two murders using that for an alibi or cover in one of those. And again, we know he did that because in almost every case, he took the victim's vehicle. so you know taking the bus there at that location would keep his vehicle or keep his uh you know possibility of being caught in that area and i'm sure his plan would match just what we've seen in all the other ones where he he planned on using her vehicle uh to to carry out the rest of what he plotted to do well clearly that's exactly what he would say to her when they got ready to leave. I took a bus. Can we use your car? I mean, it's pretty incredibly structured, his conversation with Jenna. And one thing I did want to mention is that

the use of orphanage in order to elicit sympathy from a potential victim seems rather obvious. Sheriff Verdon, have you ever considered that when he was stationed in not one but two locations in Japan, he may have committed murders there? Absolutely. In fact, we've talked about that. He makes notation of taking a.32 caliber, smuggling it overseas with him, and that at the time that he left to come back to the States, he destroyed the gun to the best of his ability and dropped that gun down an air vent at the military base.

And we've got notations of him prowling Japan, bar girls, and one has an X behind it. And we all know what X means when he does it. That's factor X. And normally, in fact, I don't think I've ever found an X in anything that he had written that does not relate back to an actual murder. So, you know, my belief is something happened overseas. And when you have a bar girl with an ex and Dennis, who is very frugal with money,

destroying a gun when he could have sold it, I'm quite certain, to any other military member, to probably any thug on the street over there. Why would he destroy that gun unless it had been connected to a crime? I'm thinking about what Gina said about what he was wearing, those khaki pants, because I believe Dr. Joni Johnston, that he had, of course, you're the shrink. I'm just a trial lawyer. Some sort of a fixation with uniforms.

He had an ADT uniform. He had an Air Force uniform. He had a dog catcher's uniform. He had a Boy Scout leader uniform. He had an Air Force uniform. He had a dog catcher's uniform. He had a Boy Scout leader uniform. I mean, it goes on. I mean, I've got a whole list of uniforms that I believe that he wore. And there he is with Gina Rodriguez in his khaki pants that very likely went with a uniform. What, if anything, does that mean to you? Well, when we think about many sexually motivated serial killers being pretty obsessed with domination and control, particularly Dennis Rader, who we've talked about monitors BTK, uniforms are a symbol of authority.

And it would make complete sense to me that he would give such a uniform because that gives him this, you know, persona of authority that he can then portray to the world because he thinks of himself in that way anyway. Last, I want to speak to you about his desire for notoriety. Take a listen to Our Cut One from Crime Online. On the outside, Dennis Rader was a Cub Scout leader and the president of his church council at Christ Lutheran Church in Wichita, Kansas. In reality, he was Dennis Rader, the man who named himself BTK. That stood for Bind, Torture, Kill. BTK gained national attention during his murder spree that began in 1974 with the killing of the Otero family and seemingly ended in 1991 when he murdered 62-year-old Dee Davis by strangling her with pantyhose. The BTK case was cold in March of 2004 when he started communicating with local media.

Rader ended up sending a disc to KSAS-TV containing traceable metadata that led investigators to his church and eventually to his Jeep and his house. Pleading not guilty at first, he changed his plea to guilty and confessed to 10 murders. He was sentenced to 10 life sentences at Maximum Security Prison in Kansas. But now, there's new evidence connecting him to additional murders, as well as an odd connection to Brian Koberger, the suspect in the Idaho College murders. You know, his desire for notoriety, Cheryl McCollum, is overwhelming. The bizarre puzzles and contacts he would have with media, even asking them to give

him a moniker. I mean, just bizarre. Well, in 1977, he wrote a letter and basically told the TV station, how many people do I have to kill before I get national attention? You know, I'm also curious about his use of uniforms, how I could use that fascination he had to connect him to other crimes. I'm curious about the equipment that he had in that bag, as is Sheriff Verdon. So many of the aspects of what she is saying that happened to her tied back to BTK. Tampering with her phone line, the bizarre phone calls, someone trying to get in the home when he knows a woman is there with children, just as he did with the Otero family. Take a listen to Dennis Rader. I thought Mrs. Otero and the two kids, the two younger kids were in the house. I didn't realize Mr. Otero was going to be there.

All right. How did you get into the house? I came through the back door, kept the phone lines, waited at the back door, had reservations about even going or just walking away. But pretty soon the door opened and I was in. All right. So the door opened. Was it open for you? I think one of the kids, I think the junior, or not junior, yes, the young girl, Joseph,

opened the door. He probably let the dog out because the dog was in the house at that time. So many of the aspects of what Gina is saying that happened to her, missing her driver's license that she always kept in her purse. I mean, I can tell you where my license is right now. Losing an expensive bejeweled necklace out of nowhere, having lingerie taken. This is exactly what BTK would be doing as he led up to a murder, Cheryl. Well, Nancy, I want to make a correlation between the uniforms and having basically the equipment to do what he wanted to do. If he's in his ADT uniform, then he can fool with a phone line and nobody's going to question him. He's going to say he got called out there, the van fits, the uniform fits, nobody's going to question it.

If he's doing his code enforcement job, he could have a shovel or a dead animal that he's just killed or all these things is immediately explained. If he's in the Boy Scout uniform, he could have a shovel, a knife, a tarp, easily explained. Just based on the uniform, there's no follow-up question needed. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Back to Gina Rodriguez, who actually hooked up, met up with BTK, buying, torture, kill Dennis Rader in Wichita. She remembers the date distinctly because it would be her first Valentine's

since she and her husband had split up. She felt instinctively she had to get away. Now, this was in a restaurant inside of a mall. Do you remember the restaurant, Gina? No, it was just a small restaurant and they served things like coffee and frozen yogurt and might classify it as an ice cream restaurant. It was very casual. So you had the instinct to get up and leave. Yes.

And there's no doubt in my mind, not only did he mention he hates Wichita politics, he also says, hey, I have a friend that works over at Helzberg's. In the mall. There. In Wichita. I mean, long story short, he's not from California. This guy's lying to you. Clearly. Describe for me that instinct that you felt when you knew you had to get away from this

guy and you actually feared he would follow you to your car. And he did. He tried. I just put my hand up like, stop right there. I'm going to be late for work. And he just said, like, okay, well, I'm going to go back in the mall now to see my friend, but I'll call you on Thursday. When you look back on those two meetings and all of the other strange incidents that occurred to you after meeting

Bob White. What goes through your mind? That I was extremely fortunate that I didn't become one of those victims and that I had made a grave mistake by giving someone my phone number and then agreeing to meet them. And I regret that I didn't call the police. I thought about it after the few days after the last phone call where he cited the poems to me, but I really thought they would laugh at me because what had he really done to me but be weird? Weird enough that I would not want to see him or even take that chance of seeing him again. And today I am the extreme opposite. Back then I was a young 27-year-old that had married right out of high school.

I went to nurse's training. I was extremely sheltered. I didn't even know what he was referring to. Today, I'm very smart and streetwise. And I live my life just the opposite. Every window in my house is locked. I have those sticks in all the windows. We have security around here, security lights. Every door is locked. What is your message to other women right now that may have met or encountered Dennis Rader? I would encourage them to come forward, to report it, that this is a very serious matter

and that they can help others maybe discover other victims or would-be victims. I believe, I honestly believe that he did things before 1974, and I think he did things after 1990. For one thing, the Oteros, they had black belts. Now, here he had a gun, but, you know, they had black belts. They were well trained. And, you know, I'm thinking he killed between the years where Kansas had no death penalty. I find that odd. I think there was victims before. I think there were victims after. But if he were to confess to those, it might make him eligible. Exactly. I've often wondered, Sheriff Verdon, why didn't this guy get the death penalty? Well, again, he kept theered up and he never talked again. I mean, Nancy, you know why anyone quits talking.

If he confessed to all the crimes that he had done and the way he likes to talk, why would he stop talking and cooperating with the police? Why would he quit telling his story? You know, another thing is we were told that he had applied for law enforcement and had gotten turned down, but he had tried to get into law enforcement. We know he studied, or we were told he was studied criminal law there while he was attending college in Wichita. So, you know, one thing that we know for sure is he wanted to terrorize Wichita, just like she reported that he was mad at politics in Wichita. He didn't hide any of the victims in Wichita. In fact, he called and told the police where to find them. He was tormenting the police, which, you know, to me is an indicator.

He was mad at the police. And, you know, if he had tried to get on and wasn't hired, this would be a way that he could get even with the police by doing all these crimes and giving them all the tips and the clues, and they couldn't even figure out how to catch him. You know that that had to be in his mind you know that's why we know uh that that you know will roids of him burying himself he didn't want law enforcement knowing he was working outside of wichita but he wanted

to terrorize them so all of his victims in wichita he either turned them in or put them in a location where they'd definitely be found and where it would terrorize, just like she described, his anger with politics in Wichita. Hey, Nancy, can I jump in real quick? Yeah, I was just going to come to you, Cheryl, because this is how you create a case. Dennis Rader has escaped the death penalty. He's killed at least 10 people. In fact, I just want you to hear, Cheryl, and I'll circle back. I just want you to hear what he said about murdering the Otero family. And these are just a few of his victims. Listen. Did he in fact suffocate and die as a result of this?

Not right away. No, sir, he didn't. What happened? Well, after that, I did miss this Otero. I had never strangled anyone before, so I really didn't know how much pressure you had to put on a person or how long it would take. But was she also tied up there in the bedroom? Yes, both her hands and her feet were tied up. She was on the bed. Where were the children? Well, Josephine was on the bed and Junior was on the floor at this time.

So we're talking first of all about Joseph Otero. So you put the bag over his head and tied it, and he did not die right away. Can you tell me what happened in regards to Joseph Otero? He moved over real quick, like, and I think tore a hole in the bag, and I could tell that he was having some problems there. But at that time, the whole family just went panicked on me, so I worked pretty quick. You worked pretty quick. You worked pretty quick? Well, I mean, I strangled Mrs. Otero, and she went out, or passed out. I thought she was dead.

She passed out. Then I strangled Josephine. She passed out, or I thought she was dead. And then I went over and put a bag on Junior's head. There are other instances where we learned that the victim started vomiting out of fear. Then I proceeded to tie her up. She got sick, threw up, got her a glass of water, comforted her a little bit, and then I went ahead and tied her up and then put a bag overhead and strangled her. All right.

Was this a plastic bag also? Yes, sir. I think it was, but I could be wrong on that. It was something. I'm sure it was a plastic bag, yeah. You say you put a bag overhead and strangled her. What did you strangle her with? I actually, I think on that, I had tied her legs to the bedpost and worked up with the rope all the way up, and then what I had left over,

I looped over her neck. So you used this rope to strangle her? Yes, I think it's the same one that I tied her body with. And putting children in a bathroom with toys and blankets to calm them down as he killed the mother. And I proceeded to tie the kids up, and they started crying and got real upset. So I said, oh, this is not going to work. So we moved them to the bathroom. She helped me, and then I tied the doors shut. We put some toys and blankets and odds and ends in there for the kids, make them as comfortable as we could.

We tied one of the bathroom doors shut so they couldn't open it, and she went back and helped me shove the bed up against the other bathroom door. That's who we're talking about. And so far, he has escaped the death penalty. One more case, Cheryl. One more murder that we can connect to him may make the difference. A hundred percent. And that is why this show today is so critical to ask other witnesses to come forward. Because if you listen to that, the way he speaks, just so matter of fact, void of emotion.

We know those similar things from Delphi when we can hear him say down the hill. He's not angry. He's not enraged. He's not out of his mind. It's just almost autopilot. This is what we're doing. And when you hear that he tried to become a police officer, you know, just like the Golden State Killer and other people. Koberger. Koberger. Because what do you do as soon as you arrest somebody? You bind them. You put them in handcuffs. You have a way to, again, stalk people in uniform. You know what's very freaky, Cheryl?

If you look at his sketches of young women, some of them look like they may be even prepubescent. They are bound. They have gags or scarves over their mouths and the look of fear in their eyes that he draws. He's drawing victims that were like these victims he talks about vomiting. They're so afraid they know they're going to die. And he captures that in his sketches. There are other victims. And what's amazing to me, Sheriff Verdon, I recently spoke, who will remain nameless, with a journalist who is in regular contact with BTK. And she has swallowed his bull hook, line and sinker. When I asked, well, obviously he's connected to Mars. She goes, oh, no, no, no, just the 10. And I said, why? And she says, well,

because that's what he told me. People believe him. You believe him, Verdon? Sheriff Verdon, you believe that's all he killed? You know, I have caught him lying so many times uh you know you you don't even have to look any further than you know some of the communication he did with wichita where he he plays out kind of what she said in in his story he sent to them uh his father was killed in war and and he goes through basically what what would be looking for, what the profile, what he should have been versus what he was. So, you know, again, believing what he says is impossible. He is, you know, he is correct in a lot of things and he's misleading in a lot of ways. Well, all defendants do that, don't you think, Sheriff? And they weave in a lot of things and he's misleading in a lot of ways. Well, all defendants do that, don't you think, Sheriff Verdon?

They weave in a little of the truth in their story, probably so they can keep their story straight and then the rest is total BS. Sheriff Eddie Verdon joining us with Cheryl McCollum, Dr. Joni Johnson, Dale Carson, and our special guest, Gina Rodriguez, who narrowly escaped the hands of BTK, buy and torture, kill Dennis Rader. Sheriff Verdon, what do you believe is the best tip line for people to call in if they believe they have encountered BTK? Again, they can go to the Osage County Sheriff website

and leave us a message on that would be the best, because that way we can keep track of them and return those calls and follow up on those leads. There's also a line. I'll let Cheryl give that information through the task force. National Cold Case Task Force at gmail.com. Just make sure you get us that information. How many victims are out there that we don't know about yet?

Victims at the hands of the dog catcher turn killer, Dennis Rader. We wait as justice unfolds. About right now, he's having his morning coffee. Probably reading the paper on the internet. I hope he listens to this. Goodbye, friend. coffee probably reading the paper on the internet i hope he listens to this goodbye friend this is an iHeart podcast