Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BREAKING: CHILD PORN SUSPECT AMBUSHES, KILLS 2 AGENTS

Episode Date: February 3, 2021

Two FBI agents were killed and three agents wounded as they executed a search warrant in Sunrise, Florida. About 6 a.m. a team approached the apartment of a suspect in violent crimes against children��case. That suspect was alerted to the police presence by his ring doorbell. He then opened fire with an assault-type gun.Joining Nancy Grace today:  Nicole Deborde Hochglaube [HOTCH-GLOB] - Criminal Defense Lawyer, Houston TX, Former Prosecutor, Twitter: @debordelaw, Houston TX www.debordelawfirm.com Dr. Jeff Gardere - Board Certified Clinical Psychologist, Prof of Behavioral Medicine at Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine www.drjeffgardere.com, Author: 'The Causes of Autism” @drjeffgardere  Jeff Cortese - Former FBI Special Agent, www.jeffcortese.com Dr. Tim Gallagher - Medical Examiner State of Florida www.pathcaremed.com Glen Pounder - Chief Operating Officer, Child Rescue Coalition, Former Law Enforcement with UK’s National Crime Agency,  www.childrescuecoalition.org Instagram: @childrescuecoalition, Twitter: @childrescueco [phone] Steve Harrigan - FOX News Correspondent  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Two agents dead in an early morning raid trying to effect a search warrant in the Sunrise area, population about 85,000. Why? Because the alleged perp was a child pornographer. And now these two FBI agents, Alphen and Schwarzenberger, are dead, leaving behind spouses and children to wonder, why my mom? Why my dad? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. This is an FBI agent shot.

First of all, I'm trying to get off the ground. I have five patients. Right now, two patients are in and out of the hospital. This is a level one MCI. I've got a total of five patients at this time. Right now, I have one officer shot in the leg. And we're out the ground. We're out of general.

One gunshot to the shoulder at the IED. With me, an all-star panel to try to make sense of a nonsensical situation. Nicole DeBoer, Hotchglobe, criminal defense attorney, joining me out of Houston, former prosecutor. Dr. Jeff Gardier, board-certified clinical psychologist, professor of behavioral medicine, Turo, author of Causes of Autism on Amazon. Jeff Cortese, former FBI special agent at JeffCortese.com, joining me from the Bay Area, California. Dr. Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the state of Florida at PathCareMed.com.

Glenn Pounder, COO, Child Rescue Coalition. And special guest joining me, Steve Harrigan, Fox News correspondent there in Miami. Steve, first to you. When we hear about agents gunned down in the line of duty, shot dead, all they were trying to do was effect a search warrant on an alleged child pornographer. What went wrong? That's what the investigation hopes to figure out

because certainly things did go tragically wrong. Yesterday, just after 6 a.m. in the dark when shots rang out, I'm out in front of those apartments now. It looks like an upscale gated community. There are orange cones up and law enforcement helicopters in the sky still, but traffic is moving. Apparently, according to the Miami Herald, citing unnamed law enforcement sources, the gunman inside the perpetrator opened fire with an assault rifle before the task force could even reach the door. Fired through a closed door, monitoring their approach on a doorbell camera.

So you look at the door, there's all large bullet holes coming out from an assault rifle. So two agents dead, three wounded, two of those wounded, multiple gunshot wounds. They are both in stable condition in the hospital. The third wounded agent treated on the scene, but certainly agents calling this a dark day in the history, one of the deadliest for the FBI, Nancy. One of the worst shootings in that area in 35 years when Agent Ben Grogan and Jerry Dove were both shot down in a gun battle with armed robbers. Once again, a bloody crime scene when agents are gunned down in the line of duty. Now, this is how it works. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Straight out to Glenn Pounder. Glenn, joining me from Chief Operating Officer at Child Rescue Coalition. What happens is there are agents poised on the dark web at all times when they see the trading of child porn. Children molested and treated like animals on video and photographed. They're treated like baseball cards amongst pedophiles. They can look up the internet provider and actually find exactly where your location is. And that, I believe, is what led them to this apartment. They're in Sunrise. What about it, Glenn? Yeah, thank you, Nancy. And I think this is going to be very uncomfortable for your listeners, but it needs to be said that what we're talking about here is not child pornography.

It's the rape, the sometimes violent rape of children, sometimes very young children. And I think sometimes that gets lost when these new stories are put out, because some people might have in mind, well, you know, was this somebody dressed up as a 15-year-old and posing in a video? That's not what we're dealing with here. We're dealing with the rape of children, sometimes as young as infants. And obviously, sometimes that rape is sometimes violent. And the videos of that horrific abuse are being traded both on the deep web, what we call the deep web, and the dark web.

And organizations like ours are able to help law enforcement find the information they need to serve legal process in a case like this. And that is exactly, Glenn Pounder, how Dan Alfin and Laura Schwarzenberger were shot down dead. I'm very curious. Back to you, Steve Harrigan, Fox News, joining me from Miami. They're on the scene at the apartments.

Whenever agents go in to make an arrest or a search, I assume that they were wearing vests. It's my belief that the perp lay in wait, that he was alerted to their arrival by his ring doorbell. He didn't wait for them to knock at the door. He ambushed them as they were walking up to the door, getting to the door by shooting through the door. Huge holes in the door that indicate an assault weapon was used. Explain what you know, Steve Harrigan. Right now, it's local media in Florida, the Miami Herald and other newspapers

citing unnamed law enforcement sources said that is exactly what happened. This perpetrator monitored the approach of the child pornography task force through a ring doorbell camera and then opened fire before they even got to the door. Right now, they're saying that this operation, giving a search warrant, was meticulously planned. But I think questions are going to be asked because this turned out so badly. Why was a SWAT team or a tactical team not involved? Why were there not efforts made to take this perpetrator outside of his home? This is, of course, one of the deadliest operations possible.

When you are going into a house, when you are approaching a house, you don't know what's inside. Two agents now lost their lives because of that. Jeff Cortese, former FBI special agent at JeffCortese.com. You're hearing what our Fox correspondent Steve Harrigan is saying. I imagine having done arrests and search warrants, subpoenaed deliveries myself, I always pick the early morning hours because I know that perps, dopers, other ne'er-do-wells are asleep when the rest of us are up awake and working. They're up all night and sleep all day. So typically, an early morning raid works the best. That's why we see it happen so often. What, if anything, went wrong? Well, I think what is, I mean, you hit it on the head, obviously, you know, historically were always some of the most unpredictable, some of the most dangerous to serve. Yesterday was no exception. And, you

know, I think a lot of it potentially is rooted in the fact that, you know, what we're dealing with is somebody who is presumably living a double life. This is not somebody who is likely an outward and open criminal. And in fact, the activity that he's engaged in, the criminal activities allegedly engaged in, is the kind of activity that the most heinous and most violent of criminals consider abhorrent. So the unmasking of this hidden side, the unmasking of this criminal activity is not uncommon for law enforcement to take very seriously because it can trigger a reaction, whether suicide by cop or violence of this nature. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us, we are talking about the horrible events that have unfolded in Sunrise, Florida. It's near Fort Lauderdale, near the Everglades, population about 85,000, where you think crime would be at an all-time low. In a small area like that, a small community, wrong. You never know who is a child predator, who is trading child pornography, horrible images. I've seen them. They are sickening, sickening. These two agents

have devoted their lives to fighting for children, and now they are dead thanks to this perv, holed up, barricaded in his apartment, who ambushed the two agents as they walked toward the door. Joining me, an all-star panel, but back to Steve Harrigan, Fox News correspondent, joining me there at the apartments. I understand that the perp had time to barricade himself in his apartment and then shoot through the door. That's easily determined forensically whether he shot through the door. So he had time.

He lay in wait, barricaded himself as he saw the agents coming. That's right. And neighbors around this apartment heard the shots just after 6 a.m. Some came out to see what was going on. Law enforcement told them to get back inside their houses. Within minutes, there was a huge law enforcement presence here. There was a SWAT team operating on a nearby child pornography case. They came to join the fight with armored vehicles. It was one of those armored vehicles that was able to pull one of the wounded agents out to safety. Guys, take a listen to our friends at WPLG Local 10.

Do not fire towards the front porch. We're going to be moving up. Do not fire towards the front porch. Tense moments Tuesday morning as an FBI raid in Sunrise turned deadly when two agents were killed and three others were injured by gunfire. We're inside the development and we're working our way up. We're going to extract ground officers. It started around 6 a.m. when law enforcement moved in on this apartment complex off of Knob Hill Road just south of 44th Street. The FBI says they were executing a federal court-ordered search warrant as part of a violent crimes against children case, but then bullets began flying. When I hear what was happening, the confusion surrounding the gunning down of two innocent agents,

Alfin leaves behind a wife and a child. Schwarzenberger leaves behind a husband and two children. Now, Alfin, and back to you, Steve Harrigan, had been fighting child pornography and violent acts on children for years. As a matter of fact, he brought down a major, major dark web child porn site called Playpen, resulting in the recovery of nearly 300 children and their identification. He's been in this for a long time. And Schwarzenberger, her specialty was tracking child pornographers. She even took time to go speak at middle schools,

telling children how to be safe. That's who we're talking about. Real life, everyday heroes, Steve. These two were both veterans in one of the most difficult task forces there is, where they had to deal with horrendous things day in and day out, violent child pornography. Both had worked in this area for years. And as you said, both leave families behind. Alvin in his 30s leaving a wife and one child. Schwarzenberger in her 40s leaving a husband and two children.

And they were pillars really of the community as well. Schwarzenberger, a regular speaker, trying to advise elementary and high school students how to avoid sexting, how to avoid getting trapped, really trying to avoid having these children come to her later with problems. So dedicated to the community, working an incredibly tough job, going out every day and putting their lives on the line. To Jeff Cortez, the former special agent FBI, wouldn't it have been standard operating procedure for them to be wearing vests? And what does that tell you about the hits these two took? Yeah, so leading into the arrest, obviously, they would be wearing other, you know, mandated

tactical equipment and gear, you know, which includes their tactical vests, you know, mandated tactical equipment and gear, you know, which includes their tactical vest, you know, outside of the enhanced vest that our tactical teams, our SWAT teams wear. You know, if he was using an assault rifle, depending on the caliber, you know, these vests are not really built to withstand that kind of firepower. What do you mean by that, not built to withstand that firepower? Why would we put agents at risk if the vest can't protect them? Well, I mean, it depends on how many rounds the vest took. It depends on where the shots were located. But, you know, depending on the size of the round, there are rounds that exist that will penetrate law enforcement standard issued vests. To Jeff Cortese, I understand the

identity of the perp has been kept secret up till now while they try to contact his next of kin. What, I mean, do you think the next of kin are going to be open about the fact that, hey, this is my cousin? You know, it's hard to tell exactly how a family will react to this situation. We've seen the gambit of family members go from everything from denial to denial of the relationship to denial that the individual was capable of doing anything wrong. So the family response is unknown. Yeah, much less child pornography. You don't want to admit someone you love or know related to is a criminal, much less this type of crime. Guys, take a listen to Willard Shepard, WTVJBC6. What the circumstances were here is that we were now told that this person had a camera, actually a ring camera, a system like that set up outside of

their apartment and actually saw the agents approaching. Sources telling us that this person saw them coming up to the door, actually opened fire before they actually started the official process of executing the warrant. So that will be something they will be looking into as this forensic teams here behind me continue all of their work moving forward. But right now, the focus is on supporting the families who lost their loved ones today. Straight out to Nicole DeBoer, a Hutch club, criminal defense attorney in Houston, Texas, former prosecutor. And you can find her at DeBoer law firm dot com. Nicole, thank you for being with us. Now, I guess every one of your clients is going to run out and get a ring doorbell cam because what was created to protect law abiding citizens to let us know who's at our door now being used against police.

Well, the good news is, is that this is very much an outlier. I've been doing this for several decades. And fortunately, I have never had a client launch an attack on law enforcement. You know, it generally speaking helps the client who is facing arrest to cooperate with police. And when they know that there's a warrant out there for them, the best and smartest thing to do is to go and turn themselves in. This can actually help in terms of sentencing, ultimately, if the client is ever found guilty. Well, I'm glad for you.

And I mean that sincerely, Nicole DeBoer-Hochelam, that none of your clients have ever shot a cop. Because one of my friends early on in the district attorney's office, who I befriended, Randy Schipani, was gunned down on a routine traffic stop for no reason. He had just gotten to the car and was gunned down right there on the street. And the shockwaves that sent through the APD and the Fulton County DA's office is something I'll never forget. I mean, the reality is to Jeff Cortese, former special agent with the FBI, it's not that uncommon. And now ring doorbell cams are going to be used against the police. This guy set a horrible precedent. If they didn't already have a ring, they're going to have one by this afternoon at 4 o'clock when they wake up. Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see, you know, how what the investigation, internal investigation reveals about the incident. This is not, unfortunately, a terribly uncommon thing.

It is what happens. It is why law enforcement gets jocked up to conduct arrests, whether white-collar or violent crime. There's a reason they go with heavy force, and they go early in the morning. We want to mitigate the likelihood of this happening. But once again, when you're talking about child exploitation, child pornography crimes, these are incredibly unpredictable people. These lives are going to be ruined in ways that, you know, Joe Criminal's life isn't. The unmasking of this double life, the unmasking of this criminal activity sends folks engaged in this activity into a tailspin sometimes.

And, you know, violence is not an unusual outcome. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us, two special agents with the FBI are being mourned now. Three others wounded, two still remain in the hospital, having been shot in the legs and the arms. Special Agent Daniel Alfin, just 36 years old, wife and child left behind. Special Agent Laura Schwarzenberger, 43 years old. He's behind a husband and two children that want to know, why my mom? The last they saw her, she goes off to work, and they never see her alive again. Same for Alvin.

Take a listen to George Pirro, FBI special agent in charge. It takes an incredibly special person to answer the call and do the heroic work of an FBI special agent. It requires self-sacrifice. It requires putting oneself in harm's way, not once, but again and again. Dan and Laura left home this morning to carry out the mission they signed up for and loved to do, to keep the American people safe. They were valuable members of the FBI and will forever be heroes. We will always honor their ultimate sacrifice. And you know what happens in the blink of an eye.

You know, to Dr. Jeff Gardier, board-certified clinical psychologist, professor of behavioral medicine at Truro, at drjeffgardier.com, author of The Causes of Autism on Amazon. Dr. Jeff, it's great to hear your voice this morning, old friend. I recall being out serving subpoenas with my investigator on a triple homicide. I remember it like it was yesterday, and we went up a porch and knocked, and there was a screen door over the door, which makes it easy for the person on the inside to see out, more difficult for you to see in.

And it was weathered. It was dark, not bright, shiny metal screen door. And the first thing we could make out was the barrel of a gun pointed right at us one foot away. My investigator grabbed me. My hands were full of documents and files. They went flying and we leapt. Well he leapt. He pulled me with him off the porch down about I don't know four or five feet. I'll never forget it. And what I remember the most is not only seeing the barrel through that screen, but the fact that it happened so quickly. We didn't hear the door open, the main door. I didn't see anybody. I was looking

straight there, looking down at my files and looking up. And all of a sudden, there was the barrel of a gun. And I'm just thinking about these two walking up that morning together. They were partners. The early morning hours, still dark outside, when out of nowhere, they were ambushed. That dichotomy of the normalcy of the moment. And then suddenly, they're dead. And their children no longer have mom or dad anymore. Everybody's life is changed because of one child pornographer. Absolutely, Nancy.

And these brave law enforcement heroes, especially these two FBI agents, may they rest in peace. These individuals, my God, they face this every single day. They know that when they're going to go out and apprehend someone or follow through on an investigation that their lives are in danger. Wait a minute, Dr. Jeff. I hear you. I hear what you're saying. But Jeff Cortese, a former special FBI at JeffCortese.com. Yeah. I mean, when I went out that morning to deliver subpoenas, I mean, I guess I knew somewhere in the back of my mind somebody connected to a triple homicide case might not like me knocking on their door. I guess I knew that way, way deep buried. But if you listen to that, you're paralyzed.

You'd never get out from under your bed. No task would ever be achieved. No dream would ever come true because you're afraid. I'd never get out from under your bed. No task would ever be achieved. No dream would ever come true because you're afraid. I mean, come on. Cortese, when you go out the door and you get in your car today, yeah, somebody might T-bone you at a red light. But are you going to stop driving? Do you really dwell on the fact? Yeah, they knew.

But they did their job anyway, Cortese, just like you. Yeah, no, I don't think people can fully appreciate the amount of resolve it takes to work the types of crimes, the agents that work this program in the different field offices have a type of resolve that is beyond what I'm willing and able to do. I couldn't do it. I've been involved in a lot of these arrests and search warrants, but the investigative process itself. So to your point, yes, we all strap on a gun and anywhere we go, there's always at least one gun in the room. And the likelihood that something can go wrong is always there. But it is the willingness to overcome that fear that makes folks like these so courageous. It's a really, I mean, the amount of courage it took to do their day-to-day job exceeds, I can't say this enough, what any other FBI agent in the Bureau does when it comes to dealing with the day-in and day-out heinous nature of the crime.

It takes a special person. These were a couple of special agents. And I don't mean that as FBI special agents. These were special, special agents. You have to have a steel stomach to deal with child pornography. I remember when I was writing my first book, Jeff, and it dealt with, you know, I had to deal with people fascinated with crime scenes and corpses and child pornography. When I finished that book, I destroyed the computer. I thought it was bad luck. I know that's crazy, but that computer, all those horrible, horrible images live there. They're so upsetting that I don't even like to think about them. And these two went out every day and confronted the people responsible for child pornography,

for the rape of our innocent children. I mean, Glenn Pounder, COO of Child Rescue Coalition, it's hard to keep working when that's what you have to look at and deal with every day. Yeah, it really is. And I agree with the former agent that working these cases is some of the most difficult work that law enforcement does. Certainly, I worked in law enforcement for 31 years. The first case of mine like this was a VHS tape Which I guess shows my age a little bit It also shows that the internet has played a huge part

In the proliferation of child sexual abuse material But also the ways in which these guys can connect And certainly the case Dan worked on The Playpen case Those bad guys to get into these closed rooms had to present new child rape videos of young children before the administrators would let them in the rooms. And obviously Dan was one of the heroes who worked on that case and rescued, helped rescue children all around the world. So, you know, FBI, HSI, many other agencies here in the U.S., state and local, and then a worldwide network of law enforcement that's fighting this abuse on a daily basis. A friend of mine was on the other warrant just a few miles away, another child protection case.

There were also guns on that premises as well. You know, I went and testified at Congress to a special committee about child pornography, and I know they wanted to help. And when you tell people about what you've seen, God bless them

because they can't grasp it. When you see it, it's something you will never forget. And these two, Dan Alfin and Laura Schwarzenberger, were fighting the good fight. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about the horrific shooting of two FBI agents who just left that morning to do their job. Take a listen to George Pirro. Dan was 36 years old. He was born in New York and joined the FBI in 2009 with his initial assignment to the FBI's Albany, New York office.

He has been assigned to FBI Miami since 2017 and has worked crimes against children violations for over six years. He survived by his wife and one child. And what about Laura Schwarzenberger? Listen to Piro. Laura was 43 years old. She was born in Pueblo, Colorado and joined the FBI in 2005. Her initial assignment was with the FBI's Albuquerque, New Mexico office. She was assigned to FBI Miami in 2010 and has worked crimes against children cases for over seven years. She is survived by her husband and two children. To Dr. Tim Gallagher, a medical examiner, joining us from that jurisdiction,

the ME for the entire state of Florida at PathCareMed.com. Dr. Gallagher, thank you for being with us. I've got a question for you. If these two were wearing vests and tactical gear, which I do believe they were, how is it that they both died on the scene? Well, Nancy, we have to remember that the tactical vests are bullet resistant. They're not all bulletproof. Typically, they're able to stop the projectiles of a handgun. So they're able to stop the bullets from a handgun, fired from a handgun. But assault rifles are different. The bullets go a lot faster. The bullets have sharp points on them. And a lot of the times they're able to penetrate through that Kevlar vest and into the body to the point where they can cause fatal injuries.

Just thinking about how they died there on the scene. Guys, take a listen to Hazel Vela at WPLG Local 10, our cut 9. Here at Broward Health, emotional support by way of a hug. And minutes later, the heartbreaking images we didn't want to see. The body of one of the fallen agents brought out, the American flag draped over as other officers and agents salute. Two special agents, Daniel Alfin and Laura Schwarzenberger, making the ultimate sacrifice while on duty. It is from here where a somber procession takes off. Today, some words from the FBI Agents Association.

They say, these agents were working to protect the most vulnerable in our society. We stand with the agents' families and pledge to support them during this difficult time. FBI agents risk their lives to protect our country, and the loss of these agents is devastating to the entire FBI community and to our country. Dr. Tim Gallagher, why were they taken to the medical examiner's office after leaving Broward Health if they were already pronounced dead? Good question. I mean, people do not go to the medical examiners to be pronounced dead. You need to be pronounced dead to go to the medical

examiners. But the medical examiner has jurisdiction over the body if it is involved, if the death is involved during the commission of a crime or during the commission of a shooting. So these unfortunate officers were killed in the line of duty. This is a police-involved shooting, and that falls under the jurisdiction of the medical examiner. So the bullets need to be recovered from the body if the bullets are retained in the body, and those bullets need to be matched up to the weapon that was used in the commission of the crime. And this helps in the trial to convict the suspect. To Nicole DeBoard-Hochglob, a high-profile criminal defense attorney, joining us out of Houston, Texas. And you can find her at the DeBoord, D-E-B-O-R-D-E, lawfirm.com.

Nicole, from what we know, as the agents closed in on him, after he gunned down Alfin and Schwarzenberger, he then shot himself. I'm echoing what Dr. Tim Gallagher just told us. The autopsies must be performed on all three of them to determine exactly whose bullet fired the fatal shot. Yes, that's exactly right. And I think you've raised some really great points. I mean, unfortunately, officers, when they're doing their jobs, they're putting themselves in harm's way day in and day out. And there are jurisdictions right now in our country where it is in vogue to prosecute officers who find themselves in a position to have to shoot back. And so, you know, the risk that they face and the fear that they may be, you know, really

attacked publicly for ultimately preserving their own safety is a very real problem right now for law enforcement across the country. Take a listen to our Cut 14. This is Julie Lenardi at WTVJ. That's NBC6 in South Florida. Listen. Things have calmed down just a little bit here. You can see police tape that used to be out blocking this road no longer up. But this street, Knob Hill Road, is still closed, though, to traffic.

We spoke to neighbors earlier this morning who told us what it was like when they woke up. I just woke up because of the noise. Neighbors along Knob Hill Road in Sunrise woken up to the sound of sirens. Moments later, the streets blocked off and a warning from law enforcement to this community to remain inside until further notice. When I got out, I noticed a lot of police going on in the Noheel area. I couldn't actually get out through Noheel. I had to get out through the other side. Zoraida says she didn't hear the gunshots and neighbors were left scared and unsure as chaos unfolded on their block. I wonder what happened, but then I ask around and nobody knew anything.

She tells us this is typically a safe community and has never seen anything like this in the 15 years she's lived in Sunrise. It was a middle class community dotted by residential single-family homes and apartments where this perp lived in an apartment. The feds were led to him by his IP address after allegedly trading child pornography online or worse. To Dr. Jeff Gardere, clinical psychologist, professor of behavioral medicine at Turo. You can find him at drjeffgardere.com. Dr. Jeff, we were listening to Cortese describing how when you've got a child molester

or a child pornographer, once that arrest or that search goes down, their double life is blown to bits. The facade that they present to family, friends, neighbors at work, it's shot to H-E-double-L. And the thought of that happening, I believe, led this guy to open fire on Alvin and Schwarzenberger. Absolutely. I firmly believe that this was a person who knew that his cover had been completely blown. What he was doing throughout the years was absolutely horrific, criminal, just completely the worst thing anyone can do to anyone else, especially children, in promoting these sites or the site that he had. And that's why he was ready to die.

He was going to take out as many people as possible, and he knew that he would not walk out of there alive. To Glenn Pounder, Chief Operating Officer, Child Rescue Coalition. You can find him at childrescuecoalition.org. Glenn, who are these people? Who are these child pornographers? I mean, they're among us. We just can't see what they are unless we look at their computer. Yes, it's a great point, Nancy. I mean, literally, I think back in the day, everyone had this impression of some guy in the basement. That's just not the case there in all of our communities. Often we've seen hundreds of cases of ours where these guys are in positions of trust as well. We have teachers, doctors, lawyers, you know, upstanding members of the community, a church pastor.

The list goes on. So there are people who you know. And I think what's also important is when we talk about grooming, sometimes it's the adults who've been groomed, right? So adults are groomed. They think, no, that couldn't be Bob. He's a great guy. And so adults get groomed often first before a child does, because everyone believes he's such a great guy. He can't be the one who's raping children. I'm sorry to say these guys live in and around us, every single city on the planet. Our prayers are with the families of Special Agent Daniel Alfin and Special Agent Laura Schwarzenberger. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off.

Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.