Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Breast Cancer Warriors Speak Out

Episode Date: October 28, 2022

Breast cancer, behind skin cancer, is the most common cancer diagnosed in women in the United States. Statistics show that 1 in 8 women will be breast cancer patients. While breast cancer can occur in both men and women, it's far more common in women. Breast cancer survival rates have risen thanks to factors such as earlier detection. Today on Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, we remember a friend we lost during her battle and speak with others who beat killer cancer.  Joining Nancy Grace Today.  Barbara Shott - Ellen Killoran’s Mother and breast cancer survivor John Killoran - Ellen Killoran’s brother Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist, CarynStark.com, Twitter: @carynpsych, Facebook: "Caryn Stark" and breast cancer survivor Dr. William J. Gradishar, MD - Betsy Bramsen Professor of Breast Oncology & Professor of Medicine, Chief, Division of Hematology/Oncology, Northwestern University, Twitter:@DrWGradishar Dr. Hope S. Rugo, MD - Professor of Medicine,  UCSF Helen Diller Family Comprehensive Cancer Center (San Francisco, CA) @hoperugo Kristy Mazurek - Emmy Award-winning Investigative Reporter (Buffalo, NY)  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Two words that strike terror in the hearts of millions. Breast cancer. Take a listen to this. Famous for her stunning beauty and her hit movies like Lara Croft, Tomb Raider, as an ambassador of goodwill in Africa and Cambodia. And again, with her op-ed piece in the New York Times and the stunning revelation that she had had a preventative double mastectomy. She wrote, my doctors estimated that I had an 87% risk of breast cancer. Once I knew this was my reality, I decided to be proactive and to minimize the risk as much as I could.

A few years ago, ovarian cancer took the life of her own beloved mother. She said she is speaking out for her mother. My children will never have the chance to know her and experience how loving and gracious she was. They have asked if the same could happen to me. I've always told them not to worry, but the truth is I carry a faulty gene. In February of this year, Jolie underwent the major surgery. You're hearing our friends at ABC and more. Jolie underwent an eight-hour operation in which the breast tissue was removed before temporary fillers were put in place. On a personal note, she wrote, I do not feel any less of a woman. I feel empowered

that I made a strong choice that in no way diminishes my femininity. Jolie tested positive for the gene called BRCA1. Women who carry these mutations have, doctors say, about a 65% risk of developing breast cancer. For Jolie and other women like her, the choices are stark. Very stark. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us today here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111 for a special edition. Breast cancer, breast cancer awareness, the stories of breast cancer survivors, and breast cancer prevention. It's so overwhelming. Sometimes I don't even know where to start. It all became very real to me. I'm very sad because someone very special to me is not here.

It's Ellen Kaloran. I'm sure you've heard me call on her many, many times on Crime Stories, was one of the first two writers, reporters that joined me when I left HLN to launch Crime Stories and Crime Online. Ellen passed away suddenly in the midst of a battle with breast cancer. Her death was sudden and unexpected. friend and a colleague that gave her all until she was stolen from us during treatment for breast cancer. Listen, such a great person, so full of life. You may have seen her. She's been at every single crime con, working at the Crime Stories and Crime Online booth,

helping you take pictures, selling you stuff, giving you information about cases and where to go. I miss her so much. And CrimeCon will never be the same without EK. We spoke to Ellen's father, Jack. Listen. Well, I was devastated. And not only that, but prior to Ellen being diagnosed with breast cancer, her older sister, Katie, was diagnosed with stage zero breast cancer about three or four years prior ultimately Ellen herself to realize that unfortunately

the cancer gene, I believe it's called the Brocker gene, had been passed down from her mother to Katie and also to Ellen. After an incredibly brave fight, she shared very little of her ailment, her suffering with others. And just when we all thought EK, Ellen, had beaten breast cancer, the news came right here in this studio that Ellen had passed away.

Her father tells us what that felt like. It's horrible. It's still horrible. It will always be horrible. I've learned a lot of bad things in a short time about what this is like. What it's like for me is not a day goes by where I have these strong, I'll call it punches in the gut, that my daughter is gone. And there's so much more I want to do with her and for her.

And it's just very, very unbelievably sad. With me, an incredible panel of not only doctors and experts, but breast cancer survivors, warriors. First, I want to go to Barbara Schott. This is E.K. Ellen's mother. She's a breast cancer survivor herself. Thank you. Barbara, I know it's been described that you passed the gene to both of your daughters, Katie and Ellen. I did. I don't see it that way. This gene is insidious. And so many people have this gene. You fought breast cancer and survived. I did. How did it hit you when you learned Ellen, EK, as I called her, had breast cancer. Well, I have to back up a little. I was diagnosed last September with left-sided breast cancer. I had chemotherapy through the winter.

In early March, I had surgery. I had a second round of chemo in the spring. And during the summer, I had a round of radiation therapy. Now Ellen knew I was in therapy and so she did not share with me her breast cancer prognosis which I completely understand and I have no problem with that whatsoever. So I was not aware that Ellen had breast cancer until after she died of a ruptured brain aneurysm. Ms. Schott, I did not know she kept her breast cancer battle a secret from you. What I did know is that as she was working and just churning out so many incredible stories for CrimeOnline.com and reporting here at Crime Stories so often on breaking news,

we all knew that you had breast cancer and that she was helping you. She was. She did. We would hear that, that I need to be off today or I'm going to be late. I've got to do fill in the blank for my mom. Right. And there was just never a question that her first loyalty, her first duty was to helping you. Oh, I know that.

And she did so much research for me and the very day that I found out she had the ruptured aneurysm she was texting to me to get so that I could get a medical cannabis to use because I was starting my second round of chemo and she felt that maybe I could use it during that time. She did a lot of research for me but as you say Nancy I thought she was just doing her regular wonderful work, and I didn't know she was speaking from personal experience. John, who is E.K., Ellen Killorn's brother, is with us. John, I write back and forth. I text back and forth with your dad sometimes. I hate to bring it up because I know very often those in mourning may be having a perfectly

fine day and then someone brings up the loss and it starts you back at ground zero. You have to start all over again. But I want to tell you and Barbara just how much we have prayed for you and how beloved EK was and is to us. When did you learn about your sister's breast cancer? Well, as my mom had said, she was indirect about what she was going through. Because she was able to hide her diagnosis and the work she was doing because of my mom's diagnosis and also because of my sister Katie, our older sister Katie's prior diagnosis. As my mom says, we thought that the work she was doing was largely brought about by their experience. You know, she had had, I did know that she had had a, what I was told was a preventative

mastectomy months earlier, even a year earlier. I'm not sure of the timeline. And that was based on, her story was that I was just being an abundance of caution because of my mom's experience and because of Katie's experience. I didn't find out that her battle was happening until right at the very end from Katie. And I appreciate you saying, Nancy, that sort of speaking of caution, that it's difficult to sort of revisit the moment again. But to be honest, I, as my dad has said, and as my mom has said, it's still fresh every day. So it really doesn't, hearing about it doesn't sort of set me back in any way.

To lose someone like that so abruptly and to sort of find out post-facto that she was struggling more than she was fighting something greater than you were even aware of is truly shocking. And I'm still in shock about it. And I don't feel any sort of it's been six months since she passed and I don't feel really any further away from it. But just the fact that, you know, this work she was doing and she was very active in assisting, doing research and reaching out to other either survivors or women battling breast cancer just shows how she even in the midst of a of her really terrible struggle and this very frightening thing, she was putting other people first and really sort of fighting the fight for them. And that sort of adds to the tragedy of her abrupt loss. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Ellen passed away abruptly and suddenly as she was getting treatment for her breast cancer.

Barbara, was it during radiation or chemo that the aneurysm occurred? That Ellen's in it? It was during chemo. And she was in New York, and they called her, one of her friends that had gone with her, called to tell me that she had had a seizure. And I said, well, okay, but what caused the seizure? And so then she said, is it okay for you to speak with the doctor,

which of course it was. So it was during chemo, during when she was in treatment for chemo, and when we all got to New York very quickly, as we all found out, it was what she had died of was the ruptured brain aneurysm. But to answer your question, it was during chemo rather than radiation that she was suffering. Joining me, two incredible doctors that have broken their schedules. And you can only imagine. These are breast cancer specialists.

Dr. William J. Gratishar, Betsy Branson, Professor of Breast Oncology, Professor of Medicine, Chief, Division of Hematology and Oncology at Northwestern. On Twitter, at Dr. W. Gratishar. Also with me, Dr. Hope S. Rugo, Professor of Medicine, UCSF Helen Diller Family Comprehensive Cancer Center in San Francisco. Breaking their incredible schedule of surgeries

of breast cancer patients and survivors to speak out today. Also with me, in addition to other guests, our friend and colleague, renowned psychologist joining us from Manhattan and breast cancer survivor, Karen Stark. To Dr. Gratishar, thank you so much, Doctor. and Dr. Rugo for being with us. Dr. Gratishar, have you noticed that so often breast cancer warriors keep their battle a secret? Why is that? Well, I don't know that all patients do that. I think some patients rely on the support of family and friends when they go through it. There are others who want to remain private and

they don't want to be viewed by others in any different sort of way. So I think it's an individual decision. Patients cope with their illness in different ways, depending on who they are. And I don't think there's one pattern that fits all patients. You know, Dr. Rugo, joining me, Dr. Hope S. Rugo joining us from San Francisco. Dr. Rugo, again, thank you so much to both of our doctors joining us. I find that very often it's treated differently than some other ailment. Like, okay, I've got kidney stones or I've got a heart problem or I broke my ankle. There's something about breast cancer.

It seems to be more secretive to the patient. And I'm not clear why. And I wonder if that has something to do with why so many women don't get tested. I think that that's a very, very good point. I think there is some of a stigma associated with being diagnosed with a cancer. Particularly, I see that in my young patients where they're worried about the impact on the school families, their kids, and their community and somehow thinking they're less capable or less able or that there's, we see this also, some fault involved in them in the diagnosis itself. I've seen that also, I think that people feel that reactions to people around them can be that of fear and

anxiety for themselves so that the patients hide it because they don't want to deal with that. The other thing I've noticed is that when people will share their diagnosis, that a lot of times their friends, meaning well, will share with them bad stories. And that can actually be very stressful as well. So I think that there are a number of reasons. For work, for example, I've had patients who worked very carefully to wear wigs and to go in every day to hide it from work because they felt that it would negatively impact their work situation. We really work on trying to make this more open. And I think some of the stories you've shared go a long way to try and help people feel less of a stigma with the diagnosis. But the issue about when you go and have your screening is even more complicated. I think that there's a lot of fear for finding something and what that will mean.

And that fear often keeps people from doing screening or coming in when they feel alone. I actually started crying while you were talking, and I'll tell you why. My next guest is Karen Stark. And it was her idea some time ago to formulate and create a breast cancer awareness program. She was to join with EK in producing our program and Ellen did not make it to today. Karen Stark, you along with Barbara and John are going to have to speak for Ellen. Your cancer battle goes back and we have really been through it, haven't we? Yes, Nancy, we have.

It's so hard to talk about, Ellen. We became close because we were talking about doing the awareness, and it just seemed like it was so essential to get people to be, not only get people to be aware, but also to have them not run away from the fact that they had breast cancer. And Ellen was so brave. She was diagnosed with a type of breast cancer that was very frightening. And we talked about what to expect. Until this day, I feel like the last time I talked to her was when she was starting to have chemo. And I told her, you're going to be fine.

I went through it. You know, you'll be maybe a little sick, but it will be over before you know it. And, of course, what happens when someone that you care so much about dies is that you feel like, why did I say that? You know, like, it just feels so wrong. Oh, Karen, no, I disagree. You gave her additional strength and courage to keep going. You did.

We all did here. And even though she kept her battle secret from her mom, who was battling breast cancer at the time, and her brother, she knew that she had their love, their very, very deep love. Karen Stark, joining me, your battle has gone on for years. It would seem like once one thing was cured, then it would come back. Take a listen to Karen Stark in our cut. Five years ago, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. My immediate reaction was disbelief. Went through six different surgeries and was taken to Moxfin after five years. I finally felt like I was cancer free. It was time to celebrate. Much to everyone's surprise, I discovered that it had reoccurred.

Your cancer came back, and it was worse. Karen Stark, as I recall, say, when did your cancer battle start? In 2010. Oh my goodness, yeah. We've been friends a very long time, Nancy. And I remember when you told me, and everything everything you went through and did your cancer start on your left breast yeah it was it was always my left breast but the only reason that I discovered that I had cancer again and this is really important I think is that I had this instinctive feeling even though everybody told me, all the doctors, not that they meant me any harm, but they said, there's no reason to believe it'll be in the other breast. So I listened initially, but I kept feeling like I wanted to do a bilateral

mastectomy. And it wasn't until Angelina Jolie. Okay, well, wait, slow down. What is a bilateral mastectomy? A bilateral is when you take off this breast. And when I was diagnosed, they only did one breast because it was only in one breast. And they said that, you know, I had stage one, everything would be fine. I didn't need chemo, and I should just stick with that. And I really felt, I just had this feeling that I didn't want to have my other breast. I couldn't understand what the reason was.

And I understand that all surgery is a risk. Oh, Karen, I remember it like it was yesterday. You and I went round and round about whether you should have the right breasts removed. That was it. That's right. But here's the thing, Nancy, this is just so incredible to me is that until Angelina Jolie actually went public and talked about what she did prophylactically to make sure she didn't have breast cancer or any kind of cancer. I felt like I, no matter who, including women doctors, would say to me, no, they didn't want to do the surgery on me, that it was ridiculous and a big risk.

And I finally asked her, only after Angelina Jolie, to find surgeons who were willing to go ahead and remove her. Okay, I remember all of this, and I remember adding my vote, which you asked for, Karen Stark, that you should have a double mastectomy at the beginning. Why? Because I was acting out of fear. I was afraid. I want to go to Dr. Hope S. Rugo, Professor of Medicine, UCSF, Helen Diller Family Comprehensive Cancer Center in San Francisco.

And you can find her on Twitter, at Hope Rugo, R-U-G-O. Dr. Rugo, mine was a knee jerk reaction when I said, Karen, you should have a double mastectomy right now. That's probably overreacting. Would you agree? Yes, I would. And I think that it's so important to really think about the individual situation. If a patient has a BRCA mutation, for example, as we were talking about earlier, the risk of getting another breast cancer can be quite high and in that situation a patient may and in many cases we strongly recommend consideration for removing both of the breasts. And then we offer reconstruction,

which of course is very important as well. But there are situations where removing the other breast really doesn't benefit you at all. And that's in the majority of women or in situations where doing a mastectomy primarily to treat a breast cancer may actually cause more complications for the patient and has been shown not to improve survival. So for example, if you have a breast cancer where you know you're going to need radiation after either a lumpectomy where you've conserved the breast or a mastectomy, it actually can cause more complications if you do the mastectomy for your reconstruction if you don't need to do it. We have very good screening now and you know some people who don't have a mutation will get a second breast cancer in the other breast but that's often also very treatable.

So I think we have to be sort of balance it for the patients. I also have patients who definitely do not need bilateral mastectomies, but there's a lot of anxiety about screening, biopsies. They don't want to be having MRIs alternating with mammograms. And in those situations, it may be that more surgery than you absolutely need is still the right choice for the patient. But in the majority of patients, that's not true. Dr. William Gratishar is with us from the Betty Bramson. He's the Betty Bramson professor. He is a professor of breast oncology. He is at Northwestern University.

Dr. Gratishar, why would someone young and otherwise healthy have an aneurysm during their chemo? Is there something about chemo that would cause that? Well, I was listening to that description and, you know, coming at this when the patient is not your own, it's difficult to make any concrete comment but you know more likely than not it had absolutely nothing to do with her breast cancer her treatment be it chemotherapy or radiation I could very well have been just a coincidence that she also had an aneurysm chemotherapy does not cause aneurysms radiation doesn't really cause aneurysm breast cancer doesn't cause aneurysms. Radiation doesn't really cause aneurysms.

Breast cancer doesn't cause aneurysms. So it's just an unfortunate circumstance based on what I can believe from the description. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know, recently I read an article. I know you hate it. Both you and Dr. Rugo must hate it when you have a patient say, I read an article or they say, I googled. And I wonder what the doctor thinks when I say I googled. I wonder if they just tune out automatically or if they stick with it and hear what I googled. But I read an article alleging that mammograms are really not the litmus test for breast cancer. I find that hard to believe. Maybe I don't want to believe it. But what do you make of that assertion, Dr. Grandachar? Well, I don't know

what the context was. I think we have to look at the tools that we currently have available. And no one, I think, would say that mammograms are perfect. No one, I'm sure Dr. Rugo wouldn't say that either. But it's the best tool we have that's been validated as a screening measure and we recognize that even with the best tools we have we still miss some breast cancers there are other extremes you know some people want to get MRIs and a variety of other tests but the problem there lies that they can be super sensitive finding all kinds of things that are absolutely unimportant leading leading to unnecessary biopsies and further evaluation. So mammograms still remain the best tool we have that's currently available.

And, of course, everybody's looking to try and optimize those or develop new technologies that will make it easier to detect breast cancer. And to that end, you know, there's been computer-assisted imaging and a variety of other tools that are being evaluated, but today it's still a mammogram. Okay, I just heard him jump in. I want to speak to that for a moment. That is true. The best is a mammogram, but my own breast cancer never showed up in a mammogram. It was only when they did an actual sonogram on me that they were able to find three tumors, and they were three tumors because I had had a mammogram and they hadn't picked it up six months before. I think that's such an important point, really an important point. This is Hope Rugo, that most of the cancers that are the most

aggressive or have worse outcome or need more intensive treatment are what we call interval cancers. They happen in between imaging. And if you're young and have dense breasts, you may not see these tumors at all. And I'm surprised how many postmenopausal women have dense breasts as well. So if you feel a lump and you feel something is wrong, that absolutely needs to be evaluated. And it's so important for women to be aware of their breasts and to examine them not in any clinical way but just understand what your breasts feel like and evaluate them once a month or so that helps you a lot because you know sometimes these cancers just show up with a lump and they don't already been seen on the mammogram you had last things we're hearing are computer-assisted imaging if anybody knows a

better way to say that i don't know is that 3d a 3d mammogram is that what that means because those exist they're okay good i'm making a wild guess here look i'm a jd not an md i need all the help i can get doctors uh so you've got the 3d mammogram. You have blood tests that can determine if you have the BRCA1 gene. Sonograms, you just heard Dr. Rugo and Dr. Grandichar speaking to mammograms and sonograms. What more can we do? Nancy, this is Barbara again. May I interrupt? Jump in.

This is Ellen's mom again. I just want to say that my breast cancer was found on mammogram, my annual one. That's how it was found. So I still think they're very important. And I do also want to agree with doctor who said that the chemo for Ellen probably had nothing to do with her death. And that was kind of what we were told by the neurologist at the hospital. So though she was being treated for sure and was in chemo, and was going through a tough chemo, because now I've been through two and I understand them better, that's not what she died of. And like I said, but mammograms are very important. And mine was found on mammograms, not the and mine was found on mammogram not the

same as Karen's that was a different experience. And there is a regular mammogram and a diagnostic mammogram I'm not really sure why you have to ask for a diagnostic mammogram why why do you have to ask for the diagnostic Dr. Grandeshar? Well, they do extra views. A diagnostic screening mammograms have more limited views, and it usually means that it is routine. There's nothing suspicious. Keep in mind, when you get exposed to mammograms, you're getting radiation. So when they do the additional views, which both take more time, expose you to more radiation. There's also a sense of urgency because the clinician or even the patient has detected something that they think is suspicious. So that is additional images that need to be done, whereas a screening mammogram is more limited.

And you don't want to get diagnostic mammograms on every patient. Dr. Rugo, when you're talking about radiation, a lot of people don't want a mammogram or an x-ray because of radiation. How severe is the risk of the radiation when you're getting a mammogram? This is an exceedingly low risk. The amount of radiation is very small. It's very focused. And the, you know, the, you always have to weigh benefit versus risk. And you think about all the times we're in airplanes being radiated. And in this situation, you're having something which might help with early diagnosis

in the right setting. Well, Dr. Arugo, I just want to tell you something. I appreciate what you just said, because I nearly tore the throat out of a dentist the other day that wanted to take an x-ray on my twins. I'm like, oh, H-E-L-L, no, because they'll get radiation. Now I feel like a big horse's rear end because I'm hearing what you're saying. There's another aspect, people. Women do not want mastectomies. They don't want to lose their breasts. And there's another concern. Take a listen to our friend Barry Peterson, our Cut 5 with CBS. Women say one of the most difficult things about chemotherapy for breast cancer is losing their hair. When the treatment kills cancer cells, it kills healthy hair cells right along with it. But for many women, it doesn't have to happen. There's a technique called cold caps used for decades in Europe but almost unknown here these brave women took us along their journey to save their hair and with it they say their identity and one of those women is our friend Karen

Stark take a listen to Karen in our cut three. I didn't want to have one more thing that I had no control over and the idea that I might I could still be me I could still look in the mirror I could still see myself and feel good about myself was very very important to me. It has to be fitted tightly on the patient's head to make good contact with the scalp. You can't dye your hair, you can't cut your hair, you can't, you know, comb. You have to be very careful how you wash it and there's just so many rules and more. The ice caps have to be frozen to an incredibly cold sub-zero temperature using either a special freezer or dry ice. Your head is being numbed, so it's kind of like an ice cream headache at first. And the caps have to be rotated on the patient's head

every 30 minutes to ensure that they keep the right cold temperature. I want women to know about this. It's so important to be able to maintain some normalcy in your life. You're not just saving your life, you're saving your hair. Karen Stark, your battle has gone on for so long, and here you are, a survivor, a warrior, speaking out. Could you describe for us the cold cap process and what it meant to you? Well, you know, Nancy, being a psychologist,

and I wanted to speak to that as well, the fact that when you get a breast cancer diagnosis, it's really interesting to think about where I am today, where I could speak about it so freely, and where I was in 2010, when there's something about it that's shameful because it's your breast. We don't go around exposing our breasts or talking about our breasts. And all of a sudden, you're telling people, if you choose to, that you had breast cancer. And it's the combination of cancer, the C word, that horrible thing that no one should ever talk about back in the day.

And then it's your breath that make it most difficult at least for me and um when i when i first found out all i could think about which sounds terrible but you know how could i lose my breasts and i didn't need chemo that first time so they did something on me called nipple sparing where they save your nipples and they saved my nipples but they took away my breasts and I felt like well I was still going to have a breast somehow that would be mine after I decided to go and remove my second breast what's fascinating is that I listened to my instincts I went I pursued five years of trying to get that other breast removed. And when I did, they found in my nipples that I had cancer again.

And it's very rare. It's really unusual. But it was worse cancer than the first time. So I did listen to my instincts. I wanted to include that. But part of saving my hair that second time was I'm a psychologist. I didn't want to lose my hair and wear something, a wig or something around my head and have people looking at me and saying, how is she doing? How is she feeling? I wanted my patients to be able to

talk to me about themselves, not about me. And it was really important that I save my hair for that reason. And also to, as I said, in that video, have some sense of control. I really concentrated on it. Exactly. And I give all the credit to not only Karen Stark for speaking out about her very prolonged battle and the cold cap process, but we have with us right now, Dr. Hope Rugo. And she's at Twitter at Hope Rugo, who got the cold cap process approved in the U.S. They had it in Europe, but not here. Dr. Rugo, I'm so grateful to you on behalf of so many women that have taken advantage of the cold cap process.

It's really incredible. You know that, right, what you did? Well, I think that a you know, a lot of people wanted to have cold caps available. And we were so lucky. Actually, I had a patient who, interestingly, is a lawyer. And she said, wait, how do I lose my hair? This is about 15 years ago. And I found this company in Sweden. Why don't you just import the machine? And I was like, well, you know, we can't do that. There's a lot of regulations here. But it started us on a path of working on the first trial,

actually, to look at cold caps in a prospective manner with FDA's guidance to see both the safety and effectiveness of using cold caps. And since that time, which started by a patient where many of our and maybe most of our best ideas come from, we were able to get FDA clearance for two automated cooling systems and huge awareness. And a phenomenal woman, Bethany Horntal, who helped us get philanthropic funding for our study, actually helped to start an organization which she now runs called Here to Stay that provides financial assistance for those

women who would like to use cold caps and can't afford it. So it's really gone incredible. The cost is overwhelming. I'm glad you said that. Christy Mazurik with me, Emmy Award winning investigative reporter. 288,000 new cases of invasive breast cancer will be tracked and there will be over 43,000 deaths. Christy, I've got so many questions about the stats, but I feel I have to speak to our survivors. Karen Stark, what is your message today to women listening and men? I think the most important thing, as I keep saying, is really follow what feels right for you. And everyone is very different. Karen, please, for what feels right with me, I don't want to even know.

So I have to get dragged in for a mammogram because I don't want to know, but I have to know because I want to be here for the twins. So following my instinct would be putting my head in the sand and my butt in the air. That's me. But give me something else. That's not just you. That's lots of people. And you have to go because this is your life, your one life. And the sooner you know what's going on, the sooner something can be done.

You want to catch something as soon as you can and make sure that you do whatever it takes to survive. Karen Stark. You want to survive and be with your twins, right? You're right, Karen, as usual. Karen Stark with us. You can find her online at karenstark.com. That's Karen with a C. John Killorn, our friend, E.K.'s brother, and Barbara Schott, her mom,

along with the incredible Dr. Rugo and Dr. Gratishar, Christy Mazurek, Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.