Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Bride sends out 'Save-the-Dates,' found stabbed 20 times, RULED SUICIDE!

Episode Date: November 6, 2020

Teacher and bride-to-be Ellen Greenberg is found inside a locked apartment stabbed 20 times, including the back of the neck. It's ruled a suicide but does the evidence support the claim? Greenberg's family has filed a lawsuit against the Philadelphia County Medical Examiner's Office to compel officials to change the cause of death back to homicide or undetermined.Joining Nancy Grace today: Sandee Greenberg - Mother Josh Greenberg - Father Darryl Cohen - Former Assistant District Attorney, Fulton County, Georgia, Defense Attorney  Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta Ga www.angelaarnoldmd.com  Tom Brennan - Private Investigator for the Greenbergs Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet" featured on "Poisonous Liaisons" on True Crime Network Brian Sheehan - reporter, WHP-TV Local 21 Follow the investigation on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/JusticeForEllen2019 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How can a beautiful, brilliant 27-year-old woman die of 20 stab wounds and it's a suicide? I'm not buying it. And her parents agree. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. As the world whizzes by around us between politics and this and that, this family is leading a crusade for justice.

Won't you join us? Let me tell you what happened. First of all, take a listen to this. Nearly a decade of long days and late night thoughts. But for Josh and Sandy Greenberg, it's been worth every minute. We didn't go away and we're not going away. For years, the couple struggled to get anyone to reinvestigate the death of their 27-year-old daughter Ellen, an elementary school teacher living in Philadelphia with her fiancé. The break we had in this whole thing.

Then just last month, a small victory. A Philadelphia judge ruled the couple could move forward with a lawsuit against the city's medical examiner in an attempt to get her official cause of death removed from the record. There's a murderer out there, mur killer, somebody who brut multiple stab wounds and and left her for dead. Th the city sees it. Instead Ellen stabbed herself 20

You were hearing our frie local 21 News. What happened to Ellen? Well, I can tell you this much. She did not commit suicide by stabbing herself 20 times in her kitchen floor. That did not happen. With me, an all-star panel to break it down and put it back together again. First of all, Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor in

inner city Atlanta, now defense attorney. Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist, joining us from the Atlanta jurisdiction at AngelaArnoldMD.com. The private investigator for the Greenberg family, Tom Brennan. He's been on the case trying to turn the tide toward justice for years now. Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, now the star of a new hit series, Poisonous Liaisons on the True Crime Network. Brian Sheehan, whose voice you just heard at WHP TV Local 21. And two very special guests that we have been longing to hear from, Sandy and Josh Greenberg.

These are Ellen's parents. Welcome to everyone, but first to Sandy and Josh Greenberg. I can't tell you how much it means to us to have you with us today. First of all, our condolences to you for what you've been through, not only when you lost your daughter, but having to fight this fight for so many years. Mrs. Greenberg, I just, what was your reaction when you learned that your daughter's death was ruled a suicide. It was tragic. It's like the curtain went down.

The world turned upside down. And we were heartbroken. We were devastated. devastated and it took a lot of sorting out because it was a very low point in our lives. I just don't understand how anybody in their right mind could believe with 20 stab wounds that could possibly in any way be a suicide unheard of, especially if you are familiar with the method and assessment of homicide and suicide. This ruling defies everything that's logical, that is. Let's take it from the beginning, how the whole thing start. Take a listen to our dear friend, Dr. Oz. 27-year-old Ellen Greenberg was a first grade teacher in Philadelphia.

She and her boyfriend of three years had just become engaged and began planning their wedding. January 26, 2011, Ellen's school let out early due to an oncoming blizzard. On her way home, she filled up her gas tank. She was at home with her fiance until 4.45 p.m. when he reportedly went to the gym in their apartment complex. When he arrived back to the apartment less than an hour later, he says he found the apartment locked from the inside. He claims he banged on the door and received no response. Over the next 22 minutes, he would try to convince Ellen to open the door through text messages. He claims, he claims, he claims. According to the fiancé, he is with her until 4.45 p.m.

He goes to the gym right there in their apartment complex. He comes back less than one hour later, and suddenly the door is locked from the inside. As I recall, and I'm going to have to get the private investigator to remind me, as I recall, she had been cooking dinner. So in less than one hour, everything has changed. She's gone suicidal, stabbed herself 20 times, and she's dead in the kitchen floor. To Mr. Greenberg, this is Ellen's father. That's a lot to happen. And let's just say 5-0, 50 minutes. When the fiance leaves the apartment, she's fine. He works out. And by the time he gets back, she's had a turn to commit suicide,

has stabbed herself 20 times and is dead in the kitchen floor after locking the doors. Now, that's a lot to happen in just 50 minutes. Would you agree, Mr. Greenberg? I would agree. And I would also point out that distribution of the wounds were 10 from the front and 10 from the back. And some were upward on the back, which makes it even more ridiculous. Wait a minute. Let me get Mr. Greenberg. This is Ellen's father. And you know how painful this is for them to discuss their daughter's injuries.

They are on a mission. And I'm on the bandwagon. A mission for justice because this is not a suicide. Mr. Greenberg, would you please repeat what you just said about the injuries to the back? There were at least 10, some in an upward direction. And there was what I would call and probably has been labeled a pivotal wound. That probably, according to one of the experts we've hired to help us through this thing, a forensic specialist, Wayne Ross, locally, this was an upward direction that severed the

spine and entered her brain. I don't have to explain to many people what happens when you sever the spine, what you're capable of and had a brain injury? It just doesn't make sense. Listen to what we learn from our friend Dr. Oz. At 6.33 p.m., her fiance says he forced open the door to find Ellen dead on the floor of the kitchen, stabbed 20 times in the chest, neck and head. There was a knife still lodged in her chest. Ellen was pronounced dead at 6.40 p.m. Investigators evaluating the scene and her autopsy ultimately stated that she died by suicide.

There were no obvious signs of an intruder or evidence of a struggle. There was no suicide note. As you just heard Dr. Oz say, no suicide note, but this young girl's death was ruled a suicide because there was no forced entry. That doesn't even make any sense. No sign of a struggle. Would there have been a struggle if someone had approached her from behind? Very quickly to you, Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor, now defense attorney. How many times did you or I, you and I, open a file and we see the victim is shot in the back? And we say immediately, well, this is not self-defense and this is not a suicide. They're shot in the back for pete's sake there

is no forget the logic first of all women don't commit suicide by stabbing themselves no they don't period now if she was trying to commit suicide how in the world ice eight nine ten times impossible physically impossible psychologically it's not going to happen with a woman. I don't understand where the autopsy went wrong. What Daryl is talking about, and he's correct, is over many, many years, statistics have been compiled that the Bible on this is method and assessment of homicide and suicide. And I had to read that, Daryl, when the daughter of a law partner here in Atlanta who was the friend of our elected district attorneys,

death was first believed to be a suicide, went to the scene. I had to learn all about what's a homicide, what's a suicide, and why. And Daryl is right. Categorically, suicides are divided into gender, male versus female, who would use a gun, who would use a knife, who would jump from a window, who would use poison, who would overdose, who would turn on the gas and go to sleep in sexy lingerie. I mean, you look at it through gender, through age, through economic divisions,

how people actually commit suicide. And it is very rare that you are going to find a woman in Ellen's position, her age, her gender, commit suicide in this manner. In fact, it's almost non-existent. But what I was trying to ask Daryl Cohen is when we would open a file at the DA's office and we see a victim is shot in the back, we automatically know it's not, it was not a self-defense shooting. We know that because a person is running away and we know that it's not a suicide. It's just common sense. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

I want to go now to Brian Sheehan. Brian, is it Sheehan or Sheehan? It's Sheehan, Nancy. At WHP TV Local 21, could you just give me the facts? Because as I recall, she's in the kitchen. Wasn't she chopping something up? She was chopping, from my knowledge, Nancy, she was chopping, I believe it was a fruit salad at the time. And the investigators claimed that she at some point went from chopping the salad to then stabbing herself erratically and was found against the cabinets on the kitchen floor. Hold on, Brian Sheehan, WHP TV. I just got to go to our shrink, Dr. Angela Arnold.

And I mean that in a loving, caring way. She's a renowned psychiatrist in the Atlanta jurisdiction at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Look, I'm just a JD. You're the MD. But it struck me that she stopped to get gas for her car. Who suicidal would be worried they need gas in the car for next week and there's an oncoming blizzard so they got to be ready? Who would think, oh, before I commit suicide, let me make a nice fruit salad. And then suddenly, as they're chopping up the strawberries and the apples, they go, you know, to hay with a fruit salad.

I'm just going to kill myself. It didn't happen this way, Angela. In addition to the pure forensics, and I know Joe Scott is chomping at the bit. It didn't happen this way. No, Nancy, there's no way this woman committed suicide. Can anybody imagine taking a knife and stabbing themselves in the back and going, oh, well, that didn't do it. Now I'm going to stab myself in the front and see if I die.

I mean, after one stab or slice, she would have been in so much pain, she could not have kept... Also, there's no way she could stab herself, as Mr. Greenberg said, in an upward and pivotal manner, in the back. It's physically impossible, Angela. No, it doesn't make any sense to me at all.

And like you said, Nancy, why in the world? You know, there's certain signs before somebody commits suicide. All right? Like? Stopping at gas in your car is not a sign that you're planning on doing away with your life and to be fixing a salad. Those are things that you're moving ahead in life. There are other things that people do. They leave suicide notes. They give things away. They get ready to be gone. Okay. But the things that she was doing were not indicative of things that she was doing to be ready to be gone from this earth. To Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, author of Blood Beneath My Feet. He is a death investigator. Okay, Joe Scott, hit me. I've got to tell you, Nancy, looking at the totality of the evidence here, just her body alone, when you start to talk about

this multiplicity of wounds, we're talking, as Mr. Greenberg had mentioned just a moment ago, these 10 posterior or on the back of her neck injuries that she has sustained. Slow down, slow down, okay? Because Mr. and Ms. Greenberg and the PI, Tom Brennan, and you, as well as Brian Sheehan from WHP, know this so well for the rest of us. It's like drinking from the fire hydrant. It's too much, too fast. Now, start with injuries to the back of the neck, how you could stab yourself in the back of the neck.

It's impossible. Go ahead. I don't see how it is, Nancy. And, you know, if our listeners will simply just reach behind your head, okay, and clasp your hands and get this idea that when you do this and you make a downward motion, and it is a downward motion, if you bend at your elbows and come down with that, that is going to give you a downward trajectory. It's not going to be an upward trajectory. It's very simple. It's not rocket science. And for me, one of the most telling things throughout this is if your listeners who are so bright,

you know, we've got so many listeners out there that are really tuned in. If you will find the little knot on the back of your skull and go down about probably two inches, you'll find the area where they're talking about the second vertebral or cervical vertebral body and the third. Nancy, this blade that was later found obviously in her chest, this blade actually passed through these two structures and nicked, nicked, okay, the spinal cord. If people will think about an electrical cord at home, there's a rubber wrapping on the outside of this, okay? And what that rubber wrapping is there for is to protect, you know, those pathways within the spinal cord that control things. At that level, at that level alone, that's a lethal, that's lethal. It comes

down to the point where it's going to compromise your ability to conduct motor function. So, the fact that even in the autopsy report, which I thoroughly read. I think what you're saying in regular people talk is that once that knife wound had been inflicted just below the knot on your neck, she wouldn't have been able to do anything else. No, no, she couldn't. And that's what makes this so very implausible. Another thing I'm wondering about is the sequence of events as they played out how did the timing work in just the 45 to 50 minute window the fiance was gone to work out that is when she is overcome with a suicidal urge and she locks herself in the apartment and commits suicide. Then the fiance comes back and he breaks in to find her dead. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Guys, again, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. This case is screaming for justice. I want you to listen to Ellen's parents who are with us right now to Sandy and Josh Greenberg. Ms. Greenberg, do you remember the day you learned your daughter had passed away? What happened? We got a phone call on our landline from Richard Goldberg saying that something terrible had happened to Ellie. And I screamed for my husband to pick up the other line you know so he could hear too and I said where's the ambulance and they said there is no ambulance and I didn't quite I kind of don't remember much more we

kind of blacked out it's like, I guess the word is shock. It was like total shock. You know, you're not prepared for this. You don't expect this. Why would this happen, and what's wrong? And why are you calling, and why is there no ambulance? Could you explain who is Richard? Richard is the father of the fiancé.

So the fiancé, what what was the fiance's name? Samuel. Yes. Goldberg. Sorry. The fiance calls his father? No, the fiance did not call. His father called Josh and I. I think the answer to your question is, does that mean that the fiancé didn't call us, that the fiancé called his father? And we do know he also called some other relatives, which we can get into if you want. I do. But not us. Oh, I want to. You mean he called some of his own relatives or Ellen's relatives?

No, he didn't call us. We, after this whole thing had started and it was turned around and we started investigating, it led us on a trail or it's leading us on a trail that is not very pretty. He called his uncle. His uncle happens to be a attorney in Philadelphia. Very well-known attorney in Philadelphia. And I think he called his cousin, the uncle's son, also. Did he ever call 911?

Yes, there is a 911 call. I can't tell you the sequence because I don't have the facts. Tom may have the better knowledge of the facts. Let's go to Tom on that. Tom Brennan, he is the PI for the Greenbergs. Tom Brennan, thank you for being with us. Tom, how many people did the boyfriend call Samuel Goldberg? I'll be referring to him as Goldberg.

There's Ellen Greenberg, fiancé Samuel Goldberg. So to you, Tom Brennan, how many people did the fiance call before he called Ellen's parents? Approximately four. Where did 911 fit into this scenario? That we could identify. What you have to understand is there were several trips by the fiance up to the apartment door and back down to the concierge desk during this period of time. And he was approaching the concierge to get him to help him enter the apartment. The concierge refused because it was against company policy and informed the fiancé of that, that he could not do that. There's statements by the fiancé saying that he was accompanied, but we were able to prove that he was unaccompanied when the entry was made.

And if you take a look at the film, the crime scene photographs, and take a look at the swing lock on the apartment door, on the interior of the apartment door, that is very, very telling. What does it tell? If, in fact, you hit that lock, okay, as supposedly was done, then one or the other portion of that lock would have to become completely dislodged in order for that lock to open. If you take a look at the crime scene photographs, both pieces, the piece that's mounted on the door and the piece that's mounted on the door jamb are still there. Are still intact.

Got it. Are still intact. To Brian Sheehan, WHP TV, Local 21. Brian, I'm trying to identify how many calls we believe the fiance who is not a suspect has not been named a suspect by police how many calls did he make before he got a hold before he dialed the parents who called 9-1-1 and was 9-1-1 the first call made do you know that brian you know nancy i do not know call made? Do you know that, Brian? You know, Nancy, I do not know that. As you mentioned and as the Greenberg said, there were several phone calls that were made. The sequence of events, I did not have that as part of our investigation that we did.

Give me your input, Brian Sheehan. What sticks out to you? I mean, where do you begin? I mean, when I first looked at this case, you know, more than a year ago, and remember, I came in nine years later. So we didn't have a lot of the material. A lot of the material was provided to me by the Greenbergs and their attorney and Mr. Brennan. But you just look at the sequence of events. You know, when I first heard the case, I thought, you know, I didn't know all the details. So I thought, you know, it was a 27 year old woman who commits suicide. You hear her parents

don't believe it. You think, okay, she was an only child. The parents can't understand or wrap their mind around the fact that their daughter would tragically take her own life. Then you just take a look at the fact that there was 20 stab wounds. And then as we have discussed where the stab wounds were, the sequence of events in terms of filling up her gas tank, coming home, making a salad, and then erratically, allegedly, starting to stab herself 20 times to kill herself with no warning signs, no apparent warning signs.

And there were some, and I don't know how much you want to get into this, but from the Office of the Attorney General here in Pennsylvania, who the case was referred to later, I don't know how, it was in 2011. I'm sorry, they received the case in 2018 for a conflict referral. I don't know how much you want to get into that, but that is something that we did include in our story as well. And their reasoning for the suicide.

I know that she had had anxiety, but why anxiety? What was giving her anxiety? Did it have anything to do with her engagement? I'm curious. Why did she have anxiety and anxiety? We all have anxiety anxiety that is not suicidal ideation so i i still am not understand jump in the diagnosis ellen was not behaving the way we normally said if my wife wanted to insult ellen she said she would behave like me

that's not a compliment, by the way. So Ellen and I, because Ellen, something we haven't touched on, had said she wanted to come home. We arranged, I made a deal. If Ellen saw a psychiatrist, because I could not handle what was wrong with her, I could not treat her, I didn't have the knowledge. And the psychiatrist said, yes, you can come home. This is after we had just sent out the whole estate for a wedding. Her diagnosis was an adjustment disorder with anxiety,

not even a depressive disorder. crime stories with nancy grace guys we're talking about the death of a beautiful young girl just 27 years old teacher just got home from work uh a blizzard was coming she stops to get gas she's in her apartment making a fruit salad her fiance who is not a suspect named by police, says he goes to exercise, comes back. She has stabbed herself 20 times, including in the back, the back of the neck, and has a knife lodged in her chest there in the kitchen. Police say they decided it was suicide because the door had been locked, according to the fiance, and the fiance was still on the kitchen. Police say they decided it was suicide because the door had been locked, according to the fiance, and the fiance was still on the scene. We are learning also that

Goldberg was instructed to start CPR. That's when he noticed there was a knife in her chest. He did not notice it before then. Also, he tried to get the security guard to come up and break the lock. The security guard wouldn't do it. He is the one that forced the door open, and then he called 911. So if anyone knew about the position of the lock, it would have been the fiance. Guys, listen to this. She was stabbed 20 times, half of the wounds to the back of her neck. You talk to any reasonable person

and they all say, what the hell is going on? Tom Brennan logged 25 years with the Pennsylvania State Police and worked at the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit in Quantico, Virginia. Now now retired he has worked nearly seven years pro bono with the Greenbergs investigating Ellen's death I said this is a homicide but the medical examiner's report says there was no sign of a

struggle nothing was obviously missing or disturbed only Ellen's DNA was found on the knife in her chest and Ellen had no defense injuries to her hands or forearms. Still, Brennan says none of that proves this was suicide. Didn't they ever hear a blitz where a victim doesn't get the opportunity to defend themselves? Such as someone standing at the kitchen sink making a fruit salad and is attacked from behind. Many of the attack marks were on the back of the neck, at least half of them indicating an attack from behind. You were just hearing CBS 3 Philly News reporter Jan Carabello speaking. Then amazingly, the cause of death is then changed straight out to Sandy Greenberg. This is Ellen's mother.

Why was the cause of death changed? Honestly, I don't know. We never got phone calls from the Philadelphia police or the medical examiner's office that this was changed, which was not very personal, but a lot of it is a big blur to me. I'd like to just mention one other thing. In the forensic investigation, there are two type of knife wounds mentioned, a smooth edge and a serrated edge knife wound. And that hasn't come up, but... I'm glad you said that. I want to mention that. Ms. Greenberg, because to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor of Forensics, Death Investigator, how could one person stab themselves with two different types of knives? It's highly implausible, Nancy. I don't earlier, this one

at the C2, C3 level, you know, that's enough to incapacitate her at that moment in time, I would think. Interestingly enough, and let me just throw this in as well, Dr., I believe it's Rourke Adams, who is one of the most highly respected former neuropathologists that means that she studies diseases and injuries of the brain and the spinal cord specifically um she is said to have reviewed this report okay and it's even stated in the in the autopsy report dr rourke has no recollection of this from my understanding. And so, yeah, sure.

Can I interrupt you there? Yes. Yes, sir. I want everybody to understand, okay, that paragraph identified as the examination by Dr. Rourke? Yes. Dr. Rourke has denied any knowledge of the case at all. She can't recall taking a look at the specimen. She can't recall the name of the victim.

And she stated that if, in fact, she did the examination, she would have submitted an invoice along with her report. There is no invoice and there is no copy of the report. And in that paragraph, even her name is misspelled. Tom Gray was talking about that. Okay, Tom, you're telling me the medical examiner has no recollection of this? Yes. What I'm telling you is, in my opinion, that paragraph that's contained in that autopsy report is fraudulent. The part about that from, well, Joe Scott Morgan,

you're hearing what he's saying about Dr. Roark. I just don't understand why this case. Yeah. Just let me tell you kind of how this works. You know, I work for the ME in Atlanta and the coroner in New Orleans. And when we would consult with a neuropathologist, and we did a lot, okay, we would send specimens out to any local Emory, I mean, to any local medical school where one of these people were. This is highly specialized. Yeah.

And your point is? My point is, is that this is evidence, Nancy, and that there is a linkage between this. You sign these things in, you sign them out. And the fact that she did not invoice them, there is no record of this. This is very troubling. Well, I think what you're trying to get at is, and I'll just put it in regular people talk, is that she did not do the work on the case and even her name is misspelled. Guys, take a listen to our friends at Oxygen. When the autopsy was over, the medical examiner issued a ruling that directly contradicted the initial findings of police investigators. The medical examiner believed it was a homicide.

One of the most striking things was the fact that a knife was still embedded in this young woman's chest. There is a significant degree of force probably needed to inflict that type of wound. That certainly is indicative of a homicide. The Emmy's homicide ruling officially turned Ellen's case into a murder investigation. But then three months after her death, the Emmy's homicide ruling officially turned Ellen's case into a murder investigation. But then three months after her death, the Emmy changes the ruling from homicide to suicide. To you, Tom Brennan, in a nutshell, what have you learned as to why suddenly a medical examiner would reverse themselves and go with suicide.

Well, from day one, the police walked into the apartment, took a look around, said suicide, and left. They even left the apartment unprotected. Okay, they didn't secure the crime scene. Following that, the following morning, the prominent attorney uncle and his son entered the apartment and removed the victim's cell phone, the victim's laptop, the victim's work laptop, and the fiance's laptop. The police didn't retrieve those items until January 29th. So what does that tell you about evidence, okay, on any of those items? To Sandy Greenberg, this is Ellen's mom. Sandy, what justification was given to you about why the ruling was changed from homicide to suicide? I, that she had no defensive wounds, and I think they said something about blood on her. No blood on her. Nancy, this is Josh Greenberg. I'm sorry to interrupt. Yes, sir. Tom interviewed

Dr. Osborne who changed it and Tom can, I'm sure, give you what he learned from Dr. Osborne and why he changed it. Tom? I was over a conference call with Dr. Osborne. My last question to Dr. Osborne was, why did you change the cause and manner of death from homicide to suicide? He said, I did it at the insistence of the police. I said, did any of those police officers have a degree in pathology? And with that, the conversation ended. Let me go straight out to Daryl Cohen, a former prosecutor.

What can be done now? The Greenbergs are going forward with a civil lawsuit, but how can the killer be brought to justice? Is this going to require the federal government stepping in? Nancy, I think, excuse me, I think that a special prosecutor will be what's in order. As we all know, there is not a statute of limitations on murder, but we've got to find the perpetrator. We've got to find the person who killed her. Okay, let me try to rephrase it, Daryl. The local DA is not acting.

The AG is not acting. What is the next choice? Now that I've put it to you like that, would you agree that this is going to involve federal intervention? No, I wouldn't necessarily agree. Okay, then what can they do? But Nancy, Nancy, what I would say is, first of all, we need to have a groundswell, the court of public opinion. If you can go to a local station, television station or stations, and their reporter who

you need to cozy up to will put a piece or two or five or ten on air, that gets to the local DA, that gets to everybody else, because these people are elected, not selected. And they know that if there's an unsolved murder, not death, but murder, then they're going to start paying attention. But you've got to get this groundswell. So go to the press. Go to social media. Go to every possible outlet you can go to to get this groundswell moving. I want to go to Josh Greenberg.

This is Ellen's dad. Tell me what you hope to gain through your civil lawsuit. Okay. My goal, my mission here, my purpose is to get justice for Ellen Tell me what you hope to gain through your civil lawsuit. We hope. OK, we're my goal. My mission here, my purpose is to get justice for Ellen and yes, see that the proper things happen. The lawsuit against the medical examiner is to try to get the certificate of death changed from suicide to homicide. We are all nice. I forgot who said that before me. That's what we're doing. We are all I forgot who said that before me. That's what we're doing. We have

we have, as you cut to various pieces during this piece very eloquently, I might add, we've been on Dr. Oz. We've had Brian Sheehan locally. We've had Jennifer Cabello. I hope I pronounced the names right. We've been on Inside Edition.

And now being here with you and having these experts who we have nothing, who we did not hire or pay for, say what they have said. We're hoping this will help us go forward. We also do know through documentation or discovery that the authorities in Philadelphia are aware of our media efforts. Is the same district attorney in office? No. Okay, that's a good sign. No. No, not a good sign. Why?

Let me explain. The fellow who is now the district attorney in Philadelphia was our attorney at the beginning of this. The reason that we went to the attorney general, which we thought would be a better place to be, he had to recuse himself because he's our attorney. So we went to the attorney general, and I have a special place in my heart for the attorney general because of the way he handled this case.

The lack of thoroughness, the lack of professionalism, the lack of anything to do with this case. I had an attorney who was a former attorney general for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania approach this gentleman and ask him if he wanted our documentation. though, when I mentioned these names, Henry Lee, Cyril Wecht, and Wayne Ross included their expert opinions. It included Tom's investigation and investigation photographs. It includes a whole mountain of evidence, I would say. We asked him to go to speak to Cyril Wecht, because Cyril Wecht's son, I believe, had helped him get elected. He said no. And he came back saying that because of the computer search, which he did not do, he doesn't have the ability, the capacity, or the budget to do,

proves that Ellen committed suicide. And we've already discussed those computers, that the chain of custody was broken. Guys, we are talking about the death of a beautiful young girl. I'm convinced in my heart she was murdered. In my heart and in my head. We wait as justice unfolds in the death of Ellen Greenberg. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye for now. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.