Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BRIDE STABBED 20 TIMES RULED SUICIDE, PARENTS FORCE CASE REOPENED!

Episode Date: February 7, 2025

Pre-order Nancy Grace's What Happened to Ellen?: An American Miscarriage of Justice, out April 22. Reserve your copy today: http://posthill.to/B0DBG9333Y   In the moments before a civil case was to get underway, the family of Ellen Greenberg and Philadelphia officials come to an agreement to reopen the death investigation of the young teacher. The settlement means that after 14 years, the  Philadelphia Medical Examiner's office will reopen and reinvestigate Greenberg's manner of death.  Ellen Greenberg was found stabbed 20 times in the head, back, neck and chest. Then her death was ruled a suicide. The attorney for the Greenberg's, Joseph Padraza, Jr says the settlement includes an agreement that the Philadelphia Medical Examiner’s Office will conduct an “expeditious” review of the manner of Greenberg’s 2011 death. The settlement is reached days after Doctor Marlon Osbourne, who conducted the autopsy, as the former assistant medical examiner with the ME's office, signed a sworn verification statement in which he says he now believes Ellen's manner of death should be designated as something other than suicide. Doctor Osbourne initially ruled Ellen Greenberg's death a homicide then changed the ruling to suicide. In a public statement, Doctor Marlon Osbourne said after reviewing additional information in the Ellen Greenberg case file obtained from the Philadelphia Police Department as well as a consult with Doctor Lucy Rorke-Adams, a pediatric neuropathologist, he decided to make the change. In his verification, Osbourne writes that he is now unsure of the series of events that happened that day. He also says he doesn't know "whether the door was forced open as reported; whether Ellen's body was moved by someone else inside the apartment with her at or near the time of her death, and the findings of Lindsey Emery, M.D., from her neuropathological evaluation of Ellen's cervical segment sample." Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Sandee and Josh Greenberg  -  Ellen Greenberg's Parents, Twitter: @justice4ellentw, Facebook: @justice4ellenFB, GoFundMe: https://gofund.me/920af299 Benee Knauer  -  Author, "What Happened To Ellen?: An American Miscarriage of Justice"  Joseph R. Podraza, Jr. - Attorney for Ellen Greenberg Family, Partner with Lamb McErlane  Caryn Stark - Psychologist, renowned TV and Radio trauma expert and consultant, www.carynstark.com, Instagram: carynpsych, FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice  Tom Brennan  - PI Consultant for Ellen Greenberg's family Guy D’Andrea - Former Prosecutor in Ellen Greenberg Case,  Attorney at Laffey Bucci D’Andrea Reich & Ryan Joseph Scott Morgan  -  Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", @JoScottForensic John Luciew  - Journalist for PennLive.com and The Patriot-News of Harrisburg, Pa.,  Author: “Kill the Story”, Twitter: @JohnLuciew  Pre-order Nancy Grace's What Happened to Ellen?: An American Miscarriage of Justice, out April 22. Reserve your copy today: http://posthill.to/B0DBG9333YSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A beautiful young bride-to-be stabbed 20 times, including in the back, the back of the head, the back of the head, the back of the neck ruled suicide. Tonight, her parents force this case to be reopened. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. A shocking admission by the pathologist in the stabbing death of Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg. The case to be reopened.

It all starts here. Listen. I just walked into my apartment. She's on the floor with blood everywhere. What is the address? Please tell me. Help. Oh, no.

Oh, no. Please, Harry, please. Where is she bleeding from? I don't know. I can't tell. You have to calm yourself down in order to get you some help. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I don't know. I'm looking at her right now. I can't see anything. There's nothing broken. She's bleeding. Allie. You don't know where she's bleeding from? Allie.

Where's the blood coming from? I think her head. I put her blood everywhere. It's everywhere. She might have fallen. Do you know what happened? She may have slipped his blood on the table. Her face is a little purple. Okay, hold on for rescue for her. Stay on the phone. May have fallen. May have fallen on a knife 20 times. May have slipped. Straight out to very special guests joining us tonight. Ellen's parents that I now call friends. Josh and Sandy Greenberg.

Do you know how much I hate playing the 911 call, especially when you're with me? Every time I play it, Sandy, I literally get chills. She did not fall on a knife 20 times. The phone call is chilling. Every time I hear it, it's the way I heard it in the very beginning. Let's look at what he sees when he walks in. You're going to tell me he didn't see a five or six inch handle of a knife stuck in my daughter's chest with her left hand on it, wrapped around a white towel. That completely was unobservable from walking in. Come on. The whole thing is so bogus.

I'm glad you mentioned that white towel, Josh. And I don't want to go to inside baseball because the three of us, uh, well, everybody on the panel knows these facts so well, but for those of you just joining us tonight, Ellen, I feel like I know Ellen so well now, but I only met her in death. Ellen, sharing a luxury apartment with her fiance, Sam Goldberg, is found brutally stabbed and some of us think strangled as well in the short space of time when her fiance left the apartment to go in the building's gym to work out. When Josh, these are Ellen's parents. Okay. And you may think sometimes they seem really calm. You know what they are? They're exhausted. They've been fighting this fight for years. They spent all their energy, all their time, all their savings, everything trying to prove Ellen did not commit suicide. And in the last days, joining me to explain John Lucy, journalist, PennLive.com and Patriot News of Harrisburg, specializing in

true crime, author of Kill the Story. John, I can't believe we're right here right now. We've actually had good news after all these years of this ridiculous. Actually, it's not ridiculous. It's a cover up, a cover up about Ellen's murder. Tell everyone what has just happened. Well, that allegation of a cover up was about to go to a jury trial in Philadelphia. But in a stunning reversal, the pathologist Marlon Osborne, who conducted Ellen's autopsy in 2011 and initially ruled it a homicide by 20 knife wounds, and then about two months later, changed it to suicide under pressure from detectives who, according to the Greenberg

lawyers, botched the case from the very beginning, losing basically all the evidence that was at the scene, pressured him to change it to suicide, and he did on April 4th, 2011. That's where we've been for 14 years until earlier this week when Osborne, in a stunning reversal, said he was wrong. He would classify the case as something other than suicide. And he listed- Hold on, John, John, John. Everything you're saying is correct, but you got me drinking from the fire hydrant. It's just too much to take in right now.

So hold on, I'm gonna dissect everything you said and everybody on the panel, please jump in. Let me go straight out to Tom Brennan, long time family friend who took on this case. Hey, Tom, A, congratulations. I almost hate to say it because I don't want to jinx the case going forward, but it's stunning to me how now after 14 years of the parents fighting, they just sold their house. They put all their money, all their time, all their energy into clearing Ellen's name. That's all they've got left. This is their only child, right? And they

know she did not commit suicide. But the fact that it's taken Osborne 14 years to say, oh yeah, I screwed up. But listen to this, Tom. In a public statement, Dr. Marlon Osborne said after reviewing additional information in the Ellen Greenberg case file obtained from the Philadelphia Police Department, as well as a consult with Dr. Lucy Rourke Adams, a pediatric neuropathologist, he decided to make the change. In his verification, Osborne writes that he is now unsure of the series of events that happened that day. He also says he doesn't know whether the door was forced open as reported, whether Ellen's body was moved by someone else inside the apartment with her at or near the time of her death, and the findings of Lindsay Emory, MD, from her neuropathological evaluation of Ellen's cervical segment sample. Okay, that's a lot to take in. Let's go back to the 911 call. Listen.

How's that, PSI? It's from 842. Who's the head of that? No, people. 4601 Flat Rock Road. Please, Harry. 4601 Flat Rock? Yes.

What's wrong? Mike, I just, my, I went downstairs to go work out. I came back up. The door was latched. My fiance's inside. She wasn't answering. So after about a half hour, I decided to break it down. I see her now just on the floor with blood.

She's not responding. Okay. Is she breathing? I can't. Look at her chest. I need you to calm down. I need you to look at her chest. I don't think she is. I really don't think she is. Listen to me. Someone's on the way. not on her back.

Joining me, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, Death Investigator, with over a thousand death investigations under his belt, star of a hit podcast, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, you and I, mostly you, did a complete reenact of what happened to Ellen. Okay? She was propped up. Yes, her rear end was on the floor in the kitchen, but she was propped up in a way against the kitchen cabinet. Right? So, yeah, Nancy, you know, back when we did the recreation of Ellen's apartment,

one of the things that we made note of at that particular time, and this is quite glaring as well, is that she had essentially a streak of blood that was, remember, we have to frame this and say that she was in a seated upright position. She had a streak of blood that was literally running parallel to her shoulders. Viscous fluid or any kind of fluid doesn't work that way per the laws of gravity. It flows downward. So at some point in time, she was seated or moved upwards, probably from a position where she was laying down and the blood had streaked from her mouth at that point in time

and was running parallel to her shoulders. And of course, something doesn't fit with that. And I think that any investigator that's working at the scene, particularly observing a body worth their salt, would make note of that. Obviously, at the beginning, that would be a huge red flag. You would have to say, well, how in the world could the blood flow be in that position relative to the position we're observing her in now? And of course. Hey, Joe Scott. Yes. Joe Scott. I love the way that John Lucy put it. He refers to it as the wrong way blood. Listen, we call that the wrong way blood. And it's one of the many anomalies

at the crime scene that was treated as a suicide scene the night of her death and thus never preserved and never processed. That is the original sin of this whole case. When we're talking about wrong way blood. OK, now, why is Joe Scott talking about wrong way blood? When I asked him, wasn't Ellen sitting up, propped back against, sitting on the floor, propped back against the kitchen cabinets? Okay, he immediately, in his mind, he's three steps ahead of everybody else, went to the wrong way blood. What does that mean? That means that the blood on Ellen, she's sitting up is going like this. Okay. I believe in gravity. I know about Sir Isaac Newton. So why is the blood not only going the wrong way across her face, for instance, nose to to ear if she said it doesn't match the way

her body is found and not only that the blood was dried okay so how long John Lucy hey let me go to Binet now we're us. Benet and I have researched this case with the help of so many people, including Sandy and Josh. And we went through every single report, every single document. Benet Nauer, co-author with me of What Happened to Ellen and an American Miscarriage of Justice. P.S. All of the proceeds are going to National Center of Missing and Exploited Children. Benet, how long approximately do we think Goldberg, the fiance, was gone from the apartment in the workout room? We don't think it was even an hour. We don't believe it possibly could have been two hours.

We don't believe it was even an hour. Joining us in addition to Josh and Sandy Greenberg, Benay Nauer, Joe Scott Morgan, John Lucy, to Tom Brennan. What do you think, Tom? How long was Goldberg out of the apartment to go to the workout room? Possibly 45 minutes. And Tom, I knew you were going to say that, but I don't know this. Why do you say that? Why do you think it was 45 minutes? Because we can observe him on the security cameras from the building,

where he walked down the hall to go into the gym, and when he came out of the gym. It's on the videotapes. The stabbing death of a 27-year-old Philly teacher to be reinvestigated as the medical examiner says he was wrong. The family fights for years to get a suicide ruling changed. It all started here. Listen. Okay, do you know how to do CPR? I don't. Okay, I'm going to tell you what to do, okay, until they get here.

I want you to keep your phone. Oh, God. Hold on. Yeah, hi, okay. We'll do CPR with me over the phone until they get here. I have to, right? Okay, get her flat on her back, bare her chest, okay, my ripper shirt off. Okay, kneel down by her side. Oh, my God. Allie, please.

Listen, listen, you can't freak out, sir, because you have to. Okay, I'm trying to, I'm trying to. Her shirt won't come off. It's a zipper. Oh, my God, it's a zipper. Oh, my God, it's a zipper. Oh, my God, it's a zipper. Oh, my God, it's a zipper.

Oh, my God, it's a zipper. Oh, my God, it's a zipper. Oh, my God, it's a zipper. Oh, my God, it's a zipper. Oh, my God, it's a zipper. Oh, my God, it's a zipper. Oh, my God, it's a zipper. Oh, my God, it's a zipper. Oh, my God, Allie, please. Man, listen, you can't freak out, sir. Okay, I'm trying not to. I'm trying not to. Her shirt won't come off. It's a zipper. Oh my God, she stabbed herself. Where?

She fell on a knife. Oh no, her knife's sticking out. A what? There's a knife sticking out of her heart. Oh, she stabbed herself? I guess so. I don't know where she fell on it. I don't know. Okay, well, don't touch it. Will a jury ever hear these 911 calls? Well, as of now, they're one inch closer to hearing them.

In the last days, a stunning turn of events after a 14-year battle. Imagine going through the devastation of learning your daughter is dead in the midst of planning a wedding. A guy she truly believed she loved. He was Mr. Big, right? Then to find out it was suicide. Then in the middle of her memorial at the synagogue to find out, no, it's not suicide. It's homicide. Only to have the medical examiner go at a closed door meeting with police and district attorneys, who I might add, one of them has actually gotten immunity in this. So she can't be prosecuted. That stinks to high heaven and have it now ruled back to suicide to Sandy and Josh Greenberg, who have been through so much. I mean, hell on earth. You can find them at Justice for Ellen.

Sandy, why is it the settlement happens as you're about to strike a jury after 14 years and bring all these people, including the medical examiner, the police, others in to tell what happened in that closed door meeting? And then suddenly, oh, no, no, no, no, no. They don't want that. And there's a settlement at the midnight hour, the 12th hour, the last minute, as the jury is literally about to be picked. What happened, Sandy? The city got together. I guess they were not prepared to really go to trial. They were hoping that they would all have high immunity and everyone would get off. We didn't back down and they made a proposal, which Joe and Will explained to Josh and I. It took a little Explanation. and will explain to Josh and I. It took a little... Explanation. Explanation.

It still hasn't completely sunk in, but at least we've turned the corner. I don't see why the city has to do another examination on a body that's been in the ground for almost 15 years. But we had to agree to that we had to agree that there are really four options that the medical examiner come up come up with two of which are homicide and two of which are homicide and unexplained one and the third one accidental and suicide we know it's not accidental. We know it's not suicide.

So that leaves us homicide and undetermined. That's what the city is going to come up with, probably. I can't say for sure anything. I will say that I still don't trust the city at all. Well, for good reason, Josh. For good reason, you don't trust the city at all. Well, for good reason, Josh. For good reason you don't trust the city. So you're telling me, Josh, that Ellen is going to be exhumed?

Not if I have anything to say about it. It said the city spokesperson said that the medical examiner will go through her autopsy file. Big deal. Cut that out. Last night I saw that. You know, I'm very curious because Sandy and Josh,

if Benet and I could, with the help of Joe Scott Morgan and Dr. Dupree and others, if we could go through the file and find all of these problems and inconsistencies and bruises and bruises to her strap muscles indicating she was strangled, defensive bruises on her body, so much evidence that she was killed. If we can find that, I'd be very surprised if someone else can't find it. Guys, joining me right now is a very special guest. And I'll tell you why. Guy D'Andrea is with us. He's now a trial lawyer with Laffey, Bucci, D'Andrea, Reich, and Ryan. But for my purpose, it's so important.

He was in the DA's office at the time they were looking at Ellen's case. And somehow after the medical examiner said, oh yeah, Ellen was murdered. There was a closed door meeting with a member of the DA's office and police. That assistant DA has been given immunity in this. That stinks, guys. Why would a prosecutor who is charged with upholding the law and always doing the right thing have to have immunity for what she said or did in this closed door meeting? Guy D'Andrea, you took a big red flag at the time and was waving it back and forth. I think this is a homicide. What happened, Guy? And who was the elected D.A. at that time? Yes, Nancy, the elected D.A. at the time was Seth Williams. I did raise the red flag after doing a thorough and full investigation that this, from my perspective, not based on opinion,

but based on evidence that you went over copiously today, that she was killed by homicide, period, end of story. And I propose that. And the conclusion that was reached is that the review would be changed to homicide after the neuropathologist, the independent one that was hired, came up with their conclusions. So long as the conclusions were that her spinal column was pierced. And in fact, it was. I had left the office. So I thought as of 2017, Nancy, this would be changed. And here we are in 2025. As you said, on the 12th hour, they finally caved, I guess a little bit, we'll call it. But there's now going to be an investigation, at least, Guy. Well, an investigation 14 years later that should have took place, quite frankly, in 2011. If not in 2011, certainly in 2015, 16 and 17, when I was looking at it saying, this isn't right. Look at the evidence. How are we making this conclusion? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me is renowned psychologist, joining us out of Manhattan, TV radio trauma expert.

You can find her at KarenStark.com. That's Karen with a C if you're looking for her. Karen Stark, you and I have discussed the old, old story of David and Goliath, right? Here you have. It's almost making me tear up, Karen. You've got Josh and Sandy. You've got Pedraza and Brennan who've been working for free now forever trying to attack this case.

And this couple, Sandy and Josh, are taking on not only the city of Philadelphia, not only the district attorney's office, but the then AG, now governor, Josh Shapiro, who had a chance to open this and did not. I mean, it's got to be so overwhelming, Karen Stark. And to have to live with it for so many years, Nancy, knowing that this is your one and only child and there's no way that she could commit suicide, that she would do that. It doesn't even make any sense. Women don't stab themselves most of the time they take pills or something that was not physical. And how could she do that to herself? And they had to live with it.

The best thing that ever could have happened is that they didn't give up, that they had purpose, they focused, and they were able to do something eventually. Because that kind of grief, it just doesn't go away. It's the worst thing you could possibly think of, right? Your child is dead. A shocking admission by the pathologist in the stabbing death of Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg. The case to be reopened. Okay, do you know how to do CPR? I don't. Okay, I'm going to tell you what to do, okay, until they get there. I want you to keep her... Oh, God.

Hello? Yeah, hi, okay. We're going to do CPR with me over the phone until they get there. I have to, right? Okay, get her flat on her back, bare her chest, okay, my ripper shirt off. Okay, kneel down by her side. Oh, my God. Allie, please.

Listen, listen. You can't freak out, sir. Okay, I'm trying not to. I'm trying not to. Her shirt won't come off. It's a zipper. Oh my God. She stabbed herself.

Where? She fell on a knife. Oh no. Her knife's sticking out. A what? There's a knife sticking out of her heart. Oh, she stabbed herself? I guess so.

I don't know where she fell on it. I don't know. Okay, well don't touch it. And that is where the specter of suicide first rears its ugly head. Right there in the fiance's 911 call. She stabbed herself. She fell on a knife. Joining me in addition to Ellen's parents, a guy who has been on this case from the very beginning and has stuck with it. John Lucy is with me. PennLive.com, Patriot News Harrisburg, also specialty true crime, author of Kill the Story. John, earlier when we first started talking tonight, Josh, Ellen's dad, brought up a pristine white dishrag that Ellen was holding in one hand.

No blood on it at all. Now, let me understand this, John. So there's a blizzard that day. She leaves her little elementary school students early. Then she calls all the parents to make sure they get home. She stops, get her gas, gets her car ready in case she needs to go somewhere in the snow, comes home and starts making, I guess, lunch or dinner, a big fruit salad. And in the middle of the fruit salad, she goes, oh, to hell with this. I'm going to kill myself.

That's the theory, right? And yeah, that's the theory. And that was the operating assumption of the people who responded on that snowy night, the detectives. And there was a representative from the ME's office. They bought into that narrative of suicide. And because of that, there was no forensics. The crime scene, the scene was not preserved as a crime scene because suicide is not a crime. It is a crime, but it's against yourself. So that's why this case never went anywhere. Even after Osborne wrote a homicide, the detectives went back a couple of days later with a search warrant and a forensics team.

But the place had been sanitized, the entire apartment. There was nothing left. There was nothing to investigate. And, you know, the one thing about this case where we're at now, yes, the M.E. is going to look at the manner of death one more time. But also, I mean, there's a homicide that has yet to be solved here. That's that that is now who's going to do it. The FBI, the A.G.'s office, the county district attorney where it resides and is currently an inacted. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Pedraza, help me out here. We cannot have the Pennsylvania attorney general's office take this because they've got too many connections to the then AG Shapiro. Okay. That can't be.

Typically, everybody, when we're talking about the AG, that's like the top cop within the state. There's also an AG for the U.S. government, right? For the United States. Every state has an attorney general. So if you think your local DA is screwing up, is falsifying, is not doing their job, you take it up to the top cop, the attorney general, right? The attorney general at the time of this incident was Shapiro.

He's now the government. It's got to be the feds, Pedraza. There are too many connections with AG's office and I'm not impugning integrity on any of them. It's just like I say, hey, Jackie, I want you to investigate me. We're friends. We work together every day. That has the stink of impropriety. Can't do that.

Well, that's agreed, Nancy. And ideally, what we'd like to do is to have a special prosecutor, especially assigned to the case, given its history, one who is acceptable not only to the family, but also has a reputable reputation as a prosecutor within the resources

of the powers of grand jury, et cetera, at their disposal to go forward. Now, whether that is a federal prosecutor or a state prosecutor, we don't really fancy either one as long as they're objective, confident, and committed. But as Brennan, Pedraza, and I are discussing, if this case is ruled homicide, which it should be, that opens this up to a criminal investigation if the district attorney has the backbone to do it. And if not, maybe an independent prosecutor will. Now that leads me to the specter of a cover-up. Listen. The second suit, which was filed in 2022 and slated for trial this week at City Hall, alleged the investigation into Greenberg's death was embarrassingly botched and resulted in a cover-up by Philadelphia authorities.

It sought monetary damages for intentional infliction of emotional distress against several city employees who were involved in the door and you said, last day shut? No, no. I went downstairs to work out and when I came back up, the door was latched. Oh. It wasn't like it was, you know, it was locked from the inside and I'm yelling and I'm telling you,

I'm yelling in the end. Was the job broken into? No, no, no, no, no. So no sign of a break-in? No, no sign of a break-in at all. I mean, there will be when you get here because I had to break the latch to get in. Okay, 4601 Flat Rock and this is the house, right? It's an apartment, apartment 603. Okay, thank you. Oh my God, ohened to Ellen Allpreis proceeds going to National Center Missing Exploited Children.

Menae, also, Mr. Goldberg stated that he asked the front desk security to come with him when he knocked down the door. And that he had a witness, the front desk security person. Correct? Yes, no. That's correct. Okay. Isn't it true that we located the front desk security person and that security person signed an affidavit. And what did the security person say in the affidavit? He said he was asked to accompany Sam and told him absolutely he could

not, that he could not leave his desk and that he absolutely did not accompany him. He was not at that door. He stated that over and over and over again in that affidavit. Another interesting theory emerging. Listen. Dr. Greenberg is walking through the courthouse and tells some reporters Ellen, considering she was found with 20 knife wounds in her head, neck, back and chest. Dr. Greenberg says he thinks his daughter was strangled. Forensic pathologist Dr. Wayne K Ross is commissioned by the Greenberg's to review the case dr. Ross says there's evidence of strangulation Ross says there's a mark over the front of the neck and in the strap muscles over the right side of the neck

claiming these patterns are compatible with a manual strangulation Ross also points out the number of bruises over different parts of Greenberg's body are consistent with repeated beatings he He writes, It is my opinion that the investigating authorities should pursue this case as a homicide. It is further my opinion, to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, that the manner of death is a homicide. The scene findings were indicative of a homicide. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Joseph Scott Morgan joining me, death investigator at Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University.

Of course, I'm just a layperson, right? But she bled. If she were already dead from strangulation, I don't think there would have been copious amounts of blood, number one. Number two, there is evidence of strangulation, and specifically the bruising under the skin, bruising under strap muscles is clearly strangling. She doesn't have to be strangled dead to undergo a strangulation and then a stabbing. Why can't both be true?

I'm going to say something very plainly here, Nancy, and I don't care who hears it or what they think about it. This has all of the earmarks of what we refer to as overkill. have an intimate event like this, and when I say intimate, I'm talking about from a homicide perspective, where you have 20, 2-0 stab wounds to an individual. These are things that we see, Nancy, when there is a tremendous amount of passion over all of my career working at two major coroner and medical examiner's offices. I have never seen, never seen a case where I've had 20 self-inflicted stab wounds to an individual. And then we come to these anomalies on the neck that Josh has pointed out. You had external, and right there you can see it very plainly. You have an external manifestation of these anomalies. Nancy, this is not mentioned anywhere in the autopsy report. And one more thing, when you have this idea of an intimate overkill event, particularly with a female, one of the things that you're going to do

is in the neck, in the neck, and there's only cursory mention of an absence of hemorrhage, which is striking to me in the autopsy report. The neck is very complex relative to this network of muscles. You had mentioned the strap muscles. You literally at autopsy, and I participated in this hundreds of times, you literally dissect each muscle group and you flip it back and you look at it both on the anterior, that means the front section and posterior, the back section. was applied to the neck. Now, she's already in a compromised position where she's been so freaking traumatized relative to these knife wounds. It would not take too much to push this precious angel over the edge relative to her ability to uptake oxygen. Do you hear what I'm saying?

So all of these things can, you do have concurrence here. I'm just amazed, Nancy, that there is no mention of this in the autopsy report. As a matter of fact, if you look at the internal where it's listed as internal section, it's just a passing thing to state that there is nothing there. And one more thing, and I'll shut my mouth. Over the course of my career, I have never seen a case where an ME changed the manner of death three times. I've seen it happen. Most of the time, what happens is you go with undetermined, then you go to suicide. You go to undetermined, then you go to homicide. You go to undetermined, then you go to suicide. You go to undetermined, then you go to homicide. You go to undetermined, then you go to accident.

That ain't what happened here. This is mind-blowing. So, Scott, in all the years I have investigated, prosecuted, and covered homicides, never once, never once have I seen a COD, cause of death, be changed like this. Usually, I see undetermined to homicide if there's any change at all. Usually they know at the get go what's happening. Now, I was following along everything you just said, but can I boil it down for you and get a simple yes, no. Ellen was stabbed 20 times and the back, the back of the neck, the back of the head covered in bruises. Yes. That's not suicide. Yes not suicide yes no no it's not suicide i'll plainly say that the ellen greenberg evidence includes searches allegedly made by greenberg

using google to research suicide methods the searches were not added to the greenberg evidence file until years after her death and guy d'andrea says he knows what was in the file. And Google searches about suicide by Ellen Greenberg was not in the evidence file. With me is Guy D'Andrea, who was in the district attorney's office at the time and reviewed with a fine tooth comb all the evidence. Guy, rapid fire. Isn't it true that Ellen's devices, her laptop and more were taken from the crime scene by members of the Goldberg family? Is that true? True. All of those devices were returned, were they not, after being requested? They were. Isn't it true that that is not SOP, standard operating procedure, for items to be taken from a scene? But wait, in this case, it was a suicide. So apparently there was nothing wrong with it.

Yes, no. No, it is not standing operating procedure. But this was a suicide. So possibly police didn't think there was anything wrong with it. To Sandy and Josh Greenberg, these devices belong to your daughter. Were you asked if Goldberg family members could take them? No. What did you have to do to get them back in a nutshell? Beg, borrow, and steal. Okay, but you did get them back. Now, here is my question to Guy D'Andrea. You state you carefully examined the

entire file and there was no evidence on her devices, any device, that she was looking up manners of suicide. Is that true? That's true, Nancy. There was no reports of searching for suicide, but more importantly, the computers were examined by the federal laboratory, RCFL, and their report details that nothing of significance as it relates to suicide was found, meaning, plain language, no searches for suicide. So you search, the FBI searched, there was nothing in the police files or the investigation files about her searching for suicide. But years later, these searches emerge. That's right. To Joseph Pedraza, attorney for the Greenberg family partner, Lam McCarlin.

Joe, I'm stunned. Only when a jury was literally being struck. OK, you know, I've seen it a million times when they look at the jury, they're like, okay, I'll plead or I'll do a settlement because the chickens have come home to roost. It's happening.

Osborne would have to take the stand and everyone would have to explain why they covered up his failure. Why? What happened in that meeting? That's what I want to know. What happened in that meeting with cops, the ADA, and Osborne, the medical examiner? They would have to under oath say what happened. And instead of doing that, they settled. My question is, what now? Can we get this to a criminal investigation by an independent investigator? We will and we will take every measure that is possible to get it there. And failing to get appropriate response by a prosecutorial authority or a law enforcement authority, we're going to pursue civilly. We're not letting this end. We've gotten the ball to the goal line. Now the time is to hold somebody responsible

for this murder, a massacre of this child. To Josh and Sandy Greenberg joining us, who have been through so much, all out of love for Ellen. What next, Sandy? What next? We're going to go ahead. I'm not Sandy. There's something I would like to bring up. I'm sorry, Nancy. The court that turned us down for not having standing. Having standing. Not having standing. The last paragraph of the second page, the examination by the medical examiner,

the district attorney, and the detectives were faulty. That's by a judge panel. Then they went on for 30 pages saying why we should have justice for our daughter. That's what paved the way to the Supreme Court's dancing. I'm sorry. You know what, Josh? You're right. No, no, no, no. Every fact is so important.

You're right. A court said the investigation was faulty. So now what are they going to do? Sandy, what do you think will happen next? What do you want? I want to see the death certificate changed to homicide. We'll see how quickly that occurs. Honestly, I'm not, I don't have a lot of legal ease, so I don't really know where this is going to take us. But I feel that we made progress.

It's most important to us that this is done fair and legal, unlike what happened to our daughter. To Sandy and Josh, please know, I know it feels like it, but you are not alone. Tonight, when we normally remember a fallen American hero, our heroes tonight are Sandy and Josh Greenberg. Parents, out of such deep love for their daughter, have sacrificed it all. The last 14 years of their life, their livelihoods, their money, they just sold their home. And now they are truly David battling Goliath. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.