Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BRIDE STABBED 20 TIMES RULED SUICIDE, PROSECUTOR BREAKS SILENCE

Episode Date: September 26, 2024

Ellen Greenberg, a 27-year-old first-grade teacher in Philadelphia, and her longtime boyfriend, Sam Goldberg, had just sent out "save the date" cards for their upcoming wedding. As a blizzard approached Philadelphia, her school dismissed early. At home with her fiancé, Sam left around 4:45 p.m. to work out at the apartment complex gym. Less than an hour later, when he returned, the door was locked from the inside. For over 20 minutes, Sam pounded on the door, texted, and called Ellen, but received no response. At 6:33 p.m., he broke down the door and found Ellen on the kitchen floor, stabbed 20 times in the chest, neck, and head. While on the phone with 911, Sam was instructed to perform CPR, but he told them a knife was still lodged in her chest. First responders arrived within minutes, and Ellen was pronounced dead at 6:40 p.m. Police launched an investigation. Initially, the medical examiner ruled Ellen's death a homicide, but after meeting with police, the ruling was changed to suicide. Since the medical examiner changed the manner of death, Ellen’s parents, Josh and Sandee Greenberg, have been fighting to have the ruling reversed. Now, Guy D'Andrea, a former assistant district attorney who worked on the case, is speaking out.  Joining Nancy Grace today:  Sandee & Josh Greenberg -  Ellen Greenberg's Parents, Twitter: @justice4ellentw, Facebook: @justice4ellenFB,   Facebook: #Justice For Ellen Guy D’Andrea  - Former Pennsylvania Prosecutor, Attorney at Laffey Bucci D’Andrea Reich & Ryan John Luciew [pronounced Lucy]- (Harrisburg, Pa) Journalist for PennLive.com and The Patriot-News of Harrisburg, Pa. (specializes in true crime and cold case investigations for PennLive.com); Author: “Kill the Story;” Twitter: @JohnLuciew  Benee Knauer - Author of "What Happened To Ellen?: An American Miscarriage of Justice"  Tom Brennan – Private Investigator and Consultant for the Greenbergs Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth) and Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A bride-to-be with one foot down the aisle is stabbed 20 times, her body riddled with bruises. How? How is that ruled suicide? A special guest, a prosecutor from within the district attorney's office, breaking his silence. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

I don't believe it. I'm going on the record. Ellen Greenberg did not commit suicide. And I am basing that on reams and reams of evidence. Joining us, an assistant district attorney who was within the DA's office, the DA's office that did not investigate properly. But first, I want to see what I can learn from the 911 call. Listen. I just walked into my apartment. She answered on the floor with blood everywhere. What is the address? Please come help. Oh no. Oh no. Please, Harry, please.

Where is she bleeding from? I don't know. I can't tell. You have to calm yourself down in order to get you some help. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I don't know. I'm looking at her right now.

I can't see anything. There's nothing broken. She's bleeding. Allie? You don't know where she's bleeding from? Allie? Where's the blood coming from? I think her head. I put her down, but it's everywhere. It's bleeding. Allie. You don't know where she's bleeding from. Allie. It's I think her head. It's everywhere. It's everywhere. She might have fallen. Do you know what happened?

She may have slipped his blood on the on the table. Her face is a little purple. Okay, hold on for rescue for her. Stay on the phone. Well, that's unusual. He says there's blood everywhere, but when authorities arrived, they noticed it was an extremely neat scene and very little blood in light of the fact that the victim who was sitting up, leaning against the kitchen cabinets, her feet slayed out before her had been stabbed at least 20 times, including to the back of the neck, the back of the head and more. And now we are learning that there are bruises to the neck unrelated to the stabs. Let that sink in. Why are there bruises around Ellen's neck? That said more than 911 call. Listen. go work out. I came back up, the door was latched. My fiance's inside. She wasn't answering,

so after about a half hour, I decided to break it down. I see her now just on the floor with blood. She's not responding. Okay, is she breathing? Look at her chest. I need you to calm down. I need you to look at her chest. I don't think she, I really don't think she is. Listen to me. Someone's on the way. Look at her chest. Is she flat on her back? She's on her back. Look at her chest and tell me if it's going up and down, up and down. I don't see her moving. She's not lying down.

She was not lying flat on her back. The 911 caller says she's on her back. No. Isn't it true? John Lucy, with me, an all-star panel, including Ellen's parents, Josh and Sandy. But with us, Guy D'Andrea, a prosecutor in the office who reviewed the case. Benet Naur, who is creating a book, What Happened to Ellen? Tom Brennan, consultant for the Greenberg family, Dr. Kendall Crown's renowned medical examiner.

To John Lucy, journalist pinned live and the Patriot News of Harrisburg, author of Kill the Story. John Lucy, thank you for being with us. She was not lying flat on her back. And as a matter of fact, isn't it true, John Lucy, that blood had dried going from the nose area across the face toward the ear. There was horizontal dried blood, which means she was not sitting up when this happened. And when first responders got there, blood was already coagulated on the floor and her body was cold to the touch and her fingers were turning blue. Isn't that true? That is correct. Yeah, she was at the crime scene the way it was photographed. She is slumped up against the kitchen cabinet with a knife protruding, a 10-inch knife protruding from her chest. And on the face, you have the wrong way blood based on the position she was found in,

which means the conclusion is her body was moved. That at some point she was in that flat on her back position, but somehow moved to be slumped up against the cabinet. I like what you just said, Lucy. You said the wrong way blood. I've never heard it put like that, like a wrong way driver, the wrong way blood that captures it. The bride to be Ellen Greenberg in life is a beauty. Again, joining us an all-star panel, but I think we could all do with another listen to the 911 call. No matter how many times you listen to it, you can always learn something off. Okay. You go down by her side. Oh, my God.

Allie, please. Listen, listen. You can't freak out, sir. Okay, I'm trying not to. I'm trying not to. Her shirt won't come off. It's a zipper. Oh, my God.

She stabbed herself. Where? She fell on a knife. Oh, no. Her knife's sticking out. Her what? There's a knife sticking out of her heart. Oh, she stabbed herself? I guess so. I don't know where she fell on it. I came in and I found, I didn't even say the words,

my husband stabbed, my first thought would not be he stabbed himself. My first thought would not be he stabbed himself. My first thought would not be he fell on the knife. That just would not be my first thought. But I'm projecting, and you're not allowed to do that in a court of law. Sandy and Josh Greenberg joining us. These are Ellen's parents. And you can find them on Facebook at Justice for Ellen FB. And at this point, they are broken.

And they are writing their own checks out of their life savings to continue investigating their daughter's homicide. You can find them at GoFundMe, Justice for Ellen. Sandy and Josh, thank you for being with us. This case is still not resolved. Still not resolved. I want to ask you, and I don't even know how you can sit there calmly. I admire you, and I'm learning from you every day, every time I'm around you. And I treasure the time that we were together in the flesh. I want to know, before I get into all of these facts, how do you keep going? And remember, a lot of crime victims are going to hear what you have to say right now. Tonight, tell us, how, Sandy, do you keep going?

Well, right now it's 13 and a half years and we've been up against tons of opposition, but I've never felt so empowered that I really do feel we will have justice for Ellen. And hopefully the things that we've been fighting for will help other crime victims. Joining us, an all-star panel, and I want to remind everyone in our jurisprudence, no one is guilty until they have gone before a jury of their peers and brought on their own evidence, if they so wish, and tested the state's evidence, and there is a guilty verdict. No one, no matter what you may think, is guilty in our country unless proven so in a court of law. No one in this case has been named a person of interest. No one has been named a suspect. That said, to Guy D'Andrea joining us, former prosecutor

in the office who reviewed the Ellen Greenberg case, now a high-profile lawyer at Laffey, Booch, D'Andrea, Reich, and Ryan. Guy D'Andrea, thank you for being with us. Now, I'm just looking and listening to the 911 call, and we've got reams of it. My first reaction, if I were to find, let's just say Jackie sitting right here with me in the studio. If I found her stabbed dead, my first reaction would be, oh my star, she stabbed herself dead. I wouldn't even think that. I called 911 and I would assume she had been murdered for Pete's sake. But I want to move you from that moment up to the time when you were asked specifically to review the Ellen Greenberg case? After reviewing the file, and I want you to think very carefully before you answer.

After reviewing the file in full, do you believe Ellen killed herself? I've had now, I started looking into this file, Nancy Grace, back in 2015. And of course, I left the office two years later, but I have stayed actively involved because I want so desperately for the truth and for the Greenbergs to get justice. And the justice that I look for is truth, right? And so I stayed very actively involved in terms of keeping up with the Greenbergs, with Tom Brennan. And so from 2015 until now, 2024, with everything that has come out, I can definitively say as a former homicide prosecutor that this was not a suicide. The sheer number of stab wounds, 20 stab wounds, including to the back of the head, the back of the neck. You know, women, well, anybody can't even zip up a back zipper by themselves many times. So look, look at this.

No way was this suicide. And we also have the unresolved bruising to the neck that is unrelated to a stab wound. Somebody or somehow she got bruising to her neck guy, D'Andrea, that is not connected to, oh my stars, these bruises. She's covered, covered in bruises, guy. I was told when I reviewed this file, these are bruising, which is so important to understand in all stages of healing, meaning that these bruising happened at different periods of time. These are clear signs of abuse or assault that were inflicted upon her. And the best answer I got when asked about this is, and I'm not, I can't even make this up, Nancy Grace.

She did Pilates. And I said, hang on. Put him up. Put him up. That, you got a woman dead, stabbed 20 times in the back of the neck, the back of the head, her body covered in bruises. She was making a fruit salad in the middle of making lunch. She had come home early that day because of a blizzard outside. She called all of her children's parents, first grade teacher, to make sure they all got home okay.

Then she started making a fruit salad. She still, this is very probative to me, and I got to think it through, guy. I got to think it through what it means. In one hand, she still had a dishrag from making the fruit salad. She, in the middle, holding the dishrag, making the salad. She stabbed herself. No, she was holding that when somebody else stabbed her and got, I mean, there's just so much. I can't even get it all out. One of the stabs to the back of the neck was so severe it actually went through the skin and sliced the dura, D-U-R-A, of her spinal cord. And at best, she would have felt nothing, but most likely would have become incapacitated. That was not the last stab. The last stab had to be in the chest because with her other hand, her right hand, it was still on the knife, kitchen towel and left hand knife in the other hand. So

does somebody actually want me to believe this girl in the middle of a fruit salad stabbed herself 20 times, even after she's incapacitated, and then plunges a knife in her own chest, guy? Is that what they want me to believe? It's not believable. It defies all logic. And the last stab wound, we don't know the order, like you said, the last stab wound was the one to the chest. And now that we know her spinal column was pierced, to your point, not only would she be incapacitated, she would have been rendered immediately incapacitated by that stab wound. And who in the midst of stabbing themselves also takes the knife and smacks themselves on the back of the head because she has a huge blunt force trauma to the back of her head.

A Philly teacher found stabbed to death in her own apartment. Her death ruled a suicide despite stabs in the back of her head. Joining me in All- our panel to make sense of what we know right now, but this is not over. Ellen Greenberg did not commit suicide. I would stake anything on it. And this gibberish, this blathering about searching painless ways to commit suicide, I can guarantee you, stabbing yourself 20 times is not a painless way to commit suicide. The FBI did a very extensive search of her computers, her laptops, her cell phone, the works, and found no evidence at all of any suicidal searches. As a matter of fact, to Benet Naur joining us, co-author of What Happened to Ellen? Benet. Isn't it true that what was found on her

computer were searches of photos, images, and information related to planning a wedding? That's right, Nancy. And I want to just add, so not only was Ellen preparing food and seeing to her students. She had filled up her car with gas. This was not a person who was ending her life. This was a person who was living her life. Yes, she had searched for things about her wedding. And her therapist said there was no suicidal ideation. Ellen was not suicidal. There was no evidence whatsoever from anywhere that Ellen was suicidal. None. And the fact that psychiatrist Dr. Ellen Berman

is very clear in her written records. No suicidal thoughts, manifestations, no verbal discussion of suicide, nothing. At most, she was having anxiety as it relates to the wedding. Now, let me be clear about something. To Josh Greenberg, this is Ellen's dad. She was a daddy's girl. Josh, isn't it true that she, Ellen, and Sam had moved in together into this luxury Venice loft apartments and condos, and she was very, very happy moving forward, ostensibly moving forward with the wedding. But isn't it true, Josh, that prior to her death, she suddenly called home and wanted to move home to Harrisburg. Isn't that true?

Yes. Emphatically, yes. And unexplainable to me. And Josh, at the time, you gave her some very good advice. You said, listen, if you're anxious about school or you want to transfer schools, finish out the end of the year. Just finish. Don't leave midterm because that would have been impossible

for her to move back home to Harrisburg, and there she is living where they were at Venice Loft at a very highly high, no crime rate, zero crime rate. I just want to throw that in. So you said wait it out. And then, of course, yeah, then come home if you want to. But don't do it now. Finish the year out. You told her that because you didn't want her, I assume, to get a reputation of leaving in the middle of the school year.

I had two things in my mind. Help my daughter, and I couldn't because I didn't know what was psychologically going on in her mind. And I wanted her not to become not hireable, let's call it, for lack of a better term. You know, Sandy and Josh, I had a similar thing happen. So maybe I'm projecting, and correct me if I'm wrong. I don't mind being wrong.

My first job at a law school, I had, let me just say, to put it euphemistically, a very, very recalcitrant judge that I clerked for. And there were many times that I wanted to quit. And my dad said, don't. You finish that clerkship and then go to the next thing. And I did. I did what he told me to do. I get it. At any time, and she spoke to you guys every day and called her mom multiple times during the day. At any time did she ever state to you, I want to kill myself? You know, sometimes people say that in jest. But did she ever say anything like that?

That never came up. No? No, that never came up. Not even close to it. Almost as far as she wanted to go. Who is Ellen Greenberg? Listen. Ellen Greenberg is a first grade teacher in Philadelphia. At 27 years old, she and longtime boyfriend Sam Goldberg have just sent out save the date cards for their upcoming wedding.

A blizzard is bearing down on Philadelphia and school has dismissed everyone early. And on her way home, Ellen stops to fill up her gas tank. Once she's home with her fiancé, Sam Goldberg leaves around 4.45 p.m. to work out in the apartment complex gym. When Sam arrives back less than an hour later, the door is locked from the inside. Okay, the door locked from the inside. Joining me right now, Tom Brennan, private eye, consultant with the Greenberg family. He's been on the case from the get-go, extremely loyal. He's standing by the case and the Greenbergs. Tom Brennan, explain to me about what kind of lock that was.

It's my understanding, it's one like you see a lot of times in a hotel. It's got a swing over, and you swing it over, and you can open the door from the outside about that much, but then it stops it. Yes, you can. It's called a swinging bar lock and you'll find them in any type of hotel or motel but in order to disengage or unlock that lock one or the other piece has to become dismounted okay and one of the first things I looked at was the door okay this is a particle board door and you can see the damage to it and down below on the floor in the other photographs, there should have been some particle, you know, wood particles. And there's one screw missing. That other screw should have been on the floor.

Well, none of those things came into view. They weren't there that that indicated to me that you know if you would put your shoulder to that door one or the other piece would have had to come off would have had been dismounted from either the door jamb or the door the Pennsylvania State Police sent me to to lock school and, and I did the surreptitious entries for the department, and I know a lot about locks. And that, that, okay, is not, that's what we refer to as staging, okay? It's made to look like, OK, it was damaged. What happened to beloved Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg?

The Pennsylvania Supreme Court agrees to review the case amidst a controversial ruling. Forensic pathologist Dr. Wayne K. Ross is commissioned by the Greenbergs to review the case. Dr. Ross says there's evidence of strangulation. Ross says there's a mark over the front of the neck and in the strap muscles over the right side of the neck claiming these patterns are compatible with a manual strangulation. Ross also points out the number of bruises over different parts of Greenberg's body are consistent with repeated beatings. He writes, it is my opinion that the investigating authorities should pursue this case as a homicide. It is further my opinion, to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, that the manner of death is a homicide. The scene findings were indicative of a homicide. Again, joining me, an esteemed medical examiner,

Dr. Kendall Crowns, the chief medical examiner of Tarrant County. That's a Fort Worth. Never like a business there. That morgue lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU, Dr. Kendall Crowns. Thank you for being with us, Dr. Crowns. The medical examiner, which is another can of worms I want to talk to you about, initially, wait for it, ruled this case a homicide. Initially, Dr. Osborne. Then, after a secret meeting, I can't even find out who was at the meeting between police representatives and representatives from your office, D'Andrea, your old office, from the DA's office and police go to the changed to suicide after he ruled it homicide.

I'm going to talk to you later about being pressured to change a COD, cause of death ruling. But first and more important, the substance of this case. I want you to talk to me, if you don't mind, about the strap muscles over the right side of Ellen Greenberg's neck and signs of strangulation. What does that mean? Signs of strangulation are often bruises about the neck in the area, especially when it's a manual strangulation. So someone grabs you by the neck and they're strangling you or with both hands. Usually your fingernails will dig into the skin. They will leave bruises, semi-lunar type shapes, which is the nails digging in, but you'll get bruises on the neck. And then the strap muscles in the neck are the muscles of the anterior neck

or the front of your neck that are going along these areas of your neck and they are often in manual strangulations. You will see hemorrhages in those as well. So when you see bruises on the neck with hemorrhages in the strap muscles, it makes you very suspicious for a manual strangulation. Other things you'll look for is petechiae or little tiny dot hemorrhages in the eyes as well. Don't always necessarily see those, but again, those are signs of strangulation. Hold on.

I didn't want to interrupt you. I was trying to drink in every word, but I want to be clear. This forensic pathologist, Dr. Wayne K. Ross, is hired. You know how much money the Greenbergs have spent trying to investigate this and clear their daughter's name. This forensic pathologist says there is evidence of strangulation. There is a mark on the front of the neck and in the strap muscles over the right side of the neck. And I would like to emphasize the word and. It's not just a mark on the front of the neck. That is combined with patterns

compatible with manual strangulation by hand, not ligature, on the strap muscles. Could you show me the strap muscles again, Dr. Kendall Crowns? Certainly. The strap muscles are the muscles that are on the front of your neck and they all sit here and here. So you'll see anytime in a manual strangulation, the strap muscles will show injury from the hand digging into those muscles. You stated, Dr. Kendall Crowns, that this could be indicative of strangulation. My question to you is, how else could they get there? If it's not strangulation, who's going to get bruising right here? How does that happen? Pilates? Well, not Pilates, unless it's aggressive Pilates. I don't know. But you could get a

punch to the neck that could leave. Have you ever even done Pilates? I have not. Nor have I done goat yoga. Then you don't. What aggressive Pilates are you even talking about? I've done Pilates. It was painful, but nothing touched my neck. I can guarantee you that. Understood. But so I don't think it's Pilates. I do think it could be strangulation. It could be a punch to the neck, especially with all these stab wounds that you have involved. It could be a form of control as well. You're the last person I want to argue with because I know I'm in over my head, but how could a punch to the neck end up in bruising on the strap muscles. That would be two marks. It didn't say strap muscle. It said muscle. So how could one punch result in multiple bruising? Well, your assumption of one punch was going to bruise one side, but you know, you could punch multiple times. It is a stabbing. It's a melee type situation. So

a lot could be going on. Now, strangulation makes more sense, but you did ask, could something else cause it? Yes. Blunt force injuries, multiple strikes to the neck could cause that as well. Okay. Dr. Kendall Crowns, if she received, let's just pretend that theory is true for a moment, if she received punches to the neck, would those be the bruises that you would expect to see? Not likely. The bruising that I've seen in the pictures looks more consistent with a manual strangulation than anything else. And very quickly, let me follow up with Tom Brennan. In the original medical examiner's report, did he, Osborne, notice the bruises to the neck? There's no indication in the autopsy report that states that.

So that was completely ignored and would have indicated strangulation. No, the only time the neck and the indication that there were some, it looked like a nail mark on the right side of the neck. A nail mark? Ellen Greenberg had a nail mark, fingernail mark on her neck. Okay, Brennan, this is a yes, no lightning round. Are you sure that you and the pathologist saw a nail mark, N-A-I-L mark? Yes. We took a photograph of it. Okay. Dr. Kendall Crowns, I knew there was bruising to the neck, did not know there was

a fingernail mark. Does that change your assumption about aggressive Pilates or a punch to the neck? So yeah, some nail marks again would be from digging the hand in. They leave these kind of semi-lunar marks. That would be a manual strangulation. Straight back to Guy D'Andrea, former prosecutor in the office who personally reviewed, combed through with a fine-tooth comb, the Ellen Greenberg file, now lawyer, Leife, Bucci, D'Andrea, Reich, and Ryan. Guy, I feel sick. This is the same feeling I would have in court, talking to the medical examiner and hearing the evidence and

then look over at the defendant and they would be claiming some crazy thing. Way in. I mean, don't you just want to jump out of your skin hearing all this? Absolutely, Nancy. And in reviewing the medical examiner's report, I had so many issues once I dug in and investigated and now learning everything I'm learning, you know, up to this point, it's baffling to me. And one of the things, you know, that I've always struggled with, and I know you know this fact, but in the medical examiner's report, there's talk of a neuropathologist, Dr. Rourke, reviewing, doing the neuropathological examination. That never happened. I discovered that never happened. So why is it in

the medical examiner's report as a fact? Okay. I'm going to try to make this quick. I'm going to call in Benay Nauer. With me, Benay Nauer, who together we're writing what happened to Ellen. Benay, we have gone over and over and over. Dr. Rourke Adams, who Osborne, the medical examiner says, yeah, I brought her in on this because she's a neuro brain neck pathologist. And I wanted her to look at the dura, that part of Ellen's spine that was nicked. Nothing. And then isn't it true, Benane Hauer, that Dr. Rourke Adams doesn't remember this ever happening. And she didn't put in her notes. She didn't put her day timer and her practice was to always bill. I mean, the woman's got to make a living. She didn't submit a bill. There's no record this ever happened. And Rourke Adams says, I have no recollection of that

ever happening. Isn't that true, Benane Hour? That is absolutely true. Tragically and infuriatingly, this is just one of the many things in this case that makes no sense, that defies logic, that defies authenticity, that defies how everything is handled in these cases. I want to just say something about the nail mark. Joseph Scott Morgan, in his investigation for you, talked about the nail mark within the bruising, and what he said, this is a quote, what we see in a classic strangulation are these classic nail marks, like a rake moving through the skin.

This indicates a struggle. Guy D'Andrea, when you saw and you believed in your heart of hearts that this is not a suicide, did you tell anybody in the DA's office? I did. And my superiors who were at least my immediate superior was it was very supportive of me doing the investigation. And she asked, What do I want to do? And at the time, I didn't know that I was going to leave to join private practice. But we were just going to wait for the independent neuropathological autopsy that was going to be performed on that piece of the spinal column. And then I was under the impression that, I mean, I even think if I had stayed, sadly,

that this would have been changed back in 2017. That is what was being indicated to me, not just by my office, but also by the medical examiner's office, meaning at a minimum, it's going to be undetermined, but potentially, depending on what the neuropath says, homicide. And that was seven years ago. To John Lucy joining us from PennLive and the Patriot News of Harrisburg, who's been on the case from the very beginning. Response? How can this stand? How can we stand for this? Well, unfortunately, in Pennsylvania, medical examiners and coroners have a wide discretion in determining the manner of

death. And that's the crux of the court case that is now before the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania to change that. That's the odyssey that the Greenbergs have been on, spending at last count $700,000 of their own money to get to this doorstep of justice. And then there is the secret meeting. And I just want to throw out there, and anybody on the panel that knows about this, jump in, please. We need everybody in the brain chest jumping in. Then there is the secret meeting with the medical examiner. He determined this to be a homicide, obviously.

Then there's a secret meeting with police and DAs. And suddenly, the ruling is changed. To Tom Brennan, PI consultant for the Greenberg family, what happened? And is it true a female district attorney that was in that meeting has been given immunity? You do that when you're looking at a criminal charge. Yes, she's been given high, what they call high immunity because we were going to name her in the suit. So she's been given high immunity and we couldn't name her as one of the defendants in the lawsuit.

I'm not asking you her name, but do you know her name? Yes. Guy D'Andrea, help me. I don't understand it. And I don't understand why this is not being changed. It's so obvious. You told the district attorney's office this is wrong and nobody did anything and still haven't done anything. Why? Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. And, you know, ultimately, though, it's the medical examiners who have to change it. Sadly, the DA's office would have no authority to do that. And unless the medical examiner's office changes it, I mean, you know, this is the prosecutor. How do you prosecute a homicide when it's ruled a suicide? Right. And I asked if you want me to tell you

about that meeting, about why it was changed from homicide to suicide And I asked, if you want me to tell you about that meeting, about why it was changed from homicide to suicide, I asked them. Yes, tell me. Yeah. They told me that the assigned detective went to them and said, this would be an impossibility to be a suicide, I mean, excuse me, a homicide,

because the door was an old fashioned deadbolt that locked into the frame. Like if I grew up in a house like that, you know, and if you can't breach that door, and if you do breach it, you're taking the whole door off the hinges. And so that's what he convinced the medical examiner. Now, when I debunked that, they had a million other excuses as to why it wasn't a homicide, but that was the answer, the singular answer that was disprovable by looking at a single photograph, right? And so right from the jump, I knew there was something off here. How did you debunk the theory about the door?

Yeah. So I looked at the photographs and I said, wait a second, why is this, this is a lot, this is not a deadbolt by any stretch of anyone's imagination. How is it that if you breach this door, one, either one of those pieces isn't on the ground. But putting that aside, I said to the medical examiner, not to be silly, but Google it. You can Google this right now on YouTube and find out that you can use a hanger, a stick of gum, slam the door too hard, use a ruler, do all sorts of things to either lock or unlock this door from the outside. So don't tell me that no one could have gotten in or gotten out if this thing is latched. So that's the reason that this was moved or changed from a

homicide to a suicide nonsense. Change it back. Yeah. I wrote a book, Don't Be a Victim. And part of it is about traveling and how to keep yourself safe in a hotel room. We actually did the experiment on a door like that. It's not impenetrable. Okay. By far. Yeah. You're, I mean, if I can do it, anybody can do it. Guy D'Andrea, how do you feel speaking out against the medical examiner's ruling? Because you're up against a lot of opposition. I mean, this goes all the way up to Shapiro, because he is the one that said H-E-L-L-N-O. I'm not touching it with a 10-foot pole.

It was his duty to touch it. Yeah, Nancy, I really, I've always prided myself, and I mean this, not to be sappy, but on justice and what it means to me is the truth. And if the truth, which it's not, but if the truth is suicide, then it's suicide, but do it the right way. But the truth is what justice is. And when people are looking, how can anyone with a straight face now in 2024, quite frankly, it should have been a long time ago, but in 2024 with all of this evidence, actual evidence, how can anyone comfortably sleep knowing that they've said this is a suicide? It's inexplainable.

It's inexcusable. It's inexcusable. The evidence is clear, and I do not understand why it's taking the Greenbergs to fight tooth and nail the fortitude they have to keep this fight going just for justice, the truth to be told. If you know or think you know what happened in this case, if you lived in the building, if you observed anything, please call 1-800-472-8477. Repeat. 1-800-472-8477. I'm not even going to bother to give you the AG's number. 800-472-8477.

Hey, Shapiro, you don't like it? Come at me. Auntie Grace signing off. Good night, friend. come at me Auntie Grace signing off goodnight friend