Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Brutally strangled, buried on lonely beach: Was Shannan Gilbert murdered by monster Long Island Serial Killer?

Episode Date: March 24, 2020

Shannan Gilbert, 24, goes missing after a frantic 23-minute 911 call in 2010. In a search of the area where she is last seen, police find the bodies of nine other bodies along a stretch of highway near Gilgo Beach. A year later, Gilbert's body is found. Are the deaths connected?Joining Nancy Grace today: John Ray - Attorney for family of victim Shannon Gilbert   Shera LaPoint - Genetic Genealogist, "The Gene Hunter"  James Shelnutt - 27 years Atlanta Metro Major Case detective, SWAT Officer (RET), Attorney     Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills Dr. Michelle Dupre - South Carolina Medical Examiner & Author of “Homicide Investigation Field Guide”  Ellen Killoran - Investigative Reporter, CrimeOnline   Dave Mack - Investigative Reporter, CrimeOnline   Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Nancy Grace is coming to Fox Nation. I want justice. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Available now only on Fox Nation. Shannon Gilbert dead, but is her murder part of a much more complex series of murders of, of course, young women? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What happened to a 24-year-old young girl? You know, my daughter is about to turn 13. She's only 11 years older than that.

First of all, I want you to take a listen to our friend Michelle Sigona at Crime Watch Daily. Not a day goes by that Mary Gilbert doesn't long for an answer to the death of her 23-year-old daughter, Shannon. If you pick up the phone and call investigators or the detective that's been assigned to you, do you get calls back? No, they won't talk to me. Shannon had traveled from New Jersey to Oak Beach, Long Island, near Gilgo Beach, for a date. Later that night, she was seen running through the neighborhood in a blind panic. Gilbert family attorney John Ray has logged over 700 hours on the case, tracing her steps that night. She runs out of his home. She calls 911. She runs through the neighborhood knocking on doors

and whenever someone comes to the door who attempts to call the police but not take her in, she runs. And that's the last anyone's heard of her. Talk to me about what happened. Talk to me about a phone call your daughter made. 911 call for help lasting 23 minutes. 23 minutes. 23 minutes. Screaming. Can you imagine the pain that Shannon's mother endures? Her daughter on the phone with a cell phone, 23 minutes running from door to door,

screaming in fear, screaming that she's afraid she's going to die. And she did. Just 24 years old. Shannon Gilbert loses her life. Joining me in All-Star Panel to break it down and put it back together, Dr. Michelle Dupree, renowned medical examiner, joining me out of South Carolina, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide,

psychoanalyst to the stars, Dr. Bethany Marshall, joining me from Beverly Hills. You can find her at drbethanymarshall.com. James Sheldon, 27 years, Metro major case and SWAT, now lawyer. Shira LaPointe, genetic genealogist, the so-called gene hunter. Also with me, special guest, the attorney for the family of the victim, Shannon Gilbert. John Ray is with us. But first, straight out to our CrimeOnline.com investigative reporters, Dave Mack, investigative reporter, and Ellen Killoran. You know, when you look at it like a puzzle, EK, Ellen Kaloran,

Shannon Gilbert fits in to a much bigger picture. But I want to start with her. Where was her body found? Nancy, Shannon Gilbert's body was found not long, not far from where she disappeared, but it was a year and a half before she was found dead she had disappeared in may of 2010 in oak beach and was never seen again do we know do we know the cod cause of death ek the official causes of death is inconclusive authorities had been saying for years that they believe what probably happened was she ran into

the marsh where she was found became disoriented became exhausted and drowned in the sand and water in the marsh okay i've got a really hard time believing that because you know shell nut help me out here ek i'm not doubting your expert crack reporting but shellut you got a woman 24 years old on the phone screaming I'm gonna die help me help me help me help me beating on people's doors if they don't take her in she runs and you want to tell me she went

out into the marsh which is not over her head and then just says to hang with it and sits down and dies that is not what happened, Shelnut. No, that's not what happened. It doesn't make any sense. This case should have been treated as a homicide from the very beginning,

and that should have been the default position, but unfortunately it was not. You know, I just am thinking how in the hay they could even say that, that her cause of death, she just sat down in the marsh and died. Marsh is a mixture of sand, earth, foliage, and water. And I find it very difficult to believe, Dr. Michelle Dupree, renowned medical examiner, joining me out of South Carolina and author, Dr. Dupree, I'm not buying that for one minute. Why are they even trying to tell me that? That she died because she got exhausted and sat down in the marsh and drowned? I don't believe that for one minute. They could look at her lungs, Dr. Dupree, and determine if she drowned or not.

Nancy, you've got excellent points. Normally, you certainly wouldn't think that. And I don't think that she just sat down and died. No. She may have sat down. She may have passed out. She may have inhaled marsh, muddy, gooey water. But, yes, you're absolutely right. Why can we not look at the autopsy and tell?

That's why we do an autopsy. Wait a minute. Hold on. I've got a thought here, and i don't want to lose it even a year later her body as ellen coloren just told us was found not far from what she was last spotted bamming on doors begging for help 23 minute 911 call so obviously she died that night but are you telling me that one year later, Dr. Dupree, they cannot look at her lungs and determine did she drown or not? No, that's exactly what I'm saying.

You can. That's how we do it. Yes, we should be able to do an autopsy, and we should be able to tell. It's going to depend, of of course on the condition of the body it always does but chances are we can take microscopic sections of lung tissue and we should be able to tell okay whoa when you say we can take microscopic sections of brain tissue how do you do that is it do you cut it with a knife i'm talking about the lungs you open the body up in a t-bone right isn't it a t

you open the cut okay you get the lungs out when you say you take a piece of tissue what do you do it with you pluck it off with tweezers or do you slice it off how do you do that depends on the organ it is with the the lungs we'll take usually a scapula and we'll take sections small sections of those lungs so you slice it off like a knife, with a knife? Yes, yes. Then you put that under the microscope. You don't just look at the lungs like you're looking at a basketball. How big are the lungs, Dr. Dupree?

Well, the lungs are about the size of your forearm. Okay. So you don't just look at them with a naked eye. You slice off a piece, as you said, with a scalpel, and you put that under a microscope, correct? Well, we fix it in formalin, which is a preservative, and then we put it into a wax processing machine and we cut slices of that and attach that to a microscopic slide and look at under the microscope. So long story short, yes, you do put it under a microscope. Now, wait a minute. Remember, I'm just a lawyer. You're the doctor. Now, hold on. You look under the microscope, and if you're looking to see

if she drowned, what would you expect to find? Well, if she drowned, we may or may not be able to see evidence of that, but we should be able to see debris like the marsh, muddy water, something like that in the lungs. We can tell if the lungs are congested, meaning they have fluid in them. They should have air and not fluid. So you can tell the difference because you can tell, let's just say somebody dies at sea, but when they are autopsied, you find out it's fresh water in their lungs. So they didn't die at sea. They died somewhere else like a bathtub and were put at sea. My point is, can you analyze the debris within the lungs and tell me, was it marsh, muddy marsh water? Was it something else?

And was it to the extent that she died drowning as opposed to something else? Yes. Again, Nancy, it depends on the totality of circumstances and the condition of that body. But those are exactly the kinds of questions that autopsies are designed to answer. We are talking about the death of Shannon Gilbert, just 24 years old, and her murder is just the tip of the iceberg. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Everyone, you are listening to Crime Stories.

I'm Nancy Grace, and I want to thank you for being with us. I want you to take a listen to our friends at PIX11. This is Mary Murphy. Let's assume we took Robert Moses Corsley over the Ocean Parkway. He's traveling westbound. We followed retired Chief Dominic Verone back to Gilgo. So he'd pull over, pop the SUV, pull out the body, and just throw it as far as he could, headfirst into the bramble. Verone was here in December 2010 as commander of Suffolk County detectives when the bodies of four slain sex workers

were discovered at Gilgo Beach. Some of the earlier murders, they were picked up in New York City. In fact, the NYPD had investigated the disappearance of the first victim, Melissa Barthelemy. She vanished from the Bronx in 2009. Her unknown killer even used Barthelemy's cell phone near Penn Station to taunt her family, who spoke in 2011.

Is this Melissa's little sister? That's how he started out the conversation. Is this Melissa's little sister? And she answered, yeah. It was a very sadistic, hurtful call. Wow. I'm going to go straight back out to Ellen Kaloran, investigative reporter with CrimeOnline.com. E.K., so Shannon Gilbert, the 24-year-old young lady we're talking about today, is one of how many dead bodies along Gilgo Beach?

Eleven, including Shannon. Eleven, including Shannon. Okay, back to you, James Shelnut, 27 years, Metro Major case, now lawyer. You do agree with me. Unlike many defense attorneys, it's got to be the same killer. They're all buried along the same stretch of beach, Gilgo Beach. And I find it very difficult to believe that one killer places a body there and just by straight coincidence, or as my son John Dave says, on coincidence, somebody else comes and finds the same exact remote area to hide their dead bodies. Of course, it's the same killer, Shellnut. Of course it is. There's no doubt it's the same killer. There were a lot of similarities, too.

All of these bodies were on the same side of the road. Some of these bodies were within 100, 200 yards of each other. Most of the bodies were within sight. So if you were standing along the side of the road, you could look down the road and see the portions of the roadway or side of the roadway that these bodies were buried. Several of the bodies were buried in a burlap sack. Other similarities involved. There is no doubt that it was a serial killer or serial killers that placed the bodies there. I think it's one killer, and you know why?

What is it, Dr. Bethany Marshall, nobody can keep their yaps up? Here's an example. Remember all the conspiracy theories about the setup of Orenthal, James Simpson, O.J. Simpson, that it was all a setup to get him? Why? Why do we want to get O.J. Simpson other than he's a double killer? But there's no way that all those police officers could have framed O.J. Simpson and then kept quiet about it for all these years. Because how many million dollar book deals would they have if they talked? So I think there's one killer and it's definitely a man. And he killed all these women, Dr. Bethany. I think so. Because when you look at the mindset

of the serial killer, what you see in terms of victim selection is availability, that these are young women out and about in society. You see a vulnerability that they are by themselves. Shannon Gilbert was so vulnerable, knocking on people's doors. Nobody would take her in on the phone for 23 minutes. Incredibly vulnerable. And then desirability. Serial killers have a victim type. So if you start to speak to there being just one perpetrator, look at all these women. They're young,

they're beautiful, they're vulnerable, they're available, some of them sex workers. So they are like isolated from society and they're a ripe target. What about it, EK? Ellen Kalorin joining me from CrimeOnline.com. EK, what do we know about the physicality of the various victims, the 11 women? Are they all white? We know that they're all women, different races. Not all of the victims have been identified. That's one thing to keep in mind. There is one victim who is a John Doe. All of the others are women and one small child who police believe was killed with her mother. Oh, Lord. That's right. That's right, Ellen. Complete deviation from the typical M.O.

modus operandi method of operation. You know what's interesting is that when you look at serial killers, for instance, I looked at all the victims of serial killer Ted Bundy, and the startling similarity of their physicality, the way they looked, is amazing. It's shocking how closely they resembled each other. So I'm guessing that a lot of these women will look physically similar to each other. And also, I don't know why, but we learned that, Dr. Bethany Marshall, very often serial killers do not cross racial boundaries. They will murder within their own race, which is very interesting to me.

I don't know what it means, but I know it to be true. Well, even though they put tremendous energy into their crimes, I think they're also kind of lazy, scared, and rejection prone. And because of that, they troll for victims in their own group where there's availability and access. There's profound research about serial killers that suggests that every single one was rejected by their mother. Now, we know that there are brain differences between serial killers. Bethany, Bethany, Bethany.

It's true, Nancy. Why are you dragging Mommy into this? I know. I shouldn't, but I'm a psychoanalyst. I really wish you wouldn't because, you know, I have the twins, and now I have to think about every move I make. Is it going to turn them into some crazy, deranged whatever? Thanks, Bethany.

That's something I can think about tonight. But is there a break in the case, guys? I want you to take a listen to Mary Murphy joining us from PIX11. The Suffolk Police Commissioner said the killer left a black belt at one of the multiple scenes where bodies were dumped with the initials H.M. or W.H. on it. We believe that the belt was handled by the suspect. A law enforcement source who worked on the Gilgo Beach case told me that the initials embossed on the inside of the black belt are about a half inch high. And he said the handiwork looks like something you might have found done at a shopping mall in the 80s or 90s. The initials on the belt have caused a frenzy of speculation, with some web sleuths tying the initials to a friend of disgraced Chief James Burke. Burke went to prison in 2016 for beating up a drug-addicted suspect who stole a stash of porn and sex toys from the chief's official police car.

Burke was released last year. Wow, is the plot thickening. Why, I wonder, do they wait so long, cops, to tell us that a belt with the letters H, M, or W, H, depending on if you were looking at it upside down, H, M, or W, H, was found. To Cheryl LaPointe joining me, the gene hunter, G-E-N-E, genetic genealogist. After all this time, what's the likelihood of getting DNA off that belt? Nancy, I believe they still have a very high likelihood of being able to get DNA off of that belt. It's not the same as, say, if you were trying to get DNA off of a body in a rape case.

The DNA, if the belt was touched by the murderer, the DNA very possibly still would be in there, on there. But how, after all this time, is it because of the oil in the fingertip when you touch it, it really has to be washed with what, a soapy type substance to get that oil, which is really why you have a fingerprint? Are you saying that could still be on there? Yes, ma'am. It still can be on there. It's trace DNA.

And when you touch an object, your DNA stays on that object. Of course, it would depend on the elements, where the belt was. I can't help but feel that because of the advancement in DNA technology, maybe they were able to process it with these new methods and find more information. Oftentimes you have multiple DNA. You know, it may have been the victim's DNA and the murderer's DNA, and it may have been difficult to separate in the past. But with new technologies, it's become easier to do those things. And it's very possible that that's why all of a sudden the belt has become important. Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. We have all worked so hard to bring to you Don't Be a Victim, Fighting Back Against America's Crime Wave, a brand new book. After interviewing literally hundreds of crime victims and police, we put our knowledge into Don't Be a Victim. You can pre-order now. Go to CrimeOnline.com, pre-order now, and know that portions of our proceeds goes to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Eleven people have lost their lives. All women and one child. All buried along a lonely stretch of Gilgo Beach. But still, the perp is unapprehended. Even calling one of the victim's families with the victim's cell phone on one occasion. Her little sister picked it up, and it was traced back to the Penn Station area where Madison Square Gardens is. That in itself reveals a twisted, twisted mindset to not only murder one of 11 people, but then call the victim's family from the victim's cell phone.

Again, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Is there a break in the case? A belt with the initials WH or HM, which could be either if you look at the belt upside down. With me, an all-star panel. But first, I want to go to a very special guest joining us it's john ray

and he is the lawyer for the family of then 24 year old shannon gilbert john ray you've put in literally hundreds of hours on this case who do you think murdered these women? Well, there's a number of possibilities, of course, but it's fairly clear that there's more than one person. Shannon is running away. Well, yeah, when Shannon's running away, she's saying on the, we know she said on the 911 calls, they're trying to kill me in the plural we also know by the way that there are no no lungs found because only her bones were found uh and when you i think you had said before that she died that night there's no evidence that she died that night uh she could have lived for a long time nobody really knows and that she she died in

the marsh is absurd because uh or or in the way they say the police say she died it's because i walked that marsh at uh a year later uh in the at the same time that shannon would have walked it the water is only inches deep uh where she's found she's found laying down face up with her head on a bush. So none of those things can be true. And certainly where she was found, she's only maybe 30 to 50 feet away from the roadway to the Ocean Parkway. And on the other side, there are houses you can see right into their breakfast tables as they're having breakfast at that time of the morning. So there's just no way she just suddenly decided to drop dead of natural causes. Agree. Question to you with me, the lawyer for Shannon Gilbert's family, John Ray, who's devoted, I'm sure, over a thousand hours to this case by

now. John Ray, you were saying that you don't or she didn't necessarily die the night that she was running, calling 911. Are you suggesting that she was held against her will for a period of time and then killed? That's a real possibility. And there's strange evidence. There's a lot of evidence that the public doesn't know. But I, you know, I've glommed from our investigations and depositions I've taken numerous depositions of people in Oak Beach and the long and short is that there could be it could very well be she was held for a while before she finally disappeared when the police helicopters flew over the marsh they were unable to see her so she might not

have been there is one you know one theory As well, some of the things that were found, Shannon's belongings, they didn't look like they had been in the marsh very long at all, as opposed to Shannon's body, which was completely decomposed. So, I mean, there are many more things. Well, let's just follow your theory, too, to its logical conclusion, and that is that more than one person is involved in the deaths of these 11 people, all women, one child. Is that your theory?

You think there's more than one killer? Yeah, that's my theory. And also, it's nine women, one Asian male who is a cross-dresser and a child. And in these cases as well, there could be a very well, it's what's entered into our investigation is a cultish element that could be involved, which would then suggest more. What do you mean? What cultish element are you talking about? Well, there's, you know, Mary, the mother of Shannon, was a practicing witch for 22 years, and she had a lot of connections in that area. And in fact, she was living off of Shannon's earnings during that time, so when Shannon was alive. And there's a real possibility that there's some connection there with the people who are involved in that kind of bizarre practice.

I find that that's getting to be outlandish. I mean, I'm not saying it's something not to investigate, but to suggest that these 11 people, and yes, one of them was an Asian male cross-dresser, you're absolutely correct, to suggest that a group of people would commit murder as part of a, I assume you're referring to the Wiccan beliefs? Yeah, but I mean, that's just one angle, but a lot of things are hard to believe in this case. So you got to, they have to be pursued. Well, as I like to tell juries, I like to go with what's probable, what's not, what's possible. I I mean it's possible that little green men flew down

from Mars and committed the murders it's possible is it probable no it's not and I find the proximity of her body's discovery to where she was banging on doors to be probative it It proves something to me. To you, John Ray, a renowned lawyer who is working with the victim's family, Shannon Gilbert's family, how far from those doors she was banging on to save her own life, how far from those doors was her body found? Her body's found about, I would say, less than a mile away on the other side of the marsh from where the other victims were found. Okay. Let's analyze that because that's hard evidence that you can't get away from.

James Shelnut, 27 years Metro Major case, SWAT, now lawyer. Shelnut, what does that tell you? It tells me that she did die close to the night, if not the night, she was bamming on doors. Because somebody was chasing her, and then they find her body less than a half a mile. That's a five-minute walk from where she was bamming on doors. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think that's well put. It definitely links back to everything that we know so far.

You know, there's been a lot of drama surrounding the case in that police are not releasing a lot of the vital information. Take a listen to our friend James Ford at PIX11 News. We are launching a website. It's called GilgoNews.com. With the hope that with its release, the public will generate new tips and new investigative leads. But the website has yet to work. And there's been criticism of investigators' development.

For years, nine years, the Suffolk County Police Department has covered up the facts in this investigation. John Ray is the attorney for the family of Shannon Gilbert. She was a sex worker whose disappearance after leaving the home of a client in the Gilgo area in 2010 sparked the search that resulted in so many bodies being found. Gilbert had called 911 at length the night she vanished. Release of the tapes of that call was among many things blocked by then-Police Chief James Burke and then-District Attorney Tom Spoda. Both men have now been convicted of crimes unrelated to the Gilgo killings. New leaders say today's disclosures show more openness, but they're still not releasing

Shannon Gilbert's 911 tape. We don't think she matches many of the patterns of the Gilgo Beach homicides. So was Shannon Gilbert's murder part of the work of a serial killer? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A case that has never been resolved. Are there other bodies? Are there other victims? We're focusing today on Shannon Gilbert. You know, I don't really understand why this is true. Because, you know, to Dave Mack joining me along with Ellen Kaloran, both investigative reporters at CrimeOnline.com.

Dave Mack, why is it that every time someone introduces this case, they go, a sex worker? You know, that little girl, the child, that child wasn't a sex worker. And very often when you're talking about homicide cases or any case forget just homicide you don't say oh um jackie howard was a victim today and she's a radio producer because that doesn't factor into it these women no matter what are always tagged as a sex worker. As if somehow that makes their lives less valuable. And Nancy, you know the sad reality of what you're pointing out. I went to the GilgoNews.com website while you were talking just to see how do they handle it. Well, you know the first line in the story about Shannon Gilbert?

It says, Shannon Gilbert, comma comma a craigslist escort went missing to ek ellen calorin joining me ellen what uh what do we know about the child that was buried with the child's mother nancy we know very little because we don't have a an identification on either of those victims but there we know that there were no the the mother was dismembered the child was not there were no visible signs of trauma on the child but we really know very very little about that case and police believe that it predates the Gilgo for it hmm I still say it's no coincidence they're all buried together. So the discussion that there's more than one serial

killer using the same dumping ground that's, you know, just think if you're at one end of the football field and you look down to the other end, they're not that much further away from each other than that. These bodies.

The burlap bags used consistently with many of the victims to put their bodies in, yes, it's the same killer. To Dr. Michelle Dupree, South Carolina medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, Dr. Dupree, when you find a child's body, even if skeletonized, correct me if I'm wrong, you can tell if it's a girl or a boy by the teeth, the jawline, and the pelvic area. You can tell the age and, of course, the length of the remains. Even if the child's body is skeletonized, what can you tell me about the identity of the child?

Yes, Nancy, we can tell the sex. We can determine the approximate age. We can also tell other things depending on, you know, how the child died. If there are injuries to the skeletal remain, we can see if they're, you know, gunshot wounds or sharp horse injuries or things like that, or blunt trauma if there's fractures. So we're able to tell oftentimes through mitochondrial DNA, which we can recover from the bone marrow, who that child is related to, provided we have a sample, of course, to match it with, a maternal sample. Mitochondrial DNA comes from the mother, and that is different from nuclear DNA, which you get, for instance, from, let's just say, a root of your hair, which has the mother and the father's genetic profile in it. To share a little point, speaking of the gene hunter, genetic genealogist, I'm still blown away by this belt they found. But I find it very hard

to believe, Cheryl LaPointe, that we can't identify who the perp is. You've got a belt, likely with DNA. It may have even been used to strangle one of the victims, it had to be for a sex motive. There should have been the killer's DNA in or on the victim's body. And you've even got the killer using one of the victim's cell phones to taunt the victim's family. The little sister picks up when he calls the victim home. I find it really hard to believe with all that evidence, we can't get the killer. We've got 11 dead bodies that we know of in this one dumping ground. Cheryl LaPointe, shouldn't there even on a body that's been disposed of, shouldn't there be, let's just say the victims were raped,

why can't we get DNA?'s just say the victims were raped. Why can't we get DNA? Nancy, if the victims were raped, you only have a certain amount of time that that DNA would be viable to, you know, you'd have to collect it within a certain amount of time to be able to identify that specific DNA. Wait, wait, wait. Let me explain what you just said, I think. And you correct me if I'm wrong. Because we hear of cases getting cracked years and years and years later, like the Golden State Killer case. Remember?

And they had, but they took the DNA, the sperm, disposed of and years pass, you may not be able to get the semen. Whereas in the earlier cases, many years pass before it's cracked, but they got the DNA, the semen, at the time of the rape. Is that right? That is correct, Nancy. They would have obtained that DNA at that time. If these bodies were found decomposed at a later time from when the death occurred, you won't have that particular DNA. Now, you could identify these victims who are unidentified with obtaining DNA from their bones. And that is when investigative genetic genealogy can come into play.

You would first run this DNA through the CODIS system to see if you could identify the bodies. If not, you run it again looking for familial DNA, possibly a relative of the DNA from the body. And if that doesn't work, we would use genetic genealogy. Familial DNA, such as what was used by, I think it was Paul Holes, when he helped as part of a team crack the Golden State killer case. To you, special guest joining us, the lawyer for Shannon Gilbert, it's John Ray. He's right. He said if this had been some millionaire debutante,

you couldn't have kept the experts and the CSI away from this spot. But that was not to be for Shannon Gilbert, and that breaks my heart. Because I think of her mom wondering what happened to Shannon. I'm just thinking about the discrepancy in the way that this case was treated because, as Gaber said, she was not a debutante. You know, I bet a lot of people in this room, like myself, were not debutantes. And I would certainly want our cases to get the love and attention that every case deserves. A family, many families, 11 families waiting for answers. Some of these women still Jane Doe.

We don't even know who they are. And having prosecuted a Jane Doe case, I know how that feels. You don't know who your victim is. You can go to Gilgows.com for more information. But we wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Grimes Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.