Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Bryan Kohberger Basking in Own Limelight with TV and Cable Access

Episode Date: March 17, 2023

As Byan Kohberger waits for his June trial day, he can amuse himself by watching coverage of his case. Inside his single cell, Kohberger is segregated from the other inmates, but has personal access to a television and basic cable. Nancy Grace and attorney Dale Carson discuss this privileged treatment  of the accused killer.   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Brian Koberger. Believe it or not, he probably knows that we're talking about him right now. And I'll tell you why. It has emerged in the last days that Koberger has his own jail cell with his own TV, including cable. And that he is obsessed with watching any and all coverage about, guess what, himself. That's right.

Right now, Brian Koberger, who was charged in the murders of four Idaho college students, is probably enjoying finding out that we're talking about him. It almost makes me not want to talk about him. But that said, I want to share with you what all we have learned about Koberger's life behind bars, including, of course, endless hours of coverage about himself. We know a lot more, but I want to start with that in joining me is high-profile lawyer out of Jacksonville, Florida, and former FBI agent Dale Carson. Dale, thanks for being with us. What do you think about Koberger watching

endless hours of coverage about himself? I'm just stunned that he has access, free access, to the media. Here in Jacksonville, Florida, the inmates in the county jail don't have access to any of that information, television or newspaper. So that was a restriction that was put on in the 1980s. And it just seems unusual because it gives him ideas and access to a great many bits of information which he might later use in order to defend his innocence, his guilt. I'm just thinking about what you said. I want to and I'm going to circle back to everything, all the amenities he has behind

bars. I've been to the jail. It's not a big jail. And I understand that they wake the inmates up with soft music. They let them have pizza night on Friday night. I said that to the twins. Hey guys, you want to have pizza night? They're like, yay, because they don't have to eat broccoli again. We eat it so much it has a pet name, Broggle. But hey, my son is six foot five, so don't knock it until you try it. I've done it all.

I've made, I call them Martian muffins when they were little because I made it with broccoli and they were green. We have broccoli roasted. We have it stir-fried. We had it stir-fried last night with golden raisins and cranberries, which my son, John David, picked around all the raisins and cranberries. I don't know how he's 6'5". But wait, how did I get off on broccoli? Oh yeah, pizza night. How dare they give this guy pizza night?

But soft music wake up. Really? But that said, he also is in his own cell, segregated from other inmates there at Lawton County, and has his own TV and basic cable an inmate says that he watches himself all the time that is really kind of bizarre okay I'll get on to him finding the Lord in a moment but what do you make of him loving every minute of the coverage about himself? Well, we know from his immediate history that he's a narcissist. He loves talking about himself. He loves thinking himself is vital and very important.

So now he is, thanks to his cable connection to the outside world. Hold on. You just gave me a thought, and you know I'll completely forget it in one minute. You said his view of himself. I'm going to circle back to the private TV and cable access he has, but that really jarred me when you said that, because when he was killing, according to prosecutors, killing those four students, there they were in a very vulnerable position.

They had been out that night. Some of them surely had been drinking, having a good time. And they're in bed. The lights are off. It's dimmed. Little do they know, Brian Koberger is going to come in dressed all in black with a face mask on and a sharp knife, fixed blade knife. The power he must have felt over those four victims, Dale Carson, is just sick. Well, it is. I mean, there's little doubt that someone who invests in a knife and breaking

into someone's house in the middle of the night in order to slaughter them is something that most of us could never even reasonably consider. And that's outside the range of normal human conduct. But this individual, as described by other inmates in the facility, has the look of Lance, the fellow who killed other people. So there's this stare that we've heard about at the student union with young ladies looking at him and him looking at them. I mean, there is something evil connected with this individual as based on his own behavior. That stare is something. My daughter saw his picture.

And the first thing she said is, Mom, his eyes look so evil. She hadn't seen a side by side of him and Bundy or anything like that. She came, looked over my shoulder, and I was reading an article on my iPad about him. And it had that, it's now everywhere, picture of him in his orange jumpsuit looking, I think he's going into court, but he's looking, turns back and looks at the camera. That's the picture she saw. And she's just 15 and it hit her um but back to him watching every minute of coverage it makes me think of other serial killers such as btk buying torture kill dennis raider who actually was communicating with the media i, they're fascinated with themselves. That's exactly right.

Even Bundy and I have seen some hand-drawn pencil sketches that he made of himself while he looked in a mirror. And he would draw himself. Okay, you're getting me off on that again. Oh, sorry. About Bundy drawing pictures of himself in his various costumes as he looked into the mirror yes okay so how does this relate back to btk and the fascination with self well i i think they grow up in an environment and i'm not a psychiatrist or a psychologist but i know enough

to know that they grow up in an environment and they're different than everybody else. And that's what sets them apart, sets them in a world of their own. And so it's something that we interviewed a number of serial killers back in the 80s and all of them had similar characteristics. So part of that similar characteristic is that they're loners. What characteristics? Don't build me up just to drop me flat. They're loners. They are not engaged with other groups. They tend to be by themselves

and they tend to focus on the evil parts of the world. And violence is something they're interested in. Sexuality is something that they're interested in. All of those things morph into what we today are calling incels. So these are individuals who simply cannot have a legitimate relationship with other humans, particularly of the opposite sex. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. So when you say incel, that's short.

That's abbreviated for involuntary celibate. In other words, a man that wants to be with women, but they don't want to be with him for whatever reason. He is not having sex with women. He's not dating no matter how much he wants to. Of course, the seminal case is out of California, Elliot Rogers, whose father was a famous director, as I recall. And he opens fire on the college campus and also releases, I guess, on YouTube, many of his incel rants about how much he hates women and why are they with this guy or that guy instead of with him. Listen.

Hi, Elliot Rodger here. Well, this is my last video. It all has to come to this. Tomorrow is the day of retribution. The day in which I will have my revenge against humanity. Against all of you. For the last eight years of my life, ever since I've hit puberty, I've been forced to endure an existence of loneliness, rejection,

and unfulfilled desires, all because girls have never been attracted to me. Girls gave their affection and sex and love to other men, but never to me. I'm 22 years old, and I'm still a virgin. It has been very torturous. College is the time when everyone experiences those things such as sex and fun and pleasure. But in those years, I've had to rot in loneliness. It's not fair. But in those years, I've had to rot in loneliness. It's not fair.

You girls have never been attracted to me. I don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me, but I will punish you all for it. It's an injustice, a crime, because I don't know what you don't see in me. I'm the perfect guy and yet you throw yourselves at all these obnoxious men instead of me the supreme gentleman oh to hear him is just chilling don't you find it interesting don't you find it interesting that these men come from a woman? I mean, the whole thing is sort of bizarre to me because women, I don't think, fully appreciate their ability to destroy or injure a male by denying them access. And that is in Mother Nature.

I guess you're talking about access to sex. Well, I am talking about that. Every time I talk to you, I'm talking about basic cable in his cell. Somehow, Dale Carson, you end up talking about sex. Well, it's a pretty important aspect of our existence, wouldn't you agree? Well, I don't know what it the way my dad treated my mom. Whenever she would have a success or some achievement at work or at church or whatever she was doing, he was happy. Of course.

He was never like jealous or angry. And my husband is the same way. My son, whenever my daughter, Lucy, achieves something, he's like the first one to say, wow, Lucy, that's great. I just find it, I don't understand how an insult grows up with so much hatred toward women but there had to be hatred toward women and Brian Koberger's heart if in fact he did this thing can I get you out of the weeds Del Carson and back in the middle of the road talking. Koberger's obsession with himself and how the prosecutor can use that at trial. Well, if he ever decided to testify on the stand, you and I both know how it would all happen, right? He would suddenly be angry and full of himself on the stand,

and he would lose any benefit with the jury panel that he might have acquired by testifying. I mean, that's the way those things occur. We also know that inside the Lottie County Jail, the jailers choose what the other inmates watch, probably because it's a group TV, and you don't want the inmates to break out into a fight and stab each other with a shank over whether they're going to watch Martha Stewart or Let's Make a Deal. That's how that's why that's why they stopped having inmates given access to the Internet or at the time cable in the Jacksonville jails, because they would fight over what channel was to be displayed and here Kohlberg has got his own private delivery service with cable

I mean it's incredible why would you do this? Well wait a minute it's not really that hard to imagine if you could see my son he wants to watch kung fu and action and I'm on his side don't tell Lucy and she wants to watch vampire diaries and she wants to watch Gossip Girl and Gilmore Girls she's all about Rory and where's Rory gonna go to college so and they have let me just say very strident discussions about what's going to be. Well, my husband and I just want to watch a Father Brown and fall asleep. But that said, I can imagine hardened inmates, you know, literally stabbing each other with a homemade shank over whether they're going to watch.

Is as the world turns or that is that even still on or is that off? No, it's not on. Okay. A soap opera or whatever, a talk show, I can definitely see that happening. But my point is, Koberger has his own TV, and he gets to pick what he watches as opposed to the other inmates. That's not right. No, no, it's not. And it does show a favoritism toward his situation, which is that he's in custody for slaughtering four people.

We also know that he has not asked for mental health counseling, but he has, quote, found God behind bars. Can I tell you a funny story? Sure. Okay, I was a new prosecutor and I had just been assigned my own courtroom and I was handling all the state's business for that courtroom which was a lot of a lot of felonies. So okay the way that courtroom worked is we would handle the jail cases first on plea and arraignment day because you know the inmates would come over on a bus and you wanted them generally finished by a certain time whatever business you were going to do with them so they could get back on the bus and get back in

time. So I would try to take the jailmates pleas and plea discussions first and in this court the defense attorney for each jailmate would come into a conference room i would sit there and then they'd bring in the inmate and i'd go through the police file and what i knew about his record and get make an offer on a plea deal and it was usually a lot and they usually wouldn't take it and then finally break down and take it as i'm striking no not after i started striking a jury no more deals then but that said one inmate came in with a giant hand crocheted cross made you know out of yarn I guess hanging around his neck probably no it was like red yarn or something and I looked at him I thought

you know what this guy is clearly trying to turn his life around he has found the Lord so you know I'm going to take that into consideration in the deal. He's trying to turn his life around. So I told him that. I said, did you make that? Why did you make that? What does that mean to you? Well, he gave me all the right answers. That said, can I tell you, that was on a Thursday.

The next Thursday, about 18 inmates came in with giant yarn crosses around their necks. Yes, I was duped. I was duped. So now here it is again. Koberger has found the Lord. What do you make of that, Carson? Well, I think Jesus occasionally lives in the jails because they don't have any hope. They know they're guilty. And, you know, you've got to pay the piper here on this planet. This better not be any kind of a Christ joke because I do not take very kindly to that. Oh, it's not a joke. If you've ever been in the old prisons, you'll see beautiful pictures drawn on the concrete walls of the Christ. I mean,

it is true that that's all they have to look forward to because they know they're guilty. They know they're guilty, but you know, you got to give Caesar his due, right? And that's on this planet, and that's where he's got to pay the piper. And what happens in the future, if there is a heaven, which I hope there is and I believe there is, then, of course, that's on him, but not for here, for us. For us today, if he's convicted of these crimes, he needs to suffer a maximum penalty. This is someone who does not need to be living among us any longer. I understand that he is given a private Mass on Sunday. I've never heard that he or his family were very religious prior to this.

Maybe they are, and I don't know about it. But he does go to Mass, and he has deep conversations with the priest. Of course, Dale Carson explained why. We will never know what those two are saying to each other. Well, that's a privilege, but it may only last as long as he's alive, right? Well, we're never going to hear what they say because of the priest. Penitent? Yes, penitent.

Client. because the priest uh yes penitent uh client that's you know priest parishioner what you say to your pastor or your spiritual counselor can never come into court it's like an attorney client privilege or husband wife privilege absolutely it is and it does not the priest well i guess it would be the priest that would do it. But for instance, if a husband tells a wife, hey, I committed a murder, and she's called to the stand, it's the husband that calls the privilege. That's a privilege communication. You can't ask her about that. So anything that they're saying to each other will never be divulged in court. So know that we also know he gets to go to the library we know that he can get calls and he has options to call on

FaceTime or contact them by regular phone so he's got a lot of privileges what he's got unique privileges that the other inmates are not enjoying because they don't have the same notoriety that he is. Because they haven't killed four people. That's exactly right. But I'm telling you, I'm of the opinion that they shouldn't have access to the media because it simply allows them to generate their own. And as a defense attorney, you will have clients come to you and say, well, this guy only got this much, and this guy did this, and he said that.

And it makes for a great deal of confusion because it's likely, not often true, but likely that we know whether our clients are guilty or not. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace What do you think, other than him basking in his own limelight. What do you make of the fact that many within law enforcement are voicing the opinion that he is a perfect candidate for the death penalty? Well, I believe that there are certain people, as I said earlier, who should not be among us any longer, and we don't need to be supporting them. How to manage that, whether you empower the government to kill people, and we don't need to be supporting them. How to manage that, whether you empower the government to kill people, which we don't want other people killing people. We don't want that.

But it's a big controversy. There are people who are deathly against, going to phrase, the death penalty, and there are those who are for it. My position ultimately is that if you do something as horrible as what he's accused of doing, if you're the perpetrator of that, you no longer need to be among us. But I would like to interview him to find out something that we don't need to know, but I'd love to know is what motivated him. What was the point where he reached the decision in his own mind that he was going to commit this horrible offense? The motive. And I understand we don't need to know that but I certainly would be interested in knowing that. Aside from your or my personal feelings about the DP, he is a candidate for the death penalty because the state has to lay out what is called aggravating circumstances in order to seek the

death penalty. And one of those aggravating circumstances in many jurisdictions is mass casualties, which equals more than one dead body. And in this case, we absolutely have that. Now, here's an indication, Dale Carson. The judge has given another lawyer to the defense team. He's really lawyering up. He's got a fleet of lawyers now on his behalf. And to try or defend a death penalty case, the lawyers must be death penalty qualified. I had

gotten, I was death penalty qualified as a prosecutor. For the defense, you have had to be second chair on a death penalty case. You've had to put in so many hours on death penalty work. That's right.

Or else you cannot represent the defendant at a death penalty case. And now we see him lawyering up and getting more lawyers. I think that's a sign to me that the state will seek the death penalty. That has not been announced yet we also know the idaho jail officials are willing to accommodate this quadruple murder suspect brian coberger's vegan diet i wonder if they wash the pans thoroughly. Well, they say they're not going to buy new pots and pans. But remember, he did make his mom and dad buy new pots and pans. And that makes you wonder if that's not the trigger for his incel behavior.

What do you mean? The relationship between his mother and father with him. I mean, he had to generate the hostility toward women from some place. And you wonder why the fuck... But what does that have to do with a vegan diet?

Well, they got rid of their pans. Who's in control of that household? Oh, well, obviously, Koberger. Can I tell you something else I'm so happy about? Because you know the circumstances surrounding the arrest are allowed into evidence at trial. Absolutely. When they did the pre-dawn, the early morning raid on Kober-workers family home in the Poconos he

was standing there in the kitchen with in a pair of shorts wearing surgical gloves separating trash and putting his trash into sandwich bags I could not be any happier at this moment who does that that? Timing. Timing is everything, isn't it? Who does that? Nobody, other than guilty people. But the same thing is true when he's asking for a priest at his jail cell to give him, well, to allow him to confess, if you will. I mean, it's the same sort of thing, right? He knows he's guilty.

He's got to give that information to somebody, and he can give it in a priest-penitent relationship, and it never gets disclosed outside. And, you know, it's fascinating to me that he can do that. What, do they give him a private room? Because if the priest is in the jail, so with him, certainly somebody's got to overhear that. Can I just talk about him standing in the kitchen in a pair of surgical gloves, separating the trash, and putting his trash in baggies?

Can we just send him in, please? I'm busy. The cat is interested in Brian Koberger. That would be one of the first things I want to tell the jury. Just let it sink in. When he's arrested, he's standing in his parents' kitchen in a pair of shorts and plastic gloves, separating out his trash and putting it in sandwich bags. Just hold on. Wait.

Let that sink in. What in the H-E-double-L? Why was he doing that? Obviously, because he was trying to hide evidence. And he's trying to collect perhaps trophies as well. Think about that. Sadly, we're talking about it and it's going to be online

and he's going to probably find out about it when he hops onto the computer in the library at the jail. And that will give him some time to think about it and come up with some zany theory about why he was doing it to give his lawyers at trial, which I think is going to be a death penalty case. Okay. Dale Carson, any other thoughts you want to throw at me about Brian Koberger? And can you please, not about sex and not about incels, something else. Right.

So, so one of the things that occurred to me is they've subpoenaed all this information from a variety of places and companies. And one of those thoughts that occurred to me is when you have Grubhub that's delivering food to places, if he was on their app and he had signed up to those programs, any of these delivery programs, and he's in the vicinity of that residence where these murders occurred, they would notice him that somebody wanted food delivered to that residence. And that can allow someone like Koberger access to your residence when they're just delivering

the food. They're going to see you. You're going to give them a tip. You're going to open the door. You might even invite them into the kitchen. Those are the dangers that we face today with the Internet and these systems which don't verify. And, of course, with Kohlberger, if he announced that he was, in fact, a Ph.D. student at a nearby college, he would pass any initial vetting that companies would do. How do you protect the driver? I've got advice for everybody on that. Tell the driver, leave it at the door and go away you've already put your tip in so there's no need for you to have uh personal

interaction with the food truck i mean the food delivery but you know what what you're talking about at first i started to poo poo it but didn't they order food that night? Yes, Sidney's saying yes, they did. And they ordered it, no doubt, that's a consistent behavior with them. Right before the murders. Right before the murders. Dale Carson, the reason you come up with all of these really great ideas. Former Fed with the FBI, now high profile lawyer, trial lawyer in Jacksonville. Okay, Della Carson, we'll see if any of our discussion comes to fruition. And Coburger, hey, we know you're watching. Goodbye, friends. Not you, Coburger.

Not you. Everybody but you. This is an iHeart Podcast.