Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BRYAN KOHBERGER DEATH PENALTY SHOWDOWN, DEMANDS TRIAL IN "LIBERAL" BOISE

Episode Date: July 25, 2024

In a motion, Bryan Kohberger attorney Anne Taylor argues that a change of venue is absolutely necessary for the accused quadruple murderer to have a fair trial. Taylor cites “inflammatory, emotion evoking and often misleading, false, and poorly sourced” media coverage that has “utterly corrupted” the Moscow community. Taylor reports that their survey has revealed 70% of locals have already formed a guilty opinion of Kohberger.  Taylor suggests that Kohberger’s trial be moved to Ada County, home to state capital, Boise, 296 miles from Moscow. Taylor argues that Ada County’s population of over 500,000 provides a much more adequate pool, and is Kohberger’s best chance at receiving an impartial jury. Taylor also touches on the logistics Ada County provides, including larger courtrooms and easy access to the state’s largest airport.   Despite Taylor’s push to move Kohberger’s trial to Ada County, it’s ultimately up to the judge to decide if a change of venue is appropriate, and where the trial should move. Taylor could wind up with a much more conservative jury than would have been found in the college town where the crimes took place. Elmore County is home to Mountain Home Air Force Base, and Ada County actually encompasses Gowen Field, an Idaho Air National Guard base.   Prosecutors have until August 12th to challenge the change of venue motion. Defense attorneys will then have a chance to submit another rebuttal. Both sides will make their arguments in front of the judge on August 29th. Anne Taylor plans to call four witnesses including trial consultant, Dr. Bryan Edelman, who was allowed to complete his survey process. Judge Judge will decide if and where the case will move, and whether or not he will go with it. In the case that Judge withdraws, the Supreme Court will choose a new judge to preside over the case.   Joining Nance Grace Today:  Howard Blum - Author: "When The Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for The Idaho Student Murders"  Website: Howardblum.com  INSTA: howard_ Stephanie Pitcher - Defense attorney and Civil trial attorney with Parker & McConkie, former felony prosecutor - Website: https://www.parkerandmcconkie.com  Angela Arnold (GA)  Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA, AngelaArnoldMD.com, Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital, Voted My Buckhead’s Best Psychiatric Practice of 2022, 2023 and 2024. Chris McDonough -  Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, Host of YouTube channel- ‘The Interview Room’, ColdCaseFoundation.org    Joseph Scott Morgan -  Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", @JoScottForensic   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Brian Koberger's death penalty showdown demanding in court his trial be moved to liberal Boise. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Brian Koberger's defense files for a trial venue change, citing extensive ongoing and inflammatory publicity. Will the motion be successful? Okay, he wants to move to liberal Boise. Well, it's my understanding that Boise repeatedly votes in a conservative manner. So what's liberal about Boise? Well, first of all, listen to this.

Our defense team firmly, and I mean firmly, believes in Mr. Koberger's innocence. And right now he's being held to have a trial in a county that believes that he is guilty. If you deny a change of venue, Mr. Coburger's constitutional right to a fair trial is denied. Demanding a change of venue. Hold on just a moment. Before we get into the legalities of Brian Coburger demanding a change of venue in a death penalty showdown, straight out to Joe Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, host of a hit series, Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. I could go on, but Joe Scott Morgan, you had a really interesting insight about moving the trial to Boise. Everybody may wonder, why am I asking a forensics expert a legal question? But hold your horses.

Joe Scott, jump in. Yeah, all the forensic pathologist has to do is grab their car keys and drive right down the street or maybe even walk across the street because that's where the autopsies were actually done on the four victims. And so it's not going to be a real heavy lift for them and have them there. And just imagine that just for a second, Nancy, this idea that they're going to move this venue there where these four beautiful children were actually examined after the brutality that they sustained, allegedly at Koberger's hands. Howard Bloom joining us. You probably know him very well by now, all of you legal eagles, because I sure do. I felt like I knew him before I ever actually met him on air because he's the author of When the Night Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders. You can find him at howardbloom.com. That's spelled B-L-U-M.

Howard, what do you make of the change of venue motion? I think it's a very cynical move by the defense. What they're trying to do ultimately is buy time. Whether the trial takes place in Moscow, where it should take place, where the community needs to have its literally wounds healed, or it takes place in Boise is not going to make a difference to the verdict. Whether the forensic examiners can get there quicker or they have to drive several hours to get there. That doesn't make a difference. It's all going to come down to the evidence. Well, one thing about when you have the medical examiner sitting right across the street, there may be a certain familiarity amongst the population with that medical examiner. I know who our medical examiner is, but I want you to listen very carefully to what Koberger's defense attorney, Ann Taylor, says one more time. Our defense team firmly, and I mean firmly, believes in Mr. Coburger's innocence.

And right now he's being held to have a trial in a county that believes that he is guilty. If you deny a change of venue, Mr. Coburger's constitutional right to a fair trial in a county that believes that he is guilty. If you deny a change of venue, Mr. Covertor's constitutional right to a fair trial is denied. She believes that firmly. Okay, what does the prosecution say? Listen. We at least owe Latah County, the people of Latah County, the attempt to see the jury here first and not just rely on there's been a lot of publicity. There's been a lot of publicity in every Moscow. It's not Latah County. It's everywhere. So I don't

think that a change of venue is going to solve any of these problems. And the state's position on venue is that the case should be held here. It's a Latah County case. We believe that we can select an appropriate panel of jurors from Latah County. And believe it or not, cult mom Lori Vallow and I believe her fourth husband, the prophet Chad Daybell, have somehow reared their ugly heads in the middle of the Kohlberger prosecution. Listen. Experts believe the judge will have a hard time denying the change of venue due to both extreme public interest in the case and tight connections in Moscow to both law enforcement and the University of Idaho. The recent decisions to move both Lori Vallow and Chad Daybelt's cases from Fremont to Ada County due to publicity may further push the judge to side with Taylor and approve the change of venue. Straight out to high profile lawyer in this jurisdiction,

she practices in both Idaho and Utah, Stephanie Pitcher from Parker McConkel Law Firm. Stephanie, who important for my purposes, former felony prosecutor, Stephanie, they always ask for a change of venue. I'm not surprised, but given Boise's track record, I mean, when you don't know a horse, look at the track record. Why do they want to move to Boise? Do you believe it's because they think they'll get a better shot at a liberal jury pool? When I say liberal, I'm not talking about who you're going to vote for. I'm talking about how you view the system. Like for instance, Stephanie, no way would I put somebody on the jury that didn't have a job or they're not, did not, had not had a job or was not retired.

If I had a stay-at-home mom, usually they wanted to get off the jury pool because they were worried sick about their child. But if I had one, I wanted one that had worked before. Why? Because they have a sense of duty. They show up on time. They do their job. I don't want somebody that sits at home watching cartoons all day, you know, eating Pop-Tarts, not interested. I don't want anybody that's had a run-in with

police before that has been prosecuted, convicted, or has a dear loved one that has been prosecuted or convicted. I mean, there are a lot, there's a lot that goes into picking a jury. So what is their hope? What are they up to, Stephanie? Sure, yeah. And I'll add, it's not just how someone sees the system, but it may also be how these individuals view the death penalty. And I certainly think that that has something to do with their thinking. But ultimately, I think what the defense is hoping for is a larger jury pool,

a larger community of people to pull from in order to potentially see the jury. And all of those things are going to come out in order to potentially see the jury. And all of those things are going to come out in voir dire if individual has been previously convicted, if they have a relationship with law enforcement. And so the defense is hoping that they have a larger pool of people to pull from in order to try to see a fair and impartial. You mean the defense wants a larger pool of deadbeats to pick to put on the jury. I hear you loud and clear, Stephanie Pitcher. You're joining me and you may wonder, first it was just Scott Morgan. Now she's asking a renowned psychiatrist about jury selection. Yes, I am. And I'll tell you why.

With me, Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist, joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction at Angela Arnold MD. There's no way I'm suggesting you can judge a book by its cover because I know a lot better than that. But we have a limited time in voir dire. We can't find out everything about everybody. We have to trust our gut. We have to look at what we know about that person, which is precious little before we put them in the box, the jury box. So if I have some woman coming in with her military outfit on, and I know that she's made it up to it, let's just say, Lieutenant, I know she shows up. She focuses. She does her job. She's used to reaching a decision up against some dead, long hair, dead beat, doesn't have a job, hasn't had a job, smells like cigarette smoke, looks stoned. Yeah, I'm picking her.

Well, and also, Nancy, the person that you described is also more used to speaking to other people and listening to other people's opinions and developing an opinion based on the evidence that's presented. If someone is chosen from the jury pool that, as you said, sits in front of the TV all day, doesn't really have a lot of interaction with other people in the community, then they are not accustomed to talking to other people and coming up with a decision. Okay. They don't know how, they don't know how to interact and, and listen to other people's opinions and form a decision on their own. I think that would be a, I think that would be a major problem. And that's why they, that's why we fill out those forms before we go to a jury,

to see what our background is, because that's what they're looking for. People that are, you know, people that are out there every day that can actually come together and form a decision. Well, another thing is, and I know I'm going to be attacked online by throwing out stereotypes. Believe me, I put on plenty of people on the jury with long hair that looked scraggly, but I liked what they said in voir dire, which coincidentally means to speak the truth. I felt that I connected with them. There was something about them, something that they said that made me think that's the juror I want. Now, there, of course, is the time that I put a convicted bank robber on a bank robbery trial. Unbeknownst to me, I found out after I'd already

struck the jury and it was too late to have him thrown off. I had lost my opportunity. We got a conviction. But that said, again, you cannot judge a book by its cover. But maybe they're doing this Stephanie Pitcher, a high profile trial lawyer, because it's their best shot. Think about this. OK, again, this is not about politics, which I hate politics. 50.4% went Trump, 46.5% went Biden in Boise. So it's pretty close, but interesting 48, nearly 49,000 Democrats, 106,000 Republicans. Does that tell me much? Actually, no, because your views on crime very often do not mesh with your views on politics. But maybe they're thinking, Stephanie, hey, yes, it's conservative in Boise, but it's more liberal than it is where the murders occurred in Moscow. Yeah, that's certainly true. I definitely think that's part of the consideration for them. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we also have to deal with the fight against the death penalty. In this particular jurisdiction of Idaho, it is extremely rare for a death penalty sentence to be handed down. As a matter of fact,

veteran trial lawyers will tell you if the state is seeking the death penalty, it may thwart even getting a guilty conviction. Listen. The death penalty is extremely rare in Idaho, and it is carried out even more rarely. There have only been three successful executions in the state since the federal government lifted a ban on capital punishment in 1976. Those sentenced to death are automatically granted a post-conviction review and an appeal opportunity. Their cases often go before the Supreme Court to confirm the capital punishment. Right now, legal battle being waged in the courtroom. First ever change of venue to

liberal Boise, their words, not mine, and the fight over the death penalty qualified and must find one aggravating circumstance exists in the four victims' deaths. The jury must come to a unanimous decision to inflict the capital punishment. What is an aggravating circumstance? It's a circumstance in death penalty cases that may or may not exist in other cases, such as the victim is a child, the victim is a senior, you killed a police officer, you killed a judge or a politician, you committed mass murder, in other words, more than one body. Your case was particularly heinous as it compares to other cases. You killed someone for a pecuniary or money interest. You lie in wait, which shows cold blood. Or you committed a murder in the commission of another felony, such as rape, armed robbery. Those are

a few aggravating circumstances that are recognized across the country by DP death penalty states. To Chris McDonough joining me, director at the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective with over 300 homicide investigations under his belt. I found him where he's the host of a YouTube channel, The Interview Room on this case.

Chris McDonough, after you have given your blood, sweat and tears, literally on a homicide investigation, how does it feel to sit back and watch the lawyers go at it in the courtroom over change of venue or arguing against the death penalty in a death penalty state? How does that make law enforcement feel? You know, Nancy, at times it can be very frustrating.

But then the other side of the coin is if the defense is completely off the rails. I mean, moving to Boise, they obviously haven't done their homework yet because that in the law enforcement community is called the blue dot. And what I mean by that, there are so many retired law enforcement officers living in that jurisdiction. Good luck getting, you know, an impartial jury. So when you start hearing stuff like that, you kind of get a little hope that the defense is really headed in the wrong direction. You know, I've never heard that that phrase before the description, the blue dot. Of course, you know, Chris McDonough, one of the first questions the defense is going to ask is, are any of you or anyone close to you in law enforcement?

Have you ever heard that question asked during a fire? Absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, I used to tell all my friends, tell them you know me and you'll get out of jury duty. Gee, I've never said anything like that. But that said, what more do we know about the death penalty in Idaho? We know it's extremely rare. We know that it is conducted with the needle. We know that if the drugs for execution by lethal injection, which is the needle, are not obtained, you don't have the drugs to make that work, which there's a shortage, by the way. The alternative is firing squad. To Joe Scott Morgan, tell me about the drugs necessary to perform a death penalty execution by lethal injection.

Well, in Idaho, they actually use phenobarbital, which has traditionally been used as an anti-seizure medication, but it has lethal effects when given in the proper dosages. And when they talk about these cocktails, what they're saying is, and this goes to this idea of cruel and, you know, cruel and unusual, they will give the individual kind of a sedative beforehand. It's like a precursor to anesthesia that'll kind of put them in this relaxed state where they're kind of in a dreamlike state. And then they'll push the phenobarb at that point in time. And, you know, you hear these accounts with people that are in the death chamber or the reporters that are on the side of the glass and they're saying, well, he began to labor in breathing, this sort of thing. We could hear it, you know, and he started snoring. You hear that a lot. And then all of a sudden,

they go to sleep at that point in time. And it's almost in a comatose state until their heart stops. Joe Scott, are you telling me they basically fall asleep? Yeah, to a certain degree. Just anybody that's ever undergone surgery, you know, where you have that kind of dark, you know, moment that kind of washes over you, where you have no memory of it. No, that has never happened to me, Joe Scott Morgan. I say this is not going to work, but OK, four, three, two, one. And then I say, well, aren't we starting?

And it's over. That's what happens to me. There's no in between. That's terrifying. So you're saying that with the lethal cocktail, lethal injection, the defendant will basically fall asleep. Could you, and I'm going to follow this up with Howard Bloom and Chris McDonough, could you just tell me, could you give me the dichotomy, the comparison to what these four young students went through? And you know, Joe Scott, my children are looking at colleges

right now. And every time I think about this case, I think about in two years, they would be where these four beautiful students were in school, happy, happy, happy, pursuing their dreams, their lives before them. What happened to them, Joe Scott? They didn't just fall asleep and never wake up. No, no. The dichotomy is, I think, probably an understatement. It's a harsh reality. This is a brutal, brutal event that took place, Nancy.

And even as a college professor now at this stage in my life, I've had a hard time getting past those events because my town where I teach is very similar to Moscow. And so I view these students and I, you know, it's hard for me not to reflect on this, but it was absolute the height of brutality that all of these kids went through. And compared to what might happen in the event that a death penalty is rendered here and that they would eventually ever follow through with it, it's very, very merciful compared to what these kids went through, Nancy. And that would be? Well, you're talking about multiple sharp force injuries with these kids to what we understand at this point. And, you know, one of the things I've always reflected on, Nancy, is that with sharp force injuries, one of the things that occurs is that our pain centers fire. Just imagine, if you will, that every time

that edged weapon touches the surface of the skin and breaks it, there is another moment in time where that pain center fires. And you've got multiple of these firing all over, not to mention the hopelessness that you have, that you're going to be able to escape this. You can actually feel the warmth of your blood beginning to leach out onto your skin. Your breathing becomes labored, but all the while you're trying to fight at a primal level. This is one of the most horrific deaths anybody can experience. I've worked a lot, a lot of sharp force injury deaths over the course of my career, and they are by far, and I even compare this to like shotgun wounds, they are by far the most brutal. I cannot begin, and listen, I know why, bringing this back to the jury, I know

why they want to try to escape the original site that this happened in, because when the jury actually sees, Nancy, those images from the interior of this structure and they see what was done to these kids, their mouth will open. They will be aghast at what they're seeing. They are not going to be able to take the measure of the brutality here. Prosecutors plan to seek the death penalty for the accused Idaho students murderer. Battle is raging. Even as we are speaking, the death penalty is being ward over in a court of law, legal briefs firing back and forth. Private investigators for the prosecution working day and night. Why? To beat the Idaho death penalty. It is typically death by needle, which is lethal injection.

If those particular drugs cannot be obtained, it will be death by firing squad. Again, DPs in Idaho are few and far between. Listen. Danette Jean Elg reports to police she has a prowler. Days later, her mutilated body is found on her punctured waterbed. Danette suffers 15 stab wounds, but did manage to inflict injury on her attacker, Richard Albert Leavitt. After killing Danette, Leavitt removed her sexual organs, then goes to the emergency room for his own wounds. Levitt's blood at the scene becomes part of the evidence that convicts Levitt, and he is sentenced to death.

Levitt spends nearly 30 years on death row before the sentence is carried out by lethal injection June 12, 2012. Three hot Santa caught. Daily bed changes with fresh linens, special meals. OK, he had 30 years of that. Joe Scott Morgan, did I hear that correctly? That he after killing Danette, he then cut out her sex organs? Yes, that's what you heard. And the height, of brutality there. And again, this goes to this idea that he languished on death row. And I think that a lot of people,

you know, might think, well, it's good that he languished, but this is not going to be a quick process. However you cut it, Nancy, it's just not going to be quick. They're going to sit there for a protracted period of time. Languished, you mean got online girlfriends, was funneled money, gained notoriety. All right. If you call that languishing, I do not. But that is the ilk. That is the person that lands on the Idaho death row. But hold on, wait a minute. What about Paul Rhodes? Listen. In 20 days, meth addict Paul Rhodes puts Idaho residents in a state of fear. February 28th, 21-year-old Stacey Baldwin is abducted while working at a convenience store in Blackfoot. On March 17th, Idaho Falls convenience store clerk 23-year-old Nolan Haddon's

body is found in the store's walk-in cooler. Two days later, special education teacher Susan Mickelbacher is abducted in a parking lot, driven to a rural area, raped and shot nine times. Rhodes is convicted and sentenced to death for the murders of Mickelbacher and Baldwin. More than 20 years later, Paul Ezra Rhodes is put to death by lethal injection. Think about it. This 23-year-old Nolan Haddon is just working at a convenience store when he is ambushed by Rhodes. Then a special ed teacher, a beloved special ed teacher, Susan Mikkelbacher, abducted in a parking lot. Textbook. Driven to a rural area.

Brutally raped. Brutally raped. And then shot nine times. Okay, Paul Ezra Rhodes, of course, rotten hell. But then there's the poster boy for the Idaho death penalty. Listen. Chad Daybell, now convicted and sentenced to death for the murders of his first wife, Tammy Daybell, and his second wife's two children, Tylee Ryan and J.J. Vallow, may have a long wait on death row.

Daybell has yet to be transferred to death row and is entitled to a post-conviction review and at least one appeal opportunity when his death warrant is signed. The appeal process typically goes on for years. The average length of stay before execution in Idaho is currently more than 27 years. That's a long time for me to foot the bill for these people. When you think about Chad Daybell, we immediately think of little JJ and his teen sister Tylee, whose body was rendered down like an animal at a slaughterhouse to a bucket of skin and fat. Let me let that sink in for just a moment. But then there's his wife, Tammy Daybell, also murdered. Why? So he could sleep with cult mom Lori Vallow, his pickup line. Hey, we were married in a previous life, so we might as well go to the motel now. Him. Yes, him. Death penalty, Idaho. So what about this case?

With those cases ringing in their ears, the defense team for Brian Koberger fighting tooth and nail to defeat the death penalty. But reality check, before we get bogged down again, no offense, Stephanie Pitcher, with the legalities of the death penalty to Howard Bloom, author of When the Night Comes Falling, a new book chock full of research about the Brian Koberger murders, excuse me, alleged murders. Howard, I would like you and Chris to explain what the victims went through before they bled out dead. Howard? It was a extremely violent and brutal crime. Consider the suspect went into the third floor bedroom and found Maddie. I believe she was awoken from sleep imagine being awakened from a deep

sleep and then find a man above you with a knife he slaughters her and then Kelly though at this point is awake she tries to escape she goes to the back of the small room she's wedged up against the bed she has her hands up she's fighting her father has said like a tiger she succumbs to her wounds the killer then walks down this narrow staircase he goes on to the second floor and there is Ethan to confront him they've heard the noise they've heard the door barking before Ethan can say anything he slashed in the neck with with the knife and then most chillingly the killer says to Zaina don't worry I'm not going to hurt you but he does hurt her she has defensive wounds

as a knife wound right through her palm. She's really fighting for her life, but she quickly succumbs. And then the killer then begins to leave the house. It happens very quickly. It's very brutal. But imagine being anyone awakened from a deep sleep and being confronted by a man holding a knife. Chris McDonough, again, director of Cold Case Foundation, but for my purposes, the star of YouTube channel Interview Room, former homicide detective, 300 plus homicide investigations under his belt. You know, you have been to so many homicide scenes, as has Joe Scott. Explain what these victims went through.

When we're talking about a death penalty felon, basically falling to sleep and dying, what these four victims lived through is almost indescribable. The blood literally pouring down the sides of the house. Explain, Chris McDonough, you and I have been to the scene. Describe what happened to these four students. Yeah, Nancy, you are 1000% correct. I mean, if we think about the brutality of the horror that took place in that house

and to the point where they had to destroy the house, which I think is a mistake, but that aside, imagine, you know, put yourself into the, let's go to the third floor for a moment and put ourselves into that room. The two victims are sleeping. They are obviously attacked brutally. And that was what was taking place on both floors inside of that house to the point where today he gets to sit back to your point and lean over to the defense counsel and say whatever he says.

But those victims had no way of ever, ever getting their say outside of the prosecution office now. If the judge grants a change of venue, will Brian Koberger face a more conservative jury? How would travel to a new location affect proceedings? Another stumbling block for the state is going to be just how one person, Brian Koberger, managed to overcome not one, two, three, but four victims. One thing I'd like to point out to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, is that yes, according to the state, he murdered four people, but two of them were actually all four of them were one at a time. His victims were asleep or going to sleep in the dark in their beds, unarmed when he comes in. And of course, two of the victims were sleeping together, but he killed one as the other still lie in the bed and then her.

So it's not one against four. That is a misconception. Every murder was one on one. Explain how did he pull it off? Because I've heard it over and over and over by talking heads. They pull it off. One person kills four. It wasn't like that. It was a series of one on ones. Yeah, he's got the element of surprise here. And you're talking about these college, the college kids that are in this, I'm not going to say dreamlike state, but you know how it is when, and particularly if you've, if you've been out on the town, you have any alcohol in your system, you're laid back, you're relaxed, and all of a sudden some demonic force almost sets upon you. And so you have no idea what's happening at that moment in time. So for each one of these

individuals, if you've got an individual that is completely sober, they're focused on what they're doing, and they show up with a weapon at the scene like this weapon, because it's unlike any other kind that's out there relative to a combat knife, it's very particular, and they know what they're doing, then yeah, it's possible to pull it off one by one, and they're not going to put up much of a defense, other than that initial strike where they're aware that they are being struck. But at that point, Tom, it's too late. But to you, Chris McDonough joining us, former homicide detective, the defense is going to argue no blood in the car, no blood on his clothes or shoes found at the home, no murder weapon. So how did he pull it off? Like Joe Scott Morgan just explained, but yet not have any bloody evidence. Well, you know,

that's a great point, but there's no clothing discovered or recovered. There was some type of, you know, blood evidence that was recovered at his apartment. We don't know. Remember, they did a search warrant over at his apartment. And I think it was on a pillow or a bed sheet of some sort, a comforter, where they tested positive for blood. We don't know what the results of that test are to this point. However, that may be problematic. Then, of course, we have the sheath, right, where we have the CNA match on that button, as Doc Morgan

has pointed out numerous occasions, to that K-bar knife. So, the fact that we don't have any, quote, physical evidence initially in terms of the information we're provided doesn't mean it doesn't exist yet. And so I think the defense also has to be very careful when they go out and they start putting information like that out into the public arena because it could come back to bite them. Here's another issue. Let's go to Howard Bloom and Stephanie and Angela. Jump in for Pete's sake. But to you, Howard Bloom, it's not so much the evidence is deficient. What about the lack of certain other evidence? In other words, we know he ordered that K-bar knife and sheath because we have the Amazon record that

he ordered it. And they probably have a search history trying to find just the right knife. We have the exact same sheath at the crime Okay. So why would I get rid of one of them? Why would one of them, other than my 92 year old mother putting it down the disposal in the kitchen, other than that, why would I get rid of a knife? We've got the lack of that knife. What did he do with it and why? We know he ordered that Dickies, like a repairman's uniform. We have the receipt. We know he did it. Where is it? Why did he get rid of it? So the lack of certain evidence must be taken into account. But my question to you redirecting is a stumbling block. How did he do it? One against four. And how did he get away with it? Where's the evidence?

What we're missing is specifics. But what you have to see is that all the pieces of the evidence, when they're merged together, form a very coherent whole. And in all the evidence that you cited there's one piece that you've left out after he was arrested they did a cheek swab of the of his DNA this cheek swab taken directly from him matched the DNA and taken from the button of the knife sheath so all these specific pieces form what a coherent hole and the defense will try to impugn, as you've said, the DNA. They'll try to impugn the telephone triangulations. But when it all comes together, the evidence, I feel, is overwhelming. And that's why they're so concerned about the death penalty. That's also why I believe they're trying to move the venue. Not that they think they'll get a better trial elsewhere in the state. They're

trying to buy time. This is a very cynical strategy. And another thing about Howard Bloom's book, When the Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders, he and I got a ton of hate mail online the last time he discussed his book. Let me tell you something. He didn't just make all that up. He sourced everything he wrote in that book. Now, if you disagree with him, fine. But this is not fiction that he wrote in When the Night Comes Falling. There's an unarticulated premise in all of this. A lot of people from Hollywood came into the town of Moscow, a lot of other authors. There's a lot of money being thrown around. A lot of people were offered deals. I thought about giving money to people involved in the case, but as a New York

Times reporter, ultimately it didn't sit right with me. I just didn't want to roll that way. But now people feel that if I'm telling this story, they are losing their business opportunity. Oh, so the genesis of some of your hate mail. Okay. Stephanie Pitcher, joining me, high profile lawyer in this jurisdiction of Idaho and Utah, by the way, Stephanie, the, the import of what's missing. It's not just, okay, my mom stuck one of my brand new knives down the disposal of what's missing. It's not just, okay, my mom stuck one of my brand new knives down the disposal of the kitchen.

That knife didn't prove anything. The things that are missing out of Coburg's apartment are probative. They prove something. So why are those things missing and nothing else is missing? Why the knife

that he just bought on Amazon? Why is it missing? Why is the Dickies uniform that he just bought? We've got the receipt. Why is it missing? It's not like I'm missing one of his old notebooks from the eighth grade. That proves nothing. The items missing are probative, Stephanie. Sure. I mean, I think that he this was not a random attack or a random murder. He thought this out. And the evidence shows that the evidence shows that he this was not a random attack or a random murder he thought this out and the evidence shows that the evidence shows that he turned off his phone as he was driving i mean as he approached the scene um he i think he has taken several steps not only to plan this but to also cover it up and that's what the evidence i think suggests at least what the public has brian

coberger's defense files for a trial venue change, citing extensive ongoing and inflammatory publicity. Will the motion be successful? Legal battle brewing as we go to air. Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Dr. Angie, I find those missing pieces of evidence very probative to me. I mean, it could be argued, hey, where's the murder weapon? And my response is, hey, why did he throw away a brand new knife? Where did that go?

Where did that brand new uniform go? And more. Explain the thinking behind that. Nancy, it speaks to his state of mind through this. And it speaks to the fact that he knew what he was doing and he knew that he had to get away with it. And he had, and as some of the previous guests have said, he planned this from start to finish. And his ultimate mistake was leaving that knife sheath at the scene. And that's what's going to get him. But this shows that he planned every ounce of this.

We wait as justice unfolds in the Brian Koberger prosecution. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.