Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - BRYAN KOHBERGER "I'M INNOCENT" WANTS TO "TAKE BACK GUILTY PLEA"

Episode Date: July 30, 2026

Bryan Kohberger says he is innocent in the murders of four University of Idaho students, and wants to withdraw his guilty plea to go to trial.  Kohberger is serving four consecutive life sentences.  In a written statement,  Kohberger declared: “My actual innocence is my truth, and the plea, hinged on by false promises and blatant disinformation, MUST be withdrawn.”  He has filed a petition for post‑conviction relief  to have his guilty plea rescinded.   Kohberger claims that  he was coerced into pleading guilty, misled about the con  consequences of the plea, told false promises about life in prison and death row conditions, and  exculpatory evidence was withheld.  Despite his early agreement to forego appeals, under Idaho law Kohberger  can still seek post‑conviction relief if ineffective assistance of counsel or other constitutional violations can be proven.     Joining Nancy Grace today:    Kristi Goncalves  - Mother of victim Kaylee Goncalves  Steve Goncalves  -  Father of victim Kaylee Goncalves,  New Foundation: "Murder Has a Name"  Website:  www.MurderHasAName.com Neama Rahmani  - Former federal prosecutor turned trial attorney, President of West Coast Trial Lawyers, Author: “Harvard to Hashtag”, WestCoastTrialLawyers.com, INSTAGRAM: @Neamarahmani, TWITTER: @NeamaRahmani    Dr. Bethany Marshall  -  Psychoanalyst,  Author: "Deal Breaker," featured on "Paris in Love" on Peacock and "The Valley, Persian Style" on Bravo,  Netflix and Hulu ,  Host  "On The Couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall," Website: drbethanymarshall.com, Instagram FB & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter:@DrBethanyLive Joseph Scott Morgan  - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", YouTube Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", @JoScottForensic Nate Eaton -  News Director, East Idaho News, Emmy-nominated journalist.  Host of 'Courtroom Insider' on Youtube Dave Mack - Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories'  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Send it their way, the quick way. Exchange rates apply. Download the app or visit Western Union.com and send money today. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Bombshell tonight. Four-time convicted killer, Brian Coburger. Do you remember the four beautiful, sleeping University of Idaho students that were slaughtered in their beds?

That Brian Coburger tonight says, I'm innocent. And he wants to take back his guilty plea? Whoa. Brian Coburger now says they tricked me into pleading guilty. I know I stood up in court and I said I did it, but I didn't do it. And that's my truth. He actually fixed his mouth to say it's my truth. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.

What in the H-E-E-Double L? It is despicable and I cannot believe we're having to talk about him now. Four-time convicted killer Brian Coburger now claims he's innocent. Because he's saying basically they lied to it. Tell me that. One of our, one of the roommates who's passed out and she was drunk last night and should not wake me up. Okay. Oh, and they saw some man in their house last night. Yeah. Hi, just seeing. And are you with the patient? Okay, I need someone to keep the phone. Stop passing it around. Can I just tell you what happened pretty much? What is going on currently? Is someone passed out right now?

I don't really know what pretty much at 4 a.m. Okay, I need to know what's going on right now if someone is passing. out. Can you find that out? Yeah, I'll come. Come on, but you've got to go check. But we have to. They were not passed out. They were all dead at the hands

of Brian Coburger. And tonight, to further twists the families. He says he's innocent and he wants a trial. And you know what I say to that? Mrs. Gonsalves, bring it

on. I agree with him about one thing, Christy. Brian Coburger says in his handwritten petition, Justice was not served. True words were never spoken. Justice was not served because he needs the death penalty. Absolutely. So he's right. There's one phrase in this whole petition that is accurate. Okay, with me, you know them well. They are the founders of murder has a name. This is in their beautiful daughter, Kelly Gonzalez's memory in her honor. She was murdered by Brian Koberger.

And they are taking that pain and transforming it into something good, raising money for DNA kits to be handled and processed to stop killers and get them off the street. before more victims fall prey. Christy is with us. Steve Gonzalez is with us.

Christy, when did you find out? Brian Coburg, or that P-O-S technical legal term, says, I'm innocent. I was tricked. I love this part, Christy, that he was misled about life behind bars. Surprise, jail ain't what is cracked up to be. Yeah. He figured that out, didn't he?

Yeah. When did you find out about this? I found out pretty early on, about an hour before it started busting at the seams on the media. Steve had called me and I was in the middle of a Zoom meeting for murder as a name and I was like, Steve's telling me, call me right away, call me now and I'm like, I got to go. Like, he doesn't say that. And I called them and he told me and I was like, you know, what is happening? So it took us a minute to find out what exactly his allegations that he was having and the reasons for it.

But when we heard, we were like, the judge asked you every single one of those questions, you know. So were you coerced? Were you promised anything? Or you on drugs, you know, and everything. And I mean, it's a plea deal. I think it's pretty straightforward. I think the average IQ person can understand what a plea. deal is. It's not something super complicated.

Hold on. I've got to get to seek on the office, but I just have to ask Nima Romani guys. When this first broke, I immediately got on the horn with Romani. Why? He knows what he's talking about and we hashed it through. Neema Romani, former federal prosecutor, turned trial lawyer, president of the former president of the West Coast trial lawyers, author of Harvard to hashtag. You can find him at West Coast Trail Lawyers.com. Nema.

This is doable. After you and I talked, I researched the law again, and it confirmed what you and I had talked about. Let me get my notes. Garza v. Idaho, straight out of Idaho, and that is the Supremes.

You remember at the time they kept saying, he's giving up his right to appeal. this plea deal means it's over forever. I'm like, no, it's not. I don't care what he says. He can always appeal under the Sixth Amendment. There's always an argument to be made that he was tricked. He was hoodwinked. He didn't know what was happening. Ineffective assistance of counsel. Yes, but no, that's what they told the victims in court. That was BS. Then we called it, and I'm calling it again. Yes, he can do this. He can appeal his guilty plea. Then he'll be Lockhart, also the Supreme.

about how you can't reverse a guilty plea. But practically speaking, Neymah, what the hay is going on? Yeah, he's got to basically pigeonhole this petition into one of really four legal arguments. He's got to argue that the plea wasn't knowing and voluntary. I think it's going to be tough because obviously we all heard the plea colloquy, right? It was knowing. Neymah, he's getting his Ph.D. and criminology.

I think that's going to be the toughest one. It was knowing. Next. That's out. I wrote it in. I'm marking it out. Yeah, so let's put that away. The second is if he's actually innocent. Obviously, that's not going to fly either. There's no way the state is going to consider that. But that's what happened with that. I just choked.

That didn't go down very well. Okay, we can count on actual innocence too. Okay, that's right? Give me your third choice. The third is prosecutorial misconduct, right? And of course the state is never going to concede that, that they withheld Brady information or something that was impeachment. They didn't comply with their obligations. There's no way the state's going to concede that.

So then you're really left with the last one, which is the ineffective assistance of counsel, right? That's something Anne Taylor said or did that was either. Nema, Nema, that's it. That's where they're going. because from what I can gather from this raggedy petition, he's claiming Brady, or Brady v. Maryland, exculpatory material evidence that would tend to prove him innocent or could prove him innocent. It could be something as simple as a line of cross-examination of a state's witness. And if the defense didn't know about it, then that could have made a difference in whether the jury believe the witness.

There's all sorts of permutations about what is exculpatory. He seems to be claiming that the defense withheld Brady material from their own client, that he didn't understand all of the exculpatory evidence. He's going with ineffective and the SOD. Some of the dude did it. That's where he's going. So then the question is, what are his lawyers in the state going to say? I can't see any world where the prosecution is going to admit to withholding Brady evidence.

So the question is, did his lawyers not provide it to him? Are they going to confess error? If they do and they fall on the sword, then potentially we would have to start this over. The question is, though, I don't think his lawyers are going to do that. This was an amazing deal for him. They saved his life. No. That's what.

Mm-mm. Mm-mm. If they think there is a way to get him a new trial, I've seen the best lawyers in town going court and go, okay, I was ineffective, to help their client. Were they ineffective? No. were not. But they'll say it in a further bid to help their client. And you know what? I want to happen. I want him to get his wish. Straight up to Steve Gonsolvis. This is Kelly Gonsolves's father.

Co-founder of murder has a name. Please look it up. Steve, I want the state. Of course, you've got to have an independent prosecutor. You can't have that bag of bones up there. trying to try this case. That's out. That's over. But I want them to give him his wish. You want any trial? Fine. We have regretted the plea ever since we did it. And here's our chance. Why can't we do that, Steve? I don't know. What do we get? Like 90% of capital cases go out on a plea and we never make case law. I would love for this to be case law in Idaho. And, you know, we've got the firing squad. Let it be. I'm very confident. And the evidence. He's an idiot. I mean, the amount of, you've got to see the way that they had his vehicle mapped out with all those cameras.

It was going to be powerful. They were literally going to be able to prove that the phone and that car were traveling together and tie it all. So, yeah, I'll stand by. Let's put oils in him. You know, let's shoot him. He's done. Please, please, please take him to trial. Give him his wish.

Straight out to Nate Eaton. He is the news director at East Idaho News. Emmy nominated journalist, host of courtroom insider on YouTube. He has been on this case from the beginning. Nate Eaton, is this guy actually claiming fabricated horror that they showed him a photo of inside a death row cell and said, you better plead?

The guy is getting his PhD in criminology. Nobody made him. do anything, did they? No, but what's interesting to me, Nancy, is you talk about how he says prison isn't what he expected. In his statement, he said the public is demanding the truth. I'm curious to know which public out there he's talking about, but there's unanswered questions with each new piece of evidence unsealed. Steve mentioned the car, the surveillance footage of his white elantra that was caught on camera at the home within minutes of, you know, when before the students were killed an after. What about the K-bar knife sheet? Remember, that was left behind and DNA tracked to

Brian Coburger. Not only that, he'd purchased it on Amazon, a K-bar knife sheet. So the evidence that we have seen has led directly to Brian Coburger. I don't know what other evidence he's talking about. He didn't detail it in his statement. I had to look at the stat last night, Nate Eaton, it was 5.37 octillion to one likelihood that it was anybody else's DNA on the murder weapon knife sheath. Eating well shouldn't be complicated, but somehow it turns into recipes, prep, cleanup, and half your Sunday gone. Factors solves all that. These are fresh, ready-to-eat meals. designed by dieticians, delivered to your door, and ready in just minutes. No prep, no cleanup, no excuses. And it's not just about convenience. You're getting real food, balanced nutrition,

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straight to their G-Cash wallet. Oh, and you always get a $0 transfer fee on your first online send. Send it their way, the quick way. Exchange rates apply. Download the app or visit Western Union.com and send money today. Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

Now, it's my understanding Hold on Joe Scott, here I come. It's my understanding. Koeberger is stating that there was a, quote, clump of hair in one of the victim's hands and that it suggested another defendant. What I've read elsewhere, and I'm going to confirm this with Christy and Steve Gonsolvis, there was one hair that was found that

belonged to somebody else. I don't know where that one hair was, but we all know it was the party house. You got four coeds living together. I would be shocked if there weren't parties at their house. There would be something wrong if there weren't parties at their house. So there's another hair. But his DNA is on the knife sheath. His phone was quieted. He ordered the K-bar knife. He was out stargazing in that area at the time of the murders. He was the one stalking them over and over and over again. The evidence is overwhelming. So what is the truth about the hair? He's claiming a clump of hair that belonged to somebody else in the victim's hand, but I'm reading the defense forensic scientist said there was one hair that may have belonged to somebody else.

So I have talked to the lead investigator about this specifically and from ISP. And I asked when it came out in the book and he said, absolutely not. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. He said Ethan's hand had fallen behind the bed. And, you know, obviously blood ran down his arm. It's sticky. The floor you can't imagine was not that clean. I mean, you could, behind any bed, it's probably not that clean, you know.

And debris, dust bunnies, dirt, all kinds of sorts of stuff, you know, stuck to his hand. He was, you know, it stuck to his hand. They packaged him up. I don't, you know, they took him out of the house. And, you know. They transported him to the medical examiner. Yes. And when they, you know, were looking for evidence.

and whatnot, this is what he had in his hand or stuck to his hand. It was by no means a clump of hair that the book claims, saying that it was pulled out from the root of somebody's hair. This is basically gossip, a desperate attempt to find something when you have no evidence, the backs, anything that you've tried to lay out. I mean, he has no alibi, he has nothing. So yeah, he's gonna look for one photo with one piece of hair and tried to say, what about that?

Well, the guy wrote a book about it and made a big deal about it. Everybody freaked out about it. It was like, oh, my gosh, the clump of hair in Ethan's hand. And I immediately called. And he was just like, what? And I said, well, this is what this book says. He goes, ridiculous. Absolutely false.

Okay, you know what? I just hope they bring that guy on the stand and quote his book on cross-examination and say, what clump? Why did you say that? Okay. Let me just ask you all straight out. You said you wanted this to go to trial, as do I. Do you still feel the same way?

Christy and Stee. I do. I mean, I would love because I think that it would just stop so much of these people just running their mouths in this conspiracy theory. At this point, but this much time gone by, I mean, I'd have to, you know, put myself in that state of mind. again, which is not an easy state of mind to put yourself in, that you're moving. I mean, because we would have to physically move for three months. I mean, we have animals, you know, we just can't travel back and forth.

So, you know, we would have to make those family adjustments. But, yeah, I mean, if that's what it comes down to, we're all for it. Well, what about the possibilities, Steve Gonsolves, of the death penalty? You know, the firing squad, that thing. Yeah, honor the victims. Before people died from a low life, that wasn't even a member of our community. A complete stranger came into our community and killed people while they go to sleep. If that doesn't, you know, invoke some kind of like prosecutor passion to actually uphold the law, then he probably doesn't have been able to.

So, yeah, I'm all for it. Yeah, you know, that's what they, that's what they decide to do. We'll be there. We'll support the case and all the people did all the hard work. But what do you want, Steve? I mean, it's one thing for me to say, yes, I want a trial because I want to hear the truth. I want the world to know the truth. And we didn't know the truth with that pathetic showing in court at the time of the plea.

Your daughter was the only one with the to stand up and speak the truth. Okay? So I'd like a prosecutor that has a similar set of... Right? Can we find one of those? I'd like to see how this plays out with a real prosecutor and hear the facts. Tell me what you were saying, Steve, about what was caught on video that maybe the rest of the world doesn't know about regarding his car and the phone and the car traveling together. Yeah, people can actually do this if they understand how AI is.

Just go in and tell it. Take every time that this car is on camera and then cross-correlated with the path that is known, and it will do a pretty good job of showing you what they went on. But when you go back and you can fail the times and the stamps and what he's on there, they pinned that all the way down. Once he turned his phone back on, they knew exactly where it was. And they said his device was traveling on this road, you know, through this camera. That was definitely him, you know.

So whether. All the way back to stadium. It was somebody else. It was somebody else that had his device and his car traveling. So. And when was that, Christy? When was his phone identified traveling along with the car? When?

At 448, his car turns on. He turns on an app, a map application. At that point, they get further details in exactly where he was. So you cross correlate that with the last time he's on there at 421 or 420, depending on what you're going off. You can say, okay, what path? I think it was 27 minutes. Where would that get him to? And then you define that 448 where he turns it on and they match up.

It was almost exactly. They match up. The time frame. And so it is him with his GPS and his phone, the night of the murders, going to the murder scene. We know it was in. So all this BS about, you didn't get a tag number. We got better than a visual on a tag number. We have his GPS.

Explain it one more time and put it in slow-mo. I want to make sure I understand it. Steve. Okay. So he's seeing on the camera called one, one one two turning right and it's a time stamped at 420 maybe 421 leaving the scene yeah he's taking a right leaving the scene he turns his phone on at 448 so then they go look at that as a source of truth and say okay where we've seen him here last and then we see him down here

that's where he's registered on the cell tellers they do the map and the draft the time 27 minutes it actually gets him to exactly where he's turning his phone on. Nima Romani, former federal prosecutor, extraordinary attorney, how can I get this thing to trial? Can the state join with Keiberg and go, you want a new trial? Fine, you got it. Put it on the calendar. Can that happen or can the judge stop it?

The judge can stop it, but I think the easiest path than you nailed it is for the defense to submit a declaration saying that they were ineffective. Look, it's the Strickland test, right? There's a manifest injustice. We didn't tell our client this information. We misled our client. If they put that in writing, it's a done deal,

but they got to fall on the sword. And you're right, maybe they want to do that for their client. There's really nothing the judge or the state can do to stop it because we don't know what communications they had with Koeberger. And if they confess that type of error, then it's game over. and the judge has to grant the motion. And then I'll go to one of the other 10 or 12 other death penalty qualified lawyers in the state of Idaho.

It can't be them defending the case going forward. That is the cleanest, the easiest path. The other way, like you said, is if the state admits some sort of error. I don't think they're going to do that. I think that would also get it done. He's not really claiming that. He's claiming, okay, wait a minute. Name it you mean this one.

work legally, quote, my actual innocence is my truth. And the plea hinged on false promises. And quote, all caps must be withdrawn. So he was misled about job opportunities behind bars. Okay, I haven't seen that in an appellate record yet. Jail ain't what is cracked up to be. Give me a new trial. I want out. Okay, that's where this. is going. Listen to this. There was tons of DNA, by the way. I don't know why it's been reported. It was trace DNA.

It was not. It was tons of DNA. It was certainty in the quality of the DNA. There was certainty in the analysis. And there was certainty that there was more than enough information in that tree to get to a person. Those are two of the foremost DNA experts in the world,

the Middleman's, and that's from our friends at Fox News at CrimeCon. Okay, Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, before you get started, I want to give you, I know you don't need one, but a little reality check

about what this case is about. So I'm going through some of Kaylee's things and just sweatshirt that she was wearing that night. And in the pocket is her grub truck number 78 ticket. It's the first thing that I really. found that I've been looking for.

It was in the top of a box. And then when I looked in the pocket and I found that ticket, I was... It just takes you back to those hours. Those hours right before. I had no idea what was going to happen to them. That's Christy from the Gonzávez family, Facebook. Joe Scott. What are we going to do, man?

God bless y'all. I can't even plumb the depths of this. getting back to the to the evidence at hand i got to tell you something and going back to what steve and christie had said earlier and uh let the hide come with hairs what i say if he wants a fight bring it on because going back to what that clip that you showed of our friends uh david and christin at othrum i felt all along there was going to be a just a plethora of DNA evidence and here's why I'm going to throw a number out to you that we don't use this number a lot when we're talking about these four precious lives okay

we talk about the individual injuries you know per person but nancy I want to give you this number 150 150 injuries we're talking about in total now that's kind of an approximation because the violence involved in this case. You have what were referred to or what I would refer to as communicating injuries. So you have such a concentration of injuries that you'll get this kind of cross pattern when you can't delineate it. And of course, you know, this certainly happened with Kaylee. There's just certain things that you can't interpret specifically because of the level of violence. But 150, Nancy, just let that sink in. How are you going to engage? and this kind of violence and not have transfer of DNA and you taking on DNA from an individual

I can only imagine where else they're sourcing this from points of contact we go back and you know my my old adage is always lecard every contact leaves a trace and that principle holds true here it's it's solid as the day is long and so when you think about the violence that was exacted here Yeah, I think that there is a solid underpinning of evidence here. And again, if he, you know, if he feels froggy, let's jump, baby, let's roll. Because I want to see this evidence. And going back from a prosecutorial standpoint, I want to see somebody that's actually got the guts to go forward, stand up and accuse him and direct him to offer up an explanation for what happened. Of course, we didn't see that because there was no damn allocution.

that was not required of him, he gets to live on easy street and that doesn't. Eating well shouldn't be complicated, but somehow it turns into recipes, prep, clean-up, and half your Sunday gone. Factor solves all that. These are fresh, ready-to-eat meals designed by dietitians, delivered to your door, and ready in just minutes. No prep, no cleanup, no excuses. And it's not just about convenience. You're getting real food, balanced nutrition, and zero-articions. artificial stuff. Meals that help you stay on track for all of your goals without the grind of doing it all yourself. Grilled chicken, roasted veggies, steak plates, postables, they taste like something you get in a restaurant, but they come out of your microwave in two minutes flat. If time, cost, or effort have been holding you back from eating better, Factor just took those

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Oh, and you always get a $0 transfer fee on your first online send. Send it their way, the quick way. Exchange rates apply. Download the app or visit Western Union.com and send money today. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Nima Romani, is there any way this can happen? How dare he, after all he has put everybody through? It's all about me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. I don't like jail.

This wasn't what it's cracked up to be. I was lied to. I was mistreated. Every sentence starts with I. Is there a way to give him what he wants? Because I'd like to put it three inches right up his tailpipe. Listen, I would love a trial too, just like everyone else. I think there's no world where he's actually innocent.

He will be convicted. He will be sentenced to death. But I don't think it's going to happen, Nancy. This is a final judgment. the law wants to keep these judgments final. We can't have every criminal defendant claiming their innocent. Even when both parties don't want it to be final? Both parties can demand a trial.

You can't just enter a population. I just gave you a U.S. Supreme Court that can undo a guilty plea. All this business about a plea is unappealable. That's crap. That's not true. I can't believe they even said that to start with you. They not have a law book? Well, listen, there has to be a constitutional violation.

So if the parties agree that there's a constitutional violation, of course, but they can't just enter into a stipulation. It's not like just putting a piece of evidence in or saying, hey, we want to do over. There has to be a legal basis to unwind this. Absent a constitutional violation, we're not going to be able to get there. It's not enough for the prosecution and the defense to say, you know what, we've changed our mind. We want to do over. This was a bad deal because the millions of people. You're thinking the best bet is ineffective, ineffective assistance of counsel.

Because actual innocence is not going to work. Not knowing and voluntary, that's not going to work. The condition is in prison. That didn't happen. So all we're left with is ineffective. That's all we're left with. So unless Ann Taylor. Well, you know what?

He's crazy like a fox because that's what he's claiming in this petition, that his lawyers did not give him the law. whole truth that they withheld exculpatory evidence from him to get him to plead guilty. He's saying it was all a fabrication. Is that what he's saying, Nate Eaton? It's all a big fabrication. It was a lie. That's what he's saying, Nancy. One interesting thing is the attorney general for the state of Idaho came out and said, my office stands ready to do whatever is necessary to ensure justice is fully carried out. He didn't say there's no chance that this will advance, that if the judge denies it. It sounds like the Attorney General is ready and willing to help.

So let's say a prosecutor from the Attorney General's office steps in and says, okay, we'll prosecute the case from the state level. And then Kohlberger, who's going to represent him if this proceeds? Is he going to represent himself? He's writing his own legal briefs. Will he be appointed yet? No, no, no. There are plenty of lawyers that would do it just for the PR. You know, I appreciate what the state AG said, Labrador, but where the hay was the AG when this plea was going down.

Okay, when everybody across the country was screaming, including the Gonzalves family, where were they then? You know what? If they're going to come late to the party, great. Come on. But another thing this does is it opens up a possibility the feds might step in because that plea is undone. The feds could jump in, Steve Gonzalez, they could. We've always had speaks and talks about the feds doing that. And, you know, now that they're pro death penalty before they were kind of wishy-washy,

and they gave a bunch of, you know, petitions so people didn't have to be on the death penalty, they got them off. So yeah, I would love to see a real prosecuting, you know, service that we could get. Yeah. We've often wondered why it wasn't federal, but when this happened, it was under Biden administration, and the FBI told us then, They could prosecute, but they could not prosecute for death penalty. So we were like, just leave it with Bill Thompson then, leave it with Laetal County. So obviously things have changed, and they're no longer under the Biden administration, and the FBI can pursue the death penalty.

So that would be great. Best of the best. Joining us now, Dr. Bethany Marshall. We're now in Psycho Analyst out of the L.A. jurisdiction. She is the author of Deal Breakers. You can see her on Hulu, on Peacock, on Netflix, brand new hit podcast on the couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall. You can find her at Dr. Bethany Marshall.com. Okay, hit at Bethany. Thoughts. Well, Mr. and Mrs. Consolvis, I loved her most recent Facebook post about the fact that Brian Coburger is a mosquito you can't seem

to squash. But you know, sadly, it's worse. My clinical experience leads me to believe that you are only the person, the only people he can victimize right now. In other words, he's a killing machine. He likely had other victims on the radar. Likely, the family of the existing four were on the radar, meaning you were in his, on his radar. And, you know, he has too much time, a free access to a law library. He's in solitary confinement. So how does he act out his murderous impulses without a victim right in front of him, without access to future victims? What does he do? He lashes out at you. That's worse than a mosquito. That's somebody who, if he was not behind bars, would maybe have you in his sights. Dr. Bethany, I want your analysis. He's basically saying, my defense team,

they all lied to me. They fabricated this whole thing, and they misled me about life behind bars. Translation, guess what? G. L.A. like what is cracked up to be, Dr. Bethany. Well, our most strongest impulse is the survival instinct, right? So he wants to survive. He wants to be out. He's delusional. He thinks he might get out. He's a criminal law, you know, student, Ph.D. student.

And so he thinks he's above the law, and he can twist the law. but I think primarily it's all self-referential. And you know, Nancy, interestingly, he is throwing his defense team under the bus, which shows me how dispensable everybody is to him. His mother and father now have to come into court. They have cried in previous appearances and when he's been in court in various cases, appearances.

And now he's subjecting his family to torture. as well as the Consolvis family and all the other families. So they're dispensable to his own family. Would they have been on the radar as well? It's hard to know. Okay. Okay. Okay.

I need someone to stop passing the phone around because I've talked to four different people. Hey, sorry, they just gave me the phone. Is she breathing? Hello? Is she breathing? No. Okay. We're clear.

Side first. I do with the front door. back entry I was going to start taping it all off. Brian's creeping outside off. Okay. And she ran downstairs because she saw someone, just ran downstairs. And I called for her name, but I jumped up and locked my door because I was so scared. And then I heard some in the bathroom when I heard her crying.

And I heard some guys say that you're going to be okay. I'm going to help you. And I kept calling her name, but she wasn't answering. And then I opened the door for a second, and I saw this guy. From our friends at Law and Crime. Christy, while we are bandying back and forth the possibilities of a trial, that is what happened. We may have a chance at justice, Christy.

Absolutely. And that's why we asked for concessions. We knew that this was going to happen. We actually foretell the whole thing, and people looked at us like we were crazy, and we're like, well, we're talking about a psychopath that literally has a search history, on his phone saying psychopath, paranoia, I think people are after me, all that stuff. Phone being tapped. He's a psychopath. So of course he's going to try to do everything in his

possible power to try to drag us through the mud and put us through all this. And I just needed a prosecutor who just do concessions, just a couple, man. All he needed to do was get just a couple and we just all would have went away. I mean, we did want the trial. But when it when we found out it was a plea, we begged, we have emails, we have phone calls, we had meetings, we were begging for some sort of concessions. Can we at least ask this? Can we at least have them, you know, admit to this or ask them where this is? And they were just like, no. We went so far to tell our audience on our Facebook to call Hippler, you are from Idaho, be respectful and call and say, hey, decline this plea deal. That's the only option we have.

according to our legal counsel, that's all we could do. The judge could have said. And to that, he got so upset about it. He said, I'm going to turn each one of these people to the police. He yelled at us in court at the plea deal. He yelled at us. And I was like, you're an elected official. And said that we, these are voting matters.

We interrupted the day of court and people weren't able to get their jobs done. The receptionists weren't able to answer their phones. Their emails were full. Their voicemails were full. and it wasn't like I was privy to his email address or the phone number and that I gave out. We were just like, contact the judge, contact the court. He's an elected official, so it is what it is. And yeah, we got in the beginning, if you listen to the plea deal and he's chewing somebody out, it's us.

I'm not saying it is what it is. I'm saying take the case to trial for once prosecutor do the wrong. right thing for the Koeberger victims family. Tell me something, Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author, Star of Bodybags with Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator. Joe Scott, just tell me, we can get a conviction, right, if we take this thing to trial, right? Yeah, let's think about the forensic evidence from the perspective of engineering. You have a framework that's laid out here. Okay, and I'm not saying that it is absolutely perfect.

There is nothing in our world that is perfect. However, if you look from an evidentiary standpoint, from a physical evidence standpoint, from a digital standpoint, it's all there. It's there. That you just have to have somebody that has the intestinal fortitude to hang everything on this structure, to build it out, to push it forward.

That's why I said earlier, If he wants to do this, do it. Absolutely do it. But again, we can only do so much at a crime scene and a lab at the M.E.'s office. All we can do is just offer up our findings. And still, it baffles me to this day after all of these years that they did not have the ability within themselves, to call upon themselves to say, hey, we've got a slam dunk here.

We're going to move this forward. For some reason, they decided to go down this road, but it still exists, Nancy. All of this hard work still exist. All they have to do is take those first steps. And maybe even more, Joe Scott, because you know how evidence and witnesses seem to come out of the woodwork. Yep. Once it's all said and done or so they think. Okay, Dr. Bethany Marshall, he sees this.

as justice, getting a trial. He's not happy with life behind bars. Isn't there some kind of clinical name for this guy? A selfish, self-absorbed, fist criteria for a psychopath, not only in that he is creating some sense of excitement by going to the law library and then writing up these scribbled handwritten and also, you know, text briefs, but the fact that he continues to have access to, victims through these filings. That's what I think is, what I really want to put front and center is this person is homicidal. This person compulsively wants to kill. He wants to draw blood. If he is denied access to that, what is he going to do? He's going to kill and draw blood in other ways. It's just like an alcoholic who is told they can never drink again. So, they start ordering mocktails or they romanticize the drink. He's romanticizing the process because it is exciting. Psychopaths, they suffer from under arousal and internal emptiness. They cannot find

joy in the small things in life. They only find joys in highly stimulating situation, which is usually killing. If he can't be stimulated in that way, he's stimulating himself through self-pity and preoccupation with the victim's families. Nate Eaton, News Director, East Idaho News. Nate, what happens now? Has the judge even bothered to put a hearing on the calendar? As of today, there's no hearing on the calendar, but I would imagine the judge will have to hold a hearing on this. Koberger will appear in court, likely with his counsel, that he, had all along. If they decide to say they're ineffective counsel, as we've discussed on this program today, then he could be appointed new attorneys. The judge could take it under advisement,

issue a ruling, say no, there's no grounds here. But I imagine Coburger will take this all the way to the Supreme Court. I could see him continually filing these things. If a new trial date is state, is set, Nancy, I think it's going to be at least a year out, maybe two years out. It's a death penalty case, you have to line things out. So this is something that, unfortunately, it's going to take months, perhaps years. Okay, fine. I can do that. Final word, Christy and Steve. Well, we're just going to have to see what happened. We're just going to have to see what the judge does, be there at the court appearances like we were before, and follow it through. I mean, all we were able to do before was just roll with the puns.

And that's all we're going to be able to do now. I mean, it's, it's, it's all in the judge's hands. And, and obviously, the council at this point, if they're going to say, yes, we were ineffective or the prosecution and state say, yes, we lied about exculpatory evidence. It's completely out of our hands and all we could do is show up. And, and we will continue to do that. Yeah, I hope his day of manipulating all these court processes come to an end. were unsealing things, things were slowly coming out. I hope that doesn't come to an end.

We all deserve the truth. And when you have a prisoner who sits there is able to manipulate things and they start rewarding him by not unsealing, then they're making, they're making a standard for others to follow. So let's hope. And I do want to say that I'm sorry to the state of Idaho, to the community that, you know, as taxpayers,

that this is a- $8 million. been so expensive and just continues to run. And I see a lot of people say, you know what, we don't want to, you know, end it because of the cost. I understand that. But on the other hand, you know, this is our child. And if it was your child, you know, you might feel a little differently. But we do understand that. You know, we don't want to dismiss that. But how much is your child worth? Yeah. You know, there's no dollar amount that you can put on that. Everyone whines about our tax dollars being misspent, finally.

Our tax dollars would be spent for a good cause. Nothing to complain about there. We wait as justice unfolds God willing, finally, in this case. Thank you to our guest, but especially to you being with us tonight. Nancy Grace signing off, but I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend. This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed human.