Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Bryan Kohberger Keeps Damning 'Souvenir' From Idaho Quadruple Student Slay?

Episode Date: April 12, 2023

An unsealed search warrant states that six weeks after the Idaho student murders, officers found ID cards connected to the victims in Bryan Kohberger’s possession.   Reportedly, the cards were found during a search of one of Bryan Kohberger’s homes. but where were they exactly?  Initial reports on the search warrant say the ID cards were “inside glove, inside box," leading some to believe that the ID cards were found inside the glovebox of Bryan Kohberger's car. Police would not confirm the report because of the gag order in the case.    Dailymail.com reporter Caitlyn Becker says, however, based on her review of the search warrant, the ID cards had been hidden away in Kohberger's parent's home. Becker reports the cards were found "inside a glove, inside a box" in the Albrightsville home, suggesting Kohberger had deliberately hidden the cards. Police also believe they have evidence that could connect Kohlberger to what police are viewing as cyberstalking of someone from the Moscow residence.   Joining Nancy Grace Today: Mark Tate - Attorney, The Tate Law Group Dr. Jorey L. Krawczyn - Psychologist, Faculty Saint Leo University; Consultant with Blue Wall Institute; Author: "Operation S.O.S." Johnny Naccarato - Fmr Sheriff's Sergeant & Crime Reconstruction and Forensics Team (CRAFT) Supervisor; TWITTER: @TheJohnnyLaw, YOUTUBE: The Johnny Law  Chris McDonough-Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective & Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room"  Dr. Michelle DuPre- Former Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff's Department; Author: "Homicide Investigation Field Guide" & "Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide;" Forensic Consultant Caitlyn Becker- Senior Reporter for Dailymail.com; Twitter: @caitlynbecker See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Did Brian Koberger, the alleged killer of four beautiful University of Idaho students, actually keep a souvenir of the murders? I'm a big scrapbooker, and I not only put photos of every event right now, I'm still stuck on Christmas of 2017. I have church bulletins. I have Christmas cards.

All sorts of things I put in with the photos. Is that how he viewed the murders? Like a concert he attended or his junior senior prom or some other big event in his life that he actually kept mementos, a souvenir, so to speak, that amidst an alleged internal affairs investigation that could threaten the state's case as well as the possible demolition of the crime scene? We just saw in the Alex Murdaugh case that the jury went back to the scene of the crime. If that home, that house where the students were murdered is demolished, will that somehow result in a problem for the prosecution? All this swirling as news continues to develop day by day, literally, in the prosecution of Brian Koberger in a quadruple slay case.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. First of all, I want to talk about what was discovered, the alleged memento kept by Brian Koberger take a listen to Tracy Walder former CIA and FBI special agent if he kept sort of a souvenir really it points to just that that he for his ego purposes wanted to keep a souvenir of this crime wanted to keep a souvenir of what he believed that he had successfully done. And I always think a lot of times

with criminals that I've seen, it's always their ego that gets them in the end. I, you know, I do think that he was very confident in what he had done and I believe that he felt he hadn't left any evidence behind, but it's always their ego that's there undoing and I believed he wanted a trophy,

if you will, of the crime that he had committed. With me in all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. But first, I want to go out to senior reporter for DailyMail.com, Caitlin Becker, who has been on the Koeberger prosecution from the very, very beginning. Caitlin, thank you for being with us. What exactly are we talking about? We're talking about an ID here, Nancy. Sorts had told News Nation that Koberger was found with an ID connected to someone involved in the murders. They weren't specific about a victim, but that's what we're assuming, that it's an ID belonging to a victim, in his possession after the murders. Nancy, there has been a lot of debate about where this ID is found. I tend to disagree with a lot of the reporting, but it was collected

by police during the search of his parents' property and his car in Albrightville, Pennsylvania. Well, that certainly narrows it down, Caitlin, because it's got to either be hidden away, squirreled away in the home or somewhere in the car. Now, let's think this through. We know the facts of the case. So Chris McDonough joining me, director of Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective and host of a YouTube channel, The Interview Room. Chris, you've got two choices about where the ID was found, and we do believe it was an ID such as a driver's license or a student ID belonging to one of the four victims. Now, also know that Koberger was stalking at least one of the three women online, maybe dating back all the way to 2021 before he even started his PhD program at Washington State University, which is a whole nother can of worms. We'll circle back to that,

Caitlin Becker and entire panel. But there's only two places. We know that this license, we're going to go with a license or a driver's ID or student ID, was found either in his car or in his parents' house. Did he travel cross country with that ID in the Elantra? Did he have it that close at hand? I mean, Chris McDonough, you know what my purse is, my pocketbook? It's a rubber band. And in the rubber band, I have my driver's license, two credit cards, and a whole bunch of other stuff like a Costco card. I have some driver's licenses and credit cards my children made for me when they were about three years old. They drew them on the back of little cards and, you know, drew a picture for my face and made up fake numbers for my driver's license.

I carry those to this day. So just what does that mean in your mind, Chris McDonough? Can't you just imagine Koberger driving cross-country with his father all the way from Washington State University, home to his family home in the Poconos, with that driver's license, that student ID, there with him so he could hold on to it. Absolutely, Nancy. I mean, this is all about power and control for him. And that car is so significant to Kohlberger because it gives him the sense of not only reliving the incident because he can remember all those times potentially that he drove back there, allegedly 12 separate times.

Now he potentially has a trophy from one of the victims here. what we call it. I can't help but go back to a conversation we had early on on your show about the correlation between some of the study he potentially could have been doing with BTK. BTK took Nancy Fox's driver's license. And when I heard this and read the story from Caitlin, I thought to myself, holy cow, is this guy actually potentially laying over his behavior on something that he was studying? I would submit to you, we're going to see a lot more about these correlations, I would suspect, as this case continues to unpack itself. You know what? You said that almost clinically, but let me break it down and regular people talk. You're absolutely correct, Chris McDonough,

that he, Brian Koberger, apparently kept souvenirs of the murders. And you were talking about his studies, and yes, we did talk about them here on Crime Stories, where he would actually ask felons, violent felons, I'm talking murderers, rapists, child molesters, how did you pick your victim? How did you escape? How did you get away?

Did you, quote, achieve your goal? His words, not mine. In other words, did you perform the murder or the rape? How did that make you feel? He was getting vicarious thrills through the crimes of other violent felons, reliving their experience. Speaking of one of the many, many killers that kept mementos, or as it's called, trophies. That makes me think of the hunters that put the animal head upon the wall. Talking about humans. Human trophies.

I'm referring right now to Jeff Dahmer in our cut, Be As A Brother. Listen to Simon Whistler at Biographics. Undoubtedly one of modern history's most notorious and abhorrent killers, his crimes are the stuff of nightmares. Over the course of 13 years, he prowled for men and lured them back to his house before drugging them and strangling them. In all, he took the lives of 17 men between 1978 and 1991, but simply killing his victims wasn't enough for Jeffrey Dahmer. He never wanted them to leave, so he saved several trophies, including severed heads. Eventually, he even ate parts of the victims. He also kept the victims genitals. I can only imagine we're talking about

their penises and their testicles. So that I started to say is one of the most outlandish or most unbelievable trophies kept by a killer, but they all are. And right now I'm pretty sure I need a shrink or a drink, but since I'm a teetotaler, I'll go with a shrink. Dr. Jory Croson joining me, psychologist, faculty, St. Leo University, and consultant with the Blue Wall Institute. He is the author of Operation SOS. Dr. Jory, thank you for being with us. Dr. Jory, I heard Chris McDonough say power and control. Power and control.

Why is keeping someone's genitals after you mutilated them, either before post-mortem or their student ID, how does that give you power or control over your dead victim? Well, the power and control is kind of the big picture. When you individualize it down to the person, it's their recall. It's the fantasy that they attach to it. Wait, I'm trying to absorb everything you're saying. You know, you experts, and that goes for you too, Caitlin Becker.

You give us so much information. It's like drinking out of the fire hydrant. Okay, you said relive. Because as I told you, all over our den is me still trying to play catch up and make the 2017 Christmas album. And yes, I stopped the whole time. I see a picture. I'm like, oh, I remember that. Putting up the tinsel and we were laughing and John Davis started playing the piano. And made him stop, and I found out he was really on his cell phone the whole time.

I relive that moment. Is that what you're saying when I see that picture? Yes. And usually, as they develop this fantasy, it becomes what they want it to be in their mind, like in performance. If they did something that wasn't right that they would like to do if they had done it differently, that's incorporated into the fantasy. And that's brought out, I'm looking from the clinical perspective, when I worked in prison and worked with these violent offenders and the sex offenders, you know, getting into that fantasy life and how they related to it through these momentums that they kept.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let me just ask, did anybody on this panel ever watch Desperate Housewives? I did. Who's that? Caitlin. Caitlin, okay. I never have time to watch TV, but I did get hooked on Desperate Housewives. And about every other third Sunday night I'd watch it.

And I remember one guy he was the villain remember he ended up marrying one of the housewives I can't remember any of their names but he had lost his wife and daughter in a crash and she um was it Nicolette Sheridan yes don't look at me like that Jackie I watched one program and you give me a look. I didn't watch it. I don't know. Anyway, he tries to kill her because she mowed down his wife and daughter years and years and years before and insinuates himself into her life. I think that's how it went. Anyway, in the end, he's sitting in a jail cell, much as Dr. Jory Croson just described, and he's reliving the night, not of the attempted murder, but when his wife and daughter said, hey, we're going to run down to the store.

You want to drive with us? And he said no. And they had the wreck and died. He relives it over and over and over. But in his mind, he goes, no, it's snowing outside. Don't go outside. Stay in here and let's decorate the tree or something like that. And he creates an entire alternate fantasy about what really happened. And for the rest of his life, he'll be in that jail cell reliving the moment over and over and replaying it out, just like Dr.

Jory Croson said about how he wishes he could have done it better. And don't you know, Johnny Naccarato, former Sheriff Sergeant Crime Reconstruction Forensic Team Supervisor at thejohnnylaw.com. Johnny, don't you know if he could do it all over, he would not have left the knife sheath at the murder scene. Hello? Right? And he would not have turned his cell phone on when he was a few miles away from the house that we can now trace his circuitous route back to his housing at Washington State University the night of the murders so he's living in the fantasy land about what he should could would have done that Dr. Jory Crawson and Chris McDonough just described yeah that was a little bit of a foopar on his whole entire plan.

I don't think he realized the technology that we as a law enforcement have available to us. It's just like, you know, we learned so much from trials. I bet if he watched the current trial that we just all watched from South Carolina. Murdoch, may he rot in hell. May he rot in hell. May he rot in hell. And if he would have watched that trial before he committed these murders, do you think he would have done things a little bit differently? I think 100%.

Absolutely. The ID cards, that is another faux pas. Now, let's say that it's true. Are you attempting to say faux pas? Because it sounds like you're saying poo-pah. Yeah, faux pas. I thought sounds like you're saying poo-paw. Yeah. Yeah, faux pas. I thought you had some unusual and unique derivative, but it's just a mispronounced.

Okay, go ahead. He has that down here. But I mean, right now, we're talking about, it's either, Caitlin Becker, do you believe it's a driver's license or a student ID? Honestly, I think it could be either one of them. I think it's whatever was easily accessible. That would be my guess. Which, you know, think about it, Johnny Nacarato. You're the crime scene reconstructionist.

I'm thinking about him at the moment of the murders fumbling around and finding a trophy. Or did he just find it by random? Was it sitting out on the kitchen counter when he walked through and he picked it up? But I could see Koberger fumbling around in one of their bedrooms trying to find something to take. And you know another thing, he could have taken more like jewelry

or some other trophy that we don't know about, Johnny. Yeah, that's 100% correct. Let's just say that the rumor is true. It is an IV card that is of one of the victims. Now, here's another thing. He's been stalking them. Did he do a car clout and break in and take some IVs out of purses? Was he in the house prior at one of these big parties?

And you know how girls leave their purses around? He covertly gets some ids out of there knowing what he's going to do because he knows he's not going to have time with bloody gloves or all this physical evidence with low cards principle he's going to bring something to the scene take something away did he take these ids prior to versus the night of because that that's a pretty tight window with the surveillance footage of him having to get these murders get back in and get the footage of him getting out of there. That's a short time. So we don't know. But I think you're right. Is that Kate on Japan, please?

Yeah, I do. I think it might have been before. There just seems to be so much evidence that there was this alleged stalking from Kohlberger to the home and to the girls leading up to the murders that I had always you know theorized that he had been in the house before likely disguised as a party goer and that would be ample opportunity to like he said take something I think he likely if I'm guessing had other things that belonged to his original target and that the ID might have been one of the things that he took ahead of time. I'll be curious to see if one of the victims had reported it missing. From the beginning, Caitlin Becker, you had been saying that. And remind me, everybody,

I want to circle back to the now, we believe, based on newly released evidence that Koberger had been actually in touch with or trying to be in touch with one of these female victims dating back to 2021, which is before he started his studies at Washington State University. That's a whole nother can of worms. Did he actually go to WSU? Did he leave DePaul where he was studying across the country because of a fixation on one of these girls. How did that happen? Only a seasoned and veteran computer tech guy is going to be able to unravel that. But back to this, what he may have taken.

Guys, take a listen to our cut 19 in as in now. You're hearing forensic psychologist Dr. Jononi johnston in mark of a killer listen we know that one of robert hansen's victims had a fish necklace that was so meaningful to her that she never took it off and even after she died and it was later discovered what happened to her her family asked for that necklace back when ro Robert Hansen takes these trophies, he is extending his hunting. So he's gotten the prize now. His whole life in some respects is about hunting. He's got trophies on his wall, he's got trophies now hidden in his attic. So he feels incredibly powerful. It's probably the peak of this entire experience for him.

Not only a memento to relive the incident like I'm reliving Christmas 2017 with the twins and David decorating the tree, but not only that, Mark Tate, he's got a hell of a problem at trial if what caitlin caitlin becker from daily mail is telling us and i believe she is correct that he kept a memento oh man i'd love to spin that out in opening arguments to the jury about him holding on to it just looking at it in his uh glove box in his car like it was radioactive knowing it was in there the entire 2000 plus miles across the country. What is that Caitlin jumping in? Yeah. Can I jump in really fast? Yes. I take them issue with the fact that some sources had said it was found in the glove box. I had parsed through and looked through the search for it just with a fine tooth comb. You really have. And I got to tell you, I did the same thing, but I learned a lot listening to you it was awesome go ahead

I the only place I found mention of IDs was in what was taken from inside co-workers parents house in our Albrightville and in the list it says number 35 on the list I can read it to you right now it says id cards cards plural inside glove inside box so it doesn't say inside a glove box and it's not from his car it says id cards inside glove inside box as if he's hiding the id in a glove and then hiding that glove in the box i'm curious who the glove belongs to. And I think there's something so telling that if this is what is referred to by the ID belonging to one of the victims,

not only was it traveling with him, allegedly, from Pullman, Washington to Albrightville, but it's inside the home, so close to him. And it sounds like it's something that's hidden to me. So I think that makes it even worse. Well, let me add something psychologically real quick hold on i agree with caitlin becker and i started our discussion with it's either in the glove compartment in the car or somewhere in the family home and my reading of the search warrant

of course we're going to have to hear it from the horse's mouth is what caitlin becker just said i think it's found the student id, if that's what it is, is in the parent's home. It's inside a glove. You know the perfect place to look for everything? It's always in somebody's underwear and sock drawer. That's where everybody hides everything. I still have hidden in there my children's teeth that the tooth fairy took in little bags with the date on it i don't know whose tooth goes to whose mouth i didn't think of that but that said i still do it and i even know better so mark tate i believe she's right and i could spin that out in opening argument too because he did go across the country with the id just thinking about it. Then he takes great care, Mark Tate, of putting the ID inside a glove, inside of a box, in his family home.

You know, he had to very carefully pick that spot. Sure. But it's going to come back to bite him like a rattlesnake on the neck at trial, Mark Tate. Mark Tate, a high-profile trial lawyer with the Tate Group joining us. Go ahead, Mark Tate, a high-profile trial lawyer with the Tate Group joining us. Go ahead, Mark Tate. Hey, yeah, that's a very specific bite location you've chosen for where this piece of evidence is going to hit him. But, you know, usually, Nancy, when I'm talking with you about these cases that get this national and international attention, I enjoy pointing out to you how I could defend the case.

And it usually sparks your ire and you come at me like a spider monkey with how crazy I am. I've never been compared to a spider monkey, but I like it. Go ahead. The more I read that Caitlin writes and the more that I hear in other areas, you know, in the media, I would not be very pleased with having to serve the role as a public defender in defending this guy. The evidence is stacking up against him in a way that I just don't see any room. I don't see any daylight between him and the charges that he's going to be facing. And, you know, with the other cases we've recently spoken about, you know, I tell you,

if the if the offender had called me when he committed the crime, I could have kept him from talking in a way that gets him convicted later. You know, I would defend the guy charged right now with the Stormy Daniels cover-up payment. I could defend that. I could see a way that I could defend it. I'm having a hard time seeing a way that I can defend this case. And as I've told you, and as you know, I like to handle criminal defense matters where I see some daylight, where I see a way that I can make a difference for the defendant. I don't see it here. I'll tell you, it's going to be really hard to explain a student ID or driver's license

in a glove, in a box, in his parents' home. Guys, he's not the only one, though. Take a listen to our cut 20 in, box in his parents home. Guys, he's not the only one though. Take a listen to our cut 20 in as in now. The defense argued that since Farver's body has never been found, no one knows if a murder was committed. Prosecutors point at key evidence found on an SD card owned by Goliar with photos they believe are of Farver's leg and foot that match her tattoos. Also photos of a blue and black tarp. They believe the pics were Goliar's trophy for getting away with murder. This left foot depicted in this photograph is consistent, appears to be

consistent with a foot that's in a state of decomposition. Okay, they're not the only ones and that one was dealing with Shanna Goyer and arguing that since Carrie Farmer's body was never found no murder occurred but they had photos trophies the defendant had taken of the victims decomposing body and joining me dr. Michelle Dupree you know her well now if you watched any portion of the Alex Murdoch double murder trial. You know Dr. Michelle Dupree. She is also working tirelessly regarding the exhumation and the re-autopsy and what that means in the case of Stephen Smith, also out of South Carolina, pathologist, medical examiner, former detective, and for us, very significant, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide.

You know, Dr. Dupree, you've seen a lot of dead bodies, but the perp that keeps a trophy like we think Koberger did, Ed Gein, a serial killer, made masks with his victims' faces. Yvonne Millat kept his victims' camping equipment, at least seven that we know of. He would stalk people camping, kill them, bury them in the forest, but yet keep little bits of their camping equipment. Listen to this one, Dr. Dupree. Alex Mangle made a scalp wig. Now that was up in Westchester, New York, but police originally deemed it to be a wig, but it was actually the victim's scalp, which the defendant wore as a wig when he grabbed his next victim. Okay, we've all seen Hamble Lecter. That's nothing compared to the real-life killers. Now one guy, John George Hay, kept his victim's dog. Much has been made about

the dog in this case. The dog in this case is alive and well and actually has a GoFundMe. Robert Hansen, as you know, kept his victim's jewelry, Dr. Dupree. Johnny Christie kept his victim's body sitting in the kitchen for a really long time. Rifkin kept all sorts of trophies like a license plate, underwear, bras, driver's licenses, jewelry, a library card, which is kind of like in this case we think is a student ID. Stanley Dean Baker kept his victims bones, only select bones, not all of the bones. Particularly, he kept the finger bones Dennis Nielsen kept body parts Edmund Kemper kept his mother's head now that's it and I could go on I've got stacks and stacks of these guys but what about it Dr. Dupree ever seen anything like it Nancy I have actually and to me I knew you

were going to say that that's not a shock it may shock people, but I knew you had. Okay, go ahead. These people are scary. I mean, these people are so out of touch with reality. I mean, how do you even explain this? I've had serial killer cases where they did many of the same things like this, and they're just downright scary. I do not want to meet these people anywhere, anytime, not in the dark alley or anywhere. You know, I'm starting to believe that, Dr. Michelle Dupree, it's not that uncommon that killers keep mementos.

Thoughts? You're right, Nancy. And during my time as an investigator, we actually saw some of that. I've even seen where some of the killers would attend the funeral of their victim, even go so far as to put something strange or a taunting note in the casket. I mean, they do all sorts of strange things. It's just unbelievable. All this is swirling as we learn about a potential internal affairs investigation that could spell doom for the prosecution's case. Take a listen to our Cut 363. This is Amanda Eustace with WNEP. Documents of protection were

filed prohibiting anyone from discussing the contents of the internal affairs investigation material. Riegel says it's hard to tell if this is good or bad news for either side trying the case. The last thing that a prosecution wants is to have to do a case twice. So they want to make sure that they have met the due process obligations and provided the things that they're required to provide because that's the only way that they get to do the case once. Now it's unclear if we'll ever learn what the information is about. As of now, Brian Koberger remains locked up in Idaho jail. His preliminary hearing is scheduled for June 26th.

Caitlin Becker joining us from DailyMail.com, investigative reporter who has thoroughly analyzed all the aspects of what we know so far in the Brian Koberger prosecution. Kaitlin, what can you tell us about a potential internal affairs investigation? You know, Nancy, unfortunately, like you just heard, there really is not a lot of information out there. Basically, all we know is that an officer involved in the investigation had some sort of Brady violation was being investigated internally, and that's kind of it. Okay, let's talk about how devastating that would be to the police. But Dr. Jory Croson, psychologist and faculty at St. Leo University, I heard you jumping in earlier.

What were you saying? I was talking about the hidden memento there. One of the key things, too, you look at is how secretive he placed, you know, that's a value to him. So hiding it like he did, to me, that's very significant, okay, because now it becomes more personalized as a trophy or a memento. I agree. I'm just imagining him going through all of the effort to find the right hiding place for the student I.D. of one of the people he murdered. Oh, yeah. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I want to talk about Chris McDonough, former homicide detective, now star of The Interview Room,

also the director at thecoldcasefoundation.org. Chris McDonough, an internal affairs investigation, in other words, a potential dirty cop, that can spell doom for your case. And you would never believe the cops that are somehow dirty. One bad apple can spoil the whole bunch. And I'll never forget Chris McDonough. I tried. It wasn't called child sex trafficking or human trafficking then. But I was trying to find a little girl that was taking it like age 13 and pimped out. I mean pimped out. I couldn't find her.

Couldn't find her. Couldn't find her. I and three vice detectives worked the streets and it was cold. Oh, it was so cold outside for months. So I would handle my plea and arraignment calendar and then go out on the street looking for this girl. We finally found her. And by the way, when I did find her, she was in a flop house down on Stewart Avenue in Atlanta where everybody sold dope and got hookers. I went in there and looked.

There were like three or four women in there. I came out like, she's not in there. Why did you even bring me here? It's her and the white boots. I went back in. This little girl, now 14, looked like a 35-year-old woman with the long weave and all the makeup and the high boots and the short skirt and the false eyelashes. It was just like, I couldn't even, when we got all that off of her, she looked like she ought to have on a little school uniform and go to school with my daughter, Lucy. But that said,

we got the conviction. It was about eight months later. I was working and somebody had a TV going on mute. And I looked up and there was a sketch artist, Chris McDonough, in a federal courtroom. And I went, wow, that kind of looks like Harrington. And I just kept going because, you know, the sketch artist's work never looks like the person. Well, guess what? It was him and his co-defendants. My three vice guys that I'd worked with every single day trying to find this little girl, as it turned out, when I wasn't around, would bust dope lords and take all their gold jewelry

and their money. And it was so bad, the feds did a sting on the cops. Now, how a jury cared about whether a doper lost his gold chain, I don't know, but they were prosecuted and convicted. So you think you know somebody, you don't know them at all. What can an internal affairs investigation do to a case? Well, it's, as you've uh eloquently laid out nancy as a prosecutor's worst nightmare potential uh and because you know i actually got transferred into vice uh years ago in 1984 to 86 because we had a guy who was taking uh favors on the side for moving drugs to certain people. And so what this is about, the good news here is this is Brady discovery, right? And you can explain that forever, Nancy.

Do I have to? Go ahead. It was brought up by the state. So the state was made aware of it by the IA team, the internal affairs unit at the PD and says, hey, one of our guys, by the way, has this in his personnel file. You may want to reveal this to the defense while you can. And so that's the upside of this, that the state brought it forward. The downside is we don't know exactly what it is. It could be just a citizen's complaint about, you know, the officer was rude to me as much as, hey, this guy's lied before. And, you know, we need to make sure that we get ahead of this. So it could go either way.

To Johnny Nacarato, joining us, former Sheriff Sergeant,ant, now crime and construction and forensic team supervisor. You can find him at thejohnnylaw.com. Johnny, as a former sheriff's sergeant, you know what? Every cop that's dirty, they need to be thrown out and prosecuted themselves because it gives the rest of law enforcement, who I believe are decent and honorable people, a black eye. And it can ruin a prosecution. When a jury finds out a cop on the stand, a witness, is dirty, it can ruin the whole thing. Just like in Alex Murdoch, let's use him again. Once he got on the stand and he lied,

it came out that he had lied about being in those dog kennels at the time of the murders he lost all credibility it was over he's a big fat liar and if one cop is lying are they all lying that's what can go through the minds of the jury johnny no 100 and and us in law enforcement i mean once you lie and i mean once you lie at all whether it's an ia or it's in court, you're done. It's a wrap. I mean, you're not going to be testifying anymore, and your career is probably going to be over. Forget their career.

Who cares about their career? They did that to themselves. What about the state's case? What about a true verdict? I mean, didn't you see what happened in O.J. Simpson with one cop? Mark Tate, Johnny Naccarato. Yeah, I'll tell you what a lying cop does. Johnny Naccarato is in law enforcement.

I'm not sure they teach pronunciation necessarily of French colloquialisms faux pas. Let me enjoy my one tiny triumph please okay my car is always right i got him on one thing let me enjoy the moment for pete's sake you're enjoying it i am i'm gonna say it again faux pas whoo okay you know but so so um yeah yeah if you have an officer on the stand upon whom the state relies and the defense catches him in a lie and they're able to expose it for the first time in cross-examination in front of a jury, it can have a massive impact. However, I would suggest that perhaps Johnny is a little bit wrong in thinking that the state doesn't rely on lying people all the time.

Okay, Mark Tate, I did not give you license to start lying about confidential informants. Of course, they're all dopers and bad guys themselves. That's who CIs are. Mark Tate, as I have often said to juries, who do you think that bad guys hang out with? Nuns and priests and virgins? How do you think a confidential informant knows what the dopers are doing? Because he's a bad guy. There. It's just that simple. And I've had to tell it to a jury like that many times. But also, sometimes you got to go to hell to get your witness to put the devil in jail. And I do not think one cop can bring down the Brian Koberger case for the state. Mark Tate, I would recommend not even putting this guy on the stand and making my case without him.

No, you can. But what I'm saying is that, one, a prosecutor can know they're going in with a disingenuous witness and explain it. It's not the fact that the witness may be shifty. The fact is that if the defense catches it by surprise, it's the element of surprise. You never want the other side to bring it out. You have to bring it out. I just would try every way I could to avoid him or her on the stand. Also, Caitlin Becker, we're learning that the connection between Koberger and at least one of the female victims

possibly dates back to 2021. Now, this is what we knew up until now. Take a listen to Hour Cut 348, our friends at WPVI. We also learned today that Koberger may have even sent direct messages on Instagram to one of the victims two weeks before the murders

with things like, hey, how are you? Now, weeks ago, investigators did reveal they found a knife sheath near one of the bodies. They recovered a man's DNA from that, and that was later connected to Koberger through DNA found at his parents' home in the Poconos. It was raided December 29th, the same day that the warrant was executed on his apartment itself.

The other thing this warrant does say, it says these murders appeared to have been planned rather than a crime that happened in a moment of conflict. Caitlin Becker, investigative reporter at DailyMail.com. Hey, how are you? All right, but now we're learning that his connection to at least one of these victims may go back all the way to 2021 before he even went to WSU, which is about nine, ten miles away from the murder scene. They had to figure that out. If in fact it's true, Caitlin Becker, through what we are now learning are search warrants on social media such as Google,

Tinder, Insta. Also, we're learning that the debit and credit cards of the victims and the defendant were taken. I mean, all of their records. Were they at the same restaurant at the same time? They're trying to make all of those connections. And these warrants are dating back to at least 2021. What do you make of it? This makes a lot of sense to me because we've been wondering from the get-go what the connection is between Coburger and the victims and, of course, how far back it goes. And it really does seem like based on these search warrants, and you mentioned a few of them, but there were more than 60 that had been sent out. Everything from, like you said, the bank accounts to eBay to a bunch of dating apps, all from

match group like Tinder, all the meta platforms, Reddit, Snapchat, all of these search warrants have been sent out for the three female victims. And for Kohlberger, it doesn't seem that Ethan Chapin's name was searched as well within these documents because it looks like he just happened to have been really at the wrong place at the wrong time and that it was the female victims that were at least one of them the targets. So going back to January 2021 would really indicate to me that this had been planned obviously for far longer than we had even anticipated. My biggest question now, Nancy, would be, when did he decide to apply to Washington State University? Is it before that or after that?

Because it would be the most reasonable to me that perhaps he had already applied and he had gone out and checked it out and been in the area. And maybe that was the first time he ran into them. I agree. That is the most reasonable. But somehow, I don't know that reason applies to people like Brian Koberger now that we know he actually kept a memento, a memento of the murders. Guys, we wait as the evidence unfolds. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.