Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Bryan Kohberger, Murder Suspect, Talks Down to Lady Cop

Episode Date: May 11, 2023

A new video has emerged of Bryan Kohberger interacting with police, and this time, in a traffic stop a month before the murders take place. In the body cam footage, you can hear Kohberger trying to talk his way out of a ticket, telling the female officer that "there's no crosswalks where he's from."  Also newly released in information is that police found a padlock for a storage unit at Kohberger's apartment. Police believe Kohberger cleaned out that unit and his apartment before a search warrant was executed. Documents state that police found 60 reddish-brown stains. Two of those stains were found on a pillow and a mattress. They tested positive for blood. Other than the stains, police found little else in the apartment. Even the trash cans were empty.  Joining Nancy Grace Today: Mark Tate- Trial Lawyer-The Tate Law Group- TateLawGroup   Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski  - Forensic Psychologist, Author: “Dark Sides"  Sheryl McCollum - Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, Host of new podcast: "Zone 7;" Twitter: @ColdCaseTips   Toby Wolson- Forensic Consultant specializing in Serology, DNA, and Bloodstain Pattern Analysis  Laura Ingle - Senior Correspondent, Fox News Channel; Twitter: @laurraingle/Instagram:@lauraingletv See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Bombshell in the last hours. According to reports, police find what they believe is blood on multiple items inside Brian Koberger's Pullman apartment. Now, here's the kicker. The apartment looks like someone professionally cleaned it out, wiped it down clean before cops could get in there. But blood doesn't lie. This is a secret storage locker emerges.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Brian Koberger, the prime suspect in the murders of four beautiful Idaho University students. We are learning more and more about evidence police have amassed. Is it the student's blood in his apartment? Even when he cleaned that apartment meticulously, wiping it down, telltale blood drops remain behind. What do we learn?

Again, thank you for being with us. First of all, take a listen to our friends at Crime Online. On the night of December 30th. Police department, search warrant, come to the door. Police searched Brian Koberger's apartment in Pullman, Washington. Only hours earlier, Koberger had been arrested across the country in the Poconos. According to documents, police found 60 reddish-brown stains, two of which, on a pillow and a mattress, tested positive for blood. Even if the blood does not belong to the four college students killed in Idaho, it could be useful to the prosecution.

If it's the defendant's blood, was it a result of the victims struggling with him? You are hearing Defense Attorney John Waldron speaking to our friends at WFMZ and more. Here's Crime Online. Fifty items from Brian Koberger's apartment were tested by police. Two of those items, a mattress cover and a pillow, tested positive for blood in the presumptive chemical tests. There was a dark red spot on the kitchen counter near the sink which could not be tested but was collected according to documents. To whom the blood belongs is not yet known. Not all of the tested items were seized by police. The other 48 tested items, including

stains on towels, swabs of bathroom sinks, and the shower drain, a microwave and pizza cutter, tested negative. More than a dozen items were seized, however, including the two bedding items and the discoloration from the countertop. Why couldn't some of the blood be tested? To whom does it belong? And this, I guess, the backdrop of police believing the apartment was wiped clean. Take a listen to our friends WFMZ. Other than the stains, police found barely anything in the apartment. Even the trash cans were empty.

Waldron says even the lack of evidence left behind could be incriminating. It could be argued by a prosecutor that he fled Washington. In essence, he had a consciousness of guilt. With me an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, but first I want to go out to Laura Ingalls, senior investigative correspondent for Fox News Channel, joining us. And you can hear her whenever you want to on a brand new hit series Fox true crime minute it's everywhere you get podcasts Lauren thank you for being with us and congratulations on your new hit true crime minute Thank You Nancy tell me about the blood that we think it's blood right found at

Koberger's Pullman apartment now this is the apartment that's about 10 minutes away from where the students were murdered many people believe in their sleep well and you said it there too nancy that's what we're waiting to find out that these tests were run we know that some of these items had blood it's confirmed to be a blood-like substance but we don't know whose blood that is going to be so important and most likely going to hopefully be revealed at this preliminary hearing if we can get there in late June. But the number of tests that will run on the items found in his apartment, some did come back positive for bloodstains. This is according to the court documents that were just released by Washington State University Police, they have not

released who they belong to though. The stain on the mattress cover, a stain on a pillow inside the apartment testing positive for blood, but those other items that we've been so curious about, the sink, the shower drain, a curtain rod, the entry to a door and things under a coffee table and near a computer pad. They tested all of that, but they did not turn up any traces of blood. I think that there was hope that there was going to be some kind of DNA evidence, some kind of traceable evidence, but there was not. To Cheryl McCollum, joining me, forensics expert, Cold Case Investigative Research Institute founder and director. You can find her at coldcase

crimes.org and she's the star of a new podcast zone 7 which is awesome cheryl mccollum give me the bottom line on this they threw luminol over that place they used a light source they probably use you know chemical testing they were looking for the smallest amount of evidence you can think of so when you look at this scene and they tested over 50 things if two came back as human blood then you're going to concentrate now on those two when we learn who's d and a those two know, small pieces of evidence belong to. I think that, again, is what is going to connect him to the original murder scene. You know, as if there's not enough. But that said, you know, Cheryl McCollum, I love when a defendant does this massive cleanup.

And I've always noticed how when people go missing or are murdered, suddenly the defendant turns into a neatnik. He just got to run out to Walmart or Target or wherever and buy three or four hundred dollars worth of cleaning supplies. And they're always caught on camera. And then they come home and they just start spring cleaning, you know, in the middle of a snowstorm. Now, what is interesting here, well, so much is interesting as Laura Engel lays it out. But the fact that the backdrop is the whole apartment looks like it's been wiped down. Looks like it's been wiped down and the shower curtain is missing. So, again, if you're trying to take some bloody items out of the house, that would be a good way to do it because something is not going to seep through the shower curtain.

You know, joining me in addition to Laura Engel and Cheryl McCollum, Toby Wolson is joining us. Forensic consultant specializing in serology, DNA, and bloodstain patterns. You can find Toby at NosLowForensic.com. Toby, thank you for being with us. You know, no matter how hard you try, you just really can't get rid of all the blood evidence. To the naked eye, you can't see it. Now, clearly, you've got a criminal procedure major living in the apartment. He knows how to wipe down surfaces. He knows all about squirting 409 and so forth. But unless you are using Luminol,

like Cheryl McCollum just suggested, you can't see it all. That's correct. Luminol has an extreme sensitivity depending on which articles you read. It's one part per million is some of the highest sensitivities for it. The thing about cleanups is that you leave behind trace amounts,

and luminol sensitivity will detect those trace amounts. But luminol is also hampered by its cross-reactivity with a lot of the agents that are in cleaning products. So what happens frequently when you're looking for a cleanup is rather than seeing the blood, you see all the swirls and everything from them cleaning up and the damage that's been done by mixing the blood with the cleaning products. But it is a very good search reagent if you're comfortable with it and have experience with using it. You know, back to you, Cheryl McCollum, again, knowing that the apartment was wiped down,

seemingly by a pro. You just imagine, Koberger, you know, he's been studying criminal procedure, criminals themselves, criminal law. He's getting his Ph.D. in the study of crime. Don't you know he tried to wipe down every surface he could right with that some other mistakes could be made for example a missing shower curtain that's going to be a red flag to anybody that would walk into that bathroom if there's not a floor mat if there's towels that look like they're missing if he you know bought a set if there's sheets missing, if there's

a pillowcase missing, because one of the stains it said was on a pillow that didn't have a pillowcase on it. Well, I want to know where the pillowcase is. So again, he might have noticed the pillowcase had a stain, but he missed the pillow. Mark Tate joining us, a high-profile lawyer out of the Savannah jurisdiction who shot to national fame during the Alex Murdoch trial. You can find him at the Tate law group dot com. Mark Tate, don't you just hate it when your client goes home to his parents house for Thanksgiving, Christmas break, and he just has to take his own

shower curtain with him? Well, you know, it was always difficult for me. It's not like Prince Charles that takes his own commode everywhere. No, I understand. It is difficult. And I know it was always difficult for me personally. I call it something else. I call it probative. You want to tell me one juror is going to identify with taking your own shower curtain home to mom and daddy?

There is no way. No, this guy is in really bad trouble. And, you know, he has a public defender. I think she's got to obviously she's got a duty a fiduciary duty to her client to the best she can but this is really difficult uh the the things that are adding up that the prosecution has uh this is just another arrow in the quiver that makes it so i think the real question is whether is this uh whether there's a death penalty case uh that that is going to be brought,

because I'm not seeing any light of day. And that's the thing I really like to do, Nancy, that you know, is I like to find some kind of crack, some light of day through something that I can say, you know, maybe we can talk about this and defend what's going on here. Why are you talking about that? That's not what I asked you to take. What? What are you talking about? I asked's not what I asked you to take. What? What are you talking about? I asked you,

why would anybody take their shower curtain when they go home for Thanksgiving break? Oh, because they're guilty and they want to get rid of a frigging shower curtain. Exactly. Exactly. You know, that leads me to, and I'm sure by the time I come back to you,

you're going to come up with a theory, but I guess you're going to say, okay, I might as well put it out there. Oh, it had mold on. I had to get rid of it. There's no way to clean that. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Dr. Jeff Koleszewski joining us, forensic psychologist, author of Dark Sides.

Dr. Jeff Kalashevsky, you can clean your apartment all you want to. And Laura Engel, don't be shy for Pete's sake. Jump in when you've got some tidbits of facts for me. Dr. Kalashevsky, you can clean your apartment all you want to. But in my mind, this guy is so I don't in fact in a few moments I'm going to play a sound of Koberger getting pulled over for edging into a crosswalk where people are crossing and he actually has the cup and tell me if I got this wrong Laura Engel go look up the law and you can hear him saying, well, from where I come from, you know, this is not a crime. And I don't believe this is a crime.

And actually asking the cop, the lady cop, to go get the law to show him that that was a crime. Listen, and this gives us another sliver of information about Brian Koberger himself, right? What he sounds like in this body cam footage, how he behaves while under pressure or dealing with somebody of authority. Now, we've been hearing from people who know him in the weeks and months after the quadruple murders. They described him as someone

who was constantly always showing people that he thought he was smarter than them. You hear that, Tate? You hear that, Tate? People don't like that. People don't like what? Okay, go ahead. Shower curtains?

I know it all. Go ahead. Yeah, so we heard that from everybody. Now, I went to Pennsylvania. I was outside of that jail where he was held. The moment that he was arrested, we raced to Pennsylvania. I was there for a good five days, and I can tell you from being in the—it is a rural area, but I'm sorry, there are crosswalks and there are street lights and there are stoplights. And, you know, we spent some time there. I hung out outside of his parents gated community while it is far back in the country. There are crosswalks and there are, you know, normal things that you would associate. So anyway, his argument, as I was listening to him, I listened to it several times as i'm sure you have too um talking to the

officer talking about the law wanting to explain it but the other side too you can you can listen to that body cam footage of him getting pulled over and while on one hand it sounds like a guy who's you know trying to be super smart and trying to talk about the law. And it also sounds like a guy who's trying to get out of a ticket. Sounds like a world-class a-hole to me. But that's just me. Maybe you guys will interpret this differently. To Dr. Jeff Kalaszewski, I'm sure that's not a proper psychological diagnosis, a world-class a-hole.

But I'm just really enjoying, for the moment, let me not for this moment think about the four students who were slaughtered, slaughtered. Many people believe in their sleep. Because right now, I want to think about Koberger and how he is so anal. Remember when he was finally arrested at his parents' house in the Poconos, he was wearing plastic gloves, rubber gloves, to take out the trash. Nothing could have made me happier except the fact that I believe he wiped down his entire apartment, took his shower curtain, got rid of it, but still left behind some blood. Well, if I can comment, Nancy, this is Dr. Jeff. I've talked to a lot of people over the years

who've meticulously planned crimes and tried to approach planning and pulling off a crime from sort of an academic perspective. And one of the things that usually trips them up is, for example, if they're going to plan a murder, this is the first murder they've been involved with, first murder they planned, first murder maybe they've done. But law enforcement has had lots of experience with murders.

So a lot of times when I've seen people who've taken this real academic approach and studied police technique and investigative techniques, they will miss something because you can study this kind of stuff all you want, but experience is what's really important. So it doesn't surprise me that he would make mistakes along the way. Big mistakes like taking the shower curtain. That's beyond just cleaning your apartment. Big mistakes like take the pillowcase off a pillow with blood, but the pillow stays there. So even with all your academic study and your academic approach to planning and trying to pull off a crime, it won't trump the experience of seasoned investigators who are on crime scenes all the

time. Dr. Jeff Kalaszewski, that was incredible what you just said. Hey, Mark Tate, isn't it the truth? Let me jump off what Dr. Jeff Kalashevsky just said. I remember going through law school thinking, oh, can I try a case? Will I be awful? Can I pull it off? Blah, blah, blah. I had all my law Xeroxed and ready and every question written out,

which I did till the bitter end, by the way. But when you get in there to try a case, it is like nothing they can tell you in moot court, I can tell you that much, or trial advocacy. Oh, no. It's hand-to-hand mutual combat. And at the end of every day, everybody clear out the court, and I would just sit there thinking, what in the H-to-hand mutual combat. And at the end of every day, everybody clear out the court.

And I would just sit there thinking, what in the H-E-double-L just happened? I'd look at the clock. I'm like, I've been here 7 a.m. and it's 7 p.m. And it's like a big blur. Yeah, it's amazing. You get that weird time compression. And, you know, the kind of joke among lawyers in trial is there's three trials. There's the case that you plan to try uh the case

that you think you tried in the case that you actually tried so yeah you're exactly right all all bets are off once you walk into that courtroom and you got 12 jurors and a potentially mercurial judge you never know what's going to happen but you're right and same thing with crime scenes uh cheryl mccollum how many have we been on together? You know, you can prep all day long in your classroom, Cheryl McCollum, at the Cold Case Research Institute. But when you get out there, it's like, seriously, like all H-E-L-L breaks loose. It's nothing like you can prepare for. You can't prepare because your classroom is not going to give you wind and rain and cold and heat and activity with animals and even family showing up. So you can practice all you want.

Yelling and screaming and contamination. And it's crazy. I think I heard Laura Engel jumping in. Laura, what were you saying? Well, I was just back to the shower curtain part. I just, you know, as you think about the shower curtain being gone now he had started school there he had started attending this past that past fall so he probably moved in around august or september but i'm just i just keep going back to the fact that they ran uh tests on the sink and the shower drain and the curtain rod and there were no signs of blood on

those things and yes the shower curtain is missing i was just there were no signs of blood on those things and yes the shower curtain is missing i was just making that note that he had just moved in wait okay so you're saying he moved in and hadn't bought a shower curtain or that he just only took bubble baths and didn't need a shower curtain i you know i don't know i'm just saying he just i was just curious i was just double checking our notes laura engel you just gave the defense an awesome comeback okay that he hadn't bought a shower curtain yet or that he only took bubble baths that was my fault i think i think i can address jump in the shower curtain issue and stuff who first of all who is this this is toby

watson and toby great go ahead dear as as somebody who's done forensic biology and lots of crime scene work and bloodstain pattern analysis, the assumption is in a crime of this nature that the defendant got himself very bloody at the crime scene. That's not necessarily the case. We know from many cases that the, how bloody the defendant gets is a factor of if the assailant or the, if the victims fight back or not.

It's also a factor of what's being used and the direction the blood is being thrown in. I've had cases involving multiple stab wounds and all where the defendant has little or no blood on him. The focus here really on that shower curtain I, is not where you want to look. If he was bloody after leaving that crime scene, with which four victims he may have been, the more important thing to be looking at is the interior of the Hyundai. Because just like in the OJ case where they examined the interior of the Bronco, even though it was excluded from evidence, they found the victim's blood in that car.

And the reason being because you don't have a chance to clean up at the crime scene. You're anxious to get out of there and get away from it. So the interior of the Hyundai, I would think is a more valuable thing to have examined than the apartment itself. The apartment being that it's an apartment meaning multiple people could live there and if it had been furnished when he moved in any

blood you find could be totally irrelevant to to the case so i i as a there is a forensic biologist and a blood spatter uh expert would be more interested in what was in that car. You know, Toby Wilson, I could listen to you talk all day long. I started off disagreeing with you about how there are stabbings where there is no blood because in this case, Laura and Cheryl jump in and help me

out with the facts. It's my understanding it was an incredibly bloody crime scene, but, which tells me the killer would have had blood on him, but you are right. There can be stabbings and the way that they go down, the defendant does not get very bloody. It's amazing, but I've seen it happen. I know that it can happen.

So that would not be the alpha and the omega, the be all and the end all of this blood investigation, whether he himself was bloody. But based on this crime scene, isn't it true, Laura Engel and Cheryl McCollum, that we've been told it was really bloody? We have certainly heard that. Look, the police didn't come out. They haven't really told us much. Right. And they said it was a very traumatizing crime crime scene obviously uh that was observed uh but they really haven't given us a lot of detail right cheryl cheryl what do you know that's right but here's what i can tell y'all oh boy the defense might say well he didn't have time to get a shower curtain he had just moved in he had time to buy gloves a shovel some goggles and a black mask he freaking had time to get a

shower curtain he chose what he bought also he moved in in august let's don't forget that he moved in in august so he would have had um august september uh october and part of november unless again he let kelgon take him away in a bubble bath he had a shower curtain guys I've got so many other things to discuss including the emergence of a secret storage locker but I really want you to hear Brian Koberger talking back to a cop now I as a felony prosecutor for many, many years, would not talk back to a cop. Absolutely not. Even if I disagreed, forget it. No, you can fight the ticket in court, but not on the street.

Reality, I got to hear Koberger. Now, this is him. Look, I grew up in the middle of nowhere, and I take a lot of pride in that. We didn't even have a red light or stop sign but i even i knew enough as a new driver not to pull into a crosswalk where people would be walking but when he gets pulled over for that i want you to hear how he talks to the lady cop let's go with our cut 405 jack yeah i was just slightly into the crosswalk so yeah yeah where i'm from pennsylvania we actually don't have like crosswalks oh so even if you're if you're kind of slightly they have there's a little bit more leeway as well like there are a few lines like there's one

white line and there's another one like there's like a like a certain yeah margin from which you can actually kind of put your vehicle place your vehicle um yeah yeah so i know laws vary state to state but there is a law in washington for blocking an intersection like that proceeding through and you don't um when you're just stalling i forget the actual verbiage i can find it for you but it's like stalling blocking an intersection i'm just curious about the law i don't mean to oh no yeah i can find it for you okay i love this woman uh am i saying her name correctly laura engel officer isabel luengas sounds right and then she offers to go get him that's amazing the law i mean tate mark tate i love her she's going uh-huh thinking oh a jerk. He's actually trying to talk me out the side of the street like that. But he did. And he tried to engage her in some sort of thing that almost sounded like a prank.

Oh, I'm from a strange place. I don't know how to work crosswalks. Give me a break. Yeah, there are no crosswalks in Pennsylvania. I lived in Philly. There are plenty of crosswalks in Pennsylvania. Oh, sure. But guys, he actually lets the, he sends the lady cop to go get the law take a listen to 406

i don't see pennsylvania registration like at all okay let's see expires november 22nd or 2022 okay and yeah one of those yeah okay that looks good i'll hand that back to you i'm just gonna go check your info i'll try to find that rcw the law for you and i'll be right back thank you all right i guess that's gonna be the uh code of washington the law and listen i can't believe she's still being so cheerful with this guy who's sending her off like she's his secretary to come back with the law fetch go get me the law okay listen to this okay so i found it so i don't know what in pennsylvania the where you go to find laws but in washington it's called the revised code of washington so i'll try to turn my brightness up but um it's basically it's just called an rcw so it's rcw 46.61.202 so it's no driver shall enter an intersection unless there is significant

space on the other side of the intersection um to accommodate the vehicle he is operating without obstructing the passage of other vehicles despite any traffic control signals signal indications to proceed so you had a green light so you're thinking you can go but you're blocking the intersection okay i think i need to shrink on this dr jeff kalashevsky forensic psychologist author of dark sides he actually is challenging the traffic he's in the middle of the crosswalk he's trying to tell her i just nudged in a little bit that's what i call an admission now he's challenging her on the law and trying to talk circles around the traffic officer, who's having none of it, and actually goes and has to recite to him the RCW, the Revised Code of Washington. Yeah, he thinks he's smarter than her and tries to outsmart her, but she outsmarted him when she's quoting the law. And that's when he gave up because he, I mean, he had to accept that he lost.

She outsmarted him. Cheryl McCollum. Cheryl, I'm very surprised that the lady officer didn't use just enough force to affect an arrest. And you know what I mean. Throw him down and handcuff him for his backtalk. But wait. Listen to 409 one more time look 409 i i'm actually just from a very rural area so we just don't have crosswalks oh unless i visit an area where there are crosswalks and then it's it's not very frequent yeah i do apologize if i was asking you too many questions about the law i wasn't

trying to like no no no not at all like i understand you're not from here so um if you don't know a lot of people don't know a bunch of laws like i only know it because this is what i do but um yeah if you're ever curious on any more laws just rcw and they can be hard to read because it's in like legal language. But I hope that helps. Definitely. Yeah. Have a good day. Definitely you too.

Thanks. Don't know the laws he's getting his Ph.D. in the study of criminal procedure and crime. OK, help me out, Cheryl McCollum. Well, as you well know, ignorance of law is no defense. Plus, what he's trying to do here, in my opinion, is play her. So he thinks I'm going to be able to, you know, Jedi mind trick her and not giving me a ticket. Well, that failed. And what happened as soon as he failed? He started to apologize. So that's what I think we're going to see in court. He thinks he's smart, but now that he's stuck like a rat in a coffee can, you're going to see a different attitude.

Has anybody on this panel ever seen Leave it to Beaver? Anybody? Yes. Even in reruns, because I'm sure you're all so young, you didn't see it the first time around. Do you remember Eddie Haskell, the suck-up? Yes. He was always going, oh, Mrs. Cleaver, I love your pearls. That kind of guy.

This is so Eddie Haskell. That's what I have to say all the time to the twins. Don't suck up. It's not working, Eddie Haskell. This is Eddie Haskell sucking up once he realizes. This is over a ticket. What is he going to do when he gets in trial? I bet he's going to give his lawyer, who's making $200 an hour

by the way, I bet he is going to give her fits. Laura Engel, I want you to now, now that I've listened to Brian Koberger's voice longer than I ever wanted to, I want to talk about this secret storage unit. Guys, take a listen to our cut 397. Our friends at KTVB. We found a padlock round in shape in the living room closet. Based on my training experience, I recognize the padlock to be the shape of locks typically used on storage units. You're hearing a phone call between Washington State University Assistant Police Chief Don Daniels and a district judge. All right, please proceed. the storage unit or closet was likely used by Koberger to store the items and likely access between the time of the murders and his travel to Pennsylvania where he was later arrested.

Daniels believes the storage unit could contain DNA evidence including blood, skin cells, footprints, fingerprints, or hair. Daniels is asking the judge for a search warrant to enter Coburger's storage unit. Okay, so Mark Tate joining us, high-profile lawyer out of Savannah with the Tate Law Group. Explain what is happening right there. Well, it looks like that, you know, they have found a reason they've got probable cause to conduct another search. And, you know, I think that obviously he hasn uh surreptitiously enough hidden his evidence and i think that what we see is a a dogged prosecutor who's going to put a case up against him that doesn't leave any stones unturned that's what i think is going on and guys take a listen to our

cut 398 again ktvb there's probable cause and the court hereby authorizes you to sign my name, Jerry J. Levy, on a search warrant to enter the afore described storage facility. Because police conducted a presumptive test, these documents do not say definitively if the stains are blood. It just says that they could be. It's unclear if any of the items police reported that day came from the storage unit or if they were all from his apartment. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know what it sounds like to me, Tate, that the judge or the magistrate is giving a, is granting a search warrant over the phone or by Zoom. Because he says, I authorize you to sign my name, Gary J. Libby.

And that is not uncommon. Sometimes you need a search warrant in the middle of the night and you find whatever magistrate is on duty and you call them or go there. But you can call now, especially with Zoom and FaceTime, you can easily get a warrant. It's made officers a lot, made it a lot easier for them to get warrants when they need them. And frankly, judges like being involved at an early stage so that there are a few errors that keep evidence out later. And so I think that's, you know, if COVID did anything, I think it made it so law enforcement can reach magistrates to get warrants. And I think

that's at least one positive thing that we've seen is judges have become more accessible to law enforcement. So these kinds of things, I think, head at least one positive thing that we've seen is judges have become more accessible to law enforcement. So these kinds of things, I think, head off evidentiary admission problems down the line. And I'm glad they recorded it because I don't want a defense attorney jumping up like you, Tate. Oh, there wasn't a warrant. It was an emergency. There were no exigent circumstances. So therefore, you can't use anything you find in the search fruit of the poisonous tree. Bottom line, we learned police searched a secret storage locker belonging to suspected quadruple killer Brian Koberger

that they believe, cops believe, he accessed after the murders. So, Laura Engel joining me, senior correspondent, Fox News Channel and star of Fox True Crime Minute podcast. Laura, what do we know? Well, this is you're right. And that was a phone call. It was recorded on December 30th. And that voice you hear as you identified Assistant Chief Don Daniels of the WSU Pullman Police Department. So they noticed that there is this round lock. Now, I don't know how many people here on our panel and listening who have had an apartment. I've had many. And when you get an apartment, if it's a small one like this, you usually will get, I've always had a little tiny closet, some kind of a little storage unit where you could put your chairs or whatever.

It's usually pretty small. The one thing that's interesting about what Daniels wrote in her report about what she found or didn't find in the storage closet. Now, did he store things in there? Did he remove them before he took off and went home for the holidays? She did write in her report there were cobwebs going into the storage closet and the floor was dusty and she wrote it did not appear the closet had been used recently and nothing was seized or collected from the closet because there was nothing in it now if he had something in there i'm just noting what's in the report we're just we just don't she says that there was nothing in there maybe that's where he hit his shower curtain laura it could be where the shower curtain was. That's right.

Hey, Nancy, it literally could be that he put the shower curtain down and we pulled up. That's where he went in and he had clothes that he changed into and put everything else on the shower curtain and discarded it. That could absolutely be the case. Like a hobo. You know how they, you've seen the pictures of them putting everything in a big piece of material, putting it on their back, that gathering everything he wanted to get rid of in the shower curtain and getting rid of it all. We also are getting somewhat of an idea where the defense is heading in this case. Take a listen to our cut 410 from our friends at crimeonline.com brian coberger's public defender claims evidence that could prove coberger's innocence has not been turned over to the defense

and taylor has filed a motion to compel discovery among the evidence requested footage from coberger's arrest notes from his interrogations and details about how police tested dna found at the scene of the University of Idaho murders. The defense team is asking the judge to compel prosecutors to comply. Many of these items were included in the first request for discovery filed back in February. A second request was filed on March 24th. There is a total of seven items requested. Again, the body and dash cam footage from Koberger's arrest, copies of lab reports detailing the forensic evidence collection and analysis of items recovered at Koberger's home

as well as his parents' home, trash cans and other receptacles, Koberger's Hyundai Elantra, all lab testing, all recordings and notes from Koberger's interrogation, and training records for multiple officers. Their names have been redacted from the filing. A redacted event is listed requesting all reports, notes, recordings, and photos from that event. Attorneys say this contains exculpatory evidence. The judge has yet to respond to the motion. The defense team is requesting a 10-minute hearing on the issue before the late June preliminary hearing. Okay, that sounds overwhelming, but this is what they did. There are forms that you pull up online, and they're discovery forms,

and they list everything but the kitchen sink, well, plus the kitchen sink, that could possibly be requested on any discovery motion by the defense. So that's what you've got right here. And then they threw in some specific things. Lauren Engel joining us from Fox News. The reality is the defense is claiming the state is hiding evidence. That's what they're claiming. Well, yeah, they want to get their hands on everything.

And the other part of this um when we're talking about that search of the storage locker and of the apartment of uh brian coberger's office at wsu where he had just completed his first semester they found that everything was empty and did you also read about this letter that had happened uh in september he, he was kind of in trouble leading up to everything that occurred in October, November. In September, there was a letter here that said that you had, this is a letter directed to Brian Koberger, that he had an altercation with the faculty, with a professor, John Snyder, and saying that they had some kind of back and forth

that he had failed to meet his expectations as a TA. And as a result, on November 2nd, the graduate director met with him to discuss an improvement plan of his behavior and performance. And then there were further conflicts. There were a lot of conflicts. Cheryl McCollum, many of the conflicts Koberger had as a TA teaching assistant,

which was his duties as he was getting his PhD at WSU, Washington State University, were centered around women. He would grade them more harshly, talk down to them. These are their allegations. I'm not guessing or hypothesizing. This is what they say, that they were single out and criticized, over-criticized compared to their male counterparts. Sure. Even in his social circle, they say that he would have, you know, these bursts of anger and he would sometimes be extremely rude.

That should, you know, shock no one on this panel, much less your audience. He is, I think, so just you can pinpoint exactly what his behaviors were like, exactly what his thought processes were. He was not good at hiding anything, not his attitude and not murder. And don't you know he was ill when that lady traffic officer pulled him over and then almost immediately produced the relevant law? She pulled it up for him on her cell phone. Let me say this to you, my friend. I read where the corrections officers say he didn't do anything but watch TV

and watches every single thing about him. I know he can't stand you. Because again, you're smart, you're capable, and you are calling his number out every day. Every day. Hey, Toby Wilson, join me, forensic consultant at noslowforensic.com. Toby, can you ever really and truly clean a bloody crime scene? My experience over the years has been no.

I've been called into a lot of situations to search for blood after they suspect or can demonstrate that there was a cleanup and there's always stuff missed you either you know it's either under carpeting or it's through the cracks in the tile or it's under refrigerators cleaning up a crime scene and getting rid of blood even for professional services, they miss stuff. There's always something left behind. And FYI, everybody, Windex, don't cut it. When it comes to cleaning a crime, say, you know, Toby Wilson, I only pray that you are correct. We wait as justice unfolds.

Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.