Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Bryan Kohberger Stashes 'Momento' of Quadruple Stabbing Victim

Episode Date: April 14, 2023

The search of Bryan Kohberger's family home turned up an ID belonging to one of the Idaho student murders victims. Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, Sheryl McCollum joins Nancy Grace to weigh in on the report. Is this the state's 'smoking gun'? Why do murderers keep 'souvenirs?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Brian Koberger in the headlines again. As you will recall, Koberger charged in the murders of four beautiful University of Idaho students believed to have been asleep at the time of the attack. In the last hours, we learn that Koberger apparently kept a memento, a trophy of sorts, from one of his murder victims what we believe a student ID or driver's license was kept by Brian Koberger now the ID has been identified as being found in either Koberger's car or Koberger's family home, put inside a glove in a box. Now, there has been much ado regarding was it found in the glove compartment in his car or in a box in a glove in his parents' home. Either way,

it's a memento. It's a trophy from the quadruple murders. Joining me right now, Cheryl McCollum, founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute and star of a brand new hit series podcast, Zone 7. Cheryl, can you believe this guy? You know, Nancy, you and I talked early on about him having some type of trophy, some type of memento that he would keep. The fact that it's an ID tells me not only did he want it, he wanted it close to him.

That's something you could carry in your wallet, something you could put in your visor of your car and look at it. It's not big and it's protected. So the fact that an ID would have some type of covering to keep it where you've spilled something, it would maintain its integrity. That just tells me what it meant to him. Cheryl McCollum, do you know, you know how I scrapbook, right? Oh, yeah. And yeah, I know. I completely took over my husband's closet.

He's got room now for like one shirt and one sock because the rest of the whole closet are stacks and stacks of scrapbooks. And they're mostly photo albums with mementos stuck in there. Right now, I got behind. So I'm stuck on Christmas 2017. And it's all over the den. I haven't even made it up to Christmas Eve yet.

But that said, I was looking at the day, the morning. It was a Saturday morning. And see, I'm doing it right now. I was putting together the segment in the scrapbook about when the twins and I, and then David wandered in, decorated the Christmas tree. And I was remembering, because there was a picture of it John David was playing the piano while we were decorating and I made him stop and come over and help me decorate the piano is right by the Christmas tree

and I was just remembering that and we had Christmas music playing and it's one of the closest things that have ever come to a Hallmark moment at Christmastime. But that said, I couldn't help because this news came out as I'm working right in the middle of 2017 Christmas with the twins. And can't you just imagine Coburger with that ID? And you know it's one of the females.

Kelly, Gonsalves, Maddie, Logan. I think one of them, of course it could have been Zanna, but I think, well, obviously it was one of the girls. So I'll leave it at that. How many times he looked at that ID? Cheryl, what about this? Get this in your head. Remember his father was driving the Elantra at one time during the trek from Washington State University over 2,000 miles to the parents' home in the Poconos for, I guess it was Christmas vacation. And he had that ID with him because

whether it was found in the glove compartment of his Elantra or whether it was found in a glove, in a box, in his parents' home, he had to transport it. And how many times during that trip did he console himself or worse with that ID? It was a vital part of his post behavior. There's no doubt about that. And the fact that we know it was in the vehicle while his dad was there, he probably took some kind of twisted gratification in that as well. So if it was in the glove compartment, so to speak, the glove compartment was locked. So his dad couldn't maybe gain entry. and remember when they were stopped by law enforcement not once but twice what if that id was in his wallet at the time yeah wallet is a good

idea uh the whole reason people started thinking that this id and it could have been a student id it could have been a driver's license it could have been a library card it could have been a driver's license. It could have been a library card. It could have been any type of ID. It could have been a credit card without a picture on it. We don't know what it is yet, but a wallet would have been a good place to hide it. I think the idea of the glove compartment came from the fact that if you look at, I believe it's entry number 35 of the many, many lines in the search warrant return. It says, ID found in a glove in a box. It could have been a box of stuff he brought back from Washington State. It could have been a box that he hid, you know, in his parents' home. But just think about him going to the effort of putting it inside of a glove i was saying

earlier it reminds me of people that still hide things in their underwear or their sock drawer which i'm totally guilty about i still have in their uh locks of the twins hair when they would get their first haircuts and more and their teeth that the tooth fairy returned to me after she took them yeah in my underwear drawer like that's not an obvious place to look people hide jewelry and everything else in there but just think about the act of him let's just say hiding the id in a glove in a box transporting it across the country, and then having it at his parents' home. What about that?

And knowing the whole time it was there. And it's all about power and control over your victim or reliving the moment. Oh, it's definitely reliving. No question it's reliving. And the fact that it's in a glove, think about it. There was a glove left outside the scene. He might have worn gloves at one point. So the glove to me is a little twisted too.

That's what you're going to put it in. I mean, you could put it in a smaller box than inside another box. He doesn't do that. He chooses a glove, which I think is critical. And, you know, Nancy, you know, I've got an old cigar box, and it's one of those old wooden ones that's real pretty and all. And I have some stuff from when Walt and I were in high school. And to anybody else, it's junk, but not to me.

So, again, anybody that might have stumbled upon this that didn't know what had occurred, the glove would be meaningless. And I don't know what else might have been in that box, but it might have just looked like a junk drawer in your kitchen. Prime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know, the other day I was with Lucy. I forgot where we were, but she had the wrapper off of a drinking straw. And she sat there and turned it into a ring and put it on my ring finger

and we were getting out of the we had dinner wherever we were we were getting out and we I always try to gather up all the they trash the car it's insane it's constantly trashed because of the twins anyway I said let's gather up all this trash and get out. And she grabbed the little ring and said, here, throw this away. I'm like, are you kidding? I'm keeping this ring. I put it on my finger, and guess what? I did keep it. So it might look like junk to a lot of people, but it's something to us.

But I'm just thinking about the planning it took for him to take that I.D. out of the victim's home and then leave with it. That's very risky behavior to keep an I.D. And I made up a list of other killers that have kept things. All right. Listen to this. Ed Gein, who was, I started to say insane, but he was not legally insane. Ed Gein made masks with his victims' faces. Okay, there's this other guy, Ivan Milat. He would stalk his victims at campsites, then murder them, then bury them in the woods. But he would keep pieces of their camping equipment. I mean, just think, what if he used their camping equipment? Every time he would stir something in one of their pots and pans, he would remember that particular murder victim.

Alex Mangle, wait for it. When police were doing their search, they thought they found a wig. It was not a wig. It was one of the victim's scalps. And he kept it and he actually wore it when he snatched his next victim. We've got John George Hay actually kept his victim's dog. Really? He kept the victim's dog? Every time the dog would run to the door or come for a pet, he would think of his murder victim. I mean, it goes on and on and on. Robert Hanson kept victims jewelry.

John Christie kept bodies in his kitchen. One killer, Stanley Dean Baker, kept his victims bones, always the finger bones. What were you saying? Dahmer. I mean, he kept bodies and skulls. And genitals. He kept his victim's genitals.

I guess the penis and the testicles. Harvey Glattman photographed his victims after they were dead. And at one point, I think that they couldn't find one of the bodies, but they had the picture of the dead body. Dennis Rader, that's who I was thinking, kept copies of or the actual victims' driver's licenses. Much like what we're seeing right now. And we know there's some weird connection between Dahmer and BTK, excuse me, between Koberger and BTK, Dennis Rader. So what about the fact they may have copycat mementos? It would be, again, completely significant. And here's what it says

to me. Own your driver's license. I'm going to be able to remember not just your face, but an address. Other things about you that it's going to say on there, whether or not you're an organ donor, the color of your eyes, your weight, all of that is on there. So I'm capturing this moment in time forever. And again, I can keep it really close to me because it's small. When you're talking about masks and IDs and wigs and photographs, you're talking about a victim's face. It is critical to that killer. They want to remember what you looked like, what they fantasized about. The other folks, when you're talking about equipment and dogs, that is something you've touched. That's something that you love. That's something you took care of, and he took that from you.

So he's re-victimizing you again on a different level. Now, we've also got Ted Bundy who would keep victims' heads and then he would masturbate with the head. Now, that's something to pause and think about just for a moment there. Well, I can tell you all of these things that were kept were masturbated with. Every one of them. You know, when I talk to you, as I've said before, I

never know if I need a shrink or a drink. But since I'm a teetotaler, I'll have to go with a shrink, you know, after we start. Yeah, right. But again, when people say... A masturbation tool, actually. Yes.

When people say, Koberger, it wasn't a sexual crime, I always tell people, you don't know that. Pre- and post-behavior matters. What he thought of that scene is what matters, not what the general public thinks. You know another thing about him keeping a memento. And that is what it is. There's no reason for him to have one of these victims IDs, none at all, except to relive the moment. I wonder how he got it. Now, a lot of people believe Koeberger had been in the home before the murders took place. I don't know if I agree with that. I'm thinking about him fumbling around inside the home, the girl's home, and Ethan Chapin was also there that night. Did one of the victims have her ID laying outside the bed? A lot of people do that. Did they have it on the kitchen counter so they

could grab it in their car keys when they leave in the morning. You know, a lot of people do that. Did he just see it and grab it? Or did he fumble around in the dark looking for mementos? And if he took that, it makes me wonder, did he take anything else? Like some killers take the woman's underwear or they take jewelry or a photo. He could have other things that have not been identified yet as belonging to these victims, Cheryl. He could have other things that haven't been located. Like Israel Keys, we don't know that he has a hidden thing somewhere in a cachet in some bucket. We don't know.

But what we do know is what he took, again, to me, is one of the most significant things you can take. Because if you take underwear, that's not her face. That's not where she went to school. That's not an address. That's something that only you would know. What he took, once it's located, everybody's going to know. This is hers. This isn't, oh, was this underwear belonging to A, B, or C?

We may not know that. With this, we know. Another aspect of this, Cheryl McCollum, it's like a Rubik's Cube. You have to keep turning it and turning it and thinking about it. And this may never be part of the evidence at trial, but there's the additional psychological twist that he brings this memento of a quadruple murder and his fixation on at least one of these girls into his parents' home, right under their noses. They suspect nothing. They know nothing. They welcome him with open arms. And then right under their noses, he has a memento in their home of a quadruple murder.

And not just that, he went to their home after his car was identified. Like he knew they're getting close. They're looking at the car I drive. They are looking within eight miles of where I live for me. Now they put out a video. So now they're tracking my car quite possibly right back to my apartment complex. And not only did he keep it, he kept it in the same daggone car they're looking for and then transported it into mama's house. Like they're not going to be able to it into mama's house, like they're not going to be able to get a warrant for here. They're only going to be able to get a warrant for my apartment. Again, he doesn't understand how this thing really works. There were some

mistakes that he made that clearly tell me, let me just say this. Everybody's asked me, do you think he's killed before? Don't you think there's other victims everywhere? I don't know how there's other victims everywhere when he made the mistakes he did with this one. He would have been caught before. I mean, he used his own car. He used his own cell phone. He didn't have enough sense to really shut the whole thing down. He used his apartment to hide crap.

He used his mama's house to hide crap. I don't see this as a criminal genius that's gotten away. And he takes the memento. That's a huge blunder as far as I'm concerned. Huge blunder. And again, a pair of underwear, I couldn't put this belong to this victim for sure. But an ID, I can. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Now, you mentioned potential other cases. Police are currently, we've been told, looking at two other cases in Pennsylvania. Now, are they connected? Don't know.

Another thing that has come up, very, very curious, is potential communications between, well, I can't say if it's between Koberger and one of the female victims, but by Koberger as far back as 2021. Was he fixated on one of these girls before he even started his PhD program at WSU, Washington State University? Another issue we are learning about is potential demolition of the crime scene, the home where the four students were murdered. It was set to be demolished and then suddenly screeched to a halt. Cheryl McCollum, I do not think it should be demolished until after the trial and after the appellate courts confirm the affirm the conviction. And that could be for a long time but 100 we just saw alex murdoch's jury taken to the dog kennels where we know that maggie and paul were murdered we saw the

oj simpson jury want to go see the home where oj simpson at the time. I mean, if denied that opportunity, if it becomes integral or critical at the trial to the defense, that could be a big problem. Well, we already saw it when they tried to move everything out and give everything back to the parents. The defense was like, wait a minute, we have the right to look at this too and examine everything. You and I are firm believers that the jury not only has the right to, but should visit a crime scene. I don't think anything should be kept from a jury. You are making the decision whether somebody is going to lose their freedom. You should have access to everything. Or their life.

Correct. One more issue. I think the kibosh has been put on demolishing the house for now anyway. But that said, here is another monster that has reared its ugly head. The rumor of an internal affairs investigation on one of the cops. Don't know how involved they were in the Koberger case, but on some cop involved, we don't know if it's a cop, if it's a man or a woman, if it's a detective,

if it's a crime scene analyst, we don't know. But there is a report of an internal affairs investigation. You know what? That could skewer the whole thing. Look what happened in O.J. Simpson. Absolutely right. Do you know what the allegation is for the IA? I've heard rumors, but I'm not prepared to state it.

Understood. Well, here's the deal. It doesn't matter. It's going to be a black eye no matter what. And again, those things are, you know, they're made public and that can come in. The results of it can come in. Oh, yeah. It's called Brady versus Maryland.

That went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. And it was determined that anything exculpatory, which means it exculpates or the defendant or shows that they may not be guilty, has to be handed over by the state if they know about it to the defense and that could be anything from a witness saying that's not the guy I saw at the scene it could be a cop with an investigation going on an internal affairs investigation it could be anything that touches on the credibility of the state's case. Anything. So it has to be handed over. I mean, I would advise the state, if there's a way to do it, not to put the cop up at all. No. I mean, what do you think? We all remember that. You've got to tell the truth, and it should come from you first.

It should not be anything that somebody gets blindsided with. You know, it's going to be really difficult for the defense to explain away any fantastical tale they will come up with to explain why one of the victims' ID is with Coburger. How in the world can they explain that, much less Cheryl McCollum, when in combination with the totality of the evidence, and that's just the evidence that we know of right now. That's right, and they have more. We don't know how everything ties in from the apartment to Mama's house to his car,

but it is a plethora of information and evidence. And you've got his DNA inside that room on a knife sheath. You've got, that we know, we've got the phone pinging. We've got him having a traffic ticket in the same neighborhood. We've got the social media stuff that's going to come out. When the social media stuff comes out, it's going to blow your mind. This dude was obsessed with the third floor. And those two victims, in my opinion, are the target. The third floor has been the whole key to me from day one, including, again, the dog and the dog not being harmed. there's a ton of stuff that's going to make complete sense once it comes out just imagining coberger in his efforts to clean up

from the crime scene coming back to his apartment covered in blood covered in fiber possibly dog hairs there's no way he can get away from dog hairs because that dog had been all over that house. And no matter where he went in the home, he came in contact with the dog hairs. The extremes he went to to clean up, but yet after all that planning and all that imagining

and fantasizing about the murders, he still took a memento, one of the student IDs with him. You know, how many times do you think he has relived it behind bars? Coulda, woulda, shoulda. I can't believe I left without the sheath. I can't believe I turned my phone on halfway home from the crime scene. All the things he did wrong that are now coming back to bite him in the neck. Every day. He runs through it every day. And it probably is destroying his ego to the point that he's not okay anyway.

But this certainly is going to be something that he, I mean, he's not okay anyway, but this certainly is going to be something that, you know, he battles every day. And you know what I tell people when they say, well, you know, is there such thing as a perfect crown? Have you ever heard of a wedding that took a year to plan that didn't have something go wrong? And it may be a little thing. It may not be a big thing. It may not even be something your guest noticed, but you knew it. I don't know. I planned mine in four days and I thought it went perfectly. I know. And that's why the caveat was a year because if you do something quick, there's not as much that can go wrong and you don't have the expectation.

But if you plan for a year and you you got doves and rose petals and all that carrying on, something's going to happen. The cake's going to get knocked over. It's going to rain. One of your bridesmaids gets the flu. You forgot the ring. There's going to be something. I'm just telling you, the more you plan, the more that you're going to notice didn't go like you thought it was going to. And that's a happy thing. If you're planning a sinister, evil thing, there's a whole lot more that can go wrong. And this child to me does not look like he planned very well at all. I think he planned a lot, but he didn't do a good job of it. Now, what do you make of the fact that he may have been in contact or trying to contact or obsessed with in some way one of these girls as far back as 2021?

Because, you know, search warrants were delivered to Google, to Meta, Insta, Facebook, Tinder, the local bank. And of course, VZW and AT&T, they did a data dump from the cell phone tower of all the phones that had been used for about a half a mile around the hours surrounding the time of the murders. I mean, they have really gone on all out regarding forensic data as it relates to technical information like phone records, computer records. They're even trying to match up, I believe, credit card and bank card transactions that may overlap with Koberger's. Were they at the same restaurant? Did he follow them there? Did he watch them at the Mad Greek or wherever they were? There's going to be a lot more data, Cheryl McCollum. with them. I mean, that's something you and I talked about day two, that that's a great

possibility because you're talking about a generation that lived their life in real time. All this class up 10, 20 in the morning, you know, where she is at 10, 20 in the morning, you know, they're having a party. You know, that their sorority is having a formal, you know, where the formal is. They're posting pictures in 20 minutes. So these are not people that are hiding. His access to them was easy. He didn't even have to be a good stalker. They're making it easy.

So again, it would not surprise me, and this is something that, again, we said on your show repeatedly, they need to look at when he decided to go to school where he did for his PhD. Because you know, he could have gotten in at DePaul. He had already gotten his master's there, but he didn't. Absolutely. And he already knew the instructors and he already had a close relationship, which is only going to make your work easier. But no, he didn't want to do that. He went, and I want to know how many places he applied to. I bet it ain't but one or two. I'm telling you, he was ready to go there because he almost started stalking them immediately. He was at their home. He was at the restaurant. He was

on that main drag. We know it. Right now, we know that some sort of ID, driver's license, credit card, student ID, library card, could be anything belonging to one of the victims we believe found hidden inside a glove inside of a box. Either in Coburger's Elantra or in Coburger's family's home in the Poconos. We wait as the evidence unfolds. Goodbye, everybody.